Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Ti 2:7.

Thursday, November 19, 2020

Can you spot the differences?

Can you spot the differences?

#Spot_the_differences

I inquired:
Do you consider the sin that got Satan and his hosts CAST OUT of heaven to the earth (Rev 12), and the sin that got the angels that sinned CAST DOWN to hell and delivered into chains of darkness, reserved unto the great judgment day (2Pet 2:4, Jude 6) to be one and the same sin or are they two distinct and separate sins?

A response:
Based upon the texts given in the tread above I see no evidence in those texts to indicate two separate events or judgments.

I asked again to make sure:
So, you consider these two:
- the sin that got Satan and his hosts CAST OUT OF HEAVEN to the earth,  and 
- the sin that got the angels that sinned CAST DOWN TO HELL and delivered into chains of darkness, reserved unto the great judgment day,
to be describing the one and the same event and judgment?
They do sound very different to me.  Thank you.

It was firmly reaffirmed:
"Yes sir, they are the same. Just as there was an immediate consequence for Adam in that he was driven from the garden and a distant consequence in that he would die and be brought under the wrath of God ( but for his grace). In my simple mind, there seems to be a logical flow which is apparent in all the text mentioned above."

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Friends, we are all familiar with the game called "spot the differences."

Here is an example for you to exercise your mind a bit. Let me assure you that my sole intention is to cultivate skills in studying the Holy Scriptures; it is not to get anyone to agree with me. That's my least concern, but to assist you to study the Scriptures for yourself is my God-given duty.

That said, examine these two sets of Scriptures, if you have any interest.

Compare the Rev 12:9 (I quoted the 3-verse paragraph) with the twin passage of 2Pet 2:4/Jude 6.

Rev 12
7 ¶And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
NOTE: Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth.

2Pet 2
4¶For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Pay attention to who are involved, what happened, and what are the consequences, etc...

Have an enlightening time. Amen.

Sing F Lau
Eze 28 provides some interesting information on the fall of Satan and what happened to him:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering... in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will CAST THEE as profane OUT OF THE MOUNTAIN OF GOD: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I WILL CAST THEE TO THE GROUND, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I WILL BRING THEE TO THE ASHES UPON THE EARTH in the sight of all them that behold thee.
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p/s Those who insist that this passage speaks of the fall of Satan, I'm merely pointing out to you that he was cast out of heaven to the earth.

Adam
Can you explain how this refers to the fall of Satan? It seems to clearly refer to the king of Tyre.

[sing: Yes, of course, the king of Tyre could have been in Eden, the garden of God; he was the anointed the cherub too; he was also perfect in his ways from the day that he was created, till iniquity was found in him... Of course, it was possible.]

Sing F Lau
Whether it refers to the fall of Satan is not my point.
I'm just pretending to agree with those who insist that this speaks of the fall of Satan. If it does speak of the fall of Satan, THE HARD FACT remains, Satan was cast out of heaven onto the earth. Did you notice those words I highlighted in the UPPER CASE?

That was the point.

Even Jonathan reference Isaiah 14 passage to the fall of Satan.

"The first sin in the universe was pride – Satan’s pride (I Tim 3:6). His arrogant ambition was to be like the most high God (Is 14:12-14). And he was punished for it. How severely? He and his angels are reserved for eternal torment in hell forever (Is 14:15; Matt 25:41; II Pet 2:4; Rev 20:10). The devil’s great abilities cannot save him at all."

quoted from here: his recent daily commentary on Prov 16:5 https://www.facebook.com/ProverbsofSolomon/posts/2691470264233997

Having said that, various people are of different opinions.

Here is one: https://www.christianity.com/theology/theological-faq/how-did-lucifer-fall-and-become-satan-11557519.html

I'm not disputing their views.

I'm DISPUTING the plain and obvious STUPIDITY (lacking common sense) of equating the casting of Satan and his host out of heaven onto the earth with the casting of the angels that sinned into hell..... reserved for judgement.

Equating the two BLINDS them to see what is spoken of in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 and Gen 6.

Sing F Lau
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou CUT DOWN TO THE GROUND, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou SHALT BE brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that MADE THE EARTH to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

When Satan WAS CAST OUT of heaven and CUT DOWN TO THE GROUND, he was still full of pride and mischief on earth; he made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms...nevertheless he SHALT BE brought down to hell. This is ENTIRELY DISTINCT from the initial casting out of heaven to the earth... as distinct as the earth is from hell.
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p/s Those who insist that this passage speaks of the initial fall of Satan, I'm merely pointing out to you that he was cast out of heaven to the earth.

Adam
Doesn't this passage talk about the fall of the king of Babylon? How do you equate Lucifer to Satan? Satan is no where referenced in this passage.

Sing F Lau
Good question. Go and read some.

Adam Wells
I have read, state what you mean please

Sing F Lau
I'm answering those who insist the two passages speak of the rebellion of Satan (his initial sin?) and him being cast down to hell as a result. I'm showing the two passages say no such fables.

Adam
The passages in Eze 28 and Isa 14 have nothing to do with Satan. He is not there at all.

Rev 12 does not refer to the initial fall of Satan but rather a totally different event. I'm not following your point.

Sing F Lau
Which part of Rev 12 does not refer to the initial fall of Satan?
Kindly specify which totally different event?
Did you say that the initial sin of Satan caused him to be cast out of heaven into hell? If you did, show the Scriptures, please. Thanks.

Adam
No part of Rev 12 refers to the initial fall of Satan. I've no time at the moment to discuss what it does refer to.
The only scriptures I am aware of that refer to the initial fall of Satan are found in Jude and 2 Peter. Since you apply these passages to an event mentioned in Gen 6, what passages do you use for the initial fall of Satan?

Sing F Lau
Adam, one simple question, and I'm done.
When a mind is closed and made up, it wills not to see what is obvious to others.

As a result of the initial fall, was Satan and his host cast out of heaven and down to earth or were they cast down hell... and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment?

Is Satan even named in 2Pet2 and Jude 6 passages? Remember your eisegesis charge? 🙂 . Hallucination.

Adam
Question - John 3:16 Does world not really mean the whole world (earth)? Is the word world used to represent the whole of some world other than the earth? (This is a rhetorical question.) Why do you have trouble seeing that there are no literal chains?

Sing F Lau
I like your rhetorical question. What purpose does it serve? Different senses of the world and the difference between earth and hell with all the other things accompanying it, you want to explain it away with your rhetorical question? Then the earth is indeed the same as hell.

Do I have trouble seeing literal chains? Really? Why waste time with strawmen? 
You haven't answered my simple question even though you know so much...

As a result of the initial fall, was Satan and his host cast out of heaven and down to earth or were they cast down hell... and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment?

zzzzzzzzzz. Knocking off.

Sing F Lau
Adam @ "The passages in Eze 28 and Isa 14 have nothing to do with Satan. He is not there at all."
========

"The first sin in the universe was pride – Satan’s pride (I Tim 3:6). His arrogant ambition was to be like the most high God (Is 14:12-14). And he was punished for it. How severely? He and his angels are reserved for eternal torment in hell forever (Is 14:15; Matt 25:41; II Pet 2:4; Rev 20:10). The devil’s great abilities cannot save him at all."

quoted from here: a recent daily commentary on 16:5 https://www.facebook.com/ProverbsofSolomon/posts/2691470264233997

You may like to tell Jonathan your thought.

Adam
He knows what I believe, for he taught me. See his recent sermon from Isa 14. I'll leave you to it.

Sing F Lau
Adam, You said Isaiah 14 has nothing to do with Satan, I show you that Jonathan relates Isaiah 14 to Satan. He taught you the OPPOSITE of what you have stated! The rest is up to you.

Adam
You should study further... He used to teach foot-washing too!

Sing F Lau
Adam Wells, Thanks. I am studying all the time; a lot more to learn. You have probably arrived. Along the way, the gracious Lord has taught me a few things... one of these, there is a distinction between cast out of heaven unto the earth and cast into hell. He also taught me there is a distinction between hell and the lake of fire.

Initially posted here"
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215052505761545
November 18, 2019 
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Conclusion:
p/s: is it not such a simple matter?
The initial sin of Satan, pride, caused him and his angels to be cast out of heaven to the earth. 

Some of those fallen angels sinned in the manner stated in 2Pet and Jude and were cast in hell and reserved for judgment.

Why are sincere folks blind to the obvious differences? 
What has bewitched them? 

Take a look here on "angels that sinned"

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-angels-that-sinned-who-were-they.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-angels-that-sinned.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2020/11/original-sin-of-satan-and-angels-that.html


Take a look here for some exegesis on Genesis 6

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