May 15, 2012
The angels that sinned... who were they, what
happened, and when? Is it recorded anywhere in the Scriptures?
2Pet 2
4 For if God spared not the angels that
sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved
Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon
the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample
unto those that after should live ungodly;
Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their
first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting
chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Let's make some inquiries.
1. Concerning the angels that sinned
- what is the occasion referred to: the
initial falling of some of the innocent angels, or a separate incident
involving some fallen angels?
- what was the nature of their sin?
2. Concerning the angels that were involved
- were they in their state of innocence or in
their fallen state before they sinned?
- Were all such angels involved in this sin?
Why?
3. What is the connection between the angels
that sinned in verse 4 and the destruction of the old world in the next verse?
- What caused the world to become so wicked,
Gen 6:5, that universal destruction become necessary?
4. What does the destruction of Sodom and
Gomorrah have in common with the destruction of the old world?
- What happened in Sodom that called for its
obliteration, like that of the old world?
Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and
the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication,
and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the
vengeance of eternal fire."
Going after the strange flesh? What's that?
Does Gen 19:4 provide you the answer?
"But before they lay down, the men of
the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young,
all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto
him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto
us, that we may know them."
Adam Wells
Are you asserting that "strange
flesh" is men going after angels? How would they have known that the men
in Lot's home were angels? I always took it to mean men with men.
Sing F Lau
Who were they going after? Angels or angels
who have taken upon themselves REAL humanity? Any difference?
Read here Gen 19:4,5
"But before they lay down, the men of
the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young,
all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto
him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto
us, that we may know them."
"Where are the MEN which came in to thee
this night."
Those Sodomites saw them as real men.
Lot saw them as REAL men.
They were angels that HAD taken upon
themselves true humanity - by God's will, of course.
No, 'strange flesh' is a latter biblical
commentary of what happened there in Gen 19.
No, men with men happened universally... as
plainly stated in Rom 1. What happened in Gen 19 is unique, and singled out for
mention.
Adam Wells
If it is the latter Biblical commentary then
it still doesn't make sense. Hadn't it already been determined that Sodom would
be destroyed before the angels went to Lot's house? Wasn't the Lord punishing
them for fornication? What am I missing?
Sing F Lau
Does this info give some light?
'strange' - ἕτερος
heteros
'flesh' - σάρξ
sarx
Grady Clubb
There are so many takes on this that it gives
me a headache. Here is an example of one:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=7...
Delete or hide this
Homosexuality and “Strange Flesh”
APOLOGETICSPRESS.ORG
Grady Clubb
There are sooo many other sources but a
majority of them lean towards any immoral sexual act. whether it be homosexual,
adulterous, incest, bestiality, etc... They don't believe that this singles out
angels as being "Strange Flesh".
Sing F Lau
To me it makes perfect sense... all that
sexual perversion made PUBLIC and COLLECTIVE manifestation on that occasion.
Here read these words again: "But before
they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house
round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter..."
Read at the description of the sodomites
involves"
- men of the city...
- both young and old...
- all the people from every quarter.
And look the brazenness of their
perversity:
- they COMPASSED the house round...
Grady Clubb
I'm
dumbfounded that Lot was going to send his daughters out to them. To have your
daughter raped is the kind of thing that puts most fathers in a murderous rage.
Adam Wells
Sing... I still can't see your point. I think
the article that Grady posted articulates well the idea that I expressed
earlier.
Do you assert that many angels were on the
earth at that time in human flesh? If so, at what point did that cease?
Adam Wells
The story in Judges 19 comes to mind... where
the man of Ephraim stayed the night in Gibeah. There are many similarities
between the two accounts. The men of Gibeah also wanted to sleep with the man,
but he was no angel.
Sing F Lau
Don't
worry about other passages yet. Read the passages I have set before you, and
tell us what they are saying.
Let us handle those plain passages first...
and then handle the difficulties - whether real or imagined - later. Is that
ok?
Sing F Lau
Why isn't anybody interested in the passages
raised and the questions asked about them? Why don't you just tell us what those passages
say!
Adam Wells
You asked, "What happened in Sodom that
called for its obliteration, like that of the old world?"
Your question is a bit misleading for the
scripture says why Sodom was destroyed: And turning the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample
unto those that after should live ungodly.
Adam Wells
I don't have an answer for the angels... and
this is why I am looking at what you have to say that perhaps it might give me
some insights, however your logic just isn't adding up for me... I'll keep
trying to see.
Sing F Lau
Adam Wells @ You asked "What happened in
Sodom that called for its obliteration, like that of the old world?"
==========
The thoughts in 2Pet 2:4-6 are related. Verse
4 starts off with 'the angels that sinned...'
Angels sinned in Gen 6 by unlawfully taking
humanity upon themselves and intruded into the procreation process of man...
thus bringing the devastating effect of wickedness.
Gen 19 speaks again of that lust for the
unlawful relationship... from men towards those two angel-men... It brought
divine judgment.
Robert Cook Sr.
My dear brother Sing I do not see angels
mentioned in Gen 6? Dogs can't mate with fish nor angels with man, everything
according to it kind. I really believe that sin had gotten so openly common and
rampant that is why God destroyed the old world and Sodom and we are going that
way today as you and I communicate across thousands of miles and language
barriers. want to talk about Gen 11. The wrath of man shall praise God and the
remainder of wrath thou shalt restrain! God has lifted the restraint on sin and
we are going headlong into judgment day.
Sing F Lau
Lord, open his eyes!
Grady Clubb
One view on Genesis 6 that you are referring
to (2. that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair; and
they took for themselves wives of all whom they chose.) Is that the "Sons
of God" is referring to men who are serving the Lord and "Daughters
of men" is referring to women who do not serve or acknowledge God. It is
what we call a "Hebraism" or metaphors used by Hebrew culture of that
time period. Such as when the tree that Adam and Eve were not to eat of was
called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" it does not
simply mean knowledge of what is good and what is evil. It means ALL knowledge,
both good and evil and everything in between. Adam and Eve may or may not have
received all the knowledge in existence but at the very least they gained the
ability to acquire any knowledge they wanted without having to ask God. Another
example is "As far as the east is from the west". The directions of
East and West do not end so it is a Hebraism which means infinity. Scripture
does allow for you to believe that "the Sons of God" are angels but
it doesn't have as much support as the belief that "Sons of God" are
godly humans. The point is that I think God is trying to imprint into mankind
that there is a judgement for sin. Not that there is a worse judgement for
sinning against angels than there is against other humans. Sin is sin and the
wages of sin is death Rom. 6:23
Grady Clubb
Another point is that the bible does not
mention other Angels sinning again after the fall of Lucifer. If "The Sons
of God" means Angels then that means there was more sin among the Angels
after the war in heaven so then how can you ever trust God to send a
trustworthy Angel to minister if they are so easily corrupted. The other
alternative is that they are demons. However, that would mean that they are not
the "Sons of God". And finally, How much more devastation due to
wickedness can these supposed Angels bring to humanity that humanity didn't
already bring to ourselves. I am persuaded to believe that Genesis 6 is not
speaking about Angels that sinned by unlawfully taking humanity upon
themselves. I think it means "Sons of God" in the context of men who
love and serve God but sinned in taking "the Daughters of Men"
(Gentiles so to speak) as their wives.
Sing F Lau
Grady Clubb, tell what Jude 6 mean. Thanks.
Is that sinning referring to the fall of
Lucifer, or a separate and distinct sinning after the fall of Lucifer?
Be careful of your answer. Don't trap
yourself in open inconsistency!
Have some fun learning!
Grady Clubb
I had not really studied this subject in
great detail before. My point of view has generally come from a new testament
point of view, how things in the spirit world work now, and trying to make the
old testament fit. When I think about it now, the Old Testament really didn't
come about until God gave the law to Moses. So yes it is possible, even
probable that fallen Angels were allowed to do what they did (Marrying human
women) before God bound them up. We don't like the idea that angels have a sex
or can have sex with humans because we think "why can't they do that
today." God is a spirit. He is not a sex even though we refer to Him in
the masculine. He has perfect masculine qualities and perfect feminine
qualities and if we are neither married nor given in marriage in heaven does it
also mean we don't have sex organs any more? We don't really need them do we?
It gets confusing because if God bound the Angels up and made them unable to
have sexual relations with humans again, then what are demons? Would God allow
demons to do this again? Has it happened since Noah's flood? Are there other
fallen angels that didn't partake in that sin so they didn't get bound up or
did they all partake and get bound and demons are something else? But which is
the real interpretation and is it important? Does it really matter that I
firmly believe one or the other? Is this a subject that I can be undecided on
and still be saved? Since we are saved by grace I think it is not worth arguing
about. I do think there is something to be gained in studying this subject. If
anything I will gain more experience in HOW to study. This appears to be your
point of view on this subject. Jude writes, “And angels who did not keep their
own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds
under darkness for the judgment of the great day…” What makes this verse so
tricky is identifying just who these angels are. There are really only three
possibilities that could explain who these angels are. First let me outline the
three views on this passage, and then we will look at the biblical evidence.
After we have examined the biblical evidence I think we will be in a position
to make some conclusion.
The first view is that these are the angels
referred to in Genesis 6:1-4, and Jude is describing how they took women to be
their wives. Genesis 6:1-4 says,
Now it came about, when men began to multiply
on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God
saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for
themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not
strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall
be one hundred and twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days,
and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and
they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of
renown.
In this view the “sons of God” mentioned in
Genesis 6 are fallen angels who took human women to be their wives. Thus when
Jude said that the angels “did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their
proper abode” he was referring to this act.
The second view on this passage teaches that
Jude is not referring to Genesis 6 at all, but rather to the fall of angels in
Satan’s rebellion. Thus when Jude said that the angels “did not keep their own
domain, but abandoned their proper abode” he was referring to the rebellion of
Satan, and the fall of angels.
The third view that could be held on this
passage teaches that Jude viewed the story of the angels who had produced
children with women as a legend, and he was only using that legend as an
illustration. It would be like me using a story from a novel or a movie to
illustrate my point.
We have now seen the different views on this
passage, but what does the bible say? There is a lot of information that it
important to this passage, but I think that it can all be boiled down to a
handful of indicators.
Jude links the sin of the angels with the sin
of Sodom and Gomorrah in v. 7: “just as (ὡς) Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around
them, since they in the same way as these (τούτοις is a masculine plural
pronoun that is not referring to the feminine plural πόλεις but rather to the
masculine plural ἀγγέλους from v. 6) indulged in gross
immorality and went after strange flesh…”
Both Jude in this passage and Peter in both
of his epistles refer to imprisoned angels (2 Pt.2:4-10; 1 Pt 3:18-20). We know
that this imprisonment is not the direct result of the angelic fall because
Scripture tells us of fallen angels (demons) roaming the earth.
Both 2 Peter 2:4-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20 link
these imprisoned angels with the judgment of the ancient world during the time
of Noah (the Flood).
Grady Clubb
It would seem from the immediate context of
Jude 6 along with the two parallel texts from the NT that Jude is referring to
the account recorded in Genesis 6. This would mean that Genesis 6 is an account
of fallen angels engaged in immorality with human women. But will a close look
at Genesis 6 reveal that these were not angels or that Jude was only referring
to some ancient legend? Let’s find out.
The main interpretive issue in Genesis 6:1-4
is the meaning of the phrase “sons of God.” There is much debate over the
meaning of this phrase but as James Boice said, “so far as the biblical use of
the phrase ‘the sons of God’ is concerned, there is every reason to take it as
referring to angels.” (Boice, Volume 1: Creation and Fall Genesis 1-11, pg 307)
Boice was able to make this statement because this same phrase is used only
three other times in the OT (Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7), and all three times it is
clearly referring to angels (fallen or not). With this in mind, along with the
evidence from the NT, it is quite reasonable to hold the view that Genesis
6:1-4 is an account of fallen angels engaged in immorality with human women.
This would explain why Jude compared the rebellion of the angels with the sin
of Sodom and Gomorrah, it would explain why fallen angels are imprisoned, and
it would explain why Peter linked these imprisoned angels with the judgment of
the ancient world during the time of Noah.
To say that Jude was simply recounting an
ancient legend as an illustration seems to ignore the contexts of the passage;
this illustration is right in the middle of two OT illustrations. To say that
Jude was referring to the fall of angels and that Genesis is not even about angels
seems to ignore what other relevant passages teach. Consequently, we are left
with the view that these are the angels referred to in Genesis 6:1-4, and Jude
is describing how they had immoral relationships with women. There are some
people who would object to this based on Christ’s teaching in Matthew 22:30,
For in the resurrection they neither marry
nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
However, Christ said that the angels in
heaven were not given in marriage; he never said anything about the fallen
angels. I think that Christ’s words show us that angels are not supposed to be
given in marriage, not that is it impossible. In fact, the harsh punishment for
the angels who did have immoral relationships is evidence that the angels were
not supposed to be involved with women.
How exactly these relationships worked I do
not think we can know for certain. However, why Jude uses this account as an
illustration is perfectly clear.
b. The Judgment of God
The point of this passage is to demonstrate
God’s judgment on the rebellious. Remember, Jude is elaborating on v. 4 with
three different examples of God’s judgment on the rebellious. Here in v. 6 the
rebellious angels are the illustration. God cast them out of heaven to exist as
demons in the world; however, they did not keep their domain. Instead, they left
their proper place for immoral relationship with women. Because they did not
keep their own domain God is now punishing them by keeping them in eternal
bonds under darkness. Their current imprisonment will only be ended by a
permanent imprisonment when God finally judges all of creation.
In the same way as these angels the fake
Christians of v. 4 had rebelled against God. Just as the demons knew all about
God so to these fake Christians had been exposed to the faith (v. 3). But
instead of submitting to God they lived ungodly lives by perverting the grace
of God and denying the lordship of Christ (v. 4). Because the rebellion of the
fake Christians was like the rebellion of the angels the judgment that these
fake Christians would face would be like judgment the rebellious angels faced.
Would this be a fair representation of your
view on Jude 6, Genesis, and the belief that Angels became flesh and married
women? This post is probably so long that you won't even read it all. So to
save space I will just post a link to an opposing website. Though it is not
completely my point of view it does have some points worth considering. The
reality is I'm not even sure what my point of view is.
http://www.masterguitar.com/theology/Calvinism/28sons.htm
Sing F Lau
"The reality is I'm not even sure what
my point of view is."
Then why waste time writing such long
comment?
Fake Christians?
It is VERY costly to be any sort of
Christians in the first century.
This 'fake Christian' idea is a much latter
problem.
Grady Clubb
The point of writing it was to try to adopt
your point of view and see what I got right or wrong. Basically to see if these
are the right reasons you believe Angels married women. Do you think the other
article "Who are the Sons of God" in Gen 6, has any merit in
believing the "Sons of God" were men. Why weren't there any angels
marrying men? And do you think it is important enough to make other people feel
stupid about not believing the right thing?
Penny Karn
Sing, I love your questions! They really get
me studying :) In reference to your original post... that word angel there
means messenger of God... not necessarily a heavenly being.
This was a good scripture for me to read this
AM. I hope to continue later.
AS you read through the chapter... I think
Peter is comparing those who follow the Lord (angels???) to those who don't
(brute beast). I think both are children of God, but one is obeying through
love... and the other is following their natrual man.
Sing F Lau
Grady., did I make you feel stupid? If I do,
you are too sensitive to be around here.
I do make people to draw the NECESSARY
implications of their opinion that will make them stupid for entertaining such
opinions! That's is part of the learning process and working towards the truth.
Sing F Lau
It is NOT fallen angels engaging in
immorality with daughters of man.
Grady It is the fallen angels leaving their
own habitation in the spirit realm, entered int the human realm, by unlawfully
taking upon themselves humanity. As real men, they multiply themselves and
completely and absolute polluted and corrupted the whole human race.
Sing F Lau
Q. Is that sinning referring to the fall of
Lucifer, or a separate and distinct sinning after the fall of Lucifer?
Jude 6 "And the angels which kept not
their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Supposing the former is referred to... what
are the implication?
1. THEN ALL fallen angels, including Lucifer
himself, would have been reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day.
Is that true? If that be true, then there
would be no devils and demons around! Satan and many other fallen angels were
not involved in the sin mention above. Is that true?
The only alternative is a separate incident
where some of the angels were involved. And all the fallen angels that were
involved in the sin stated... that of keeping not their first estate, but left
their own habitation, God has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness
unto the judgment of the great day.
Many fallen angels are NOT in everlasting
chains under darkness! They roam about!
Penny Karn
Sing, if this is not off the subject... will
you explain to me how it is that Lucifer means Satan? I'm having trouble seeing
that in the text.
Robert Cook Sr.
Also, satan is in chains or restrained and
always has been he can only do what God allows him to do
Sing F Lau
Robert, Satan was chained (restrained) ONLY
at the coming of Christ, Rev 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old
serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and
shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no
more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be
loosed a little season.
================================
The angels that sinned... who were they, what happened, and when? Is it recorded anywhere in the Scriptures?
- who were they? They were some of the fallen angels.
- what happened? they left their own habitation, i.e. in the spirit realm, and entered the human realm, by unlawfully taking upon themselves humanity, and married the daughters of men, and so corrupted the world that it was necessary for the world to be destroyed.
- When did that happen? It's recorded in Gen 6.
================================
The angels that sinned... who were they, what happened, and when? Is it recorded anywhere in the Scriptures?
- who were they? They were some of the fallen angels.
- what happened? they left their own habitation, i.e. in the spirit realm, and entered the human realm, by unlawfully taking upon themselves humanity, and married the daughters of men, and so corrupted the world that it was necessary for the world to be destroyed.
- When did that happen? It's recorded in Gen 6.
Jude 6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
