Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Saturday, May 9, 2020

Did God Predetermine absolutely all events?



Initially posted here:
May 9, 2012, at 10:05 AM ·

One honest question:
Does the all-wise and powerful God need to predetermine ALL events (i.e absolute predestination) in order to remain sovereign and in control of ALL things? Give your thoughts. Thanks.

Johnny Davis
Who knows. If God wished, he could micro-manage everything, including how long a scratch by head with the number of hairs on it, that he has numbered. Then again, if he wished, everything could be up to chance, fate, or nothing. It's His creation.

Sing F Lau
A typical non-answer answer! Where did you learn to answer without answering???
Did the Lord predetermine what you wrote above?

Elder Keith Ellis
No, He does not and He did not. Though He has a perfect foreknowledge of EVERYTHING that will happen, His foreknowledge is NOT causative.

Predestination deals with "WHOM", and predetermination would consider "WHAT."

There are some things that God predetermined, such as Christ coming to the earth to redeem the elect and the things necessary to accomplish that end.
I think predetermination and predestination are different, aren't they?
I could be wrong, but that is my thinking on the issue.
  
Philip Blankenship
I agree with Bro Keith. The Bible plainly tells us that he predestinated his people, but then tells us things we need to do to live uprightly. If he is telling us to do them I'm sure he isn't making us do them. I do believe that certain events he will control, he says he will protect us and care for us but we are not robots that he controls our every move. Otherwise, we would have God as the cause of sin. If that was the case God would cease to be Holy. 
That is my thoughts.

Elder Keith Ellis
If God did predestine all the acts of men, to include evil, then all the admonitions to be obedient make no sense at all. Why would God punish me if I was only doing what he predestined me to do.

Elder Keith Ellis
Go easy on Johnny bro Sing. He is my special friend. :-)

Johnny Davis
All that I "know," I know from God. Nothing on my own. Yet, if that answer is not sufficient, I'll give you an opinion, one of those I THINK comments, that often are rejected. Natural events were set in motion by God, in the six days of creation, and the one day of rest. He has directly intervened, in the outcome of what some call fate, luck, or circumstance. One such time, was revealing His covenant to man, to correct the one error in His creation, caused by man. God is jealous. He expects to be the Only one worshipped. Idolatry is not allowed. He has intervened directly, with punishment and use of elements, told in many Bible stories, generally in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, on three occasions I can think of, where He revealed Himself: (1) at the transfiguration, and (2) at Jesus' baptism, and (3) at the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. And, in His Word, he has stated through His Son, that "the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man, availeth much." I THINK that means, that what would be fate, luck, or circumstance, is altered miraculously by His direct intervention. I have heard testimonies from other Christians, of miraculous circumstances to them. I consider his arms around by daughter in a traffic accident, where the truck rolled three times beginiing at 70 mph, smashed the top completely, and her being thrown, practically uninjured. An answer to prayers for safety. These are evidences of God's working within the earth time frame. Faith tells me that prayers were answered, and the absence of prayer may have provided other outcomes. That's the physical explanation to your question. As to the spiritual, predestination, of course God knows all, and other than sin, can remember all that he knows, and his knowledge of events is not limited to time. So spiritually, yes, predestination in the spiritual sense is an aspect of God's being, BUT, really.........who knows? If he knows, he can choose not to know.

Johnny Davis 
Then again, I do not believe creation, was God's plaything, set up to "see what happens" as some grand eternal outcome, to some grand game.

Elder Keith Ellis 
Johnny, exactly the brevity that helps you make your point.

Pamela Owens Neighbours 
No

Sing F Lau 
Johnny, you are my special friend too.
If only you would stick to the question raised, you 'know from God' comments might be helpful.

Marty-Sandy Smith
No, citing Jeremiah 7:31 and Jeremiah 19:5.

Sing F Lau
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Elder Keith Ellis 
Bro Marty, His foreknowledge would have seen it, right?

Elder Keith Ellis
There is an obvious difference between foreknowing something and embracing it in the heart.

David Kibler 
If God has predetermined everything that will happen, then Shakespeare's Jacque was right. "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." Was always brought up to believe that God gave us a free will so that we could discover for ourselves his majesty and Love and worship him by choice, not because we are predetermined or predestined to do.

Marty-Sandy Smith
I would agree that God knew about it completely before it happened, since He is all-knowing. But I interpret the term "foreknowledge" to mean "a love of a people prior to their creation" and not "a knowledge of an event before its occurrence".

Elder Keith Ellis
 Bro Marty, Since we are studying, please allow me to ask. If God did not have a foreknowledge of everything that would come to pass, then could there be something that He did not know that would take Him by surprise? Something that He would learn?

Sing F Lau
What do you say to this: 
God predetermined ALL EVENTS necessary for the eternal salvation of His elect. (Anyone who does not believe in unconditional election unto eternal salvation kindly withhold your comment. Thanks)

Sing F Lau
Kerry Culligan, glad you choose to continue the discussion here. My question: does God need to predetermine ALL events in order to remain absolutely sovereign?
[Kerry has deleted all his comments. He can't cope with the discussion]

Marty-Sandy Smith 
Keith, I do not think anything would ever take God by surprise, or that He would need to learn anything as God (Hebrews 5:8 is for further discussion) the omniscient One. I just think the Bible usage of the term "foreknowledge" is not the same as the popular usage of the word. It seems to me that the Bible usage is more like "fore-loved". And sometimes use of a word in a sense other than its scriptural sense may lead to misunderstanding, but using the scriptural sense helps the precision of communications.

Elder Keith Ellis
Understood bro Marty. Thanks.

Marty-Sandy Smith
It seems to me that God is aware of all events at all times, and is in control of all. But Jeremiah 7:31 says that God did not desire child sacrifice, and Jeremiah 19:5 says that God did not plan child sacrifice. All of the desire (heart) and plan (mind) for child sacrifice came from man.

Sing F Lau 
"God can't know or declare anything unless he makes it happen. " 
Demonstrate the truth of this statement, please.

Elder Keith Ellis
So, God knew that I would accept Him and He ordained me to eternal life on that basis?

Elder Keith Ellis
That’s not what I asked.

Sing F Lau 
An all-wise and powerful God is absolutely sovereign without the need to predetermine ALL things... or having the need to foreknow ALL things.

There is no inherent necessity. Also, the predetermination of all things violates the free agency.

How puny men love to put God in his shoes... how he wishes to be able to predetermine and have the foreknowledge of a few things!

Elder Keith Ellis
That’s hogwash Kerry.

Elder Keith Ellis 
No. In the sonship man is passive. All the elect will be regenerated at Gods timing and it is irresistible. In discipleship, man is active, and may or may not respond to a gospel call. Conversion may or may not result.

Marty-Sandy Smith
Let us test the statement, "God can't know or declare anything unless He makes it happen". God can certainly declare something to be confusion without making the confusion happen, or being the author of the confusion (I Corinthians 14:33). This would seem to me to be a valid counter-example against the quoted assertion. Similarly, He can know or declare an act to be sin without causing sin. To be aware of something prior to its happening, even if one has the power to stop it, is not the same as causing it.

Mark Thomas 
Let's see, I know about things that I did not cause. Does that mean I have more sovereignty and capacity than God?

Elder Keith Ellis 
I only would refer to myself as a traditional 5 point Calvinist for the sake of your understanding my doctrinal position. I am not a reformed Calvinist. I really prefer not to be called a Calvinist period. In fact, Calvin got his doctrine from a baptist.

Penny Karn
I may be way out there on this... but I've thought about it a lot. I do not believe God predetermines everything we do. But He does have a will for us, for our daily life... and if we seek His will, and follow it, we will be blessed with His spirit. And if we don't... we spiritually die... For there is a way that seemeth right to a man but the way thereof is death.

But God does set bounds. He wrote the law of physics and gravity and the algorithms that make the world go around. We can't make ourselves grow taller.... that was determined genetically at conception by the genes that came together. But we can alter other characteristics about our appearance as we choose.

I do not believe that just because God knows something is going to happen means that He causes it. Nor does it mean He is obligated to prevent it. God never promised to spare us from suffering or from terrible things. Nor does God compel us to return His love. The garden of Eden was paradise... but Satan was there... And Adam had a choice... it wasn't crammed down his throat.

I believe God could have created robots but He is glorified when praised from a humble and willing heart. That is His glory... When obedience comes from love and respectful fear. Jesus Christ willing laid His life down in obedience to God. His obedience was out of love. But if there is no option for disobedience.... then is it really obedience?

Penny Karn 
oops... Job 14 "Seeing his days [are] determined, the number of his months [are] with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; "

Mark Thomas
The causality of sin arises from sinners.

Mark Thomas
God made man good and very good. Man did not keep his first estate.

Elder Keith Ellis Kerry,
This is where sin began.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John3:8

Marty-Sandy Smith
I do not regard sin to be a "creation". Sin is by definition the transgression of God's law (I John 3:4) and thus antithetical to His direction in creation.

Elder Keith Ellis 
Does God cast out God Kerry? Did God create sin and then decide to destroy what He did?

Elder Keith Ellis 
You said God was the first cause of sin. John said Jesus was manifest to destroy the works of the devil, where sin began. 1 John 3:8 Is God divided against Himself?

Penny Karn 
He cannot deny Himself.... so how could He create sin... I agree with Marty-Sandy Smith about sin. It wasn't created. He made us subject to vanity but He also made us in HIs image. We don't have "free will" per se but we do have "free want".

Elder Keith Ellis
Please Kerry. No. He alone is sovereign. You can’t have two sovereigns.

God is not the author of sin. He created evil yes. But this is calamity and judgment, not immoral actions and abominations which He proclaims to detest.

If God caused sin as you suggest, then He would be unrighteous to punish anyone for dis-obeying since He is the first cause after all. (according to your logic)

Elder Keith Ellis
God's suffering will.

Elder Keith Ellis 
But don't charge God with being the author of sin, when the bible clearly says in 1 John3:8 that the devil is. Saying otherwise makes Him a house divided against Himself. Have you not read of God disdain for sin?

Penny Karn 
Interesting you should mention that... I have actually been studying that very scripture. Boy do I have a lot of questions about that!! But I guarantee ya.... that if that is what happened, Lucifer had the choice to obey or not to obey. God is not unjust!

Elder Keith Ellis 
Off to bed.

Elder Keith Ellis 
Chapter and verse for systematic theology please Kerry. I have everything I need with the Holy Spirit and KJT. Off to bed for real this time.

Penny Karn
Kerry, do I understand you to say that you believe God has predetermined every minute of every human life in every generation?

Penny Karn 
Well Ecc 9:11 says "... but time and chance happeneth to them all."

Penny Karn 
And 64 verses in the Bible says "take heed" 10 say "take heed lest" <

Penny Karn 
for the trinity: 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "

Sing F Lau
Kerry, Penny asked:
"Do I understand you to say that you believe God has predetermined every minute of every human life in every generation?"

She didn't ask: "Do I understand you to say that you believe God controls every minute of every human life in every generation?"

You give a non-answer: "God controls all of that Penny."

It brings to my question:

Does an all-wise and all-powerful God need to predetermine ALL THINGS in order to remain absolutely sovereign over all things?

Sing F Lau 
Kerry @ God knew first before you acted. So God preordained it. Simple logic.
============
That's your assertion, Kerry Culligan
May I ask a few questions, please.

1. So what is the logical order: "God knew first," "you acted" and "God preordained it"? 
2. Are ALL events, including all your acts, without exception, preordained by God?

Mary Gassaway O'Gwynn 
God is omniscient, omnipresent. But God is NOT a puppeteer.

Johnny Davis 
SIN is nothing, if anything, an anti-concept. It is imperfection. God is perfect. He created perfection. His creation was for man and woman, his greatest creation, to praise God for His majesty of creation. The original sin and all subsequent sin by humanity is glorification of self seeking more than what God created. Yet the prohibition from eating the fruit was not arbitrary. It did give Adam and Eve a new nature. They knew they were naked. They wanted more than God gave, and God knew they would. If he had not given them the possibility to try to be something they were not, then He would have just created another biped mammal with limited will, who would be no more able to praise the Creator, than a monkey.

Johnny Davis 
If Lucifer is an angel, or spiritual equivalent of evil, then he, and all other spiritual beings would be in the mind of God, including he and his followers revolt (probably wanting to take over God's spiritual throne). That would be before in spiritual time, the moment of creation, marking the beginning of physical time. I'll get off this stuff, if straying too far from the discussion. All spiritual beings, then have "free will," yet are allowed only what God allows (the story of Job illustrates this). Perhaps, our spiritual nature, was created, before, rather than when, our bodies were born. Does this tie to predestination and election and foreknowledge?

Johnny Davis 
@SIng. It is God's will, OBVIOUSLY, that this status page has lots of comments. And I know in my heart, that my tongue of evil to you, personally, has been forgiven by you and of course God. We truly love each other, as do all that have commented here. A great discussion. Later.

Sing F Lau 
Kerry Culligan, @ God knew, God preordained it, we acted.

What is there for God to know before He preordained something to happen? 
Do you mean God knew how you would act, and He preordained your act, and then in time you acted?

Sing F Lau 
Johnny, how do you know it is God's will that this status page has lots of comments? Do you mean to suggest that whatsoever happen is of God's will?

Marty-Sandy Smith
 Again I must agree with C. H. Cayce, who wrote a sentence to the effect of: "If God absolutely predestined every thing, both good and evil, then He predestined me to not believe the teaching of absolute predestination, for which I am very grateful."

Johnny Davis 
It would be God's will (not speaking for God, but in theory or abstract thought), that goodness is spread, by whatever means. In absolute contrast to Satan's will that evil be spread. This particular subject that you brought to our attention, yielded many responses, many meditations on pure thought, many prayers. All of that is good. And none is evil, that I can tell, especially, the lack of bickering (I'm guilty, raising my hand), as in some past discussions.

Robert Cook Sr.
This question is one that I have wrestled with for decades, and not worth dividing or getting in the flesh over. My conclusion is that if it comes to pass God either caused it or allowed it according to a purpose in which He will get glory to Himself. Duet 29:29 this is one of those secret things our minds are to finite to comprehend. I see Satan as a created being who fell of his own will and God allowed it for a purpose to get glory to Himself. The wrath of man shall praise God and the remainder of wrath He will restrain. this should tell any one God is not the author of mans wrath. We must remember God had an eternal purpose in Christ, for which I know praise and extol my great God and Saviour.

Robert Cook Sr. 
One more comment please I recently wanted to find a simple natural example of this question and have settled on our sun as it shines on earth from our perspective. wherever the sun shines darkness flees darkness only exists in the absence of light and in our final home there will be no darkness at all also in Him there is no darkness at all. God is love and cannot lie

Robert Cook Sr. 
And oh by the way I am not a Calvinist I am an Old school Baptist. Little John burned our brethren at the stake.

Charles Page 
Foreknowledge and predestination apply to the sin in the Garden of Eden but not to the murder of Abel. There was foresight by God but not foreknown and determined. And this in no way limits the sovereignty of God. He alone knows all events before they are done.

Johnny Davis
@Charles. Sin comes not from God, not even from Satan, but from man's own desires, lusts, and hatred. Sin and sin, Adam/Eve sinned, Cain sinned, all sin. What is the difference? God could, if he wished, foreknow everything about outcomes in His physical universe. I'm not sure I understand the concepts and meanings and distinctions of foreknowledge and predestination if they do not apply to everything spiritual in mankind. Help me out. Thanks.

Charles Page 
there is a dualism that should be avoided!

Jane Yue 
Yes. God needs to predetermine all events in order to remain absolutely sovereign, but he doesn't directly will them to happen.

Sing F Lau 
One who is absolutely sovereign DOES NOT NEED to predetermine ALL things!!!

Why does He need to predetermine ALL things? Is He afraid things will get out of his control? 
But how can things ever get out of control with an absolutely sovereign God?

God did predetermine many things... those events that are absolutely necessary for the eternal redemption of His people... for without His predetermination, those events will not come to pass. 

Terisa Yoder Simmons
 Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. It is who He is. God is sovereign. (2 Samuel 7:22; Isaiah 46:9-11)
God is omniscient (all-knowing). (Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)
God is unchanging or immutable. (Psalm 102:25-27; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8) 
God is self-sufficient and self-existent. (Exodus 3:13-14; Psalm 50:10-12; Colossians 1:16)
God is omnipresent (present everywhere). (Psalm 139:7-12)
God is omnipotent (all-powerful). (Genesis 18:14; Luke 18:27; Revelation 19:6)

Sing F Lau 
So, did God - who is sovereign, unchanging and immutable, omnipresent and omnipotent - predetermine all events?

Fabio Gardenal Inacio
God not NEEDS predetermine ALL things, but I don't know if God needs something. I feel He doesn't need nothing, but If my limited knowledge block my thoughts and I can't see the Divine Nature and I just talking about my rational possibilities of understanding it?

Well, God doesn't NEED, but if He made it as part of Your nature and I don't know how, this is enough to deny this sight of God's way of being? I really don't know.

PJ Walters
One Who is sovereign needs no thing.

Johnny Davis
I do not believe the child of God should fear Him. Does anyone here. In fact, the "fearful" is an abomination according to Revelation. Yet, I fear one thing. That is, sin, the trying to be more, or have more, than God has given (just as Adam and Eve). For me, that would be speaking of the nature of God, questioning His nature, anything that would ask why God would do, or has done, or is, anything. And that would include, is own predestination and foreknowledge, that He speaks of, himself. It is not within man's logic, or mine at least, to limit God, in any way. He will do as he wishes. At one time, in my spiritual journey, I did not have any knowledge of these concepts of God. Now, that I know something about them, as several on this status, I'm not about to say exactly what they are, why God would need anything, or anything of the sort. If others have no fear in doing so, so be it. Not me.

Johnny Davis
Does anyone here, think for one moment that the Israelites, the Canaanites, the Hebrew, would question God, of whom they respected so much, they would not utter His name.

Vicki Lloyd Raines
In the New Testament the "adversary" has many names, but "Lucifer" is not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, 1. Tim. 5:14, ), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "murderer" (John 8:44), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial. In Luke 10:18, John 12:31 and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; Ephes. 2:2) and the father of lies (John 8:44), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan, death came into this world, being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7–10),[9] it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.
Wasn't Lucifer a Babylonian king? 

Johnny Davis
@Sing. I do not have an answer to "everything that happens, is God's will." Nor do I believe, that creation of reality as man knows it, and man himself, was some elaborate grame of diety, to see who turns out good, who turns out bad, to reward the good, and burn forever, the bad. If you want my quess, regarding predestination and its effect on the end game for each individual, in that he forgives by by grace, then my guess (and if you call this babbling or conjecture - you asked, I can only answer as I've been told, since I don't know, and the answer is NOT clear in scripture for everyone to come to the same - that God's all knowing, all power, allows Him NOT to see the outcome of the events, in His physical world, if HE wishes. To power to see all, also gives the power, to not see some. But the Will of God, that I believe all our prayers should be at the focus, is His that His spiritual grace, be manifest to all, "not willing that ANY should perish, but that all have eternal life." So, we may pray for physical healing, a job to support our families, a wife or husband that He would have us to share our lives with, anything, in fact. Yet, if not in the Will of God, then the prayer is for naught in the first place. 

Johnny Davis 
I do not believe that God created evil. When he looked at His creation, He said "It is good." That is, perfect in EVERY way. Among His creations was man. Man was perfect. As long as He did not desire, more than what God gave him, which is symbolized by the fruit of the tree of life, eternal life to "be as us." Within man, was the nature, by means of self will, free will, whatever it be called, to take that which God did not allow. The devil, the author of all confusion, all imperfection, all lies, all evil, was PERHAPS a spiritual being, in the spiritual kingdom of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, that did rebel against God's absolute sovereignty. Hints of this possibility lie in scripture. And sure enough, upon see God's new reality creation, satan sent on attack, with lies, that countered God's truth ("ye shall NOT surely die - you will be as God"). That was appealing, to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life (all desires of man, not being tempted by God), to Eve, and "she did eat," she sinned, became the same evil as Satan, gave to her husband, and "he ate also." If God did not have the self will possibility, then man, would be no more of a creation endeavor, than Lassie, the dog. God did not create evil. Actually, He cannot be in the presence of evil. When his own son, displayed on the cross, the evil of other men, God forsook Him. The reconciliation of man to God, promised in the covenant, was completed, so that now the perfect relationship between God and man, returns. What was "good" in the original creation, became evil, by man, not by God. Satan, an evil spirit, had a great deal to do with it as well, but NOT God.

Johnny Davis
@Vicki. I see "Calvinist" mentioned. I don't even want to know what a Calvinist is, as the Arminian thing. Just another person's theology, perhaps, that some think they should follow, in their quest to know God and Christ fully. That should be an independent quest. Who knows? After 2,000 + years, someone might just come up with a new theology, and if so, I'll listen, understand and pray about elements of it, possibly incorporate them in my own through the Holy Spirit, and........... continue to follow Christ, as have all the other Christians have done, individually, in Christ.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, What you believe is 'Davism' - a body of beliefs embraced by  Johnny Davis!