May 9, 2012,
at 10:05 AM ·
One honest
question:
Does the
all-wise and powerful God need to predetermine ALL events (i.e absolute
predestination) in order to remain sovereign and in control of ALL things? Give
your thoughts. Thanks.
Johnny Davis
Who knows. If
God wished, he could micro-manage everything, including how long a scratch by
head with the number of hairs on it, that he has numbered. Then again, if he
wished, everything could be up to chance, fate, or nothing. It's His creation.
Sing F Lau
A typical
non-answer answer! Where did you learn to answer without answering???
Did the Lord
predetermine what you wrote above?
Elder Keith
Ellis
No, He does
not and He did not. Though He has a perfect foreknowledge of EVERYTHING that
will happen, His foreknowledge is NOT causative.
Predestination
deals with "WHOM", and predetermination would consider
"WHAT."
There are
some things that God predetermined, such as Christ coming to the earth to
redeem the elect and the things necessary to accomplish that end.
I think
predetermination and predestination are different, aren't they?
I could be
wrong, but that is my thinking on the issue.
Philip
Blankenship
I agree with
Bro Keith. The Bible plainly tells us that he predestinated his people, but
then tells us things we need to do to live uprightly. If he is telling us to do
them I'm sure he isn't making us do them. I do believe that certain events he
will control, he says he will protect us and care for us but we are not robots
that he controls our every move. Otherwise, we would have God as the cause of
sin. If that was the case God would cease to be Holy.
That is my
thoughts.
Elder Keith
Ellis
If God did
predestine all the acts of men, to include evil, then all the admonitions to be
obedient make no sense at all. Why would God punish me if I was only doing what
he predestined me to do.
Elder Keith
Ellis
Go easy on Johnny bro Sing. He is my special friend. :-)
Go easy on Johnny bro Sing. He is my special friend. :-)
Johnny Davis
All that I
"know," I know from God. Nothing on my own. Yet, if that answer is
not sufficient, I'll give you an opinion, one of those I THINK comments, that
often are rejected. Natural events were set in motion by God, in the six days
of creation, and the one day of rest. He has directly intervened, in the
outcome of what some call fate, luck, or circumstance. One such time, was
revealing His covenant to man, to correct the one error in His creation, caused
by man. God is jealous. He expects to be the Only one worshipped. Idolatry is
not allowed. He has intervened directly, with punishment and use of elements,
told in many Bible stories, generally in the Old Testament. In the New
Testament, on three occasions I can think of, where He revealed Himself: (1) at
the transfiguration, and (2) at Jesus' baptism, and (3) at the coming of the
Holy Spirit in Acts 2. And, in His Word, he has stated through His Son, that
"the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man, availeth much." I
THINK that means, that what would be fate, luck, or circumstance, is altered
miraculously by His direct intervention. I have heard testimonies from other
Christians, of miraculous circumstances to them. I consider his arms around by daughter
in a traffic accident, where the truck rolled three times beginiing at 70 mph,
smashed the top completely, and her being thrown, practically uninjured. An
answer to prayers for safety. These are evidences of God's working within the
earth time frame. Faith tells me that prayers were answered, and the absence of
prayer may have provided other outcomes. That's the physical explanation to
your question. As to the spiritual, predestination, of course God knows all,
and other than sin, can remember all that he knows, and his knowledge of events
is not limited to time. So spiritually, yes, predestination in the spiritual
sense is an aspect of God's being, BUT, really.........who knows? If he knows,
he can choose not to know.
Johnny Davis
Then again, I
do not believe creation, was God's plaything, set up to "see what
happens" as some grand eternal outcome, to some grand game.
Elder Keith
Ellis
Johnny,
exactly the brevity that helps you make your point.
Pamela Owens
Neighbours
No
Sing F Lau
Johnny, you
are my special friend too.
If only you
would stick to the question raised, you 'know from God' comments might be
helpful.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
No, citing
Jeremiah 7:31 and Jeremiah 19:5.
Sing F Lau
Jer 7:31 And
they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of
Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded
them not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 19:5 They
have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt
offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into
my mind:
Elder Keith
Ellis
Bro Marty,
His foreknowledge would have seen it, right?
Elder Keith
Ellis
There is an
obvious difference between foreknowing something and embracing it in the heart.
David Kibler
If God has
predetermined everything that will happen, then Shakespeare's Jacque was right.
"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."
Was always brought up to believe that God gave us a free will so that we could
discover for ourselves his majesty and Love and worship him by choice, not
because we are predetermined or predestined to do.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
I would agree
that God knew about it completely before it happened, since He is all-knowing.
But I interpret the term "foreknowledge" to mean "a love of a
people prior to their creation" and not "a knowledge of an event
before its occurrence".
Elder Keith
Ellis
Bro Marty,
Since we are studying, please allow me to ask. If God did not have a
foreknowledge of everything that would come to pass, then could there be
something that He did not know that would take Him by surprise? Something that
He would learn?
Sing F Lau
What do you
say to this:
God
predetermined ALL EVENTS necessary for the eternal salvation of His elect. (Anyone
who does not believe in unconditional election unto eternal salvation kindly
withhold your comment. Thanks)
Sing F Lau
Kerry
Culligan, glad you choose to continue the discussion here. My question: does
God need to predetermine ALL events in order to remain absolutely sovereign?
[Kerry has
deleted all his comments. He can't cope with the discussion]
Marty-Sandy
Smith
Keith, I do
not think anything would ever take God by surprise, or that He would need to
learn anything as God (Hebrews 5:8 is for further discussion) the omniscient
One. I just think the Bible usage of the term "foreknowledge" is not
the same as the popular usage of the word. It seems to me that the Bible usage
is more like "fore-loved". And sometimes use of a word in a sense
other than its scriptural sense may lead to misunderstanding, but using the
scriptural sense helps the precision of communications.
Elder Keith
Ellis
Understood
bro Marty. Thanks.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
It seems to
me that God is aware of all events at all times, and is in control of all. But
Jeremiah 7:31 says that God did not desire child sacrifice, and Jeremiah 19:5
says that God did not plan child sacrifice. All of the desire (heart) and plan
(mind) for child sacrifice came from man.
Sing F Lau
"God can't know or declare anything
unless he makes it happen. "
Demonstrate
the truth of this statement, please.
Elder Keith
Ellis
So, God knew
that I would accept Him and He ordained me to eternal life on that basis?
Elder Keith
Ellis
That’s not
what I asked.
Sing F Lau
An all-wise
and powerful God is absolutely sovereign without the need to predetermine ALL
things... or having the need to foreknow ALL things.
There is no
inherent necessity. Also, the predetermination of all things violates the free
agency.
How puny men
love to put God in his shoes... how he wishes to be able to predetermine and
have the foreknowledge of a few things!
Elder Keith
Ellis
That’s
hogwash Kerry.
Elder Keith
Ellis
No. In the
sonship man is passive. All the elect will be regenerated at Gods timing and it
is irresistible. In discipleship, man is active, and may or may not respond to
a gospel call. Conversion may or may not result.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
Let us test
the statement, "God can't know or declare anything unless He makes it
happen". God can certainly declare something to be confusion without
making the confusion happen, or being the author of the confusion (I
Corinthians 14:33). This would seem to me to be a valid counter-example against
the quoted assertion. Similarly, He can know or declare an act to be sin
without causing sin. To be aware of something prior to its happening, even if
one has the power to stop it, is not the same as causing it.
Mark Thomas
Let's see, I
know about things that I did not cause. Does that mean I have more sovereignty
and capacity than God?
Elder Keith
Ellis
I only would
refer to myself as a traditional 5 point Calvinist for the sake of your
understanding my doctrinal position. I am not a reformed Calvinist. I really
prefer not to be called a Calvinist period. In fact, Calvin got his doctrine
from a baptist.
Penny Karn
I may be way
out there on this... but I've thought about it a lot. I do not believe God
predetermines everything we do. But He does have a will for us, for our daily
life... and if we seek His will, and follow it, we will be blessed with His
spirit. And if we don't... we spiritually die... For there is a way that
seemeth right to a man but the way thereof is death.
But God does
set bounds. He wrote the law of physics and gravity and the algorithms that
make the world go around. We can't make ourselves grow taller.... that was
determined genetically at conception by the genes that came together. But we
can alter other characteristics about our appearance as we choose.
I do not
believe that just because God knows something is going to happen means that He
causes it. Nor does it mean He is obligated to prevent it. God never promised
to spare us from suffering or from terrible things. Nor does God compel us to
return His love. The garden of Eden was paradise... but Satan was there... And
Adam had a choice... it wasn't crammed down his throat.
I believe God
could have created robots but He is glorified when praised from a humble and
willing heart. That is His glory... When obedience comes from love and
respectful fear. Jesus Christ willing laid His life down in obedience to God.
His obedience was out of love. But if there is no option for disobedience....
then is it really obedience?
Penny Karn
oops... Job
14 "Seeing his days [are] determined, the number of his months [are] with
thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; "
Mark Thomas
The causality
of sin arises from sinners.
Mark Thomas
God made man
good and very good. Man did not keep his first estate.
Elder Keith
Ellis Kerry,
This is where
sin began.
He that
committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For
this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of
the devil. 1 John3:8
Marty-Sandy
Smith
I do not
regard sin to be a "creation". Sin is by definition the transgression
of God's law (I John 3:4) and thus antithetical to His direction in creation.
Elder Keith
Ellis
Does God cast
out God Kerry? Did God create sin and then decide to destroy what He did?
Elder Keith
Ellis
You said God
was the first cause of sin. John said Jesus was manifest to destroy the works
of the devil, where sin began. 1 John 3:8 Is God divided against Himself?
Penny Karn
He cannot
deny Himself.... so how could He create sin... I agree with Marty-Sandy Smith
about sin. It wasn't created. He made us subject to vanity but He also made us
in HIs image. We don't have "free will" per se but we do have
"free want".
Elder Keith
Ellis
Please Kerry.
No. He alone is sovereign. You can’t have two sovereigns.
God is not
the author of sin. He created evil yes. But this is calamity and judgment, not
immoral actions and abominations which He proclaims to detest.
If God caused
sin as you suggest, then He would be unrighteous to punish anyone for
dis-obeying since He is the first cause after all. (according to your logic)
Elder Keith
Ellis
God's
suffering will.
Elder Keith
Ellis
But don't
charge God with being the author of sin, when the bible clearly says in 1
John3:8 that the devil is. Saying otherwise makes Him a house divided against
Himself. Have you not read of God disdain for sin?
Penny Karn
Interesting
you should mention that... I have actually been studying that very scripture.
Boy do I have a lot of questions about that!! But I guarantee ya.... that if
that is what happened, Lucifer had the choice to obey or not to obey. God is
not unjust!
Elder Keith
Ellis
Off to bed.
Elder Keith
Ellis
Chapter and verse for systematic theology please Kerry. I have everything
I need with the Holy Spirit and KJT. Off to bed for real this time.
Penny Karn
Kerry, do I
understand you to say that you believe God has predetermined every minute of
every human life in every generation?
Penny Karn
Well Ecc 9:11
says "... but time and chance happeneth to them all."
Penny Karn
And 64 verses
in the Bible says "take heed" 10 say "take heed lest"
<
Penny Karn
for the
trinity: 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the
Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. "
Sing F Lau
Kerry, Penny
asked:
"Do I
understand you to say that you believe God has predetermined every minute of
every human life in every generation?"
She didn't
ask: "Do I understand you to say that you believe God controls every
minute of every human life in every generation?"
You give a
non-answer: "God controls all of that Penny."
It brings to
my question:
Does an
all-wise and all-powerful God need to predetermine ALL THINGS in order to
remain absolutely sovereign over all things?
Sing F Lau
Kerry @ God knew
first before you acted. So God preordained it. Simple logic.
============
That's your
assertion, Kerry Culligan
May I ask a
few questions, please.
1. So what is
the logical order: "God knew first," "you acted" and
"God preordained it"?
2. Are ALL
events, including all your acts, without exception, preordained by God?
Mary Gassaway
O'Gwynn
God is
omniscient, omnipresent. But God is NOT a puppeteer.
Johnny Davis
SIN is
nothing, if anything, an anti-concept. It is imperfection. God is perfect. He
created perfection. His creation was for man and woman, his greatest creation,
to praise God for His majesty of creation. The original sin and all subsequent
sin by humanity is glorification of self seeking more than what God created.
Yet the prohibition from eating the fruit was not arbitrary. It did give Adam
and Eve a new nature. They knew they were naked. They wanted more than God
gave, and God knew they would. If he had not given them the possibility to try
to be something they were not, then He would have just created another biped
mammal with limited will, who would be no more able to praise the Creator, than
a monkey.
Johnny Davis
If Lucifer is
an angel, or spiritual equivalent of evil, then he, and all other spiritual
beings would be in the mind of God, including he and his followers revolt
(probably wanting to take over God's spiritual throne). That would be before in
spiritual time, the moment of creation, marking the beginning of physical time.
I'll get off this stuff, if straying too far from the discussion. All spiritual
beings, then have "free will," yet are allowed only what God allows
(the story of Job illustrates this). Perhaps, our spiritual nature, was
created, before, rather than when, our bodies were born. Does this tie to
predestination and election and foreknowledge?
Johnny Davis
@SIng. It is
God's will, OBVIOUSLY, that this status page has lots of comments. And I know
in my heart, that my tongue of evil to you, personally, has been forgiven by
you and of course God. We truly love each other, as do all that have commented
here. A great discussion. Later.
Sing F Lau
Kerry
Culligan, @ God knew, God preordained it, we acted.
What is there
for God to know before He preordained something to happen?
Do you mean
God knew how you would act, and He preordained your act, and then in time you
acted?
Sing F Lau
Johnny, how
do you know it is God's will that this status page has lots of comments? Do you
mean to suggest that whatsoever happen is of God's will?
Marty-Sandy
Smith
Again I must
agree with C. H. Cayce, who wrote a sentence to the effect of: "If God
absolutely predestined every thing, both good and evil, then He predestined me
to not believe the teaching of absolute predestination, for which I am very
grateful."
Johnny Davis
It would be
God's will (not speaking for God, but in theory or abstract thought), that
goodness is spread, by whatever means. In absolute contrast to Satan's will
that evil be spread. This particular subject that you brought to our attention,
yielded many responses, many meditations on pure thought, many prayers. All of
that is good. And none is evil, that I can tell, especially, the lack of
bickering (I'm guilty, raising my hand), as in some past discussions.
Robert Cook
Sr.
This question
is one that I have wrestled with for decades, and not worth dividing or getting
in the flesh over. My conclusion is that if it comes to pass God either caused
it or allowed it according to a purpose in which He will get glory to Himself.
Duet 29:29 this is one of those secret things our minds are to finite to
comprehend. I see Satan as a created being who fell of his own will and God
allowed it for a purpose to get glory to Himself. The wrath of man shall praise
God and the remainder of wrath He will restrain. this should tell any one God
is not the author of mans wrath. We must remember God had an eternal purpose in
Christ, for which I know praise and extol my great God and Saviour.
Robert Cook
Sr.
One more
comment please I recently wanted to find a simple natural example of this
question and have settled on our sun as it shines on earth from our
perspective. wherever the sun shines darkness flees darkness only exists in the
absence of light and in our final home there will be no darkness at all also in
Him there is no darkness at all. God is love and cannot lie
Robert Cook
Sr.
And oh by the
way I am not a Calvinist I am an Old school Baptist. Little John burned our
brethren at the stake.
Charles Page
Foreknowledge
and predestination apply to the sin in the Garden of Eden but not to the murder
of Abel. There was foresight by God but not foreknown and determined. And this
in no way limits the sovereignty of God. He alone knows all events before they
are done.
Johnny Davis
@Charles. Sin
comes not from God, not even from Satan, but from man's own desires, lusts, and
hatred. Sin and sin, Adam/Eve sinned, Cain sinned, all sin. What is the
difference? God could, if he wished, foreknow everything about outcomes in His
physical universe. I'm not sure I understand the concepts and meanings and
distinctions of foreknowledge and predestination if they do not apply to
everything spiritual in mankind. Help me out. Thanks.
Charles Page
there is a
dualism that should be avoided!
Jane Yue
Yes. God
needs to predetermine all events in order to remain absolutely sovereign, but
he doesn't directly will them to happen.
Sing F Lau
One who is
absolutely sovereign DOES NOT NEED to predetermine ALL things!!!
Why does He
need to predetermine ALL things? Is He afraid things will get out of his
control?
But how can
things ever get out of control with an absolutely sovereign God?
God did
predetermine many things... those events that are absolutely necessary for the
eternal redemption of His people... for without His predetermination, those
events will not come to pass.
Terisa Yoder
Simmons
Pro 16:33 The
lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. It is who He
is. God is sovereign. (2 Samuel
7:22; Isaiah 46:9-11)
God is omniscient (all-knowing). (Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)
God is omniscient (all-knowing). (Psalm 139:2-6; Isaiah 40:13-14)
God is
unchanging or immutable. (Psalm
102:25-27; Hebrews 1:10-12; 13:8)
God is self-sufficient and self-existent. (Exodus
3:13-14; Psalm 50:10-12; Colossians 1:16)
God is
omnipresent (present everywhere). (Psalm
139:7-12)
God is
omnipotent (all-powerful). (Genesis
18:14; Luke 18:27; Revelation 19:6)
Sing F Lau
So, did God -
who is sovereign, unchanging and immutable, omnipresent and omnipotent - predetermine
all events?
Fabio
Gardenal Inacio
God not NEEDS
predetermine ALL things, but I don't know if God needs something. I feel He
doesn't need nothing, but If my limited knowledge block my thoughts and I can't
see the Divine Nature and I just talking about my rational possibilities of
understanding it?
Well, God
doesn't NEED, but if He made it as part of Your nature and I don't know how,
this is enough to deny this sight of God's way of being? I really don't know.
PJ Walters
One Who is
sovereign needs no thing.
Johnny Davis
I do not
believe the child of God should fear Him. Does anyone here. In fact, the
"fearful" is an abomination according to Revelation. Yet, I fear one
thing. That is, sin, the trying to be more, or have more, than God has given
(just as Adam and Eve). For me, that would be speaking of the nature of God,
questioning His nature, anything that would ask why God would do, or has done,
or is, anything. And that would include, is own predestination and foreknowledge,
that He speaks of, himself. It is not within man's logic, or mine at least, to
limit God, in any way. He will do as he wishes. At one time, in my spiritual
journey, I did not have any knowledge of these concepts of God. Now, that I
know something about them, as several on this status, I'm not about to say
exactly what they are, why God would need anything, or anything of the sort. If
others have no fear in doing so, so be it. Not me.
Johnny Davis
Does anyone
here, think for one moment that the Israelites, the Canaanites, the Hebrew,
would question God, of whom they respected so much, they would not utter His
name.
Vicki Lloyd
Raines
In the New
Testament the "adversary" has many names, but "Lucifer" is
not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15;
Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter
5:8, 1. Tim. 5:14, ), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "murderer"
(John 8:44), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev.
20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24),
and Belial. In Luke 10:18, John 12:31 and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is
mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts
5:3; Ephes. 2:2) and the father of lies (John 8:44), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor.
11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan, death came into this world, being ever the
tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus
(Matt. 4). However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan
fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7–10),[9] it
nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.
Wasn't
Lucifer a Babylonian king?
Johnny Davis
@Sing. I do
not have an answer to "everything that happens, is God's will." Nor
do I believe, that creation of reality as man knows it, and man himself, was
some elaborate grame of diety, to see who turns out good, who turns out bad, to
reward the good, and burn forever, the bad. If you want my quess, regarding
predestination and its effect on the end game for each individual, in that he
forgives by by grace, then my guess (and if you call this babbling or
conjecture - you asked, I can only answer as I've been told, since I don't
know, and the answer is NOT clear in scripture for everyone to come to the same
- that God's all knowing, all power, allows Him NOT to see the outcome of the
events, in His physical world, if HE wishes. To power to see all, also gives
the power, to not see some. But the Will of God, that I believe all our prayers
should be at the focus, is His that His spiritual grace, be manifest to all,
"not willing that ANY should perish, but that all have eternal life."
So, we may pray for physical healing, a job to support our families, a wife or
husband that He would have us to share our lives with, anything, in fact. Yet,
if not in the Will of God, then the prayer is for naught in the first place.
Johnny Davis
I do not
believe that God created evil. When he looked at His creation, He said "It
is good." That is, perfect in EVERY way. Among His creations was man. Man
was perfect. As long as He did not desire, more than what God gave him, which
is symbolized by the fruit of the tree of life, eternal life to "be as
us." Within man, was the nature, by means of self will, free will,
whatever it be called, to take that which God did not allow. The devil, the
author of all confusion, all imperfection, all lies, all evil, was PERHAPS a
spiritual being, in the spiritual kingdom of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit,
that did rebel against God's absolute sovereignty. Hints of this possibility
lie in scripture. And sure enough, upon see God's new reality creation, satan
sent on attack, with lies, that countered God's truth ("ye shall NOT
surely die - you will be as God"). That was appealing, to the lust of the
flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life (all desires of man, not
being tempted by God), to Eve, and "she did eat," she sinned, became
the same evil as Satan, gave to her husband, and "he ate also." If
God did not have the self will possibility, then man, would be no more of a
creation endeavor, than Lassie, the dog. God did not create evil. Actually, He
cannot be in the presence of evil. When his own son, displayed on the cross,
the evil of other men, God forsook Him. The reconciliation of man to God,
promised in the covenant, was completed, so that now the perfect relationship
between God and man, returns. What was "good" in the original creation,
became evil, by man, not by God. Satan, an evil spirit, had a great deal to do
with it as well, but NOT God.
Johnny Davis
@Vicki. I see
"Calvinist" mentioned. I don't even want to know what a Calvinist is,
as the Arminian thing. Just another person's theology, perhaps, that some think
they should follow, in their quest to know God and Christ fully. That should be
an independent quest. Who knows? After 2,000 + years, someone might just come
up with a new theology, and if so, I'll listen, understand and pray about
elements of it, possibly incorporate them in my own through the Holy Spirit,
and........... continue to follow Christ, as have all the other Christians have
done, individually, in Christ.
Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis,
What you believe is 'Davism' - a body of beliefs embraced by Johnny Davis!
