Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Thursday, April 28, 2011

What meaneth this reformed shibboleth?

What's the matter with you, sir?

We hear this reformed shibboleth so often: "Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, Scripture Alone, all for the Glory of God Alone."

What do they actually mean? What is by grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone, by Scripture alone...? What is that one thing that is by those various things alone?

Surely one same thing CANNOT be by so many ALONE in so many ways in the same sense! Common sense tells us that the word ALONE implies EXCLUSIVITY.

Tuesday 26th April at 10:55pm

Sing F Lau
I believe each ALONE declares exclusivity in its own unique context and sense.

"Grace alone" speaks of the manner that eternal salvation is bestowed upon each elect. God applies that eternal redemption FREELY, the recipient is completely passive, being ...dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of meeting NO condition whatsoever.

"Christ alone" speak of the basis of that eternal salvation; for it is by Christ's work of redemption alone that secured eternal redemption for those given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world.

"Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15).

Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspect of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidences a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.

"Scripture alone" speaks of the SOLE authority of Scriptures in declaring what we are to believe (doctrines) and to practice (conduct). That is to say, don't quote this reformer or that deformer, please! Appeal to Scriptures ALONE - prove and demonstrate your belief and practices from it ALONE, rightly divided, of course! Scriptures is not the FINAL authority. It is the ONLY authority.

When the four ALONEs are understood in these exact way alone, is ALL GLORY to God alone... none to the preachers, and none to the saved what so ever. Any thing less, God's glory is robbed and usurped.

Eternal salvation is indeed by God's free and sovereign grace.
God purposed eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
Christ secured eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
The Spirit applies eternal redemption to each elect by Himself;
- all these WITHOUT any aid or assistance or consent or cooperation of any man.

THEN and ONLY THEN, a man is enabled to respond to the gospel call... which brings temporal salvation to God's children (those whom God has applied eternal redemption by His FREE GRACE.)

That is not to say that God has ordained the gospel ministry as the means to bring temporal salvation to those whom He Himself, by His free and sovereign grace, has bestowed eternal salvation.

It is eternal salvation already bestowed by God's free grace that enables a man to believe the gospel for his temporal salvation from lies and falsehood and superstitions, etc.

The eternal salvation that enables a man to believe, and the temporal salvation (pertaining to this temporal life only) that comes from believing the gospel are TWO DIFFERENT and DISTINCT salvations.

Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Shibboleth and platitudes father confusion and delusion.

Morrow
Wow Sing. . . You are soooo sound. And smart too. I am really impressed with you.

Thomas
Real impressive comment MM. Thank you for showing us your heart.

Lim
Pastor Sing, that sums it out the correct understanding in the terms of grace, faith, scripture and Christ alone in salvation. if everyone follows this, they will understand the sovereignty of God in salvation and we have nothing to do in eternal salvation, only conversion we can get saved in truth, not entering God's kingdom.

Morrow
Hey Mark..You are right. I revealed my heart which at times is frustrated with the neat bow Sing puts on everything. In reality the doctrine is not as cut and dried...and I do mean dried...as he and his admirers make it. I apologize for allowing the frustration to show. I hope you will forgive me if I made you uncomfortable.

Thomas
Knowing where one stands has never made me uncomfortable. You owe me no apology for your ongoing dry sarcasm. Neat bows and clear distinctions give joy to the heart of those seeking truth. It is regretable that your heart cannot rejoice in it.

Sing F Lau
Mighty Morrow and I are friends... he digs at me and I dig at him... but hollow sarcasm is indeed sick!

He is always unhappy when what I said EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.

He is NOT contented with that glorious honor that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!

He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of Hod's elect.

I have never seen a midwife who fume and rage when she is told that she had no role in the conception of the life that she helped delivered!

Thomas
It is sad indeed when folks think OMNIPOTENT GOD needs a surrogate to help Him Father His children.

Sing F Lau
Mysteriously, there are two Michael, and what a signal example of the grace of God.

One is a hardened veteran soldier in the Lord's service as a gospel minister and an adjunct professor of some sort.

The other is a young man (a bachelor in his mid 20s) and a relatively new convert to the gospel of Jesus Christ from his previous hopeless and graceless religion.

One Michael I have never met but have interacted with for around 10 over years, and he hasn't come any closer to appreciate the UN-adulterated grace of God in the eternal salvation of God's own people.

The younger Michael I have met barely a dozen times, and his eyes dazzle when he heard of the free grace of God in saving him with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.

What a mystery of grace! I stand amazed at the free grace of God.

And lo! "Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

Thomas
Amen and Amen.

Sing F Lau
‎"... that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,"

Just in case some woolly heads think that the wise and prudent are those dead in trespasses and sins, let me preempt this by reminding them that God wastes no move.

Those dead ...in trespasses and sins are already utterly and completely incapable of discerning the things of the Spirit of God, and to say that God needs to hide spiritual things from such is to impute foolishness to God... schizophrenic men do waste moves, God does not!

But them learned and titled folks seminarians, i.e. the wise and prudent in their OWN EYES, such children of God among them are capable to receiving such spiritual things... but because of their own wisdom... God keep them in ignorance of such obvious and plain truth... to shame them!

Page
You leave us with no loop holes to disagree with. If I were a moderate Calvinist I would just have to be silent!!!
But I agree with you fully!

Morrow
"He is always unhappy when what I said EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.

He is NOT contented with that glorious honor that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!

He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of Hod's elect."

I quoted you above Sing to highlight the flaws of our discussion. I am never unhappy when God does things without my input. I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has pro...duced entirely without my help. I do give my God all the glory for anyone's salvation...especially my own. I do not fume when I am denied a role in the eternal salvation of God's elect. Every person who has ever been saved in which i was allowed to be the mid-wife (as you say) I give God all the glory and praise for their salvation. But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it. You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.

Page
Faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. - true! the regenerate and preacher merit God. Page ‎'s favor and their temporal salvation is enhanced!

Morrow
Neither when I preach the gospel and see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do i congratulate myself and and think how meritorious my work was...nor do I believe someone who really knows Christ will believe that their faith merited God's grace. The problem is you build this monstrous red herring ...call him a moderate Calvinist and began to beat all Calvinist who do not agree with you in every point as if they were all your red herring. It doesn't work with me. If there was ever a touch of humility from you it might be different. If there was a disavowing of omniscience....if you could ever admit that you could be wrong on a point here and there there would be less frustration with you. But I haven't seen that yet. No matter what the conversation is...if someone disagrees with you they are wooley headed, they want glory for themselves, they are to be pitied. On and on it goes until it becomes rather obvious and sickening.

Page
‎"..see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do i congratulate myself and and think how meritorious my work was..."

You have low esteem and false humility - when someone is born again under your preaching you should be proud of ...yourself. Perhaps without you they would be lost and on their way to hell. You are an agent in regeneration! You should be exalted highly for your meritorous work. Even God maintains a dependancy on you and without you He is not sovereign!

Morrow
Just your twisted view Charles ....just your twisted view.
Charles..I believe God is able and would be just as glorified if He saved every elect person without me...period. But I am thankful that He has called me to preach and teach so that, by His grace,and in pure mercy to me, He would let me be a co-laborer with Christ You seem to thrive on twisting other people's words.

Morrow
Have you ever seen anyone fall under conviction and come to Christ? Do you know anything at all about experiential salvation?

Sing F Lau
Morrow, fuming and raving aside, which part of my explanation on the alones that you are not happy with... that is wrong in your sight?

What did I write that drove you so mad that you burst out in such dry sarcasm? I am just puzzled?

I don't want to remain in error... so please teach me.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "I am never unhappy when God does things without my input."

You are never unhappy??? You have always insisted that your preaching is NECESSARY to regeneration! UNLESS you have been converted to gospel conversion at last! You have insisted that your input of preaching is needed for the divine work of regeneration!

Morrow @ "I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has produced entirely without my help."

So, are you are admitting that God regenerates His elect people WITHOUT your input of preaching as the means, I.E. without your help? Have you abandoned gospel regeneration so suddenly?

Are you now seeing the truth that regeneration is in the realm of ETERNAL salvation, and not in the realm of temporal salvation, therefore OUTSIDE the scope and effect of your ministry?

In eternal salvation, God DOES NOT need your help at all. That way, the eternal salvation of every elect is certain and guaranteed. HOWEVER, ministers like you have been appointed as the means to bring temporal salvation to God's children.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it."
=======

This statement indicates that you are as confused as ever concerning the distinction between eternal salvation without means and temporal salvation with means.

This statement also indicates that you have not even understood me. Your "but contrary to you" is a poor and pathetic misunderstanding of want I have said.

Eternal salvation by God's free grace alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.

Temporal salvation by God's appointed means alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.

But you have mixed the two - pure grace with appointed work. This mixture demeans and adulterates free grace and rob God of His glory; and magnifies and gives man a role in the eternal salvation of man.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.
=======

Sir Morrow, preaching is work... work appointed by God for you. Morrow sir, believing is work... a work appointed and expected of God's children!

John 6:
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation don't come out of thin air!

Sing F Lau
Morrow, your example of going to the doctor is a perfect illustration to prove my point, and manifests your basic confusion..

If you are sick and go to the doctor... presupposes that you have been raised from the dead by divine power, i.e. saved with eternal salvation by God's freeeeeeeee grace. Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor has NOTHING to do with you being quickened from your state of deadness, BUT the effects and evidences of that quickening by God's free grace.

Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor will bring temporal salvation to you... bring something good to your WELL BEING... It has nothing to do with your BEING as a child of God, which is entirely by free grace!

Young Michael understood all these without difficulties.... Grace indeed!

Morrow
We are illustrating two different things. I am talking about what constitutes "merit." You want to change the subject and apply the illustration in a way that I was not speaking of. It is a way to argue your point but legitimately. It is intentionally missing my point to make your own.

Sing F Lau
Doctor, you are the one who introduced the subject of merit, and I said i would leave that subject to you and your folks to debate. I am dealing with the issue that WORKS are involved in experiencing temporal salvation. And your work of going to the doctor is necessary to experience the temporal salvation of being healed of your sickness. And because you are proven wrong again, you say that I intentionally miss your point.

Morrow
You say: "And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation don't come out of thin air!"

My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
Morrow
Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to each other. And in many other places as well.

Morrow
You said: ""Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15)."

You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.

Morrow
You said: "Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His... justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspect of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidences a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace."

IS THAT WHAT THE WORD IMPUTED MEANS?

Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God.

So there are all kinds of places we disagree here but I don't expect you to admit your mistakes...oh well. See you later.

Hart
Dr. Morrow, of all places, do you think a dirtless baseball diamond is uncouth grounds for spittle? Parkview Field has opportunities for non-union workers ready to make plenty concessions. Hope to see you you soon! Thanks

Morrow
Richard, You have offered to help me find a new job several times. There are many unemployed folks out there. Maybe you should set up an agency :), since it is an interest you have. But you are barking up the wrong tree with me. You see......God spoke to me...called me...about 45 year ago...to preach His Gospel. I can't, nor do I desire, to do anything else. But keep trying...surely you can drum up some interest in your new business some where...Maybe Sing or Charles?

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
==============

Dr Morrow, this is where you are ENTIRELY WRONG.
Without imputed righteousness, a man is STILL in a condemned unjustified man, dead in trespasses and s...in. Such a man is incapable of believing.

This is your chief error. There is no accounting of righteousness in Genesis 15. If you insist that there is accounting of righteousness to Abraham in Gen 15, then you are insisting that Abraham was still an UN-JUSTIFIED, a man still under condemnation before that occasion, i.e. in Gen 11-14.

Doctor, go read again Gen 11-14, and see whether you are reading a man who was already justified by free grace in Ur when God effectually called him (and accounted Christ's righteousness to him) or a man still under condemnation UNTIL he believed in Gen 15.

Do it, Doctor!

You see, Doctor, you just refuse, or are INCAPABLE, of distinguishing the Legal justification applied to an elect personally by God's free grace where Christ's righteousness is accounted to a condemned man, and the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith where the believing act of God's child is accounted to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state.

Accounting Christ's righteousness to a condemned man, and accounting the believing act to the believer are TWO COMPLETELY different things. Don't you even begin to see this simple and obvious facts? Or are you really so obtuse?

Did I not say that distinction is the essence of sound theology???

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
=========
Good question doctor! I hope you didn't ask it rhetorically!

You insist that eternal salvation WILL ALWAYS inevitably result in temporal s...alvation... based on the notion that all that receive eternal salvation by the free grace of God will also be reached with the gospel ministry, and thus receive and experience the temporal salvation.

Since temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon means, and since not all SENTIENT children of God are reached by the gospel ministry, they do not experience the temporal salvation that is THROUGH the means of the gospel ministry.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to ...each other. And in many other places as well.
============

Doctor, the subject here is eternal salvation by God's free grace.

Eternal salvation is by the faith OF Jesus Christ, i.e. His faithfulness in securing righteousness in His work of redemption.

Here the WORK of Christ is contrasted with the WORK of man in securing eternal salvation... i.e eternal salvation is by God's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE grace.

Here is the indisputable proof: PLEASE READ
Romans 3:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The righteousness of God's provision for the eternal salvation of His people BY the faith OF Christ, is THROUGH the redemption that is in of Christ!

The "BY faith of Jesus Christ" in 3:22 and "THROUGH the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" in 3:23 are speaking of the same thing - the GROUND and BASIS of eternal salvation.

And Eph 2:8-9 is most certainly speaking of eternal salvation... and the contrast is between the WORK of Christ and the WORK of man.

Sir, you are in a grievous and serous error... but that doesn't make you any less a child of God.

Sing F Lau
Sing said: "Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when... he believed (in Gen 15)."

Morrow replied: You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.
========
Morrow, read Gen 15:1-6, and tell me where I am wrong? Abraham was already a man justified by God in Gen 11-14.
But you would reject this, and insist that Abraham was justified by God only UNTIL he believed in Gen 15. Therefore you are insisting that Abraham was still a unjustifed man in Gen 11-14, i.e. he was still a man in his native state of condemnation and death.

And yes, you understanding of that passage is very authoritative!! (I speak as a fool to a wise and prudent man with foolish ideas).

The wise and prudent think the accounting of the believing act to the believer to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace IS THE SAME as the accounting of Christ's righteousness to a condemned dead sinner!

So wise and prudent... and so authoritative. And that's wet sarcasm.

Romans 4
4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Paul asked, WHAT WAS ABRAHAM'S EXPERIENCE?

In Romans 3, Paul has established that justification is by God's free grace ALONE, based solely on the righteousness of Christ ALONE. In Romans 4, Paul is establishing the point that that justification by God's free grace alone can only be EXPERIENCED by faith ALONE, and not by works of righteousness. By works of righteousness, a child of God WILL NOT EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. Believing is the means appointed to experience that blessedness.

Abraham is a CLASSIC demonstration of that truth.

And you won't have this because you are wise and prudent - in your own eyes.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
========

Scriptures:
Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
...Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Please tell Doctor, what is accounted to Abraham in the above passages? What is the pronoun 'it'? What is the immediate antecedent? Is it the righteousness of Christ, or the believing act of Abraham?

It is so easy to imagine what the Scriptures say... and not let it says what it ACTUALLY DOES!

Doctor, have you heard of an acute disease call 'sound-byte-itis'????? Go to the Chief Physician to have this debilitating disease cured!

You are my dear brother!

Now your turn to dig in my garden!
I have weeded yours.












Thursday, April 14, 2011

"I am a Reformed Calvinist" said a man

"I am a Reformed Calvinist"


Peterman

I am a Reformed Calvinist, and we still preach salvation as though it was a decision for three reasons. One, the Chosen will come to faith and choose correctly. Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation. (This makes folk ultimately guilty for rejecting Him.) Thirdly, it brings great judgment upon those that reject Him. We forget that a witness testifies for and against people in court. For those that say no, our witness is against them. God is not just a little bit right, He is found right, as it says, when He judges. Those that reject Him, are not just a... little bit guilty. The problem that I have with those that try to just get a decision and a membership card, is that they think that they can force God to regenerate someone based on their sovereign choice instead of God's Sovereign Grace. 

Page 
the call is universal but not the salvation - hypo-Calvinism, Amyraldianism - not true Calvinism is what you are advocating. 

Peterman
No Charles, you are a heretic. I have challenged you again and again and you refuse honest debate. You have a severe misunderstanding of scripture as well as a skewered view of history. Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy. Many men, including several Reformed pastors who I have a great deal of respect for have pleaded with you incessantly to come under correction. You refuse and continue to spew lies and do damage to the reformed camp. News flash Charles! Being persecuted for twisting truth and misrepresenting the Gospel, is not the same as being persecuted for the faith of Christ our Lord. You are seriously deceived. I pray the Lord brings you out of darkness.

David
I agree Dan that we should just share the gospel with everybody and let God give faith to those whom He has chosen. They will follow because grace is TRULY IRRESISTIBLE.

Page

WITH LIMITATIONS! Unconditional election and Total depravity!!!

Peterman
 Oh please, Charles, fill us in with your astute knowledge. Help us understand. And use Scripture.

Sing F Lau

Dan, as a Reformed Calvinist, does God send you out to preach the gospel (the good news of what God has done to save His people) to His children (the elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of... grace and salvation) to believe the truth, OR does He send you out to offer salvation to all and sundry without distinction, that whoever will believe shall have eternal life? Would God send a preacher to command those whom God has not given to Christ as their Saviour to believe on Christ as their Saviour? Does God require anyone to believe a lie? What do you, as a Reformed Calvinist believe on this?

Sing F Lau

‎"Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation."
So, in your understanding, the call to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ extends even to those whom God did not give Jesus as their Savior? So, can I conclude that God is sending you t...o command some men to believe a lie? If salvation is particular, shouldn't the call to believe the truth of such salvation be co-extensive with it, i.e. particularly to God whom God has saved... calling upon them to believe the truth of their salvation? Whether a preacher knows who are God's children in the audience is not the issue here. Don't don't even raise that here.

Sing F Lau

Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation. (This makes folk ultimately guilty for rejecting Him.) ====== I am just thinking: if Jesus was not even given to be their Saviour, how could they reject Him as their Saviour? Who can be rightly charged and condemned for their rejection of their Saviour? Is it not them that God gave Christ as their Saviour? Think about it!

Sing F Lau

‎"Thirdly, it brings great judgment upon those that reject Him." ===== What is the DIVINELY ORDAINED function and purpose of the gospel ministry? Those who go to hell, do they go there because they reject Christ as their Savior? I would like to know a Reformed Calvinist's answer to those specific questions. Thanks. I will now muzzle up and listen. Page Please, Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!

Peterman
 
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” I Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Sing F Lau
Dan @ "For many are called, but few are chosen.” May I ask, "called" from what to what? and "chosen" to/for what? What is the CONTEXT CONTEXT of that statement? Stay focused please. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
 I Corinthians 1:18 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." ======== Let me draw your attention to a few PLAIN FACTS in this statement. 1. All the audience of the preaching of the word of the cross are divided into two groups: those who are perishing, and us who are being saved. 2. The SAME word of the cross COMES to those who are perishing and to those that are being saved. They are ALREADY in the state of perishing and they are ALREADY in the state of being saved before/when the word of the cross comes to them. Can you agree that that is a plain fact from that statement? My questions then are: - who are those that are perishing, and what can the word of the cross do for such? - who are those that are being saved, and what can the word of the cross do for such? Please stay focused and consider my inquiry. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Dan @ "Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however, when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy."
Dan, Charles can defend and explain himself well enough. May I draw your attention to the statement "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." It seems you vehemently disagree with that statement. Perhaps you have gravely mistaken that statement as a denial of efficacious grace/irresistible grace. That is not so at all. Irresistible grace is strictly in the context of God effectually calling an elect in his native state of sin and death to that grace and salvation. In the effectual call, none can resist! The dead can't possibly resist the sovereign powerful act of the Life-Giver in quickening him, and not even the devil can prevent this. But note Charles' statement carefully. He states, "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." Saying the "regenerate" who resists God's grace in the gospel call to conversion on the one hand, and saying the dead elect can resist God's grace in the effectual call to grace and salvation ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

A  biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology! This statement alone is enough to prove that the regenerate (God's children) CAN resist the grace of God. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. How did they receive the grace of God in vain? Ans: They RESIST the grace of God as a result, the grace of God through the ministry of the word did not accomplish its divinely intended purpose in them.

Sing F Lau
Charles @ "Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!"
You must make the application yourself!

Page
No, all i have to do is 'lock step' with you...now where did i leave my polished brown boots! LOL

Sing F Lau
A little brown Chinese lad like me wears brown straw sandals. If you lock step with me, my straw sandals would disintegrate in no time! So please give a wide berth!

Page
Company, atten hut, wide berth, forward, MARCH, one two, left right, your left, your right, you're in the army now, your not behind the plow, you'll never get rich, you... cadence one two, three four, one, two, three. four, one two three four, keep wide berth for our sandled sissies, gimme your left, your right...

Steward

Two cents worth (or maybe only 1) It is not a call, it is a command. (1 John 3:23 KJV) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Only His sheep will obey His command. (John 10:26-30 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. {30} I and my Father are one. All others judge themselves......(Acts 13:46-48 KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. {47} For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. {48} And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sing F Lau
Yes Sir, I will keep up. I have just kicked off the cumbersome straw sandal. Barefooted is easier!

Page
arms length, men don't step on Sing's toes, you know, hut ho, hut ho

Page
 ‎...and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life...free willers want to make that eternal life..no, they have eternal life but not everlasting life. Eternal life is assured and irresistible but everlasting life is conditional on obedience to correct teaching to attain everlasting life.

Steward
 Having a hard time following. Are you being sarcastic when saying eternal life and everlasting life are different even though it is the same Greek word in the passage quoted?

Page

‎... that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you ...is not a rejection of the new birth, with eternal life (unless you want to make regeneration conditional on "putting it from you") but they, regenerate, put off the command to follow the Lord in obedience. This is a clear admonition from Paul. eternal life is different than everlasting same greek word different context.

Steward

Then I guess the words of Christ are in error. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: He says they follow Him. Now if you want to make distinction between eternal life and everlasting life in connection with fol...lowing or not following you will have to take that up with the Lord who said His sheep follow Him. Regeneration is not conditional, it is sovereignly given to His elect sheep by His own power. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord. You can context it however you want but these words are directly from the mouth of the Almighty Sovereign God of the Universe. Deal with it or no, not my problem. (Luke 9:35 KJV) And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Peterman

Don't follow Charles, Leanna. He is a flaming heretic. He couches his heresy behind seeming adherence to the Doctrines of Grace. You will notice his convoluted thinking, circular logic, as well as outright heretical statements when you leas...t expect it. He is a strange man that refuses sound teaching. I am disappointed and downright disgusted to see that Sing is truly a lackey to this heretic and the deception is rampant. It is best not to get caught up in their confusion. God is not a God of confusion. Sing, I can assure you, I am very focused. You have not even come close to correctly expositing the Scripture I gave you, primarily because you want it to say something it does not. If you want any credence at all then deal with the core of it which says in I Corinthians : 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. The inherent worth of the Gospel message is not determined by the hearer. Again, you guys are absolutely insane. I preach the Gospel to all. The call of Christ is universal. It is for everyone and it is the very thing that condemns them. Every man on the face of the planet is commanded to believe. The problem is, men can't without the express grace of God. Many stumble, the elect come to Christ.

Page
 So God is to blame for men not getting saved and you call me strange!! He can save everyone but for fun leads sinners on for sport?

Steward
That's right God is responsible. Paul responded to this years ago. (Rom 9:19-21 KJV) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? {20} Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {21} Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Page
fine line btw fate and faith Christian fate is denial of the doctrine of original sin. God is not the author of sin in this subject.

Steward
 He isn't, we are. He takes clay out of the same lump of crap and fashions it as He sees fit. Submit or not to His sovereign decision to make you what He wills. What a joke, the pot telling the potter what to do.

Page

‎...we still preach salvation as though it was a decision... telling!!!

Peterman
Evil exists because God turns loose that which is created. You reveal once again your faulty understanding of right theology.

Page
 different theological views, I believe that the Triune God decreed that the fall would be ordained and not permitted. This bringas highest glory to God and and no exaltation to humans.

Steward

That may be your belief but where were you when God decided between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism? Were you standing along side God and he gave you direct knowledge of what He was going to do? (Job 38:1-4 KJV) Then the LORD ans...wered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, {2} Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? {3} Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. {4} Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Sing F Lau
 
Dan, do you see some of your plain errors YET? No? I think it is better to refrain from calling someone "heretic." It serves no purpose. It will help if one engages the issues raised in the discussion. Show and demonstrate the falsity of a view is better.

Page 
Leanna, certainly I was not there and God certainly made no decision about being supra or infra. He left that to you and me to decided for ourselves what we believe HE IS. He is the I AM.

Sing F Lau

Charles @I believe that the Triune God decreed that the fall would be ordained and not permitted. =====
What's the difference between decreed and ordained? I believe only in providence things are permitted or restrained. ...I would say God decreed the fall! Whether He decreed the fall first or He decreed election first, I will leave it to others for now.

Steward

True that God is omniscient and knows all things but this world we live in did have a beginning and so do we. True, He made no decision between supra or infra and certainly didn't reveal that to us. What He did reveal is that salvation is... on the basis of belief in Christ as the Promised One to His elect both before He came and since. He also revealed to us that He elects some to eternal life through belief in Christ and some not. To the ones who are not elect He says, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." To the elect He says, "My sheep hear my voice and will follow." He also told the non elect, "You do not hear because you are not of God." Since we are not omniscient but as Jeremiah says, 'stupid and devoid of knowledge' He had to make what He revealed to us pretty simple to understand for those who have ears to hear and those who are of God and His sheep will hear and follow. You have no right or authority to believe anything one way or another about God's thinking as He created and laid the foundation of the world. And you have no right nor authority to make eternal life and everlasting life two different things.

Page

"You do not hear because you are not of God" like standing by a gravestone and speaking to the dead. God don't speak to dead people! They died by His pronounced curse upon them.

Sing F Lau

That's a very plain and clear declaration! God wastes no move... He doesn't waste time speaking to those whom He has bypassed in eternity. God's children are often schizophrenic. Not so with God! Consistency will save them from much nonsense!

Page
God does not waste even good granite to carve their name nor epithet.

Sing F Lau

The gospel, the good news of what God has done to save His people... is the news intended for those whom God has saved, i.e effectually called to grace and salvation, that they may know the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, and ...live godly, righteously and soberly in this world as they wait for their inheritance. Misguided folks think the gospel is the offer of salvation to all who hear!

Page

Sing, IMHO Arminians are misguided folk who think the gospel is the offer of salvation to all who hear! We are dealing with reformed people who know the gospel is not sufficient for all but in a "cruel" manner want to include "all" knowing... "all" won't be saved. This a great stride away from "misguided" It needs to be publiclly denounced as the pretense it truly is!!!

Steward
The Gospel is to go out to everyone and the elect will be revealed by that gospel. Who are you, O man, to argue with the Creator? Christ spoke to the Pharisees and commanded them to believe as well as everyone else. Should we do less than Christ?

Page
You are so religiously cruel, Leanna. where is tjhe love?

Sing F Lau

"The Gospel is to go out to everyone and the elect will be revealed by that gospel." =============
Excuse me! What is the gospel again? The gospel is......

Sing F Lau
 Charles, the so-called 'reformed' are no less deformed in their view concerning the gospel and its the inconsistent presentation of it than the Arminians they despise!

Sing F Lau

Why are the reformed people so religiously cruel... (actually deluded and unbelieving) - that they offer salvation to those whom God had by-passed in his election, Christ did not give himself, and the Spirit did not regenerate?????? It is CRUEL MOCKERY to offer salvation to the dead. It is like offering a Big Mac to a dead man, teasing him to eat. I will kick the idiot ass for insulting the dead. Why are the reformed people so religiously presumptuous... (actually deluded and unbelieving) - that they offer salvation to God's children, those elect who are already regenerated? Doesn't the offer come too late? Why offer salvation to those God ALREADY bestowed salvation freely by His sovereign grace? Why such presumption? Why such pretention and ostentation - offering salvation to any body!!! Who do they think they are???

Page

Sing, I am in the serious and fearful mode of working this out in my own life. How am I to be 'evangelistic' in obedience? For me personally here in Memphis I have no one to instruct me so it is just myself, what little knowledge i have of... scripture and the third person of the God head indwelling. At the church i attend when that awful ceremony called an altar call for the unregenerate to come forward for 'salvation' I pray earnestly as though the whole flow of this ceremony rest on my sholders. I renounce the demonic forces at work and then strangly (as though it is a surprise for me) I pray for courtesy to be shown to the unregenerate. that they won't be drawn in by this appeal and they will remain unmoved. Sunday after Sunday I witness the lack of success that this ceremony has and I believel that my prayers are effectual.

Page
 Our attention to the unregenerate should be respectful as we would respect magistrates. They should not be denounced nor looked down on but just respected with common courtesy. We don't know who the unregenerate are so as we are led by the Spirit and we do have that Spirit to lead us though most free willers deny it. You know when you should talk to someone particularly. You know. You know but many Christians want to plead ingorance to justify their theology.

Sing F Lau

Charles, nothing of what I have stated indicates any disrespect for any one. And I don't need to know who among my hearers are God's children (elect who are already effectually called to grace and salvation by God's free and sovereign grace...) and who are not. That ignorance does not in any way prevent me from having a clear and firm conviction in my mind that my preaching is the declaration of the gospel, i.e. of the good news of what God has done to save His people... that God sovereignly purposed redemption for a specific people... that Christ sovereingnly accomplished that eternal redemption, and the Spirit of God applied that redemption to each individual elect... and I am sent to bring the good news to them, and to call such to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace. And whosoever believe has eternal life... THAT IS, whosoever believes does so because they have been saved and possesses eternal life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life ALREADY bestowed by God. The gospel comes to those who ARE SAVED... and they receive it as the good news of God's power in saving them. The gospel is intended for such only, and no body else. Let the preacher be truthful in the presentation of the gospel. The gospel must be presented truthfully... not deceitfully to mislead.

Page ‎

@ Sing, never meant anything toward anyone but myself, agree with you. My beliefs are challeged in oppositional environments and that serves to make me a better person, I hope anyway!

Peterman
Our "attention" as you put it must ever be Christ and Him crucified proclaimed to the WHOLE WORLD. God will bring the elect to life and leave the reprobate to stumble. You do not understand the grace of God.

Spittles

SALVATION - Whom can fathom the ways of the Lord (Calvinist's "appear" to KNOW)...is your Faith IN "Knowing How God works"? (concerning salvation, etc?) /// OR is your Faith "like mine" - IN "His finished work on that cross, He took my dese...rved place". /// DISCIPLESHIP (follower of Christ, many bible verses are addressed to His kids, KNOWING which are Salvation & which are Discipleship IS rightly dividing His Word, PLUS Knowing which bible verse is speaking of mankinds spirit / soul (mind or heart) / body. /// REALIZE All mankind has a Way that seems right unto them, but in the end it leads to death (self-righteousness OR false humility). My Discipleship Faith is in telling people IF you want to do something to get to heaven, "confess with shame" i can do nothing, woe to me (see all salvation stories for SIMILAR humbled responses that occur AFTER Holy Spirit convicts an Unbeliever BEFORE I became a Believer). Yes, I tell others there need for repentance "just like" Jesus & John Baptist & others told mankind (Matt 3:2 & 4:17)... Thee Calvinist FAITH is that such a person was already a Believer WHEN they responded back to Holy Spirit "woe to me" (does that make sense? ...so AFTER becoming Truly His the 1st thing one does is say WOE to me? - I conclude an Unbeliever can "make a Law unto themselves, etc because there spirit is dead but there Soul is merely depraved & they can reply have mercy AFTER God initiates conviction...as to the degree of SINCERETY of the Unbeliever before God "freely pardons", that is His decision.

Page

Eric, you are dealing with moderated Calvinist here. They hold to hypothetical universal atonement and are Amyraldian. They hold to a universal atonement for everyone and a particular one for a few. If you hold to the finished work on the cross (Penal substitutionary Atonement) then you are a good Calvinist like myself. I evangelize more than ye all!

Sing F Lau
Dan @ "Our "attention" as you put it must ever be Christ and Him crucified proclaimed to the WHOLE WORLD. ==========
Him crucified for whom? Give attention to that truth, and preach consistently. The good news of Him crucified is INTENDED for the same people for whom He was crucified. And such are scattered throughout the whole world indeed. To pretend to offer it to all without distinction is to deceive!

Thursday, April 7, 2011

Penal Substitutionary Atonement of Christ



Page
My primary focus is on the Penal Substitutionary Atonement of Christ. His death is sufficient and unconditional for the ones He died for. It is Penal. He took the full punishment for us in a substitutionary manner. Nothing was left undone for the sinner to do. The price of redemption was fully paid leaving nothing for the elect to do in order to go to heaven.

There is no universalism involved at all, it is particular, limited, definite, sufficient, unconditional and irresistible.

Sing F Lau
How do you like these exact and precise words?
You are in the company of good ole masters!

"Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of Himself in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf,(8); yet inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,(9) their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.(10) 8. Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:18-19; Isa 53:5-6. 9. Ro 8:32; 2Co 5:21. 10. Ro 3:26; Eph 1:6-7; 2:7.

Note the emphasis: "... in their stead... in their behalf... in their stead..."

It is penal, it is substitutionary, and it is atoning.

BLESS the Lord!

Sing F Lau
‎"Christ... did fully discharge the debt... did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice... "

Page
Bless the Lord!

Sing F Lau
‎"... their justification is ONLY of free grace ..." declared the ole masters, but their step-children insist that it is justification by faith (man's act of believing) alone.

They can't decide which alone they want!

It is by grace alone (the... MANNER justification is applied to each elect).
It is by the righteousness of Christ alone (the GROUND of of the elect's justification).
It is by faith alone (the EVIDENCE of justification by God's free grace based on the righteousness of Christ).

Richardson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB27OjUFZjs&feature=related

Page
The awful moderation of this won the majority and decisional regeneration reigns supreme in American Evangelical churches. This moderation is a leap from penal substitutionary atonement, in fact a denial of it altogether. One twist and it is gone, a little bacteria and the whole is soon rotten.

Page
Kate, how appropriate! praise him. Now I got a song stuck in my head!!! LOL

Sing F Lau
I have been dealing with Reformed Baptists - I told them that they hold to DEFORMED doctrine of salvation - that are thorough going Arminians.

Sing F Lau
‎"... a denial of it ALTOGETHER."
"The awful moderation..." is hardly a honest description.

Penal Substitutionary Atonement cannot take the slightest moderation and can still remain what it is!

IMPOSSIBLE SIR! -bellowing out loud!-

Page
‎- bellowing out loud!-

Hart
What, and how much of it, do you tell someone not listening nor reading scripture, yet always gabbing for practice?

Page
probably leave them alone

Hart
Nor attend concerted (music) bash?

Morrow
Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who saves us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible.


Page
hypocalvinist!!! not a universalist and no sufficient atonement but in that non-existent 'ἄτομος"—átomos' between faith and grace. They have split the theological atom and salvaged grace and faith and SLAM BAM THANK YOU MADAM - the Amyraldian came into being and Andrew Fuller discovered this magic formula and now we have DEFORMED Baptist.

Saving grace, piano and organ, missionaries, seminaries, mission boards, fund raising, Annie Armstrong, more money squandered than you can imagine, orchestras, singing xmas trees and live animals on stage and a resurrected Jesus suspended by wires from top of the cathedral. More money, fund raising operatives, mission shame and blame. A hell for every denier of the free offer, yes, a burning hell to win the lost! Burn in hell if you don't assent. Burn in hot scorching flames if you deny the Baptist deformed faith. Burn in hell and leave a donation from your inheritance to the cause of reaching the whole world!

Page
WOW one long paragraph, breathless, didn't think i could do it!

Neveceral
mate... breathless... I can't get to the end of the line in one breath

Page
sign of aging.. let me catch up with my breath! deep and slow...

Page ‎
@Sing, "Penal Substitutionary Atonement cannot take the slightest moderation and can still remain what it is! IMPOSSIBLE SIR! "

endowed by the Holy Spirit and the gates of hades are not prevailing against you. You are crashing Satan's stronghold and his party.

Morrow
Why Charles...you have perfected guilt by association..."Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy, if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.

This form of the argument is as follows:
A makes a claim of P's status.
B also makes a claim of P's status.
Therefore, P is guilty by association.
Example: Alice believes in a theory. Bob and Carol believe in the same theory. Therefore, Alice is just like Bob and Carol." Wikipedia
[edit]

Morrow
Charles...you are so good at what you do!

Page
thank you!

Hart
Charles, that's a rather short list of glaring diversions/distractions from the old path. THanks for pointing out the few evils so common to modern churchianity!

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who save...s us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible."
=============
Morrow, you still don't understand, do you? You are WILFULLY ignorant and misrepresenting concerning the means.

You have just MIXED free grace with man's work of faith because you REFUSE and IS UNABLE to distinguish the eternal salvation WITHOUT means and temporal salvation WITH means.

Eternal salvation is by God's free grace: God purposed eternal redemption for His people, Christ secured that eternal redemption for His people, the Spirit of God and Christ applied that eternal redemption to His people when they were dead in trespasses and sins..... Eternal salvation, applied by God's free grace, WITHOUT MEANS, completely and wholly fitted a man for eternal glory....

Temporal salvation is through the divinely appointed means administered by preachers, and the obedience response of God's children.

It is a LIE to say that those whom you slanderously label as, the hyper-calvinists don't believe in means. They most certainly do... but they rightly see the divinely appointed means in the CONTEXT of the TEMPORAL salvation, as explained above. They most certainly believe in the means as necessary for temporal salvation of God's children... They believe in the means to bring God's children to faith in the truth of their salvation.

I suggest to you that you resist and desist from your IGNORANT LIE... because you are really misrepresenting those whom you slanderously called hyper-calvinists. SHAME.

Hart
I hated being accused of being a Calvinist which I'm not. I have no lineage with so-called, "Great Reformers". Bahd I.D.

Sing F Lau
I wrote this somewhere concerning the great confusion on 'means'.
"It is like a Genevan who believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary for the CONCEPTION of a child calling a Chinese brother a ‘hyper-calvinist’ just because he believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary for the conception of life, but ONLY for the growth and development of the child already delivered. How bizarre can the world get! It gets even more bizarre when a Genevan misrepresents the Chinese brother and accuse him as saying, “milk and baby clothes are not needed at all for new born babes.” A ‘standard reformed’ brother boldly retorted, ‘If justification is prior to faith, then there is no need of faith at all; then what need is there for preaching!’ It is like a man saying to his wife, ‘darling wifey, you said milk and baby clothes are not needed for the conception and the delivery of a child, then what need is there to shop for these things for our baby now?’ The wifey rolled her eyes and said, ‘Get me the rolling pin, quick’!"

Good Morrow, don't be like that wilfully ignorant Genevan! Otherwise may your wife knock some sense into your head with a big rolling pin.

Morrow
Sing...All of salvation is by free grace...All of it...all of it...All..all..allllllll... From eternity past ...through time...to eternity future is all of freeeeeeeeeeeeeee grace. You and I do NOT disagree on grace...we disagree on how God chooses to administer His grace.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who save...s us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible."
=========

"They both deny the Bible", but RICH and DELUDED Morrow alone TWIST the Bible.

Here's how! Morrow insists that his work of preaching is the necessary means (now, please don't tell me the nonsense that God will use a dog to do that...) for God to bestow eternal salvation to sinners.... i.e. to aid Him in His work of effectually calling sinners dead in their trespasses and sins to grace and salvation... and the hearing and believing act of the sinners are also necessary means to obtain that eternal salvation from God. John 6: 28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." The activity of believing is work... a work God expected of His children.

Morrow's boasted PURE GRACE is no grace at all ... it is a grace that requires the work of the preacher preaching the gospel, and a grace that requires the works of hearing, understanding and believing what is preached, otherwise that grace is IMPOTENT. That's a BASTARDIZED grace!

"By grace through faith" - if faith here is your believing, then it can only means by grace and evidenced by your faith in Christ... because faith is an effect of grace. An effect of grace CAN'T possibly in involved in securing that salvation by grace!

Don't tell me breathing takes part in obtaining the life that enables breath! That's just plain nonsense and the height of wolliness!

But by grace through faith: speaks of the MANNER that salvation is bestowed, and through faith (speaks of the BASIS and GROUND) - and that is the faithfulness of Christ in the work of redemption... read these carefully:

Rom 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

"By faith OF Jesus Christ" in verse 22 is the equivalent of "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" in verse 23.

Morrow
Who is "RICH and DELUDED"...Is that me? Do I alone TWIST the Bible? I have never said that about you... weep. I have always thought you had help with it.

Sing F Lau
I am leaving town... enjoy yourselves in discussion.

You would be glad not to hear from me for a day or two!

I must go and administer the divinely ordained means to bring spiritual good to those whom God Himself has fathered.

Raines
some good natured bashing going on? usually it is me on arminians

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Do I alone TWIST the Bible? I have never said that about you... weep. I have always thought you had help with it."
==========
Whether you alone twist the Bible is not the issue. The point is, you twisted the Bible on the specific subject being discussed.

The 'pure grace' is not pure at all... for it is a grace that requires the works of preaching and believing to make it effectual. It is a grace ADULTERATED grace.

Sing F Lau
Just some humorous tickling! Never bash a fellow pilgrim. Morrow and I have been on the topic for the last 10+ years.

Page
10+ years! I was just out of high school!!!

Sing F Lau
‎1689.11.3
"Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of Himself in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper,... real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf,(8); yet inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,(9) their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.(10)"
===========
Pay attention to these words:

"... and both freely..." BOTH FREELY! Read that?
"... their justification is of free grace..." Read that?

What does 'BOTH' refer to? What are they?

1. God's provision of the perfect Substitute, freely by His grace.

2. God's acceptance of the Substitute's work in the stead of His people, freely by His grace. The Substitute's work is ALL that matters in the justification of those substituted!
- The works of preaching and believing, etc. are ALL excluded!

In this manner alone are BOTH "the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners." Any tampering, like including preaching and believing into the equation of justification before God, repudiates the PLAIN truth that "justification is only of free grace," and thus BOTH the exact justice and rich grace of God are prostituted and diminished.

Raines
just out of high school???? whew.

Sing F Lau
Ya, high school for retired folks and senior citizens, that is.

Monday, April 4, 2011

The harvest is plentiful!

The harvest is existing. Labourers are sent forth to gather it into the churches!

James
It's February already! Now's not the time to slow down - the Harvest is great but the workers are few. This verse helps me to stay alert and on target. ”A little extra sleep, a little more slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest—and poverty will pounce on you like a bandit; scarcity will attack you like an armed robber.” Proverbs 24:33

Sing F Lau
The harvest is all ready to be gathered in.
God Himself by His free and sovereign grace HAS PRODUCED the harvest. And He gave us the command to go and gather in the harvest into the barn... the NT church. God has made them fit for eternal glory, all fit and ready for heaven.

God Himself has produced His children... we are go out and gather them into the NT churches. The means to do so is the gospel ministry. God's children out there, ALREADY born of God, and they alone, will hear the gospel, and believe the gospel, and be converted... be baptized and be gathered into NT churches. The gospel ministry is the means to IDENTIFY and SEARCH out God's children out there. They who will believe ARE God's children.

The harvest is ALREADY there by God's free and sovereign grace. We don't have anything to do with the PRODUCTION of the harvest. God does it alone. God gives us the means to gather in the harvest...

Yes, let's work while it is day. Amen.

James
They are waiting - "But how will they hear unless a preacher is sent?"

Sing F Lau
Who are waiting? Those whom God has given eternal life and are enabled to hear, or those still dead in their trespasses and sins?

Just who is the gospel ministry ordained for, and what benefits will it bring to those intended?

What does this rhetorical question presupposes, "And how shall they believe on Him of whom they have not heard?" Who are those under consideration: those that are able to believe, i.e. those already begotten with eternal life, capable of hearing spiritual truth, and believing it.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

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no further response.