What's the matter with you, sir?We hear this reformed shibboleth so often: "Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, Scripture Alone, all for the Glory of God Alone."
What do they actually mean? What is by grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone, by Scripture alone...? What is that one thing that is by those various things alone?
Surely one same thing CANNOT be by so many ALONE in so many ways in the same sense! Common sense tells us that the word ALONE implies EXCLUSIVITY.
Tuesday 26th April at 10:55pm
Sing F Lau
I believe each ALONE declares exclusivity in its own unique context and sense.
"Grace alone" speaks of the manner that eternal salvation is bestowed upon each elect. God applies that eternal redemption FREELY, the recipient is completely passive, being ...dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of meeting NO condition whatsoever.
"Christ alone" speak of the basis of that eternal salvation; for it is by Christ's work of redemption alone that secured eternal redemption for those given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world.
"Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15).
Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspect of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidences a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.
"Scripture alone" speaks of the SOLE authority of Scriptures in declaring what we are to believe (doctrines) and to practice (conduct). That is to say, don't quote this reformer or that deformer, please! Appeal to Scriptures ALONE - prove and demonstrate your belief and practices from it ALONE, rightly divided, of course! Scriptures is not the FINAL authority. It is the ONLY authority.
When the four ALONEs are understood in these exact way alone, is ALL GLORY to God alone... none to the preachers, and none to the saved what so ever. Any thing less, God's glory is robbed and usurped.
Eternal salvation is indeed by God's free and sovereign grace.
God purposed eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
Christ secured eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
The Spirit applies eternal redemption to each elect by Himself;
- all these WITHOUT any aid or assistance or consent or cooperation of any man.
THEN and ONLY THEN, a man is enabled to respond to the gospel call... which brings temporal salvation to God's children (those whom God has applied eternal redemption by His FREE GRACE.)
That is not to say that God has ordained the gospel ministry as the means to bring temporal salvation to those whom He Himself, by His free and sovereign grace, has bestowed eternal salvation.
It is eternal salvation already bestowed by God's free grace that enables a man to believe the gospel for his temporal salvation from lies and falsehood and superstitions, etc.
The eternal salvation that enables a man to believe, and the temporal salvation (pertaining to this temporal life only) that comes from believing the gospel are TWO DIFFERENT and DISTINCT salvations.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Shibboleth and platitudes father confusion and delusion.
Morrow
Wow Sing. . . You are soooo sound. And smart too. I am really impressed with you.
Thomas
Real impressive comment MM. Thank you for showing us your heart.
Lim
Pastor Sing, that sums it out the correct understanding in the terms of grace, faith, scripture and Christ alone in salvation. if everyone follows this, they will understand the sovereignty of God in salvation and we have nothing to do in eternal salvation, only conversion we can get saved in truth, not entering God's kingdom.
Morrow
Hey Mark..You are right. I revealed my heart which at times is frustrated with the neat bow Sing puts on everything. In reality the doctrine is not as cut and dried...and I do mean dried...as he and his admirers make it. I apologize for allowing the frustration to show. I hope you will forgive me if I made you uncomfortable.
Thomas
Knowing where one stands has never made me uncomfortable. You owe me no apology for your ongoing dry sarcasm. Neat bows and clear distinctions give joy to the heart of those seeking truth. It is regretable that your heart cannot rejoice in it.
Sing F Lau
Mighty Morrow and I are friends... he digs at me and I dig at him... but hollow sarcasm is indeed sick!
He is always unhappy when what I said EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.
He is NOT contented with that glorious honor that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!
He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of Hod's elect.
I have never seen a midwife who fume and rage when she is told that she had no role in the conception of the life that she helped delivered!
Thomas
It is sad indeed when folks think OMNIPOTENT GOD needs a surrogate to help Him Father His children.
Sing F Lau
Mysteriously, there are two Michael, and what a signal example of the grace of God.
One is a hardened veteran soldier in the Lord's service as a gospel minister and an adjunct professor of some sort.
The other is a young man (a bachelor in his mid 20s) and a relatively new convert to the gospel of Jesus Christ from his previous hopeless and graceless religion.
One Michael I have never met but have interacted with for around 10 over years, and he hasn't come any closer to appreciate the UN-adulterated grace of God in the eternal salvation of God's own people.
The younger Michael I have met barely a dozen times, and his eyes dazzle when he heard of the free grace of God in saving him with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.
What a mystery of grace! I stand amazed at the free grace of God.
And lo! "Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Thomas
Amen and Amen.
Sing F Lau
"... that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,"
Just in case some woolly heads think that the wise and prudent are those dead in trespasses and sins, let me preempt this by reminding them that God wastes no move.
Those dead ...in trespasses and sins are already utterly and completely incapable of discerning the things of the Spirit of God, and to say that God needs to hide spiritual things from such is to impute foolishness to God... schizophrenic men do waste moves, God does not!
But them learned and titled folks seminarians, i.e. the wise and prudent in their OWN EYES, such children of God among them are capable to receiving such spiritual things... but because of their own wisdom... God keep them in ignorance of such obvious and plain truth... to shame them!
Page
You leave us with no loop holes to disagree with. If I were a moderate Calvinist I would just have to be silent!!!
But I agree with you fully!
Morrow
"He is always unhappy when what I said EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.
He is NOT contented with that glorious honor that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!
He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of Hod's elect."
I quoted you above Sing to highlight the flaws of our discussion. I am never unhappy when God does things without my input. I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has pro...duced entirely without my help. I do give my God all the glory for anyone's salvation...especially my own. I do not fume when I am denied a role in the eternal salvation of God's elect. Every person who has ever been saved in which i was allowed to be the mid-wife (as you say) I give God all the glory and praise for their salvation. But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it. You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.
Page
Faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. - true! the regenerate and preacher merit God. Page 's favor and their temporal salvation is enhanced!
Morrow
Neither when I preach the gospel and see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do i congratulate myself and and think how meritorious my work was...nor do I believe someone who really knows Christ will believe that their faith merited God's grace. The problem is you build this monstrous red herring ...call him a moderate Calvinist and began to beat all Calvinist who do not agree with you in every point as if they were all your red herring. It doesn't work with me. If there was ever a touch of humility from you it might be different. If there was a disavowing of omniscience....if you could ever admit that you could be wrong on a point here and there there would be less frustration with you. But I haven't seen that yet. No matter what the conversation is...if someone disagrees with you they are wooley headed, they want glory for themselves, they are to be pitied. On and on it goes until it becomes rather obvious and sickening.
Page
"..see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do i congratulate myself and and think how meritorious my work was..."
You have low esteem and false humility - when someone is born again under your preaching you should be proud of ...yourself. Perhaps without you they would be lost and on their way to hell. You are an agent in regeneration! You should be exalted highly for your meritorous work. Even God maintains a dependancy on you and without you He is not sovereign!
Morrow
Just your twisted view Charles ....just your twisted view.
Charles..I believe God is able and would be just as glorified if He saved every elect person without me...period. But I am thankful that He has called me to preach and teach so that, by His grace,and in pure mercy to me, He would let me be a co-laborer with Christ You seem to thrive on twisting other people's words.
Morrow
Have you ever seen anyone fall under conviction and come to Christ? Do you know anything at all about experiential salvation?
Sing F Lau
Morrow, fuming and raving
What did I write that drove you so mad that you burst out in such dry sarcasm? I am just puzzled?
I don't want to remain in error... so please teach me.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "I am never unhappy when God does things without my input."
You are never unhappy??? You have always insisted that your preaching is NECESSARY to regeneration! UNLESS you have been converted to gospel conversion at last! You have insisted that your input of preaching is needed for the divine work of regeneration!
Morrow @ "I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has produced entirely without my help."
So, are you are admitting that God regenerates His elect people WITHOUT your input of preaching as the means, I.E. without your help? Have you abandoned gospel regeneration so suddenly?
Are you now seeing the truth that regeneration is in the realm of ETERNAL salvation, and not in the realm of temporal salvation, therefore OUTSIDE the scope and effect of your ministry?
In eternal salvation, God DOES NOT need your help at all. That way, the eternal salvation of every elect is certain and guaranteed. HOWEVER, ministers like you have been appointed as the means to bring temporal salvation to God's children.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it."
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This statement indicates that you are as confused as ever concerning the distinction between eternal salvation without means and temporal salvation with means.
This statement also indicates that you have not even understood me. Your "but contrary to you" is a poor and pathetic misunderstanding of want I have said.
Eternal salvation by God's free grace alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.
Temporal salvation by God's appointed means alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.
But you have mixed the two - pure grace with appointed work. This mixture demeans and adulterates free grace and rob God of His glory; and magnifies and gives man a role in the eternal salvation of man.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.
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Sir Morrow, preaching is work... work appointed by God for you. Morrow sir, believing is work... a work appointed and expected of God's children!
John 6:
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation don't come out of thin air!
Sing F Lau
Morrow, your example of going to the doctor is a perfect illustration to prove my point, and manifests your basic confusion..
If you are sick and go to the doctor... presupposes that you have been raised from the dead by divine power, i.e. saved with eternal salvation by God's freeeeeeeee grace. Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor has NOTHING to do with you being quickened from your state of deadness, BUT the effects and evidences of that quickening by God's free grace.
Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor will bring temporal salvation to you... bring something good to your WELL BEING... It has nothing to do with your BEING as a child of God, which is entirely by free grace!
Young Michael understood all these without difficulties.... Grace indeed!
Morrow
We are illustrating two different things. I am talking about what constitutes "merit." You want to change the subject and apply the illustration in a way that I was not speaking of. It is a way to argue your point but legitimately. It is intentionally missing my point to make your own.
Sing F Lau
Doctor, you are the one who introduced the subject of merit, and I said i would leave that subject to you and your folks to debate. I am dealing with the issue that WORKS are involved in experiencing temporal salvation. And your work of going to the doctor is necessary to experience the temporal salvation of being healed of your sickness. And because you are proven wrong again, you say that I intentionally miss your point.
Morrow
You say: "And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation don't come out of thin air!"
My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
Morrow
Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to each other. And in many other places as well.
Morrow
You said: ""Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15)."
You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.
Morrow
You said: "Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His... justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspect of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidences a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace."
IS THAT WHAT THE WORD IMPUTED MEANS?
Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God.
So there are all kinds of places we disagree here but I don't expect you to admit your mistakes...oh well. See you later.
Hart
Dr. Morrow, of all places, do you think a dirtless baseball diamond is uncouth grounds for spittle? Parkview Field has opportunities for non-union workers ready to make plenty concessions. Hope to see you you soon! Thanks
Morrow
Richard, You have offered to help me find a new job several times. There are many unemployed folks out there. Maybe you should set up an agency :), since it is an interest you have. But you are barking up the wrong tree with me. You see......God spoke to me...called me...about 45 year ago...to preach His Gospel. I can't, nor do I desire, to do anything else. But keep trying...surely you can drum up some interest in your new business some where...Maybe Sing or Charles?
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
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Dr Morrow, this is where you are ENTIRELY WRONG.
Without imputed righteousness, a man is STILL in a condemned unjustified man, dead in trespasses and s...in. Such a man is incapable of believing.
This is your chief error. There is no accounting of righteousness in Genesis 15. If you insist that there is accounting of righteousness to Abraham in Gen 15, then you are insisting that Abraham was still an UN-JUSTIFIED, a man still under condemnation before that occasion, i.e. in Gen 11-14.
Doctor, go read again Gen 11-14, and see whether you are reading a man who was already justified by free grace in Ur when God effectually called him (and accounted Christ's righteousness to him) or a man still under condemnation UNTIL he believed in Gen 15.
Do it, Doctor!
You see, Doctor, you just refuse, or are INCAPABLE, of distinguishing the Legal justification applied to an elect personally by God's free grace where Christ's righteousness is accounted to a condemned man, and the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith where the believing act of God's child is accounted to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state.
Accounting Christ's righteousness to a condemned man, and accounting the believing act to the believer are TWO COMPLETELY different things. Don't you even begin to see this simple and obvious facts? Or are you really so obtuse?
Did I not say that distinction is the essence of sound theology???
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
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Good question doctor! I hope you didn't ask it rhetorically!
You insist that eternal salvation WILL ALWAYS inevitably result in temporal s...alvation... based on the notion that all that receive eternal salvation by the free grace of God will also be reached with the gospel ministry, and thus receive and experience the temporal salvation.
Since temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon means, and since not all SENTIENT children of God are reached by the gospel ministry, they do not experience the temporal salvation that is THROUGH the means of the gospel ministry.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to ...each other. And in many other places as well.
============
Doctor, the subject here is eternal salvation by God's free grace.
Eternal salvation is by the faith OF Jesus Christ, i.e. His faithfulness in securing righteousness in His work of redemption.
Here the WORK of Christ is contrasted with the WORK of man in securing eternal salvation... i.e eternal salvation is by God's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE grace.
Here is the indisputable proof: PLEASE READ
Romans 3:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The righteousness of God's provision for the eternal salvation of His people BY the faith OF Christ, is THROUGH the redemption that is in of Christ!
The "BY faith of Jesus Christ" in 3:22 and "THROUGH the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" in 3:23 are speaking of the same thing - the GROUND and BASIS of eternal salvation.
And Eph 2:8-9 is most certainly speaking of eternal salvation... and the contrast is between the WORK of Christ and the WORK of man.
Sir, you are in a grievous and serous error... but that doesn't make you any less a child of God.
Sing F Lau
Sing said: "Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when... he believed (in Gen 15)."
Morrow replied: You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.
========
Morrow, read Gen 15:1-6, and tell me where I am wrong? Abraham was already a man justified by God in Gen 11-14.
But you would reject this, and insist that Abraham was justified by God only UNTIL he believed in Gen 15. Therefore you are insisting that Abraham was still a unjustifed man in Gen 11-14, i.e. he was still a man in his native state of condemnation and death.
And yes, you understanding of that passage is very authoritative!! (I speak as a fool to a wise and prudent man with foolish ideas).
The wise and prudent think the accounting of the believing act to the believer to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace IS THE SAME as the accounting of Christ's righteousness to a condemned dead sinner!
So wise and prudent... and so authoritative. And that's wet sarcasm.
Romans 4
4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Paul asked, WHAT WAS ABRAHAM'S EXPERIENCE?
In Romans 3, Paul has established that justification is by God's free grace ALONE, based solely on the righteousness of Christ ALONE. In Romans 4, Paul is establishing the point that that justification by God's free grace alone can only be EXPERIENCED by faith ALONE, and not by works of righteousness. By works of righteousness, a child of God WILL NOT EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. Believing is the means appointed to experience that blessedness.
Abraham is a CLASSIC demonstration of that truth.
And you won't have this because you are wise and prudent - in your own eyes.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
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Scriptures:
Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
...Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Please tell Doctor, what is accounted to Abraham in the above passages? What is the pronoun 'it'? What is the immediate antecedent? Is it the righteousness of Christ, or the believing act of Abraham?
It is so easy to imagine what the Scriptures say... and not let it says what it ACTUALLY DOES!
Doctor, have you heard of an acute disease call 'sound-byte-itis'????? Go to the Chief Physician to have this debilitating disease cured!
You are my dear brother!
Now your turn to dig in my garden!
I have weeded yours.
