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My primary focus is on the Penal Substitutionary Atonement of Christ. His death is sufficient and unconditional for the ones He died for. It is Penal. He took the full punishment for us in a substitutionary manner. Nothing was left undone for the sinner to do. The price of redemption was fully paid leaving nothing for the elect to do in order to go to heaven.
There is no universalism involved at all, it is particular, limited, definite, sufficient, unconditional and irresistible.
Sing F Lau
How do you like these exact and precise words?
You are in the company of good ole masters!
"Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of Himself in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf,(8); yet inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,(9) their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.(10) 8. Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:18-19; Isa 53:5-6. 9. Ro 8:32; 2Co 5:21. 10. Ro 3:26; Eph 1:6-7; 2:7.
Note the emphasis: "... in their stead... in their behalf... in their stead..."
It is penal, it is substitutionary, and it is atoning.
BLESS the Lord!
Sing F Lau
"Christ... did fully discharge the debt... did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice... "
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Bless the Lord!
Sing F Lau
"... their justification is ONLY of free grace ..." declared the ole masters, but their step-children insist that it is justification by faith (man's act of believing) alone.
They can't decide which alone they want!
It is by grace alone (the... MANNER justification is applied to each elect).
It is by the righteousness of Christ alone (the GROUND of of the elect's justification).
It is by faith alone (the EVIDENCE of justification by God's free grace based on the righteousness of Christ).
Richardson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB27OjUFZjs&feature=related
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The awful moderation of this won the majority and decisional regeneration reigns supreme in American Evangelical churches. This moderation is a leap from penal substitutionary atonement, in fact a denial of it altogether. One twist and it is gone, a little bacteria and the whole is soon rotten.
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Kate, how appropriate! praise him. Now I got a song stuck in my head!!! LOL
Sing F Lau
I have been dealing with Reformed Baptists - I told them that they hold to DEFORMED doctrine of salvation - that are thorough going Arminians.
Sing F Lau
"... a denial of it ALTOGETHER."
"The awful moderation..." is hardly a honest description.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement cannot take the slightest moderation and can still remain what it is!
IMPOSSIBLE SIR! -bellowing out loud!-
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- bellowing out loud!-
Hart
What, and how much of it, do you tell someone not listening nor reading scripture, yet always gabbing for practice?
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probably leave them alone
Hart
Nor attend concerted (music) bash?
Morrow
Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who saves us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible.
hypocalvinist!!! not a universalist and no sufficient atonement but in that non-existent 'ἄτομος"—átomos' between faith and grace. They have split the theological atom and salvaged grace and faith and SLAM BAM THANK YOU MADAM - the Amyraldian came into being and Andrew Fuller discovered this magic formula and now we have DEFORMED Baptist.
Saving grace, piano and organ, missionaries, seminaries, mission boards, fund raising, Annie Armstrong, more money squandered than you can imagine, orchestras, singing xmas trees and live animals on stage and a resurrected Jesus suspended by wires from top of the cathedral. More money, fund raising operatives, mission shame and blame. A hell for every denier of the free offer, yes, a burning hell to win the lost! Burn in hell if you don't assent. Burn in hot scorching flames if you deny the Baptist deformed faith. Burn in hell and leave a donation from your inheritance to the cause of reaching the whole world!
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WOW one long paragraph, breathless, didn't think i could do it!
Neveceral
mate... breathless... I can't get to the end of the line in one breath
Page
sign of aging.. let me catch up with my breath! deep and slow...
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@Sing, "Penal Substitutionary Atonement cannot take the slightest moderation and can still remain what it is! IMPOSSIBLE SIR!
endowed by the Holy Spirit and the gates of hades are not prevailing against you. You are crashing Satan's stronghold and his party.
Morrow
Why Charles...you have perfected guilt by association..."Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy, if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.
This form of the argument is as follows:
A makes a claim of P's status.
B also makes a claim of P's status.
Therefore, P is guilty by association.
Example: Alice believes in a theory. Bob and Carol believe in the same theory. Therefore, Alice is just like Bob and Carol." Wikipedia
[edit]
Morrow
Charles...you are so good at what you do!
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thank you!
Hart
Charles, that's a rather short list of glaring diversions/distractions from the old path. THanks for pointing out the few evils so common to modern churchianity!
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who save...s us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible."
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Morrow, you still don't understand, do you? You are WILFULLY ignorant and misrepresenting concerning the means.
You have just MIXED free grace with man's work of faith because you REFUSE and IS UNABLE to distinguish the eternal salvation WITHOUT means and temporal salvation WITH means.
Eternal salvation is by God's free grace: God purposed eternal redemption for His people, Christ secured that eternal redemption for His people, the Spirit of God and Christ applied that eternal redemption to His people when they were dead in trespasses and sins..... Eternal salvation, applied by God's free grace, WITHOUT MEANS, completely and wholly fitted a man for eternal glory....
Temporal salvation is through the divinely appointed means administered by preachers, and the obedience response of God's children.
It is a LIE to say that those whom you slanderously label as, the hyper-calvinists don't believe in means. They most certainly do... but they rightly see the divinely appointed means in the CONTEXT of the TEMPORAL salvation, as explained above. They most certainly believe in the means as necessary for temporal salvation of God's children... They believe in the means to bring God's children to faith in the truth of their salvation.
I suggest to you that you resist and desist from your IGNORANT LIE... because you are really misrepresenting those whom you slanderously called hyper-calvinists. SHAME.
Hart
I hated being accused of being a Calvinist which I'm not. I have no lineage with so-called, "Great Reformers". Bahd I.D.
Sing F Lau
I wrote this somewhere concerning the great confusion on 'means'.
"It is like a Genevan who believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary for the CONCEPTION of a child calling a Chinese brother a ‘hyper-calvinist’ just because he believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary for the conception of life, but ONLY for the growth and development of the child already delivered. How bizarre can the world get! It gets even more bizarre when a Genevan misrepresents the Chinese brother and accuse him as saying, “milk and baby clothes are not needed at all for new born babes.” A ‘standard reformed’ brother boldly retorted, ‘If justification is prior to faith, then there is no need of faith at all; then what need is there for preaching!’ It is like a man saying to his wife, ‘darling wifey, you said milk and baby clothes are not needed for the conception and the delivery of a child, then what need is there to shop for these things for our baby now?’ The wifey rolled her eyes and said, ‘Get me the rolling pin, quick’!"
Good Morrow, don't be like that wilfully ignorant Genevan! Otherwise may your wife knock some sense into your head with a big rolling pin.
Morrow
Sing...All of salvation is by free grace...All of it...all of it...All..all..allllllll... From eternity past ...through time...to eternity future is all of freeeeeeeeeeeeeee grace. You and I do NOT disagree on grace...we disagree on how God chooses to administer His grace.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Poor reformed Baptist who believe that God's people are justified by the labor of faith...the merit of faith...and poor hyper-Calvinists who do not believe in means...no matter what God says. Poor...poor... But blessed be God who save...s us ...by grace through faith...and that salvation is not out of ourselves...it is the pure grace of God...but poor reformed Baptists and poor hyper-Calvinist. They have both missed the boat and worse, they both deny the Bible."
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"They both deny the Bible", but RICH and DELUDED Morrow alone TWIST the Bible.
Here's how! Morrow insists that his work of preaching is the necessary means (now, please don't tell me the nonsense that God will use a dog to do that...) for God to bestow eternal salvation to sinners.... i.e. to aid Him in His work of effectually calling sinners dead in their trespasses and sins to grace and salvation... and the hearing and believing act of the sinners are also necessary means to obtain that eternal salvation from God. John 6: 28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." The activity of believing is work... a work God expected of His children.
Morrow's boasted PURE GRACE is no grace at all ... it is a grace that requires the work of the preacher preaching the gospel, and a grace that requires the works of hearing, understanding and believing what is preached, otherwise that grace is IMPOTENT. That's a BASTARDIZED grace!
"By grace through faith" - if faith here is your believing, then it can only means by grace and evidenced by your faith in Christ... because faith is an effect of grace. An effect of grace CAN'T possibly in involved in securing that salvation by grace!
Don't tell me breathing takes part in obtaining the life that enables breath! That's just plain nonsense and the height of wolliness!
But by grace through faith: speaks of the MANNER that salvation is bestowed, and through faith (speaks of the BASIS and GROUND) - and that is the faithfulness of Christ in the work of redemption... read these carefully:
Rom 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
"By faith OF Jesus Christ" in verse 22 is the equivalent of "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" in verse 23.
Morrow
Who is "RICH and DELUDED"...Is that me? Do I alone TWIST the Bible? I have never said that about you... weep. I have always thought you had help with it.
Sing F Lau
I am leaving town... enjoy yourselves in discussion.
You would be glad not to hear from me for a day or two!
I must go and administer the divinely ordained means to bring spiritual good to those whom God Himself has fathered.
Raines
some good natured bashing going on? usually it is me on arminians
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Do I alone TWIST the Bible? I have never said that about you... weep. I have always thought you had help with it."
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Whether you alone twist the Bible is not the issue. The point is, you twisted the Bible on the specific subject being discussed.
The 'pure grace' is not pure at all... for it is a grace that requires the works of preaching and believing to make it effectual. It is a grace ADULTERATED grace.
Sing F Lau
Just some humorous tickling! Never bash a fellow pilgrim. Morrow and I have been on the topic for the last 10+ years.
Page
10+ years! I was just out of high school!!!
Sing F Lau
1689.11.3
"Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of Himself in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper,... real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf,(8); yet inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,(9) their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.(10)"
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Pay attention to these words:
"... and both freely..." BOTH FREELY! Read that?
"... their justification is of free grace..." Read that?
What does 'BOTH' refer to? What are they?
1. God's provision of the perfect Substitute, freely by His grace.
2. God's acceptance of the Substitute's work in the stead of His people, freely by His grace. The Substitute's work is ALL that matters in the justification of those substituted!
- The works of preaching and believing, etc. are ALL excluded!
In this manner alone are BOTH "the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners." Any tampering, like including preaching and believing into the equation of justification before God, repudiates the PLAIN truth that "justification is only of free grace," and thus BOTH the exact justice and rich grace of God are prostituted and diminished.
Raines
just out of high school???? whew.
Sing F Lau
Ya, high school for retired folks and senior citizens, that is.
