"I am a Reformed Calvinist"I am a Reformed Calvinist, and we still preach salvation as though it was a decision for three reasons. One, the Chosen will come to faith and choose correctly. Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation. (This makes folk ultimately guilty for rejecting Him.) Thirdly, it brings great judgment upon those that reject Him. We forget that a witness testifies for and against people in court. For those that say no, our witness is against them. God is not just a little bit right, He is found right, as it says, when He judges. Those that reject Him, are not just a... little bit guilty. The problem that I have with those that try to just get a decision and a membership card, is that they think that they can force God to regenerate someone based on their sovereign choice instead of God's Sovereign Grace.
Page
the call is universal but not the salvation - hypo-Calvinism, Amyraldianism - not true Calvinism is what you are advocating.
the call is universal but not the salvation - hypo-Calvinism, Amyraldianism - not true Calvinism is what you are advocating.
Peterman
No Charles, you are a heretic. I have challenged you again and again and you refuse honest debate. You have a severe misunderstanding of scripture as well as a skewered view of history. Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy. Many men, including several Reformed pastors who I have a great deal of respect for have pleaded with you incessantly to come under correction. You refuse and continue to spew lies and do damage to the reformed camp. News flash Charles! Being persecuted for twisting truth and misrepresenting the Gospel, is not the same as being persecuted for the faith of Christ our Lord. You are seriously deceived. I pray the Lord brings you out of darkness.
David
I agree Dan that we should just share the gospel with everybody and let God give faith to those whom He has chosen. They will follow because grace is TRULY IRRESISTIBLE.
Page
WITH LIMITATIONS! Unconditional election and Total depravity!!!
Peterman
Oh please, Charles, fill us in with your astute knowledge. Help us understand. And use Scripture.
Sing F Lau
Dan, as a Reformed Calvinist, does God send you out to preach the gospel (the good news of what God has done to save His people) to His children (the elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of... grace and salvation) to believe the truth, OR does He send you out to offer salvation to all and sundry without distinction, that whoever will believe shall have eternal life? Would God send a preacher to command those whom God has not given to Christ as their Saviour to believe on Christ as their Saviour? Does God require anyone to believe a lie? What do you, as a Reformed Calvinist believe on this?
Sing F Lau
"Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation."
So, in your understanding, the call to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ extends even to those whom God did not give Jesus as their Savior? So, can I conclude that God is sending you t...o command some men to believe a lie? If salvation is particular, shouldn't the call to believe the truth of such salvation be co-extensive with it, i.e. particularly to God whom God has saved... calling upon them to believe the truth of their salvation? Whether a preacher knows who are God's children in the audience is not the issue here. Don't don't even raise that here.
Sing F Lau
Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation. (This makes folk ultimately guilty for rejecting Him.) ====== I am just thinking: if Jesus was not even given to be their Saviour, how could they reject Him as their Saviour? Who can be rightly charged and condemned for their rejection of their Saviour? Is it not them that God gave Christ as their Saviour? Think about it!
Sing F Lau
"Thirdly, it brings great judgment upon those that reject Him." ===== What is the DIVINELY ORDAINED function and purpose of the gospel ministry? Those who go to hell, do they go there because they reject Christ as their Savior? I would like to know a Reformed Calvinist's answer to those specific questions. Thanks. I will now muzzle up and listen. Page Please, Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!
Peterman
No Charles, you are a heretic. I have challenged you again and again and you refuse honest debate. You have a severe misunderstanding of scripture as well as a skewered view of history. Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy. Many men, including several Reformed pastors who I have a great deal of respect for have pleaded with you incessantly to come under correction. You refuse and continue to spew lies and do damage to the reformed camp. News flash Charles! Being persecuted for twisting truth and misrepresenting the Gospel, is not the same as being persecuted for the faith of Christ our Lord. You are seriously deceived. I pray the Lord brings you out of darkness.
David
I agree Dan that we should just share the gospel with everybody and let God give faith to those whom He has chosen. They will follow because grace is TRULY IRRESISTIBLE.
Page
WITH LIMITATIONS! Unconditional election and Total depravity!!!
Peterman
Oh please, Charles, fill us in with your astute knowledge. Help us understand. And use Scripture.
Sing F Lau
Dan, as a Reformed Calvinist, does God send you out to preach the gospel (the good news of what God has done to save His people) to His children (the elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of... grace and salvation) to believe the truth, OR does He send you out to offer salvation to all and sundry without distinction, that whoever will believe shall have eternal life? Would God send a preacher to command those whom God has not given to Christ as their Saviour to believe on Christ as their Saviour? Does God require anyone to believe a lie? What do you, as a Reformed Calvinist believe on this?
Sing F Lau
"Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation."
So, in your understanding, the call to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ extends even to those whom God did not give Jesus as their Savior? So, can I conclude that God is sending you t...o command some men to believe a lie? If salvation is particular, shouldn't the call to believe the truth of such salvation be co-extensive with it, i.e. particularly to God whom God has saved... calling upon them to believe the truth of their salvation? Whether a preacher knows who are God's children in the audience is not the issue here. Don't don't even raise that here.
Sing F Lau
Secondly, the call is universal but not the salvation. (This makes folk ultimately guilty for rejecting Him.) ====== I am just thinking: if Jesus was not even given to be their Saviour, how could they reject Him as their Saviour? Who can be rightly charged and condemned for their rejection of their Saviour? Is it not them that God gave Christ as their Saviour? Think about it!
Sing F Lau
"Thirdly, it brings great judgment upon those that reject Him." ===== What is the DIVINELY ORDAINED function and purpose of the gospel ministry? Those who go to hell, do they go there because they reject Christ as their Savior? I would like to know a Reformed Calvinist's answer to those specific questions. Thanks. I will now muzzle up and listen. Page Please, Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!
Peterman
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Sing F Lau
Dan @ "For many are called, but few are chosen.” May I ask, "called" from what to what? and "chosen" to/for what? What is the CONTEXT CONTEXT of that statement? Stay focused please. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
I Corinthians 1:18 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." ======== Let me draw your attention to a few PLAIN FACTS in this statement. 1. All the audience of the preaching of the word of the cross are divided into two groups: those who are perishing, and us who are being saved. 2. The SAME word of the cross COMES to those who are perishing and to those that are being saved. They are ALREADY in the state of perishing and they are ALREADY in the state of being saved before/when the word of the cross comes to them. Can you agree that that is a plain fact from that statement? My questions then are: - who are those that are perishing, and what can the word of the cross do for such? - who are those that are being saved, and what can the word of the cross do for such? Please stay focused and consider my inquiry. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Dan @ "Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however, when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy."
Dan, Charles can defend and explain himself well enough. May I draw your attention to the statement "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." It seems you vehemently disagree with that statement. Perhaps you have gravely mistaken that statement as a denial of efficacious grace/irresistible grace. That is not so at all. Irresistible grace is strictly in the context of God effectually calling an elect in his native state of sin and death to that grace and salvation. In the effectual call, none can resist! The dead can't possibly resist the sovereign powerful act of the Life-Giver in quickening him, and not even the devil can prevent this. But note Charles' statement carefully. He states, "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." Saying the "regenerate" who resists God's grace in the gospel call to conversion on the one hand, and saying the dead elect can resist God's grace in the effectual call to grace and salvation ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology! This statement alone is enough to prove that the regenerate (God's children) CAN resist the grace of God. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. How did they receive the grace of God in vain? Ans: They RESIST the grace of God as a result, the grace of God through the ministry of the word did not accomplish its divinely intended purpose in them.
Sing F Lau
Charles @ "Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!"
You must make the application yourself!
Page
No, all i have to do is 'lock step' with you...now where did i leave my polished brown boots! LOL
Sing F Lau
A little brown Chinese lad like me wears brown straw sandals. If you lock step with me, my straw sandals would disintegrate in no time! So please give a wide berth!
Page
Company, atten hut, wide berth, forward, MARCH, one two, left right, your left, your right, you're in the army now, your not behind the plow, you'll never get rich, you... cadence one two, three four, one, two, three. four, one two three four, keep wide berth for our sandled sissies, gimme your left, your right...
Steward
Two cents worth (or maybe only 1) It is not a call, it is a command. (1 John 3:23 KJV) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Only His sheep will obey His command. (John 10:26-30 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. {30} I and my Father are one. All others judge themselves......(Acts 13:46-48 KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. {47} For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. {48} And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Sing F Lau
Yes Sir, I will keep up. I have just kicked off the cumbersome straw sandal. Barefooted is easier!
Page
arms length, men don't step on Sing's toes, you know, hut ho, hut ho
Page
...and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life...free willers want to make that eternal life..no, they have eternal life but not everlasting life. Eternal life is assured and irresistible but everlasting life is conditional on obedience to correct teaching to attain everlasting life.
Steward
Having a hard time following. Are you being sarcastic when saying eternal life and everlasting life are different even though it is the same Greek word in the passage quoted?
Page
... that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you ...is not a rejection of the new birth, with eternal life (unless you want to make regeneration conditional on "putting it from you") but they, regenerate, put off the command to follow the Lord in obedience. This is a clear admonition from Paul. eternal life is different than everlasting same greek word different context.
Steward
Then I guess the words of Christ are in error. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: He says they follow Him. Now if you want to make distinction between eternal life and everlasting life in connection with fol...lowing or not following you will have to take that up with the Lord who said His sheep follow Him. Regeneration is not conditional, it is sovereignly given to His elect sheep by His own power. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord. You can context it however you want but these words are directly from the mouth of the Almighty Sovereign God of the Universe. Deal with it or no, not my problem. (Luke 9:35 KJV) And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Peterman
Don't follow Charles, Leanna. He is a flaming heretic. He couches his heresy behind seeming adherence to the Doctrines of Grace. You will notice his convoluted thinking, circular logic, as well as outright heretical statements when you leas...t expect it. He is a strange man that refuses sound teaching. I am disappointed and downright disgusted to see that Sing is truly a lackey to this heretic and the deception is rampant. It is best not to get caught up in their confusion. God is not a God of confusion. Sing, I can assure you, I am very focused. You have not even come close to correctly expositing the Scripture I gave you, primarily because you want it to say something it does not. If you want any credence at all then deal with the core of it which says in I Corinthians : 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. The inherent worth of the Gospel message is not determined by the hearer. Again, you guys are absolutely insane. I preach the Gospel to all. The call of Christ is universal. It is for everyone and it is the very thing that condemns them. Every man on the face of the planet is commanded to believe. The problem is, men can't without the express grace of God. Many stumble, the elect come to Christ.
Page
So God is to blame for men not getting saved and you call me strange!! He can save everyone but for fun leads sinners on for sport?
Steward
That's right God is responsible. Paul responded to this years ago. (Rom 9:19-21 KJV) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? {20} Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {21} Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Sing F Lau
Dan @ "For many are called, but few are chosen.” May I ask, "called" from what to what? and "chosen" to/for what? What is the CONTEXT CONTEXT of that statement? Stay focused please. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
I Corinthians 1:18 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." ======== Let me draw your attention to a few PLAIN FACTS in this statement. 1. All the audience of the preaching of the word of the cross are divided into two groups: those who are perishing, and us who are being saved. 2. The SAME word of the cross COMES to those who are perishing and to those that are being saved. They are ALREADY in the state of perishing and they are ALREADY in the state of being saved before/when the word of the cross comes to them. Can you agree that that is a plain fact from that statement? My questions then are: - who are those that are perishing, and what can the word of the cross do for such? - who are those that are being saved, and what can the word of the cross do for such? Please stay focused and consider my inquiry. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Dan @ "Your claim to be a prophet is circumspect at the very least, however, when you have made such statements as "the regenerate can resist the grace of God" you utterly prove out your complete state of apostasy."
Dan, Charles can defend and explain himself well enough. May I draw your attention to the statement "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." It seems you vehemently disagree with that statement. Perhaps you have gravely mistaken that statement as a denial of efficacious grace/irresistible grace. That is not so at all. Irresistible grace is strictly in the context of God effectually calling an elect in his native state of sin and death to that grace and salvation. In the effectual call, none can resist! The dead can't possibly resist the sovereign powerful act of the Life-Giver in quickening him, and not even the devil can prevent this. But note Charles' statement carefully. He states, "the regenerate can resist the grace of God." Saying the "regenerate" who resists God's grace in the gospel call to conversion on the one hand, and saying the dead elect can resist God's grace in the effectual call to grace and salvation ARE VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology! This statement alone is enough to prove that the regenerate (God's children) CAN resist the grace of God. 6:1 ¶ We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. How did they receive the grace of God in vain? Ans: They RESIST the grace of God as a result, the grace of God through the ministry of the word did not accomplish its divinely intended purpose in them.
Sing F Lau
Charles @ "Sing, use some scripture as filler and make it applicable!"
You must make the application yourself!
Page
No, all i have to do is 'lock step' with you...now where did i leave my polished brown boots! LOL
Sing F Lau
A little brown Chinese lad like me wears brown straw sandals. If you lock step with me, my straw sandals would disintegrate in no time!
Page
Company, atten hut, wide berth, forward, MARCH, one two, left right, your left, your right, you're in the army now, your not behind the plow, you'll never get rich, you... cadence one two, three four, one, two, three. four, one two three four, keep wide berth for our sandled sissies, gimme your left, your right...
Steward
Two cents worth (or maybe only 1) It is not a call, it is a command. (1 John 3:23 KJV) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. Only His sheep will obey His command. (John 10:26-30 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. {29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. {30} I and my Father are one. All others judge themselves......(Acts 13:46-48 KJV) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. {47} For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. {48} And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Sing F Lau
Yes Sir, I will keep up. I have just kicked off the cumbersome straw sandal. Barefooted is easier!
Page
arms length, men don't step on Sing's toes, you know, hut ho, hut ho
Page
...and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life...free willers want to make that eternal life..no, they have eternal life but not everlasting life. Eternal life is assured and irresistible but everlasting life is conditional on obedience to correct teaching to attain everlasting life.
Steward
Having a hard time following. Are you being sarcastic when saying eternal life and everlasting life are different even though it is the same Greek word in the passage quoted?
Page
... that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you ...is not a rejection of the new birth, with eternal life (unless you want to make regeneration conditional on "putting it from you") but they, regenerate, put off the command to follow the Lord in obedience. This is a clear admonition from Paul. eternal life is different than everlasting same greek word different context.
Steward
Then I guess the words of Christ are in error. {27} My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: He says they follow Him. Now if you want to make distinction between eternal life and everlasting life in connection with fol...lowing or not following you will have to take that up with the Lord who said His sheep follow Him. Regeneration is not conditional, it is sovereignly given to His elect sheep by His own power. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord. You can context it however you want but these words are directly from the mouth of the Almighty Sovereign God of the Universe. Deal with it or no, not my problem. (Luke 9:35 KJV) And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Peterman
Don't follow Charles, Leanna. He is a flaming heretic. He couches his heresy behind seeming adherence to the Doctrines of Grace. You will notice his convoluted thinking, circular logic, as well as outright heretical statements when you leas...t expect it. He is a strange man that refuses sound teaching. I am disappointed and downright disgusted to see that Sing is truly a lackey to this heretic and the deception is rampant. It is best not to get caught up in their confusion. God is not a God of confusion. Sing, I can assure you, I am very focused. You have not even come close to correctly expositing the Scripture I gave you, primarily because you want it to say something it does not. If you want any credence at all then deal with the core of it which says in I Corinthians : 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. The inherent worth of the Gospel message is not determined by the hearer. Again, you guys are absolutely insane. I preach the Gospel to all. The call of Christ is universal. It is for everyone and it is the very thing that condemns them. Every man on the face of the planet is commanded to believe. The problem is, men can't without the express grace of God. Many stumble, the elect come to Christ.
Page
So God is to blame for men not getting saved and you call me strange!! He can save everyone but for fun leads sinners on for sport?
Steward
That's right God is responsible. Paul responded to this years ago. (Rom 9:19-21 KJV) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? {20} Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? {21} Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
fine line btw fate and faith Christian fate is denial of the doctrine of original sin. God is not the author of sin in this subject.
Steward
He isn't, we are. He takes clay out of the same lump of crap and fashions it as He sees fit. Submit or not to His sovereign decision to make you what He wills. What a joke, the pot telling the potter what to do.
Page
...we still preach salvation as though it was a decision... telling!!!
Peterman
Evil exists because God turns loose that which is created. You reveal once again your faulty understanding of right theology.
Page
different theological views, I believe that the Triune God decreed that the fall would be ordained and not permitted. This bringas highest glory to God and and no exaltation to humans.
Steward
That may be your belief but where were you when God decided between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism? Were you standing along side God and he gave you direct knowledge of what He was going to do? (Job 38:1-4 KJV) Then the LORD ans...wered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, {2} Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? {3} Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. {4} Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Sing F Lau
Page
Sing F Lau
Charles @I believe that the Triune God decreed that the fall would be ordained and not permitted. =====
What's the difference between decreed and ordained? I believe only in providence things are permitted or restrained. ...I would say God decreed the fall! Whether He decreed the fall first or He decreed election first, I will leave it to others for now.
Steward
True that God is omniscient and knows all things but this world we live in did have a beginning and so do we. True, He made no decision between supra or infra and certainly didn't reveal that to us. What He did reveal is that salvation is... on the basis of belief in Christ as the Promised One to His elect both before He came and since. He also revealed to us that He elects some to eternal life through belief in Christ and some not. To the ones who are not elect He says, "You do not believe because you are not my sheep." To the elect He says, "My sheep hear my voice and will follow." He also told the non elect, "You do not hear because you are not of God." Since we are not omniscient but as Jeremiah says, 'stupid and devoid of knowledge' He had to make what He revealed to us pretty simple to understand for those who have ears to hear and those who are of God and His sheep will hear and follow. You have no right or authority to believe anything one way or another about God's thinking as He created and laid the foundation of the world. And you have no right nor authority to make eternal life and everlasting life two different things.
Page
"You do not hear because you are not of God" like standing by a gravestone and speaking to the dead. God don't speak to dead people! They died by His pronounced curse upon them.
Sing F Lau
That's a very plain and clear declaration! God wastes no move... He doesn't waste time speaking to those whom He has bypassed in eternity. God's children are often schizophrenic. Not so with God! Consistency will save them from much nonsense!
Page
God does not waste even good granite to carve their name nor epithet.
Sing F Lau
The gospel, the good news of what God has done to save His people... is the news intended for those whom God has saved, i.e effectually called to grace and salvation, that they may know the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, and ...live godly, righteously and soberly in this world as they wait for their inheritance. Misguided folks think the gospel is the offer of salvation to all who hear!
Page
Sing, IMHO Arminians are misguided folk who think the gospel is the offer of salvation to all who hear! We are dealing with reformed people who know the gospel is not sufficient for all but in a "cruel" manner want to include "all" knowing... "all" won't be saved. This a great stride away from "misguided" It needs to be publiclly denounced as the pretense it truly is!!!
Steward
The Gospel is to go out to everyone and the elect will be revealed by that gospel. Who are you, O man, to argue with the Creator? Christ spoke to the Pharisees and commanded them to believe as well as everyone else. Should we do less than Christ?
Page
You are so religiously cruel, Leanna. where is tjhe love?
Sing F Lau
"The Gospel is to go out to everyone and the elect will be revealed by that gospel." =============
Excuse me! What is the gospel again? The gospel is......
Sing F Lau
Charles, the so-called 'reformed' are no less deformed in their view concerning the gospel and its the inconsistent presentation of it than the Arminians they despise!
Sing F Lau
Why are the reformed people so religiously cruel... (actually deluded and unbelieving) - that they offer salvation to those whom God had by-passed in his election, Christ did not give himself, and the Spirit did not regenerate?????? It is CRUEL MOCKERY to offer salvation to the dead. It is like offering a Big Mac to a dead man, teasing him to eat. I will kick the idiot ass for insulting the dead. Why are the reformed people so religiously presumptuous... (actually deluded and unbelieving) - that they offer salvation to God's children, those elect who are already regenerated? Doesn't the offer come too late? Why offer salvation to those God ALREADY bestowed salvation freely by His sovereign grace? Why such presumption? Why such pretention and ostentation - offering salvation to any body!!! Who do they think they are???
Page
Sing, I am in the serious and fearful mode of working this out in my own life. How am I to be 'evangelistic' in obedience? For me personally here in Memphis I have no one to instruct me so it is just myself, what little knowledge i have of... scripture and the third person of the God head indwelling. At the church i attend when that awful ceremony called an altar call for the unregenerate to come forward for 'salvation' I pray earnestly as though the whole flow of this ceremony rest on my sholders. I renounce the demonic forces at work and then strangly (as though it is a surprise for me) I pray for courtesy to be shown to the unregenerate. that they won't be drawn in by this appeal and they will remain unmoved. Sunday after Sunday I witness the lack of success that this ceremony has and I believel that my prayers are effectual.
Page
Our attention to the unregenerate should be respectful as we would respect magistrates. They should not be denounced nor looked down on but just respected with common courtesy. We don't know who the unregenerate are so as we are led by the Spirit and we do have that Spirit to lead us though most free willers deny it. You know when you should talk to someone particularly. You know. You know but many Christians want to plead ingorance to justify their theology.
Sing F Lau
Charles, nothing of what I have stated indicates any disrespect for any one. And I don't need to know who among my hearers are God's children (elect who are already effectually called to grace and salvation by God's free and sovereign grace...) and who are not. That ignorance does not in any way prevent me from having a clear and firm conviction in my mind that my preaching is the declaration of the gospel, i.e. of the good news of what God has done to save His people... that God sovereignly purposed redemption for a specific people... that Christ sovereingnly accomplished that eternal redemption, and the Spirit of God applied that redemption to each individual elect... and I am sent to bring the good news to them, and to call such to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace. And whosoever believe has eternal life... THAT IS, whosoever believes does so because they have been saved and possesses eternal life. Believing is an evidence of eternal life ALREADY bestowed by God. The gospel comes to those who ARE SAVED... and they receive it as the good news of God's power in saving them. The gospel is intended for such only, and no body else. Let the preacher be truthful in the presentation of the gospel. The gospel must be presented truthfully... not deceitfully to mislead.
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@ Sing, never meant anything toward anyone but myself, agree with you. My beliefs are challeged in oppositional environments and that serves to make me a better person, I hope anyway!
Peterman
Our "attention" as you put it must ever be Christ and Him crucified proclaimed to the WHOLE WORLD. God will bring the elect to life and leave the reprobate to stumble. You do not understand the grace of God.
Spittles
SALVATION - Whom can fathom the ways of the Lord (Calvinist's "appear" to KNOW)...is your Faith IN "Knowing How God works"? (concerning salvation, etc?) /// OR is your Faith "like mine" - IN "His finished work on that cross, He took my dese...rved place". /// DISCIPLESHIP (follower of Christ, many bible verses are addressed to His kids, KNOWING which are Salvation & which are Discipleship IS rightly dividing His Word, PLUS Knowing which bible verse is speaking of mankinds spirit / soul (mind or heart) / body. /// REALIZE All mankind has a Way that seems right unto them, but in the end it leads to death (self-righteousness OR false humility). My Discipleship Faith is in telling people IF you want to do something to get to heaven, "confess with shame" i can do nothing, woe to me (see all salvation stories for SIMILAR humbled responses that occur AFTER Holy Spirit convicts an Unbeliever BEFORE I became a Believer). Yes, I tell others there need for repentance "just like" Jesus & John Baptist & others told mankind (Matt 3:2 & 4:17)... Thee Calvinist FAITH is that such a person was already a Believer WHEN they responded back to Holy Spirit "woe to me" (does that make sense? ...so AFTER becoming Truly His the 1st thing one does is say WOE to me? - I conclude an Unbeliever can "make a Law unto themselves, etc because there spirit is dead but there Soul is merely depraved & they can reply have mercy AFTER God initiates conviction...as to the degree of SINCERETY of the Unbeliever before God "freely pardons", that is His decision.
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Eric, you are dealing with moderated Calvinist here. They hold to hypothetical universal atonement and are Amyraldian. They hold to a universal atonement for everyone and a particular one for a few. If you hold to the finished work on the cross (Penal substitutionary Atonement) then you are a good Calvinist like myself. I evangelize more than ye all!
Sing F Lau
Dan @ "Our "attention" as you put it must ever be Christ and Him crucified proclaimed to the WHOLE WORLD. ==========
Him crucified for whom? Give attention to that truth, and preach consistently. The good news of Him crucified is INTENDED for the same people for whom He was crucified. And such are scattered throughout the whole world indeed. To pretend to offer it to all without distinction is to deceive!
