Morality vs Spirituality and Responsibility vs Inability

Responsibility and Inability

On Aug 13, 2008, at 9:56 PM, ricky wrote:
Ricky
"... Some years ago I had opportunity to preach among the Absoluter's (so-called) near us over in the western part of the state.  I had known them for many years and still I preach many funerals for them and see them often; few have even left.  This particular day a brother had preached in the morning and preached a really good message until he got almost finished and injected some rather extreme views along the line that this article mentions.  That after noon to my surprise they arranged for me to preach. I preached along the same line as the brother that had preached that morning.  The Sovereignty of God and the Responsibility (accountability) of the individual. What I would preach in any of the churches I pastor.  I said during the course of my preaching "that my inability had never made void my responsibility". I still believe that.  The late  Elder W.D. Griffin who at one time was editor of the Signs of the Times was present.  He was a native of Fayette Alabama, and a great preacher by the way, said this after I had finished what I had to say: "brother Ricky I believe what  you have preached and most of  our people do.  Please don't throw us all away for what a precious few inject from time to time". As careful as I think we have to be sometimes, Let us not become an "offender for a word". Or take the position that all are guilty because of their associations.  I think it is not necessary to compromise on fundamentals. In my estimation we cannot afford such a course but I heard Elder Leland Swanner of Jonesboro Louisiana Say one time and I think of it often " Let's not stand so straight that we fall backwards".

sing
Dear brother Ricky,
Your thoughts above have stir this little mind a little.
I used to be greatly perplexed because there is obvious and irreconcilable contradiction concerning the teaching on the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of men - as it is represented and taught by the 'reformed' brethren (some would not own them brethren... but that's another topic.

This is because the reformed folks understand the 'responsibility of men' in the context of dead alien sinners. When I begin to understand that the 'responsibility of men' can only refers to God's children, then the sovereignty of God and responsibility of men make perfect sense and are in perfect harmony.

Spiritual responsibility can only be expected of God's children. I think it irrational to expect spiritual duties of natural men dead in sin. Moral responsibilities is rightly and justly expected of all moral creatures made in the image of God. So when people talk about 'responsibility of men, what do they have in mind - moral responsibilities of spiritual responsibilities? I believe in the context of the 'sovereignty of God and responsibility of men' they meant the latter.

A moral creature of God is never free from the moral laws of the moral government of God over all His creatures. But I can hardly believe that would hold a man dead in trespasses and sins to fulfill any spiritual responsibility, e.g. believing the gospel, trusting Jesus as Saviour.

A venerable Elder rightly said, "morality is not spirituality!" Many mistake or confound the two - and end up having to believe 'blessed inconsistencies.'

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Moral responsibility is true of every moral creature made in the image of God, whether elect or not.

Spiritual responsibility is true with respect  to God's children only - because they have be enabled. God works in them to will and to do... and they are responsible to will and to do... If they don't fulfill their responsibility as God's children, they shall most certainly be whacked by the responsible Father!!!

I once said to a 'reformed' brother,
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"Spiritual responsibility can only be expected of spiritual beings. I think it irrational to expect spiritual duties of natural men dead in sin. Moral responsibilities is rightly and justly expected of all moral creatures made in the image of God. So what are you about - moral responsibilities of spiritual responsibilities?

"Problems? I believe they are just your imagined problems because you fail to rightly divide the word of truth. Is any man, a moral creature of God, ever free from the moral laws of the moral government of God over all His creatures?

"Someone rightly said, morality is not spirituality! Don't mistake or confound the two. A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Moral responsibility is true of every moral creature of God, whether elect or not.

Spiritual responsibility is true with respect to God's children ONLY.. 

"Think about this: would God requires a sinner - dead in sins and trespasses, whom Christ did not die for, the Spirit did not regenerate - to believe that God loves him and Jesus Christ did die to save him? Would God require any moral creature to believe a LIE? Who is mad? Let God be true and every man a LIAR, a prophet of madness that bears false witness against God. That's the way I see it."

"Moral responsibility is demanded of moral creatures.
Sinners has no warrant to remain in sin.
Spiritual responsibility is expected of spiritual creatures.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology."

There are others... but the above will suffice.

I affirm the moral responsibility of man. His SPIRITUAL inability does not absolve him of his moral responsibility. His moral responsibility is NOT conditioned upon his moral ability or inability. His moral responsibility is based upon the covenant obligation of a moral creature, made in the image of God, to his Creator.

I also affirm repeatedly that "The gospel is relevant only to those whom God has given spiritual life."

But you most certainly NOT ONLY dispute and reject this without any proof, BUT ALSO confuse it as a nullification of sinner's moral responsibility to repent and obey God. Whatever has happen to intelligent discussion??? It is like Walter's basic confusion of believer's faith and Christ's righteousness in the matter of justification!

You asked kindly: "So what say you, sing?  Is it because of mans sin that he is condemned or God's election?"

I have written, and repeat it here to answer your misguided and unnecessary  rhetorical question:
"Every man is active enough in his rebellion against His Creator... he is more than responsible enough to be damned a thousand times for his sins."

Sinner's moral inability DOES NOT absolve his moral responsibility to obey and repent towards God - not one iota. He may be absolved of his responsibility if he was turned into a amoral beast. If your question is not answered, please let me know. I will answer more plainly. But I don't know whether that would help... because even plainest points don't seem to register with you.

GET OUT of the little box and you may hear and register better, and we may have a more profitable discussion.

I repeat, just in case it did not register with you.
"Someone rightly said, morality is not spirituality!"

Don't mistake or confound the two.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Moral responsibility is true of every moral creature of God, whether God's children or not.

Spiritual responsibility is true with respect  to God's children."

Please be exact which part you want to dispute or deny.
I venture a guess: you want to affirm the SPIRITUAL duty of all NATURAL man to believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. [I.e. God requires some men to believe lies!]

I affirm this: it is the moral responsibility of all natural man to repent and obey God.

I further affirm: it is the spiritual responsibility of God's children to believe the truth of their salvation.

I also affirm that God does not expect any moral man to believe that which is a LIE! Thanks for reading. May our Lord grant you some understanding of the things said.
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sandy thoughts of
a Chinese lad in the south seas filled with hard cockle shells
sing

Rick 
Bro Sing, I came in at lunch and saw your writing.  I am sorry that I upset you.  I was replying to Gene's post that I enjoyed so much and injected an experience I had many ears a go.  The context in which I used this was when a brother had preached that the individual was not responsible for actions he did.  IN other words the brother stripped the child of God of responsibility because all things were in time and eternity predestinated of God.  I used  the terms that my inability to pay a debt did not destroy my responsibility to pay the debt. (I still believe that's the truth) I did not apply that to the dead alien sinner or anything along that line.  I think brethren who know me understand where I come from on this.  I apologize for my failure to communicate that to you or anyone else that is a big failing of mine.

MGB, Ricky

Mark
Dear Brother Ricky, I don't think Bro. Sing was upset by your post at all.  I think he is in perfect agreement with you.  I believe he shared with us a post where he had a discussion with a reformed baptist who was of a different mind on the subject.  Brother Sing appears to have done a very fine job of presenting the same truths we hold in a very clear and convincing manner.  Perhaps he will tell us if the reformed brother had any change in mind following the discussion.  I remain,

Yours in Brotherly Bonds, Mark

Ricky
Mark, for some reason I am only getting a part of these messages.  Evidently there is a problem on this end where I am.  Thank you sending me this but it even lacked a few words toward the end.  Good to hear from you and Sorry for the misinterpretation.

sing
Brother Ricky, you upset me??????????
Impossible! Not even if you punch me in my face!
I think it is just that we refer to different thing.
I hope you didn't have indigestion <grin>
Love a PB like you. sing

Behold, now is the day of salvation

(For he saith,I have heard thee in a time accepted,
and in  the day of salvation have I succoured thee:
behold, now is the accepted time;
behold, now is the day of salvation.) 2Co 6:2

 Ecclesiastes 12:6 KJT — Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

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Old School Hymnal 469

1 Some day the silver cord will break,
And I no more as now shall sing;
But oh, the joy when I shall wake
Within the palace of the King!

Refrain:
And I shall see Him face to face,
And tell the story—-Saved by grace;
And I shall see Him face to face,
And tell the story—-Saved by grace.

2 Some day my earthly house will fall,
I cannot tell how soon ’twill be;
But this I know-—my All in All
Has now a place in heav’n for me.
(Refrain)

3 Some day, when fades the golden sun
Beneath the rosy-tinted west,
My blessed Lord will say, “Well done!”
And I shall enter into rest. (Refrain)

4 Some day: till then I’ll watch and wait,
My lamp all trimmed and burning bright,
That when my Saviour opes the gate,
My soul to Him may take its flight. (Refrain)

https://youtu.be/y3rnXCm9ncg

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Joe
Brother Sing. Many, many years ago I preached a sermon on our need to spend constant time with our Bible (in study, not in speed reading). After the service ended, a woman I knew well approached me. Although she did much to serve, she confessed that she spent very little time with her Bible. "Someday soon," she said, she planned to change that. Six months later I heard that she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease. Her "Someday soon" never came. What joy she missed.

Some Questions on "By grace... through faith."

 

Ephesians 2:1-9 “By grace… through faith”.
Through whose and what faith?

"8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast."

Verse 8 is so often quoted to mean that a man is saved by grace through faith, i.e. his act of believing.

Read the passage with a dose of common sense, and you will see some obvious reasons why such understanding plainly contradicts what the passage says.
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Some preliminary observations:
a. “by grace” speaks of the MANNER God saves. It is God who saves in and through His Son Jesus Christ.
- God saves by grace, His free and sovereign grace; “by grace” excludes activities/works of man by man.
- Rom 11:6 grace and works are mutually exclusive in the salvation of sinners.

b. “through faith” speaks of the MEANS through/by which salvation is freely bestowed, i.e. by grace.

c. Quickening one dead in trespasses and sins is the bestowal of eternal salvation… saved by grace, v1.5,8.

Let us unpack the passage by asking some relevant questions:

Q1. What state were you in when were you saved by grace through faith?
- v1 “who were dead in trespasses and sins”
- v5 “we were dead in sins…”
- Dead concerning any ability to bring himself to God; hostile and in enmity against Him. “by nature the children of wrath.” Under the dominion of the prince of the power of the air

Q2. When you were dead in sins, were you able to exercise faith to believe in Christ?
- No. Many imagine they can.  
- John 3:3,6; 1Cor 2:14

Q3. Supposing faith is the gift of God, is the gift of faith to a spiritually dead man of any use to him? 
- No. A spiritually dead man can't receive the gift, let alone use the gift. Period.

Q4. Do you believe in a God who would give the gift of faith to a spiritually dead man so that he could exercise that faith in order to be saved by His grace?
- No, the all-wise God doesn't do such silly foolish thing;  only foolish preachers do.
- Faith is NOT the gift; eternal salvation by Jesus Christ is the gift.
- A gift comes to you from without; faith is a spiritual fruit of the Spirit, worked within a child of God. Gal 5:22.

Q5. What then is the gift of God? What is by grace?
- The gift is the eternal salvation by grace; the context speaks of salvation by God's grace.
- The eternal salvation is freely bestowed, applied to an elect when he was dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of faith.

Q6. What is the ground and basis of this gift of God?
- It is the finished work of Christ in redeeming His people.
- It is by His life (active obedience to secure righteousness) and death (passive obedience to secure the forgiveness of sins). Heb 9:12, 15

Q7 "... through faith..."
- is a man's act of believing in Christ performed by him?  Yes.
- is an act performed by a man his work? Yes.
- if a man is saved by grace through his act of believing, then isn't he saved by grace through his own work? Yes
- John 6:28-9    - 1 John 3:23 
- “NOT of works.” So, it is NOT through man's act of believing.

Q8. Why does "by grace" necessarily remove "through faith" from any association with man's exercise of faith?
- Rom 11:6 grace and works are mutually exclusive in the eternal salvation of sinners.
- So, “through faith” can have NOTHING to do with the believing act of man.

Q9. If a man is saved by grace through his act of believing, then he has at least some valid ground to boast, hasn't he?
- Yes, indeed.
- Then “through faith” CANNOT be associated with any activities of man. Otherwise, contradicts “lest any man…”

Q10. If he did not perform his act of believing, would he be saved by grace through his faith?
- No.
- Therefore “through faith” CANNOT be associated with any activities of man; otherwise, it’s through his works.

Q11. Since it's not through your act of faith, then you are saved through WHOSE faith, and WHAT is that faith?
- The faith OF Christ
- The faithfulness of Jesus Christ in His work of redemption, fulfilling all the conditions in saving/redeeming His people.

Q12. Have you read of the phrase “faith of Christ," i.e. His faithfulness in executing the work of redeeming those given to Him by the Father?
- Romans 3:22
- Galatians 2:16; 2:20; 3:22
- Philippians 3:9

This is the gospel truth that has been repudiated in almost all modern translations. Instead of "the faith OF Christ", all the modern translations have twisted the "faith of Christ" into "faith in Christ." 

Check for yourself... read the King James translation.

 

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself..."

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also."
THAT IS...
You WON'T be where Jesus is UNTIL He comes AGAIN
to receive you unto Himself,
so that where He is, there you may be also!!!

Kenchin
Hello Pr Lau in the bible study last Wed. You mentioned that Paradise was an intermediate state where the Lord Jesus was absent.  As you are aware, the Greek word for Paradise is used 3 times - Luke 23:43 – As He hung upon the cross, Jesus assured the repentant criminal, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” The promise locates Paradise in the immediate presence of Christ, accessible at the moment of death for the believer.

2 Corinthians 12:4 – Paul speaks of being “caught up to Paradise and heard inexpressible words, things that man is not permitted to tell.” His vision authenticates Paradise as a real, conscious realm beyond earthly experience.

John Gill - heaven is called paradise, because as the garden of Eden, which bears that name, was of God's planting, so is this made and prepared by him; as that was a delightful place, so is this; also because of Christ the tree of life, which is in the midst of it, besides an innumerable company of angels, and spirits of just men made perfect. Revelation 2:7 – The risen Lord promises the overcomer “the right to eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God. Paradise is where God and our Lord Jesus Christ are present.
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Sing
Brother Kenchin, thanks for your thoughts on the bible study.
Paradise (para-deisos) does indeed occur 3 times, as you have indicated.
 
It’s indeed common to equate paradise with heaven (ouranos).
The same people also see “hell” (ge'enna) as synonymous with the “lake of fire” (limnē pyr). That’s what I was taught and parroted for 20+ years. I didn’t know better.

Our gracious Lord has given me a little more light on the matter.

1. These are some word facts:
a. Paradise (para-deisos) occurs 3 times in the NT

b. Hell (geenna) occurs 23 times in 23 verses in the NT; 15 times are used by Christ Himself, many of them in the context of His solemn warnings to His own disciples.

c. Heaven (ouranos) occurs 255 times in 237 verses in the NT. Not all refer to that eternal abode of God and resurrected saints.

d. Lake of fire (limnē pyr) - occurs 4 times in 4 verses (Rev 20,21).
(Check these with the helpful BlueLetterBible app.)

2. A careful reading of these relevant texts makes a few things self-evident:
a. Hell and paradise are spoken of in the context of the intermediate/disembodied state: the state between physical death and the resurrection at Christ's second coming.

b.  Hell and paradise are in the context/realm of time between physical death and the general resurrection (which marks the end of time, and the dawn of eternity for man).

c. Hell and paradise are the realms of the spirits of the dead. Their bodies are under the power death.
 
d. The redeemed may end up in hell but NONE in the lake of fire.
- Read all those solemn warnings of Christ addressed to His own disciples. Mt 5:22,29,30. Mt 10:28; 18:9; Mk 9:43.45.47; Disciples must take drastic measures to deal with personal sins to avoid hell.
- There is not one instant of Christ warning His disciples against the lake of fire. Why is that?

e. At the end of time, BOTH death (that holds captive the bodies) and hell (that holds captive the spirits) shall be EMPTIED; death and hell shall surrender all its captives to Him who holds the keys of hell and of death (Rev 1:18) for the general resurrection. Rev 20:13.
- The EMPTIED death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14.
- The spirits that have been ushered into paradise (after the judgment at death) shall accompany Christ in His second coming. 1Th 4:14. These shall be united with their resurrected bodies.

f. Heaven is the abode of the resurrected glorified saints. Those who have part in the first resurrection (Mt 27:52,53) are now in heaven (Rev 20:4-6, a 3-verse paragraph that speaks of the first resurrection)
- The redeemed dead do not enter heaven at death; their spirit either go to paradise or hell.
- Their judgment at death is according to works.
- Their judgment at the resurrection is according to their name in the book of life, redeemed by Christ.

3. You quoted John Gill. Let’s listen to him then on this point:
Commenting on Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

He said: "... There is a particular judgment which is immediately after death; by virtue of which, the souls of men are condemned to their proper state of happiness or woe; and there is an universal judgment, which will be after the resurrection of the dead, and is called eternal judgment, and to come..."

The particular (and temporal) judgment which is immediately after death determines the proper state of happiness (paradise) or woe (hell) during the intermediate state.
The universal (and eternal) judgment which follows the general resurrection determines the proper state during the eternal state.

4. I leave you with a few related questions:
a. Why do some preachers preach hell?
- What do they want to achieve by it?
- To whom did Christ preach hell? For what purpose?

5. Christ’s words: John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What are some obvious conclusions from these words of Christ?
- What is Christ referring to, paradise or heaven?
- Why must the disciples WAIT till Christ WILL COME AGAIN to be with Him if at death they are ALREADY with Him?
- What shall happen when Christ come again?
- When shall the redeemed be received unto the Father’s house where Christ is?

Feel free to ask any further questions.
I’m still learning. May our Lord bless us learn and grow together Amen.

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

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Calice
Thanks, pastor, for sharing the exchanges.

Just a quick comment:

Kenchin mentioned 3 main points:

Due to time constraints, I will just comment on the first:
1.  He heard Pastor Lau said Jesus Christ was absent in Paradise.  Did he hear or understand wrongly?

Pastor, please help clarify this first point first. Thanks

Sing
Kenchin @ Hello, Pr Lau, in the bible study last Wed. You mentioned that Paradise was an intermediate state where the Lord Jesus was absent.
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There may be various reasons why he perceived what he heard I said that way...
- His basic presupposition is that paradise is synonymous with the eternal heaven.
- Therefore, if Jesus is not in paradise, then He is not in heaven!
- If Jesus is not in heaven, then where can He be?

Wrong presuppositions have their necessary implications and create unnecessary and false problems.

After death, Jesus' spirit went to paradise. Then His spirit returned and was united to his glorified body at resurrection at dawn of the first day of the week (our Sunday 6 am - 6 pm, first night of the week is Sat 6 pm - Sun 6 am. Jewish week starts on Sat 6pm… )

Genesis 1:5 KJV — And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening (6 pm- 6 am) and the morning (6 am-6 pm) were the first day.

After His resurrection, He was with the disciples for 40 days, Acts 1:3.

Then He ascended to His Father in heaven. Acts 1:9ff

The words of the resurrected Lord to Mary...
John 20:17 KJV — Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The spirit of Jesus, as real and true a human as anyone who is reading these words, went to the paradise in His disembodied state.

The resurrected Jesus has been received up into heaven.

Rejoice, He shall return one day... He said these words to His disciples.

John 14
1 ¶Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Did you read - you WON'T be where Jesus is UNTIL He comes AGAIN to receive you unto Himself so that where He is there you may be also???

Sunny
Enoch & prophet Elijah who did not seek death. Are they in Paradise? Or are they already in heaven with our Lord?

Sing
You are right, neither of them seek death.
Also, both Enoch and Elijah did not see/experience death.

Genesis 5:24 KJT — And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

God took him - body and spirit, the whole person. It necessarily implies that God changed/transformed/glorified him, making him fit for habitation in heaven.

Similarly for Elijah.
2 Kings 2:11 KJT — And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

This earthy body of flesh is completely unfit for habitation in heaven; it must be transformed/changed/glorified by God first, i.e. made fit to inhabit heaven.

The same will happen to the redeemed who are still living at Christ's second coming.

1 Corinthians 15 KJT
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Since they didn't see death (spirit did not separate from the body), they must have been changed/transformed/ glorified, i.e. made fit to dwell in heaven.

What does the gospel do?

What does the gospel do?

 

What does the gospel do? People give various answers; I read one here:

(The picture appears in the right sidebar of the page.) Mr. Washer says, and many believe the same that the "gospel does not call us to receive Christ as an addition to, but as our life."

THAT IS, "the gospel calls us to receive Christ as our life."

REALLY? What happens when you receive Christ as your life?

The gospel is the good news of what God has done for His elect; the gospel calls His children (i.e. those elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ) to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ, which was freely and sovereignly bestowed upon them when they were in their native state of sin and death.

They have been given eternal life in Jesus Christ, and they are called to believe the truth of their salvation.

To all others, the gospel is foolishness.

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The gospel announces the grace of God that has accomplished the salvation for His elect, calling those to whom the salvation has been APPLIED personally, to believe on their Saviour Jesus Christ, teaching them...

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.