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Nov 6, 2010
"And He gave some,
apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and
teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for
the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of
the stature of the fulness of Christ..." Eph 4:11-13.
Any hint on gospel
regeneration?
----------
Sing F Lau
Christ did say why He gave
these teaching offices. The first three are extraordinary for the apostolic
time. The only office normative for the NT church is that of pastors and
teachers. They are to do the work of the evangelists too. 2Ti 4:5 "But
watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist,
make full proof of thy ministry."
So, for what exact purpose did
Christ give these men?
It is for the perfecting of the
saints.
Saints are God's own production
- saints are those elect whom God has called out of their native state of sin
and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ by His own free and
sovereign will. They have been separated from sin and death unto grace and
salvation in Christ.
These saints need the gospel
ministry to perfect them, i.e to nurture them from spiritual babes to
spiritual maturity.
Where is the presumptuous idea
of gospel regeneration in the preaching the gospel to assist God in producing His
children?
Why is the lie of gospel
regeneration so addictive and pernicious?
Charles Page
Sing, I like this discussion! I
have a special interest.
Sing F Lau
Charles, tell us about your
special interest in the passage!Charles Page
@Sing, I don't think the
prophetic word is just for apostolic times. Perhaps I may concede that the
apostolic word or office has ceased yet not really ceased but may continue through succession of pastors/teachers. Apostles are primary and foundational (though
Prophets played a role in the foundation), and the continuity of the perfect
building of the body of elect saints till the end.
Charles Page
I am non-cessationist and I am
sure that has a bearing on my belief.
Sing F Lau
@Charles, thanks for raising the
issue.
Consider these:
1. 1Co 12:10 To another the
working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to
another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Please note that the gift of
prophecy belonged to this group of unique gifts for the apostolic church!
2. 1Co 13:8 Charity never
faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Prophecies shall fail. Paul
wrote in the future, but it is ALREADY PAST!
3. The NT gives us the
qualification for ONE teaching office only: that of pastor-teacher; therefore, the ONLY teaching office NORMATIVE for the NT.
There is NO overlap of
office... they are distinct and separate, even though there is overlap of
functions.
Sing F Lau
@Charles, tell us what you
believe has ceased, and what still continues. Thanks.Charles Page
Sing, I am an experientialist and try not to venture beyond my experiences, but on this I dare to tread (that
is why I blocked Richie from this dialogue). I was raised a Pentecostal and was
a Pentecostal pastor for 25 years. I left that but still have very devoted
Pentecostal parents and a very spiritual mother. My Pentecostal roots run deep
and I am grateful for my heritage of folks with an experiential knowledge of the
Holy Spirit.
I am not a trained scholar so I
hope i follow your understanding correctly. I have heard the cessationist
arguments all my life and have been defensive as a Pentecostal to defend
non-cessationism. I never claimed to be a "later day movement" "
third wave" nor "charismatic" nor "full gospel" nor
did I ever "move in the gifts" I was a Pentecostal pastor/teacher who, in doctrinal weakness personally neglected evangelism. I did believe that the
gifts of the Spirit, I Cor 12-14 were for the edification of the body and
believed that my function was to oversee that operation and ensure that the
Bible was the basis of operation. Never did I believe that any teaching came
via the gifts of the Spirit nor did i believe any gifts carried any weight
toward directing the affairs of the preaching/ teaching office. They were for
the comfort, edification, and exhortation of the body and not for discipline
nor correction.
I am not emphatically able to
say that any office has ceased, but as I see it, the "office" of
apostleship does not exist (though perhaps we are in a time when we need one
due to the extensive destruction that exegetical interpretations have done to
the English-speaking nations)
Sing F Lau
You don't have to be a trained
scholar. All you need to do is to be a humble student at the feet of Christ.
There is no need to block
anyone from expressing their thought... because each thought should drive us
closer to the Scriptures.
Experience has its proper
place. But I have learned to say with Apostle Peter the distinction between
experience and the inspired Scriptures...
19 ¶ We have also a more sure
word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that
shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your
hearts:
So, with great respect, I say
to you, despite all your precious experiences, "We have also a more sure
word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that
shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your
hearts..."
The function of the Apostles
were to deliver to the church everything that Christ has commanded them. Their
specific job was done... the office ceased.
Ed Elliott
Sing, if prophecies and
tongues have ceased, as you claim, then knowledge must have ceased as well b/c
it is listed as "vanishing" as well. Since we know that Knowledge
hasn't ceased, it is possible the other haven't stopped either.
Cessationists argue that the
moment the last Apostle died, or when the final sentence of the last book of
the Bible had been written, all miracles, including speaking in tongues, ceased.
Are they correct? Let's first
establish the date that miracles supposedly ceased. The Apostle Paul died
somewhere between 64 AD and 69 AD, and the last Apostle, the Apostle John, died
in 110 AD. So let's compare the cut-off date, the year of the last Apostle's
death, with the timeline of events in the Early Church: Justin Martyr (100
AD-- 165 AD) was only 10 years old when the Apostle John died. He was an early
Christian apologist. His works are the earliest Christian apologies, of
substantial size, to survive to today.
Forty years after the Apostle
John's death, he writes in 150 AD:
"For the prophetical gifts
remain with us, even to this present time." (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter
82).
And, "Now, it is possible
to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God;"
Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 88.
It is simply beyond dispute
that the prophetic gifts continued until 150 AD.--40 years after the last
Apostle died.
Justin Martyr was no heretic.
His writings are still accepted to this day by all theologians I know of, as
sound teachings.
Irenaeus (c.130-202 AD) was
born 20 years after the last Apostle died. He was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul,
which is now Lyon, France. His writings were formative in the early development
of Christian theology. Like Justin Martyr, he was an early Christian apologist.
His writings carry significant weight because he was a disciple of Polycarp,
who had been a disciple of the Apostle John.
Irenaeus writes of believers in
his day:
"Wherefore, also, those
who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name
perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the
gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly
drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits
frequently both believe [in Christ] and join themselves to the Church. Others
have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic
expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and
they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been
raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It
is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church, [scattered]
throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus
Christ," Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 32, section 4.
Additionally Irenaeus writes:
"We speak wisdom among
them that are perfect, terming those persons "perfect" who have
received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all
languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear
many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the
Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit
the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God," --Irenaeus
Against Heresies, Book V. Chapter 6. section 1.
The writings of Irenaeus carry
significant weight, especially concerning spiritual gifts considering:
Irenaeus had learned directly
from Polycarp who had sat under the instruction of the Apostle John.
John had traveled with Christ
and had spoken in tongues at Pentecost.
Surely the Apostle John knew
genuine prophecy and genuine speaking in tongues when he experienced them and
heard them in others. It is only reasonable to assume that John passed clear
teachings on to Polycarp, who in turn, passed such teachings and understandings
on to Irenaeus. Had John given any warning that the gifts would cease upon his
death, both Polycarp and Iraneaus would have known of it.
Irenaeus testifies, in writings
that exist to this day, that "prophetic expressions" and believers
"who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages" were so common
and widespread in his life (130 - 202 AD) that "...it is not possible to
name the number of gifts..."
His comments were written
probably 80 to 90 years after the last Apostle died.
If these gifts ceased 90 years
previously, then to what was Irenaeus referring?
Charles Page
@Sing, I am an experientialist,
but a true pentecostal experience is not truth based on experience (as most
anti-Pentecostalists assume) but a truth based in Word and Spirit. My antithesis
to you would be that you are a mere "humble student at the feet of Christ"
with an emphasis of your humility in exegetical abilities.
My "sure word of
prophecy" is that I have the author of the sacred scriptures and have no want
for any other to teach me. I am not humbled by my experience but by His
presence! A true Pentecostal is not experience-oriented but Spirit-oriented; a
humble servant sitting at Christ's feet today is experience-oriented, dependent on his own and others' tested experiences.
Hopefully I am not antithetical
here to the point of alienation!
Jesus left this earth so that
we would not sit at His feet but that we would be taught by the Spirit.
Sing F Lau
Charles@ "Hopefully I am
not antithetical here to the point of alienation! "
I burst out laughing when I
read this line!
I will nominate you to be an
Apostle, if you care to be one. We really need one in our perilous time... to
give us infallible interpretation of the inspired Scriptures.
Sing F Lau
Elliott@ "if prophecies
and tongues, have ceased, as you claim than knowledge must have ceased as well
b/c it is listed as 'vanishing' as well. Since we know that Knowledge
hasn't ceased it is possible the other haven't stopped either."
-------
I expected that question every
time this issue is discussed.
You have written so much! I did
not read beyond the first paragraph. That first paragraph needs to be dealt with
first, so that there is common ground to carry on a sensible discussion.
Can you please tell us what the ' knowledge ' is in context?
In the way you understand it,
will 'knowledge' ever vanish away? If yes, when?
1Co 13:8 "Charity never
faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish
away."
What knowledge is Paul speaking
about?
Will it ever vanish away? If
yes, when?
Adam Wells
Bro Sing - You mentioned in a
previous post to give a simple test... "This is a test... get a new
believer who has never heard ..." why not apply the same test to the
cessationist controversy? Would any new believer truly read the New Testament and walk away saying that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the death of
the apostles? Is your test accurate then or should it only be applied to
eschatology?
Sing F Lau
Adam, who is saying the gifts of the
Spirit ended with the apostles?
Why are you so woolly <lol>
Just what are you talking
about? By 'the gifts of the Spirit', what do you mean - do you mean those
specific things mentioned in this passage?
1Co 13:8 "Charity never
faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish
away."
So, be a bit more precise
please... profitable discussion requires that.
All have to agree that the
passage plainly declares that these things shall 'fail... cease... vanish away'
at some point, 'shall' with respect to Paul's time. Any who doesn't agree that
those things mentioned shall 'fail... cease... vanish away' at some point after
Paul wrote his epistle, can leave the room.
Ok, so apply that test here...
now that the issue is very clear.
If any wish to discuss when
those specific gifts pass away after Paul wrote that epistle, then please remain, and we
shall discuss.
I have no ready-made answers.
If you have, let us hear from you. Have they 'failed... ceased... vanished
away'? If yes, when?
If not, when shall they?
Or shall these ever pass away?
Pick your choice, and let us
hear from you.
And please keep to the
subject...
Charles Page
They will cease when we see
through a clear glass and understand in whole, not in parts. That did not happen
with the canonization of scripture. It is yet to happen when we have no need of
gifts, and we all speak one language, and we are all fuzzy love balls not needing
any interpretations. (as well as translators)
Adam Wells
I must conclude that those
things that Paul was referring to will pass away, have not yet passed away...
for as Charles pointed out, we still only know in part.
Sing F Lau
Adam, this is a very interesting
study... I hope you will stay on until I CHASE you out... which I won't!
Very well then... tell us what
is the knowledge in that verse! I don't want to assume to know.
Is the knowledge in that verse
ABOUT believers' CAPACITY TO KNOW... like you have expressed... "we still
only know in part" - is that what Apostle Paul meant? Could it be the
SOURCE of their knowledge (hint.. hint.. hint...!)
Apostle Paul said,
"8 ¶ Charity never
faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be
tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we
prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is
perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake
as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a
man, I put away childish things.
Why did the apostle Paul say that, at that point in time, they know in part... and prophesy in part?
He did say that 'knowing in
part and prophesying in part will end... i.e. when that which is perfect IS
COME... THEN that which is in part (knowing, and prophesying in part) shall be
done away with.
The question then is: what is that
thing which is perfect?
Has it come? Yes, when? No,
when?
Apostle Paul spoke of becoming
a man. Did he ever become a man with regard to to the issue of 'knowing in part
and prophesying in part? Did the NT church ever become a man with respect to
the same subject? Or is the NT church still a child with respect to the subject
under consideration? These are weighty questions, you would agree!
Some questions for your kind
consideration, as we study this subject.
I give you full liberty to
raise any question related to the topic... we will discuss and study with the
open Bible... this will benefit all who want to learn the truth.
We will keep our experience in
our respective wardrobe <lol>
Sing F Lau
Page@ "they will cease
when we see through a clear glass and understand in whole, not in parts. That did
not happen with the canonisation of scripture."
========
Charles, supposing you are only
able to know in part now, and sometime in the future you will know in whole.
Now, please tell me what is
that which you WILL know and understand in whole? Please tell us what that is.
I know, your whole idea
revolves around your capacity and ability to know and understand in part and in
whole.
When you are glorified, will
you be able to know in whole like God? Is that what you mean 'understand in
whole not in parts'?
Do you know that something MOST
AMAZING happened when the Scriptures were fully given? Can you tell us what
happened?
With the complete revelation of
God's word, something astounding happened - what is it?
When you have only part of the
Scriptures, how much can be known and understood? How much can be prophesied?
If I forget to answer some of
my own questions, and if you want to know the answers, please goad me.
Charles Page
1) that which is perfect.
"in heaven" - a state of absolute perfection"
2) I shall know even as I am
known. I will not know in whole like God but will know myself as God knows me.
Something none of us experiences in part.
3) No I don't know what you
know about something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures were fully given?
I know the Inspirator who knows in whole but reveals in parts to me. What is
MOST AMAZING is the presence of the Inspirator who indwells me and guides me to
the end till I reach perfection.
4) I believe we have the whole
(completed) of scripture but we see it thru opaque glass, dimly, darkly.
Scripture is complete but our interpretation is imperfect.
Adam Wells
Sing - "Do you know that
something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures was fully given? Can you
tell us what happened?
With the complete revelation of
God's word, something astounding happened - what is it?"
Please do explain, as I am
curious as to how you connect this passage to the canonisation or completion of
scripture.
Sing F Lau
Charles, please peruse this
short bible study note on the passage under consideration. I have just uploaded
it here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-that-which-is-perfect-1cor-138.html
It was done years ago, in 1996.
I welcome any constructive
objections... these will only help each one of us to study the Scriptures.
Charles Page
It helps me to understand your
reason for such a study. What is your connection to the Charismatic/pentecostal
movement? Have you had bad encounters with them? Is it a matter of extremes you
have personally observed?
Sing F Lau
I lived in a time when the charismatic and Pentecostal movement was sweeping over this nation, splitting
up churches in so many places. So the storm was raging around us; I told the 3-year-old church then that we had better study through the Scriptures on the
subject, and be settled in our own mind.
My only personal encounter was
when I was visiting a friend in another city while on college vacation... he
brought me along to his church... and it was weird as well as wild, and that
was in the year 1987, in Geelong, Australia. And that was a typical Pentecostal church then.
As I said, I would rather leave
my experiences in the wardrobe.
Sing F Lau
Does anyone marvel at those
apostolic preachers who were so knowledgeable concerning the gospel of Jesus
Christ, and preaching it powerfully EVEN THOUGH they only had the OT Scriptures
with them?
How did they understand the OT
so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?
How does that 'knowledge'
mentioned in 1Cor 13:8 jive with that unique phenomenon?
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth:
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues,
they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Charles Page
They were well versed in the OT
- however they had the Holy Spirit as the teacher to guide them into proper
understanding.
Sing F Lau
We are absolutely foreign to
the idea of having the OT as the only available Scriptures. We are so used to
having the complete Scriptures, with the NT shedding dazzling light upon the
OT... that we don't appreciate the situation when there was only OT Scriptures.
Supposing we were living in the
days of the Apostles, how much would we be able to understand the OT and preach
Christ out of it? But the Apostles were able to do that with amazing ease!
How did they understand the OT
so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?
They were given the special
gift of 'knowledge' mentioned in 1Cor 13:8.
That 'special knowledge' has
ceased! Why? The way to understand the OT has been permanently inscripturated -
NT Scriptures!
Now it is: "2Ti 2:15 Study to shew
thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly
dividing the word of truth."
Ed Elliott
Sing, you are the one making
the claim that Tongues and prophecies are done away with. I just pointed out
that the passage mentioned "knowledge", and I don't believe it is the
gift of knowledge or wisdom. To suggest that these gifts were going to cease
makes no sense b/c in the 14th chapter Paul begins to explain their function
and purpose. Now why would God give such detailed instruction for something
that wasn't going to continue? If just the Apostles operated in these gifts why
write the church and tell them how to function and to desire them? Why would
Paul say, "be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in
tongues." if these gifts were to cease? Look how much instruction is given
on something that some believe would stop even b/4 the New Testament was
compiled.
Sing F Lau
Elliot, it is not just the gift
of knowledge or wisdom in a general sense. It is the gift of knowledge in the
revelatory sense... those three gifts were all revelatory gifts... special
ability to know the truth of the gospel withOUT the NT Scriptures.
"To suggest that these
gifts were going to cease makes no sense..."
It makes no sense ONLY because
you fail to see that it make plenty of sense because these gifts were STILL in
operation when Apostle Paul wrote that epistle. Since they were in operation,
it was necessary that he gave the instruction on the exercise and purpose of
those gifts. Those good gifts were capable of being abused by some of God's
children!
But you conclude that since he
gave instruction on the exercise and purpose of those gifts, they, therefore,
will continue to the end of the gospel age!
You said, "If just the
apostles operated in these gifts, why write to the church and tell them how to
function and to desire them?"
Whoever claims that those gifts
were restricted to the apostles only????????? That's your idea. When they are described
as apostolic gifts, it is meant that they were gifts restricted to the
apostolic time. With the passing away of the apostles, and divine revelation
having completed... those gifts fizzled away... as stated by Paul.
The difficulty is imagined!
Ed Elliott
Where does it say that those
gifts are just for the apostolic age? And where are they described as apostolic
gifts? I see no evidence for it and in my first post that you claim you didn't
read I supply historic evidence from respected early church fathers some
trained by the apostles themselves that say those gifts continued on after the
apostles died.
Why wouldn't those gifts
continue to the end of the apostolic age. People still need miracles, healing,
etc. The early church fathers proved those gifts continued and didn't cease as
you suggest.
Sing F Lau
The explanation is quite simple: why those three specific and special gifts went beyond the Apostles for a while... though the
inspired Scriptures had all been given through the apostles, the NT Scriptures
were not available to the NT churches for quite a while... those gifts fizzled
away... instead of abiding to the end of the gospel age.
No one suggests that the moment
the last Apostle passed away, revelatory gifts passed away instantaneously with
them.
Another difficulty imagined
<lol>.
Miracles, healing, etc... these
SIGN gifts are distinct from the three revelatory gifts under consideration.
You can start a separate post, and we can discuss there.
Ed Elliott
Sing, why don't we have any of
the early church fathers many who were trained and taught by the apostles
support the idea that only "gifts" were for a certain time period?
This type of teaching that these gifts were only for the "apostolic
age" didn't happen until more modern times.
Ed Elliott
So the NT scriptures tell us
how to function in the gifts but when the NT is complete we don't need the
gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c the NT is complete. That
makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible is teaching believers to
not do what the bible says. So we should not covet spiritual gifts as the bible
says b/c we now have the
bible.
Although in his early years
Augustine believed that all miracles had ceased by the end of the lives of the
apostles, his view was transformed by the compelling evidence of many
well-attested miracles that occurred during a powerful revival that occurred
throughout the churches of North Africa that were under his supervision. In the
last section of his epic work The City of God, Augustine wrote about numerous
miracles that he had personally witnessed and investigated, including
remarkable miraculous healings involving breast cancer, paralysis, blindness,
and even people who were resurrected from the dead.
Have you ever wondered why the
book of Acts has no ending? Is it b/c it is still being written by the church
today?
Sing F Lau
What need was there for those
early church fathers to say those revelatory gifts were only for a certain
time... when such a fact was so obvious too all... those revelatory gifts were
fast fizzling away, and eventually failed, ceased, and vanished away???????
The teaching that those
revelatory gifts were only for the apostolic age had to be stated in modern
times because of the modern phenomenon where claims of apostleship, special
prophecies and knowledge, and tongues are claimed by all sorts of charlatans and
religious quacks!
The 'trinitarian' truth did not
need to be formulated in fire until such perverse men arose to attack that
point of truth.
Ed Elliott
The fact is those gifts were
still in operation long after the apostles went home to glory. A close study of
church history, one can see that speaking in tongues never ceased.
Charles Page
Sing, we will probably agree to
disagree to a certain extent, but you have inspired me with a new dimension.
Brother, you are an inspired teacher, and your congregation is blessed to have
you as their pastor.
I look forward to much more
dialogue with you on this subject.
Sing F Lau
Elliott@ So the NT scriptures tell us
how to function in the gifts but when the NT is complete, we don't need the
gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c the NT is complete. That
makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible is teaching believers to
not do what the bible says. So we should not covet spiritual gifts as the bible
says b/c we now have the bible...
=======
There is much muddled reasoning
here because context is ignored. Those gifts were in operation in the infant
churches... and they were abused, therefore calling forth the needed
instructions on the purpose and orderly manifestations of those revelatory
gifts.
Those revelatory gifts
(prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and vanish away. But
while still present and operating in the infant churches, the instruction
regarding them was needed.
Those revelatory gifts
(prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and vanish away. This is
in sharp contrast to what shall ABIDE...
1Cor 13:13 And now abideth
faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
And these are the BEST GIFTS
spoken of in
1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly
the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
The best gifts are the gifts
that ENDURE and ABIDE, throughout the gospel age... not AFTER the gospel age!!!
You are making the Apostle Paul tell the Corinthian believers to desire and covet the showy and impressive
gifts that shall fail, cease, and vanish away.
I say, the Apostle Paul exhorts them
to covet earnestly the best gifts, i.e. faith, hope, charity, these three earnestly; but
the greatest of these is charity.
"Charity never faileth:
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues,
they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."
These gifts ABIDE throughout
the gospel age... while revelatory gifts of prophecies, knowledge and tongues
lasted a while.
Sing F Lau
Elliott@ "The fact is those gifts
were still in operation long after the apostles went home to glory. A close
study of church history one can see that speaking in tongues never
ceased."
======
'Speaking in tongues' of course
never ceased - I witnessed in temples where mediums fall into trance and speak
gibberish... and this is a common phenomenon in many cultures...
But the biblical gift of tongues (one singular gift but plural tongues) enabled a man to speak many languages that are entirely
foreign to him... for him to declare the wonderful work of God in redemption.
Anything else DOES NOT meet the
revelatory gift of tongues!
Ed Elliott
Could you please explain why
you think that the gifts were "abused"?
Paul said "grace" was
abused, but he didn't stop preaching it.
The best gifts were the gifts
needed at that time; that is why we are told to desire the best gifts. If the sick
need healing, then the gifts of healing would be the best gifts for that
situation, etc..
All gifts should be tempered
with love, one could have great faith, miracles etc. but not love they be
making noise. They themselves would not profit from their use.
Again I explained that those
early church fathers never taught or expected the gifts to cease and their
writings show that they didn't.
For the sake of argument, I am
talking about the biblical use of tongues not some counterfeit but again for
their to be a counterfeit you have to have the real or their wouldn't be a
counterfeit. So to bring up what the pagans do is silly and an intellectual
dodge, pagans preach as well to so does that mean all preaching today is false
of course not but your comparison is just as ludicrous. Lets keep this
discussion on biblical issues not fake or false cultist activity.
Paul said he prayed in tongues
more than you all, the idea that tongues is just languages is not accurate at
all and to ignore that their is a private and personal use of tongues in one's
prayer life and a public ministerial use is to confuse the issue and not
properly divide the word of truth.
Sing F Lau
Elliott @ 'Could you please
explain why you think that the gifts were "abused"? Paul said
"grace" was abused but he didn't stop preaching it.
=======
For gratifying & parading
self instead of edifying the church.
" 12 Even so ye, forasmuch
as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of
the church.
13 Wherefore let him that
speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown
tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."
Grace was abused, and that
abuse must be corrected. He didn't stop preaching grace because he didn't say
grace will fail, cease or vanish away!
It was precisely that those
gifts were ABUSED that called forth the needed REBUKE and instructions.
He didn't stop the exercise of
those gifts because they were still in operation. But he did say they shall
fail, cease or vanish away!
Sing F Lau
Elliott @ Paul said he prayed in
tongues more than you all; the idea that tongues is just languages is not
accurate at all, and to ignore that there is a private and personal use of
tongues in one's prayer life and a public ministerial use is to confuse the
issue and not properly divide the word of truth.
========
Paul DIDN'T say he PRAYED in
tongues more than them all. He did say HE SPEAKS with tongues more than them
all. " v18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"
There is a great difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues; and there is a difference between praying in tongues in public and in private.
What constitutes biblical
tongues must be determined by the Scriptures alone. All through 1Cor 12-14, it is
taken for granted that TONGUES can be interpreted and understood. And if you
think that tongues are some gibberish, incoherent sound, I won't waste time
disputing.
Having said that, let it be
noted that when the Apostle Paul speaks of praying in tongues, he was being
SARCASTIC and REBUKING the FOOLISH and VAIN practice. It is weird that so many
folk are SO OBTUSE and slow... they take his statement of rebuke and sarcasm as
a statement of compliment and approval of such practice! Here:
13 Wherefore let him that
speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. (This rule must be observed,
otherwise foolishness and vanity!)
14 For if I pray in an unknown
tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
And mockery here:
9 So likewise ye, except ye
utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is
spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
(A madman speaking into thin
air! Ha ha ha!...)
11 Therefore if I know not the
meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he
that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
(A man who wants to parade
himself with his gift, instead of being impressive, is seen as a barbarian, i.e. wasting
his breath saying things no one understands.
17 For thou verily givest
thanks well, but the other is not edified.
(And people think Paul is
commending them for well doing... but this is a rebuke for these abuse of the
gifts...
Ed Elliott
Sing, "Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are
zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the
church."
Paul is presenting the proper
motive for going to church. It is to bless others. We should look forward to
church as an opportunity to share what God has given us with others. Too often, people's motive for going to church is to pay a debt to God or to get blessed
personally. Of course, there are times when we need the help of our brothers
and sisters in Christ, but it really is more blessed to give than to receive
(Acts 20:35).
With this in mind, every member
of the body of Christ should be prepared to give of himself when he goes to
church, just as he would expect the minister to be prepared. It wouldn't be
right for the minister to just "show up" and not have anything to
give. Likewise, it's not right for members of the church to just show up and
warm a pew. We should pray and be expectant that the Lord will use us to show
love to someone.
This was the meaning of what he
wrote it had nothing to do with the abuse of the gifts.
else, or minister through the
gifts, as Paul is presenting here.
Ed Elliott
Sing, one must speak to pray or
can you pray and not speak. You are splitting hairs and not looking at the
context of the scripture.
Wherefore let him that speaketh
in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.
Based on his statement in the
previous verse, Paul is encouraging these believers to put ministry to the body
ahead of personal ministry. "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue
edifieth himself, but he that prophesieth edifieth the church
In context, Paul is speaking
about interpreting a message in tongues in the church assembly, we can also
pray and receive interpretation of our tongue in our private prayer life too.
For if I pray in an [unknown]
tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor. 14:14: This is one of
the great advantages of speaking in tongues. Our born- again spirit is perfect
(Heb. 10:10,14; 12:23). Our born-again spirit has the mind of Christ. It has
all the power of Christ (Eph. 1:18-20). It is complete (Col. 2:9-10).
Therefore, when we are praying from our spirit, we are praying with the mind of
Christ, using our most holy faith (Jude 20).
Too often our mind, with all
its wrong thinking and unbelief, gets in the way. Praying in tongues bypasses
our mind and allows our spirit to have unhindered communion with the Father.
What is it then? I will pray
with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with
the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1 Cor. 14:15: Four
different times in this verse, Paul said "I will." Once we have
received this gift, speaking in tongues and interpreting that tongue is a
decision of the will. Some people have mistakenly thought, "We do not have
control over this gift. We can't speak in tongues when we want. We can't turn
the Holy Spirit on and off." That's not the case. It's not that we turn
the Holy Spirit on and off at our will. He is always "on." We are the
ones who are on and off. Anytime we will to do so, the Holy Spirit will give us
the utterance to speak in tongues and the ability to interpret.
"Praying with the
spirit" and "singing with the spirit" are describing praying and
singing in tongues. That is clear from the context. In the previous verse, Paul
said when we pray in an unknown tongue, our spirit is praying. Notice also the
use of the lower case "s" in the word spirit. That is identifying our
spirit, not the Holy Spirit.
Paul wouldn't mock or be
sarcastic about something so holy and precious to Jesus was His gifts to the
church. I really don't know how you come up with something like that it is
almost heretical to mock Gods' gifts like that.
Sing F Lau
Elliott @ Sing, one must speak to pray or
can you pray and not speak? You are splitting hairs and not looking at the
context of the scripture.
=======
Not true Elliott.
Though both activities use
spoken words, when you speak, it implies that you are addressing people. When
you pray, you are addressing God... whether in the public or in private.
Apostle Paul was obviously
rebuking these Corinthians who were abusing those gifts - and pointing out the
ridiculous situation when the gifts were abused!
So many think that Paul is
approving and commending them!
You said this: "Too often
our mind, with all its wrong thinking and unbelief, gets in the way. Praying in
tongues bypasses our mind and allows our spirit to have unhindered communion
with the Father. "
Apostle Paul said this:
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my
understanding is unfruitful."
I believe that is s statement
of REBUKE, not approval and commendation. You take it as a commendation...
You take this as Paul's
approving praying in an unknown tongue for personal edification! Do you ever
wonder why and how praying in unknown tongues (not nonsensical gibberish)
actually promote unhindered communion with the Father? Isn't praying in one's mother
tongue the most natural thing to do?
And didn't Apostle Paul said
those gifts were for the EDIFICATION of the church.... and rebuke those who
abused for their own gratification?
You said, "Paul wouldn't
mock or be sarcastic about something so holy and precious to Jesus was His
gifts to the church."
No, he was not mocking the
gifts. He was mocking their claim that their abuse is for self-edification.
Paul said that the idea is just nonsense... and mocked such an idea.
People clamour, 'self-edification'.
Paul said, 'Unfruitful...
speaking into the air... barbarian...'!
Surely on two completely different
wavelengths!
