Fri,
Mar 28, 2008, 1:55 AM
Keith wrote:
Hello
Xing
***
private email *** not sent to RBDL but
you alone.
First, let me compliment you on your desire to understand how God works
salvation. After we are saved, we desire to understand
more about God and how
He works, which is very good. You raise
some good questions in regard to
faith and regeneration.
Let
me just touch on the subject of faith and regeneration for your consideration, and if you find it of any value, then good. I hope that the English
language won't give too much of a problem.
It
has been discussed between believers for many years: what comes first, regeneration
or faith? It is my belief that the
question is flawed from the
start if we think one must come before the other because:
We
are REGENERATED THROUGH FAITH.
Eph
2:8 For by grace you have been ***saved
through faith***; and that not of
yourselves, it is the ***gift*** of God;
Please
notice that faith is a ***gift*** in the above verse. Regeneration
is the making the sinner spiritually alive (saved), and that happens
by the Holy Spirit granting the GIFT of Faith.
This is like God breathing
life into Adam at his creation. The Holy
Spirit "breathes" faith into
the person to make the person alive (to make the person regenerate).
In
response, the person who receives the GIFT of Faith then EXERCISES that
faith
by believing and repenting. A person
cannot have the GIFT of Faith without
exercising that faith, just as Adam was given breath and he became alive, he was EXERCISING breathing.
So
Regeneration is by the Gift of Faith which we exercise upon receiving the
gift. This all happens at the same time;
one cannot be without the other. Adam cannot be said to be made alive by God
giving him the breath of
life and Adam not be breathing. A sinner
cannot be regenerated by the Gift
of faith and not exercise that faith.
Hence
God is the only cause of regeneration by His granting faith, but the sinner
is not passive in the process since the sinner is made alive and is exercising
faith when spiritually alive. A sinner
is not saved if he is not
believing because if he is not believing in Christ as his savior and lord;
he simply does not have faith at that point and is not regenerated because
he has not received faith from the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration
never happens without the gift of faith because it is through or
by faith that we are regenerated.
I
hope this is understandable. Please let
me know if I can clarify any of the
above for you.
God
bless you, Keith
-------
Sing wrote:
Mar
28, 2008, 9:11 AM
Hello
Keith,
Thank
you for your mail. I do appreciate you effort in sharing with me your precious
thoughts. I
am familiar with almost everything you written in your post.
I
came from a similar background before I started studying the Bible myself...
with old school baptists as my guides.
I
won't make any comment except pasting something I have said elsewhere for your consideration. If
you have any comments, I would be happy to hear from you. Are
you a pastor?
Since
you mention Eph 2:8-9, this is what I believe.
May
the Lord grant you some light is my prayer.
your
brother in Christ,
sing
==========
Date:
April 7, 2007 11:25:46 PM GMT+07:00
Subject:
Fwd: Eph 2:8-9 : Gift, Salvation, Faith,
Brethren,
Below
is an outline of the message I preached on Eph 2:8-9 last Sunday.
It
is the first time I preached from the passage. It
is just my sandy opinions.
sing,
an old school lad. Do consider it carefully.
--------
Eph
2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith" (kjt)
Ephesians
2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should
boast."
Introduction:
a.
In life, certain statements are often stated and repeated as though the truths
in the statement are obvious and universally agreed. The passage for our study
and instruction today is one such statement.
-
This is a very popular passage, and often quoted to acknowledge and affirm the
glorious truth that salvation is by the free grace of God. However, its actual
meaning and truth are often missed, and sincere people end up believing lies
and remain ignorant of the truth stated. So, let me direct your attention to
this passage and consider what is plainly stated here.
-
Don't switch off your mind just because what I am going to say does not conform
to what you have always been told, and have always believe, and have repeated
endless times to others. If after hearing what I have presented to you, you are
convinced that you cannot agree with me, all I ask is, show me a better
interpretation. I am still learning, and want to learn. I will certainly
consider what you have to say.
1.
Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace
Please
take note of TWO VERY COMMON and POPULAR erroneous ideas concerning this
passage:
a.
Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
-
I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace.
-
The 'gift' is that which is by God's free grace, and that which is by God's
free grace in the passage is undoubtedly the salvation by God's free
grace.
-
A gift is something that comes to us from WITHOUT. Your act of believing and
resting in Christ is a grace worked by the Spirit of Christ from WITHIN us. I
assume it is a given that there is no dispute about this basic point.
-
In the sense that the grace of faith is worked within us by the indwelling
Spirit, in that sense faith is not our own. However, it would be most
misleading to say that faith is the gift. If that's true, then every saving grace
worked by the Spirit of God in a redeemed man is a gift too. That's quite
unscriptural manner of speaking. No one can deny that believing and resting is
Christ are the activities of those who are SAVED by God, already possessing
salvation by grace.
-
As a result of seeing 'faith' as the gift, it is commonly and consistently
believed, among the Arminians as well as the 'standard reformed' folks, that
those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe
and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.
-
No, the gift spoken of is the salvation bestowed by God's free grace. And believing in Jesus Christ is the effect
or fruit of that gift of salvation by grace.
-
Romans 5:15-18 speaks of the gift of righteousness, justification of life, i.e.
salvation.
-
Roman 6:23 speaks of God's gift eternal life, i.e. salvation.
-
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down
from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of
turning.
-
Think for a moment the serious implications of this common error:
-
That God gives the gift of faith to those who are not saved that they may
utilise that faith to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But those who are
not ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by God's grace are still
dead in their sin. How could a spiritually dead man utilise a spiritual gift to
appropriate salvation for himself? Try giving a good gift, e.g. life-giving
concoction, to a dead man and persuade the dead man to make use of that good
gift to benefit himself. Wouldn't that be like a cruel man mocking at the
dead???
b.
Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus
Christ.
-
In the nature of the case, this can't possibly be. Look closely at what has
been said in the verses 1-5 about the spiritual condition of those saved by
grace through faith. Faith can't possibly come from those in such spiritual
condition - sons of disobedience, children of wrath, dead in trespasses.
Salvation by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of
obedience, children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace
of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation by God's
free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer. It must be through the
faith of SOMEONE ELSE.
-
The whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage; it is
man-centred idea read into the passage.
-
Eternal salvation is NOT through the believer's faith in - in - in Jesus
Christ.
-
Eternal salvation is through the faith of- of - of Jesus Christ. The vast
difference between the two must be noted carefully if we are to know the truth.
Since we do believe in verbal inspiration of Scriptures, we need to note the
distinction carefully. We will look at the passages of Scripture that vindicate
and affirm the truth just stated.
-
Eternal salvation that comes by God's free grace is through the faith(fulness) of - of -
of Jesus Christ. Eternal salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not
even his believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free
grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something man can
do, and must do.
-
The believer's faith in Jesus Christ is one of the many graces that accompany
the gift of eternal salvation. The effect of eternal salvation cannot possibly
be the instrumental means to obtain the same salvation. As noted before, the
believer's faith in Jesus Christ is a work of the indwelling Spirit as a result
of eternal salvation - justification, regeneration and adoption - by God's free
grace. The indwelling Spirit works many other graces in a child of God. It is
only a saved person who can believe in Jesus Christ because a saved person is
indwelt by the Spirit of God, and the Spirit works faith in him so that he can
believe. 1Cor 1:18, 2:12-14.
-
Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith..." and
-
Eph 5:9 "For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness
and truth."
2.
The Simple Truth of salvation by grace
a.
The simple truth is: Eternal salvation is the gift of God through the faith OF
- OF - OF Jesus Christ.
-
The faith of Christ speaks of His believing in, submission and obedience to all
the will of God His Father in His office as the Redeemer and Saviour of His
people. The faith(fulness) of Christ ALONE secured the righteousness for the elect who
do not have righteousness of their own but who were deservedly under the just
and righteous condemnation of death because of their sins.
-
Our eternal salvation by God's free grace is EVIDENCED or MANIFESTED by our
believing IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ.
This is a world of difference from the erroneous idea that God's free
gift of eternal salvation to us is through our faith IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ.
If eternal salvation is conditioned upon our belief in Jesus Christ - i.e. if
God give us eternal salvation because we believe in Jesus Christ, THEN we who believe
do have some reason to boast - it is our believing that constitutes the
decisive factor in securing our eternal salvation; i,e, it is salvation by our
act of believing!
-
In any case, believing on Christ is described as a work. John 6:18-29
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the
works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that
ye believe on him whom he hath sent." If salvation is through our faith,
then it is through our own works!!!
-
However, believing is a work that ONLY children of God can perform. Children of
God are those already justified, regenerated and adopted.
b.
Consider this passage. Galatians 2:16 says "Knowing that a man is not
justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ,
even we have believed IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
the faith OF - OF - OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the
works of the law shall no flesh be justified". [KJB has 'by the faith OF
Jesus Christ, nearly ALL others translations have 'by faith IN Jesus
Christ.' In the NASB for example, they
translate as "faith in", but in the footnotes they admit
"literally faith of."
- See also
(Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Eph 3:12, Phil 3:9...) Anyone with
elementary knowledge of English would know that there is a vast difference
between the two - 'the faith OF Jesus Christ' and 'his faith IN Jesus
Christ." ]
-
Your justification before God - to have your deserved and righteous
condemnation removed from you and be declared righteous by God - is either by
your own righteousness or through the righteousness of someone else. 'NO
righteousness, no justification' is the holy and righteous and exact demand of God's justice. Without
righteousness, condemnation must remains, justly and righteously; there can be
no just and righteous acquittal.
-
The righteousness absolutely needed for your justification before God is either
by your own faithfulness in keeping God's law perfectly, or through Christ's faithfulness
in keeping God's law perfectly. It is either by your own works of obeying the
law, OR by Christ's works of obeying the law.
-
The faith of Jesus Christ speaks of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in keeping
God's law perfectly, thus securing the indispensable righteousness which is
necessary for the salvation of His people.
c.
Your justification is NOT by or through the instrument of your own faith, i.e.
your act of receiving and resting in Christ Jesus. You must be justified and
saved by God first before you have the life and ability to believe in Jesus
Christ. Your believing in Jesus Christ is A CONSEQUENCE and AN EVIDENDE of God
having effectually called you out of your state of sin and death to grace and
salvation; i.e. justified you (removed your condemnation, and imputed Christ's
righteousness to your account), regenerated you (removed your spiritual death
by giving you eternal life) and adopted
you (bring you into His family and gives you His Spirit to dwell in you, and
who works the fruit of salvation in you.) That is why you are able to believe
in Jesus Christ. That is why anyone is able to believe in Jesus Christ.
Spiritual life is basic prerequisite to spiritual activities. Eternal life is
the gift of God. Believing is evidence of eternal life, since the Scriptures
declare copiously, whoever believes has eternal life. It is just like the
obvious statement - everyone who breathes has life. Many misguided minds insist
- 'you must breathe in order to get life' without realising that such a statement
implied that a person without life can breathe to have life. This is a fable
and fiction.
-
2Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables."
3.
The Imputation of righteousness
a.
Here is another passage which affirms the same truth.
-
Romans 3:21-22 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is
manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness
of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that
believe: for there is no difference. For all have sinned, and come short of the
glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
is in Christ Jesus:"
-
The subject here is the righteousness of God. In the long passage from Rnm
1:18-3:18, Apostle Paul proves and demonstrates conclusively and beyond dispute
that no man has ANY righteousness of his own, and therefore all stand guilty
and condemned before the thrice holy God.
b.
This become obvious from the outlines of the first 4 chapters of Romans.
Rom
1:18-3:20 - Apostle Paul proves and concludes beyond any shadow of doubt that
man has no righteousness of his own, without excuse and guilty before God.
-
In 3:21-31 where the phrase 'by faith of Jesus Christ' occurs: Apostle Paul
speaks of God's provision of righteousness. God's provision of this
righteousness is by faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. this righteousness is secured
by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in His complete and perfect obedience to
the law - in His perfect and sinless life of righteousness, and His blood (His
atoning death). Christ kept the law which His people has broken. This
righteousness of God is imputed freely by God's grace - justification is by the
free grace of God... imputed while the elect was in a state of condemnation and
death, not when he believes.
-
In 4:1-12 Here Apostle Paul is NOT speaking of how an ungodly condemned
(unjustified) man may become justified before God. This is a common mistake of
the 'reformed' people. Apostle Paul speaks of how a justified man by God's free
grace may experience the blessedness of this free grace justification. It is by
faith in the promised seed, Christ.
-
In this matter, the principle is: 'But to him that worketh not, but believeth
on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'
-
With this background, the righteousness of God's own provision is announced.
And by God's free grace, this righteousness is unto all and upon all them that
believe - THAT IS, all them that believe do so because this righteousness of
God has been imputed to them by free grace when they were still ungodly and
dead in sin. Until a man called to eternal salvation, made alive together with
Christ in effectual calling and the Spirit dwelling in us, there would be no
possibility of believing in Christ.
-
Salvation is first bestowed to us by God's free grace, and not conditioned upon
anything man has to do, because being spiritually dead, he is utterly unable to
meet any condition whatsoever!
-
All the condition of eternal salvation have been met, and perfectly and
completely met, by Jesus Christ: his believing, submitting and obeying all the
will of the Father in His capacity as the redeemer of His people.
-
I believe there is a world of difference between "faith of Jesus Christ'
(Rom 3:22 ) which provided the righteousness in the legal justification and
'his faith' (a believer's act of believing, Rom 4:5) experiential and
evidential justification.
-
Sadly, the faith of Jesus Christ is no longer in the thinking and beliefs of
many modern Christians, whether Arminan or reformed.
c.
Salvation requires perfect and complete righteousness.
Of their own, God's
elect has no righteousness whatsoever. The righteousness indispensable for
their salvation is provided by God alone, through the faith of Jesus Christ,
i.e. by the faithfulness of Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the whole
law of God for His people. And all them that believe do so ONLY BECAUSE the
condemnation of death has been removed and this righteousness of life has been
imputed to them freely by God's grace., i.e. justified and regenerated and
adopted.
-
Justified 'by faith of Jesus Christ' is the same as "justified ... through
the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," because that redemption is
secured by the 'faith of Jesus Christ' - through His believing in, submission
and obedience to all the will of God His Father in His office as the Redeemer
and Saviour of His people.
-
John 6:38-9 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the
will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it
up again at the last day.
-
John 17:4: "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work
which thou gavest me to do."
-
John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is
finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
-
Matt 26:42 "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my
Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be
done."
-
Php 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and
became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
d.
It is a frightening thing to think that so many are deluded and are being
deceived that they have perverted the biblical teaching on the faith of Jesus
Christ in their eternal salvation into their own faith in Jesus Christ in their
eternal salvation. The former is the gospel, the good news; the latter is the
subtle lies of the devil, and many true children of God as deceived and misled.
-
Most if not all the modern translation of the Scripture has obliterated the
biblical truth of the faith OF Jesus Christ in the salvation of His people.
Christ-alone salvation has been replaced by Christ-and-me salvation. Though
they still mouth 'salvation is by grace through faith' they have denied eternal
salvation by grace because their put their OWN act of faith into the equation
of free grace.
-
God's children ought to believe the exact truth of how God saved us. To believe
incorrectly is to believe lies, and we dishonour and insult him. We are not
saved by believing the truth; we are saved by God's free grace while dead in
sin. We are saved to believe the truth, and the ministry of the word is
divinely intended toward that end.
-
Jer 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for
the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest
for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein."
-
Let there be none here who say, "we will continue to walk in the new
ways." May the Lord grant us eyes to see the difference between the old
paths and the new paths.
Amen.
=========
Mar
29, 2008, 4:32 AM
Keith wrote:
Hello
Xing (or Sing, which is correct?).
First
let me say that I am encouraged by your desire to defend the truth that
men do not save themselves or help God to save themselves; that if we are
saved we are fully saved by God and not our own actions in any way, shape,
or form. You also show how we are
spiritually dead prior to God working
to make us alive, and by being spiritually dead we can do nothing to
aid God to bring spiritual life to ourselves (save ourselves). We can do
nothing to attain or effect our salvation.
Salvation is truly of God according
to His design and purposes.
I
read and considered your entire sermon; I hope you will do the same for my
reply.
@Ephesians
2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God ...
1.
Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
a.
Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
I
believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace.
Let
me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what
is faith? Is it something that we
possess apart from God giving it to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we
deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is
undeserved, then faith
is a gift! Also, from what I have read,
there are textual reasons in the
Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refers to the word "faith." Although there is not perfect textual
agreement between the words,
it is the best fit.
@The
'gift' is that which is by God's free grace
If
faith is given to us by God, then it is by His free grace, so faith given
as a gift is not contrary to what you say.
Saved by grace means God grants
everything pertaining to life and godliness, *including faith*. If God
grants faith, then faith is a gift. The
Eph 2:8 verse is very clear: "saved
through faith"
If
we are saved, it is through faith, not through something else. Where I think
you misunderstand is that it is NOT our faith by which we are saved, but
God granting faith.
That
we receive faith is clear:
2Pe
1:1 Simon Peter ... To those who have
***received a faith*** of the same
kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ
Let
me ask, when did we receive the faith it talks about here? Secondly, what
happens when we receive that faith Peter received? The answer is that the
external faith we received from God came at the time we were regenerated
(saved through faith Eph 2:8), and when we receive that faith we
exercise that faith. Exercised faith is
believing and repenting. Above, Peter
is talking to the saved, to the regenerate.
@A
gift is something that comes to us from WITHOUT.
Correct. So if faith came to us from without, then it
is a gift if it is undeserved. There are two aspects of faith - the external
gift and then our
exercising that faith. Faith has those
two aspects, an external (without)
and an internal (we exercise).
Do
you think we have something that does not originate with God?:
Ac
17:28 for in Him we live and move and
exist.
If
we received the gift of faith from God to be saved, we exercising the gift
of faith (which we received from God) is also by God since we live, move,
and exist by Him.
@Your
act of believing and resting in Christ is a grace worked by the
Spirit of Christ from WITHIN us.
Yes,
but how is this accomplished? It is by
the Spirit giving faith - it doesn't
happen in a vacuum.
@In
the sense that the grace of faith is worked within us by the indwelling
Spirit, in that sense faith is not our own.
You
are correct that faith is not our own - then is it not a gift?
@However,
it would be most misleading to say that faith is the gift.
Then
where did it come from? If faith is not
ours, then it must come from God. If it is not a gift, then did we deserve it
for some reason?
Again
what you seem to be mixing up is that we are not saying "our exercising
faith" is the primary cause of salvation, for we don't even have faith
prior to being saved. God gives us faith
to save us - it is how we are
saved. Faith exercised is believing.
@As
a result of seeing 'faith' as the gift, it is commonly and consistently believed,
among the Arminians as well as the 'standard reformed' folks, that
those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe
and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.
Again,
is faith a gift from God or is it not?
Sometimes you seem to say faith
is a gift, and other times not. Please
don't confuse that our *exercising*
faith is the cause salvation in the sense it happens independently
from God giving faith, but we are saved through faith (clear from
Eph 2:8 "saved through faith") - we are not saved without exercising faith. Why are we not saved without exercising faith
(which is believing in
Christ and repenting)? Because if we are
not exercising faith, we simply
do not have faith, and if we do not have faith (which is a gift from God;
God's action), then we are not saved. It
is essential we exercise faith
to be saved, but that is not the primary cause of salvation.
I'm repeating part of your statement above:
@that
those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to
believe and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.
Your
misunderstanding might stem from the cause and effect you seem to have between
the *exercise* of faith and salvation.
Certainly we are saved by the
working of God, not our own works. WE
DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST IN ORDER TO
RECEIVE SALVATION (such that it is the primary cause of salvation), BUT WE
BELIEVE IN CHRIST BECAUSE GOD GAVE US FAITH, and it is that gift of faith
that saves. However, the gift of faith
is NEVER separated from us exercising
that gift of faith.
Please
clarify: is our exercising faith (by
believing in Christ and repenting)
essential to salvation or not? Can we go
to heaven without believing
in Christ or repenting?
Can
we be saved without believing in Christ or repenting???
Though
belief in Christ (exercising faith) is not the primary cause of salvation,
nevertheless we are not saved without it.
Any denial of this is serious
error.
@But
those who are not ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by
God's grace are still dead in their sin. How could a spiritually dead
man utilise a spiritual gift to appropriate salvation for himself?
Very
good understanding that a spiritually dead person cannot appropriate salvation
even if it were lying on a table in front of him; that is the very
reason we must receive faith from God in order to lay hold of Christ and
be saved. God grants faith to those He
desires to grant faith according to His choice and purposes. None of us
is worthy of receiving this
faith from God, hence is by grace (unmerited favor) that He gives us the
faith so that we may believe. The elect
receiving the gift of faith and
the elect exercising that gift of faith all happen at the same time, and
is thus salvation. You *cannot* separate
the gift of faith from the exercise
of faith as far as salvation is concerned, but we realize that it is
not our doing by which we believe, it is God's doing because He gives the
faith.
What
is your mechanism by which a man lays hold onto Christ to be saved?
@Ephesians
2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God ...
1.
Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
b.
Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus
Christ.
Right,
in that the believer's faith is not the result of the gift of faith from
God, or happens subsequently to the gift of faith. God grants the gift
of faith then we exercise that faith and believe in Christ. You can't have
faith without exercising that faith.
What exactly is faith according to
you? Do you say we can have faith and
not exercise faith?
@ Salvation
by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of
obedience,
children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace
of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ.
That
is why the gift of faith from God is primary, saved through faith, Eph 2:8. Once God bestows the gift of faith we
immediately and concurrently respond
by exercising faith. You are correct in the sense we must be made children
of obedience before we manifest faith in Jesus, but this is not something
separated by time. In the ordo salutis
there are aspects of time (such
as the external call must precede the internal call), however there are
aspects of the ordo where time is not a factor, but merely cause. The gift
of faith causes the exercise of faith and you can't have one without the
other. Salvation happens when the gift
of faith happens, and you can't be
saved without exercising faith - it is the same faith. It seems like you
splitting exercising faith so distant from salvation is causing misunderstandings,
but you do rightly understand that it is not us that saves
ourselves by our own works, whether that be belief or something else.
But
our belief, our faith, comes from God as a gift, and in that, that faith
(gift and exercise) is one faith and that faith saves. So it can be proper
to say belief saves as long as it is understood that it is not our belief
exercised while we are dead in sin, but it is the faith God grants that
makes us alive enabling us to believe - it is one and the same faith by
which we are made alive in Christ and by which we believe.
@Salvation
by God's free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer.
The
believer exercises the gift of faith - it is the SAME FAITH he exercises
that he received from God. You can't
separate the receiving from the
exercising, for it is one and the same faith.
@ The
whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage
Though
you correctly understand that faith is not from within us (does not originate
with us), I think you are missing the part of what exactly faith does. Please try to follow: How do we get faith? It is granted by the Holy
Spirit. It is as you say, not the
believer's faith prior to salvation which
he decides to place in Christ to be saved, for that would be a works-based
salvation. But we do have faith, do we
not? And if we do have faith,
where did that faith come from? It came
from God by His choice.
Then,
what happens to that faith - or what does that faith do? Does it do nothing? Or does it do something? I say that God, granting the spiritually dead
sinner faith quickens him unto spiritual life where he lays hold of Jesus
and is saved. A person is not saved if
he does not have this quickening
faith granted to him by God, and a person is not saved if he does
not believe in Jesus as his Savior and Lord.
BOTH are needed, and they
both happen at the same time. If God has
granted faith, that faith does
not sit lifeless and alone; it is effective and the result is that the person
who is favored by God to receive the faith believes. A person who has
faith cannot help but to believe (irresistible grace) and he cannot believe
without this special act of God to give him grace.
@Eternal
salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not even his
believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free
grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something
man can do, and must do.
Let
me ask you, can a person be saved prior to his belief in Jesus as his Savior
and Lord? I
believe you have very good intentions to prove that man is not saved by his
own works, by his own efforts, nor by his own faith. This is admirable. But your desire to do so leads to too much
separation with theunderstanding
of faith and faith's exercise.
@Believing
is evidence of eternal life, since the Scriptures >declare
copiously, whoever believes has eternal life. It is >just
like the obvious statement - everyone who breathes has life.
When
God breathed the breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul
(physically), did Adam also personally breathe at the same time? Were there
several days or several hours that Adam was physically alive but not personally
breathing? The work of God making Adam
physically alive includes
Adam breathing as the result of God's work - it is not some secondary
unrelated thing to God's primary act of giving breath/life. It would
be very strange to say that God gave Adam breath to make Adam alive,yet
when you went to see Adam he was not breathing.
If you saw a person that
was not breathing, would you consider him alive? <g>. Same with faith;
God gives faith and we exercise that faith by believing in Jesus.
As
the breath of life made Adam breathe (proof that Adam was alive), so faith
given by God makes a person believe.
@Many
misguided minds insist - 'you must breathe in order to get life' without
realising that such a statement implied that a person without life
can breathe to have life. This is a fable and fiction.
Exactly. But if God makes alive either physically or
spiritually, then the made-alive
person reacts with life, either breathing or believing. That is the
point - you are not physically alive if you are not breathing as you are
not spiritually alive if you are not believing.
@We
are not saved by believing the truth; we are saved by God's free grace while
dead in sin.
In
one sense you are technically correct, but it seems you miss the fact that
the reason we believe is because of God's free grace, not apart from God's
free grace, not before God's free grace.
Believing the truth about Jesus
is part and parcel of God's grace by which we believe. I confirm that
God is the cause of my belief by which I am saved; it is not of me independent
of God, nor is this synergistic as the primary cause. It is God
alone who saves, and by which we believe.
Therefore our belief and salvation
is closely related - you can't be saved without believing because if
God saves you by grace then you must be believing. I ask again, Do you say
a person can be saved without believing?
Can a person go to heaven without
believing? If you say "yes"
then you probably have some serious theological
concerns.
Along
with believing, repentance is required:
Lu
13:5 "I tell you, no, but unless
you repent, you will all likewise perish."
As
we see in the above verse, though repentance does not save us, we are not
saved without repentance. Both
believing and repenting are the result of the gift of faith; both are the
result of us exercising the external faith given to us by God, which faith
we did not possess at one time:
2Th
3:2 ... for not all have faith.
Heb
11:6 And without faith it is impossible
to please Him, for he who comes
to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek
Him.
Also: Heb
12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the
sanctification without which no
one will see the Lord. shows
us that without sanctification we are not saved; however our striving after
sanctification does not save us.
I
guess this is a lot for you to consider, so I will stop here. Thanks for considering
these thoughts.
In
Christian love,
Keith
===========
Mar
29, 2008, 9:38 PM
Sing wrote:
Hello Keith,
Thanks
for your thoughts. May
the Lord bless you.
We
do see things differently. May
be when I am given more light, I would come to see things you do.
sing
===========
Mar
29, 2008, 9:51 PM
Sing wrote:
I said:
@Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ...
1. Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
a. Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace..
You commented
Let
me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what
is faith? Is it something that we
possess apart from God giving it
to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we
deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is
undeserved, then faith
is a gift! Also, from what I have read,
there are textual reasons
in the
Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refers to the word "faith." Although there is not perfect textual
agreement between the words,
it is the best fit.
=================
Hi
Keith,
I
thought what I have written on Eph 2:8-9 actually provide clear answers to your questions! Do you
not see them?
Concerning the Greek of Eph 2:8, kindly note these facts:
- "that": a demonstrative pronoun, neuter gender.
- "gift": a noun, neuter.
- "faith": a noun, genitive, FEMININE
If faith is INDEED the gift spoken of, then the demonstrative pronoun would be in the FEMININE gender; but it's a neuter
The gift spoken of is the SALVATION spoken of - "ye are SAVED by race" - the subject matter of the passage. Salvation by God's grace, i.e. a gift, comes to us from WITHOUT; faith is a spiritual race worked from WITHIN by the indwelling Spirit.
And this salvation is THROUGH the faith (pistis, i.e. FAITHFULNESS of Christ in His redemptive work for His people) of Christ.
Faith is exercised by someone ALREADY saved by grace.
"Except ye be born again, ye CANNOT..."
sing
========
Mar
30, 2008, 4:19 AM
Keith wrote:
Hi
Sing,
I asked, "Let
me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith
is NOT a gift? Then what is faith?
You responded: I
thought what follows actually provides answers to your questions! Do you not see them?
I
am a bit confused on what exactly you say faith is. And I wanted to know more
about what you think the role of "belief in Christ" plays in salvation,
that is: Can
a person be walking around saved and yet not believe in Christ?
This
is a direct question, and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple
yes or no would do <grin>.
There
are the two sides of faith - the same gift of faith given the elect by
God which makes us dead, *unbelieving*, unwilling sinners alive in Christ
causes us to come alive and able to believe.
But not only does that faith
give us the *ability* to believe in some secondary offer of the gospel
or some later offer of the gospel, but it also causes us to believe at
the very moment God bestows the saving faith.
At the point we receive the
saving faith from God we are saved, we are made alive spiritually, an e
do the things spiritually alive people do, which is we believe in Christ as
our Savior and Lord. Since this is *one
faith* given us by God by which we
are saved, it cannot be separated from belief.
If we don't have belief, we
don't have faith because faith has an object, and that object is Christ.
From
your other email, you said,
We
do see things differently. May
be when I am given more light, I would come to see things you do.
I
am truly glad that you are a strong defender of "saved by grace" and
not by
the works of man apart from grace. But
in your zeal to do this it seems you
sacrifice the understanding that man participates by believing. Not that
our believing causes us life for then you would be correct that the dead
cannot cause life, but we are believing which is part of salvation at the
initial start when God grants us life by granting us faith. This is like
the external call - the external call is necessary for salvation but it
does not itself cause life, but again, we cannot be made alive without it
or saved without it.
If
you would, please answer my question I asked above, which is:
Can
a person be walking around saved and yet not be believing in Christ? This
is a direct question and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple
yes or no would do <g>.
God
bless you, brother Sing.
========
Sing
Mar
31, 2008, 8:08 AM
Hi
Keith,
You
wrote: "Let
me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what
is faith? Is it something that we
possess apart from God giving it to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we
deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is
undeserved, then faith
is a gift! Also, from what I have read,
there are textual reasons in the
Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refer to the word "faith." Although there is no perfect textual
agreement between the words,
it is the best fit."
I
wonder why you ask such REDUNDANT question if you has read and understood what
I had written:
I
had written these words:
Please
take note of TWO VERY COMMON and POPULAR erroneous ideas concerning this
passage:
a.
Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
-
I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace.
-
The 'gift' is that which is by God's free grace, and that which is by God's
free grace in the passage is undoubtedly the salvation by God's free
grace.
-
A gift is something that comes to us from WITHOUT. Your act of believing and
resting in Christ is a grace worked by the Spirit of Christ from WITHIN us. I
assume it is a given that there is no dispute about this basic point.
-
In the sense that the grace of faith is worked within us by the indwelling
Spirit, in that sense faith is not our own. However, it would be most
misleading to say that faith is the gift. If that's true, then every saving
grace worked by the Spirit of God in a redeemed man is a gift too. That's quite
unscriptural manner of speaking. No one can deny that believing and resting is Christ
are the activities of those who are SAVED by God, already possessing salvation
by grace.
-
As a result of seeing 'faith' as the gift, it is commonly and consistently
believed, among the Arminians as well as the 'standard reformed' folks, that
those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe
and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.
-
No, the gift spoken of is the salvation bestowed by God's free grace. And believing in Jesus Christ is the effect
or fruit of that gift of salvation by grace.
-
Romans 5:15-18 speaks of the gift of righteousness, justification of life, i.e.
salvation.
-
Roman 6:23 speaks of God's gift eternal life, i.e. salvation.
-
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down
from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of
turning.
-
Think for a moment the serious implications of this common error:
-
That God gives the gift of faith to those who are not saved that they may utilise
that faith to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But those who are not
ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by God's grace are still dead in
their sin. How could a spiritually dead man utilise a spiritual gift to
appropriate salvation for himself? Try giving a good gift, e.g. life-giving
concoction, to a dead man and persuade the dead man to make use of that good
gift to benefit himself. Wouldn't that be like a cruel man mocking at the
dead???
b.
Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus
Christ.
-
In the nature of the case, this can't possibly be. Look closely at what has
been said in the verses 1-5 about the spiritual condition of those saved by
grace through faith. Faith can't possibly come from those in such spiritual
condition - sons of disobedience, children of wrath, dead in trespasses.
Salvation by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of
obedience, children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace
of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation by God's
free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer. It must be through the
faith of SOMEONE ELSE.
-
The whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage; it is
man-centred idea read into the passage.
-
Eternal salvation is NOT through the believer's faith in - in - in Jesus
Christ.
-
Eternal salvation is through the faith of- of - of Jesus Christ. The vast
difference between the two must be noted carefully if we are to know the truth.
Since we do believe in verbal inspiration of Scriptures, we need to note the
distinction carefully. We will look at the passages of Scripture that vindicate
and affirm the truth just stated.
-
Eternal salvation that comes by God's free grace is through the faith of - of -
of Jesus Christ. Eternal salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not
even his believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free
grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something man can
do, and must do.
-
The believer's faith in Jesus Christ is one of the many graces that accompany
the gift of eternal salvation. The effect of eternal salvation cannot possibly
be the instrumental means to obtain the same salvation. As noted before, the
believer's faith in Jesus Christ is a work of the indwelling Spirit as a result
of eternal salvation - justification, regeneration and adoption - by God's free
grace. The indwelling Spirit works many other graces in a child of God. It is
only a saved person who can believe in Jesus Christ because a saved person is
indwelt by the Spirit of God, and the Spirit works faith in him so that he can
believe. 1Cor 1:18, 2:12-14.
-
Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith..." and
-
Eph 5:9 "For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness
and truth."
======
Does
the above answer your question?
If
you say faith is a gift, then what about love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness as many other gifts of God also. The simple truth is: faith is
ONE OF THE MANY GRACES worked within the heart of the elect whom God has
bestowed eternal salvation by free grace.
Regeneration
is the DIVINE CAUSE, faith is the HUMAN RESPONSE when there is ministry of the
word..
Regeneration
does not involve the faith, the act of believing.
The
spiritually dead person who needed to be regenerated is as dead as can be, and
cannot possibly do anything before he is completely and truly regenerated.
This is elementary, is it not???
sing
===========
Sing
Mar
31, 2008, 8:08 AM
Hi
Keith,
You said, "I
am a bit confused on what exactly you say faith is. And I wanted to
know more
about what you think the role of "belief in Christ" plays in salvation,
that is?"
Sing: Faith is the act of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Keith "Can
a person be walking around saved and yet not believe in Christ? This
is a direct question and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple
yes or no would do <grin>".
Sing: Often a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive
understanding of the issue.
A
saved person by God, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt with the Spirit of adoption, need to be saved by the ministry
of the gospel, i.e. brought to believe in the Savior who has saved
him by free grace.
Cornelius
was a saved man, already saved by God's free grace, but he needed
to be brought to know the truth of that salvation by the finished
work of Jesus Christ.
God
saves in the eternal sense, the gospel ministry saves in a temporal/timely
sense, i.e. relating/pertaining to this life only.
The
salvation bestowed by God's free grace and the salvation brought through
the means of the gospel ministry are distinct and different salvation.
If
you understand the few lines above, then you will appreciate that your
question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR very specific.
"Can a
person be walking around saved" - saved in what sense? Saved from the eternal
condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or saved from ignorance
and unbelief through the gospel ministry?
Don't
mix, confound or confuse Divine Cause in eternal salvation, and
the gospel means in temporal salvation. Distinction is the essence
of sound theology.
That's
enough for now. Consider what I say, and may the Lord grant you
understanding.
sing
============
Keith
Mar
31, 2008, 11:06 PM
Hello
Sing,
Let
me reply to your latest 4 emails here - thank you for spending the time replying
to me.
Keith: "Let
me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift?
Sing: I
wonder why you ask such a REDUNDANT question if you have read and understood what I had written.
What
you wrote was that the word "gift" in Eph 2:8 did not refer to faith; you
did not say that faith itself was *also* not a gift. I did read what you
said and understood your point - I was trying to understand more of what
you think about faith as a gift even if it is not the gift in Eph 2:8. Understand? So I was not being redundant.
Some
places it seems like you say faith is a gift, as in:
Sing: "Faith
is a grace (one of many graces) worked in the heart of a
child of God (i.e. regenerated). And
this grace of faith enables
a child of God to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ when
the gospel is preached to him."
I
think I previously detailed exactly this question when I asked if faith was
deserved or undeserved. If faith is an
undeserved grace worked in the heart
(I am supposing you mean worked in the heart by the Spirit), then it is
a gift. What else can it be? If you say the faith we have is not a gift,
or that we deserve the faith, then the faith is ours and not of gift from
God.
You
quote: Gal:5:22
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith..."
Don't
these all come from God as gifts, or are they generated within us apart from God's working? To say that any good
thing comes from within us
and is not a gift from God is Arminian in concept.
Sing "Often
a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive
understanding
of the issue. ... If you understand the few lines above, then
you
will appreciate that your question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR
very
specific. "Can a person be walking around saved" - saved in what
sense?
Saved from eternal condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or
saved from ignorance and unbelief through the gospel ministry?"
Well,
let me try to ask less vague questions so as to not reveal my naivety or
simplicity, and maybe you won't dance around the issue any longer <g> now
that I've come to better understand your terminology:
1. Is it possible for a normal adult person to
be eternally saved and die without
being temporally saved?
2. Also, for clarification sake (not to be
redundant), can a normal adult elect
person go to heaven without belief (exercising faith in Jesus as Savior
and Lord) if he never hears the external call, since as you say he is
already eternally saved.
3. Finally, when are the elect eternally
saved? At election time, before the
foundation of the earth? At the time of
the crucifixion of Jesus? Or at
some other time?
Please
answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me
understand your position.
God
bless you,
Keith
===========
Sing
Tue,
Apr 1, 2008, 1:34 AM
Hello
Keith,
Faith
is a grace (one of many graces) worked in the heart of a
child of God (i.e. regenerated). And
this grace of faith enables
a child of God to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ when
the gospel is preached to him.
Keith: I
think I previously detailed exactly this question when I asked if faith was
deserved or undeserved. If faith is an
undeserved grace worked in the heart
(I am supposing you mean worked in the heart by the Spirit), then it is
a gift. What else can it be? If you say the faith we have is not a gift,
or that we deserve the faith, then the faith is ours and not of gift from
God.
Since faith is a grace worked within the heart of a child of God, it is not
right to describe it as a gift. Doing so not only confuses but also goes against
the usage of the Bible. The Scriptures do not speak of other graces worked
in the heart of a child of God as 'gifts.'
Eternal
salvation is a gift, eternal life is a gift, and imputed righteousness is a gift.
But faith is ONE of the many effects worked in the heart of a child of God. To
confuse an effect of the gift with the gift itself is a very careless way of
speaking, I think.
You
quote: Gal:5:22
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith..." Don't
these all come from God as gifts, or are they generated within us apart from God's working? To say that any good
thing comes from within us
and is not a gift from God is Arminian in concept.
##
These are worked within us by the indwelling Spirit of God. So, there isn't the
slightest hint that these graces are self-generated within us *apart* from God's
working. Your rhetorical question is misguided. The gift of eternal salvation
comes from WITHOUT, without involving the elect in any way; graces are worked
from WITHIN the child of God, requiring the child of God to exercise them. It
is MISLEADING to call them gifts, I think.
Keith: Often
a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive understanding
of the issue. ... If you understand the few lines above, then you
will appreciate that your question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR very
specific. "Can a person be walking around saved" - saved in what sense?
Saved from eternal condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or
saved from ignorance and unbelief through the gospel ministry?
Well,
let me try to ask less vague questions so as to not reveal my naivety
or
simplicity, and maybe you won't dance around the issue any longer <g> now
that I've come to better understand your terminology:
I do believe you are a VERY patient veteran in the faith by the questions you
asked.
The
truth is, even the veteran in the faith has need to learn the faith more
completely. No one has ever arrived - not even Calvin or Gill.
1. Is it possible for a normal adult person to
be eternally saved and die without
being temporally saved?
If I understand your question correctly, then you are asking, "is it
possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being
reached by the gospel"?
Then
my simple answer is YES. There are such
people that the gospel failed to reach in each generation since the beginning
of history. And my explanation is quite simple too: I read in Re 5:9 "And
they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the
seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood
out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." There are kindred, AND tongue, AND people,
AND nation in human history that had disappeared before the gospel message was
ever brought to them. But I read that Christ has redeemed His people out of
"EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
I
believe the ministry of the gospel is the means for the temporal salvation of His
children. However, I am NOT saying that therefore without the ministry of the
gospel, there is no temporal salvation experienced by God's children at all.
Let me explain.
When
God effectually calls an elect out of the state of sins and death to that of
grace and salvation, the justification applied personally, regeneration,
adoption, and the indwelling Spirit working in the hearts bring about a
radical change in this elect.
At
effectual calling, the whole man is radically transformed. The whole man is
acted upon by the grace of God, enlightening their minds spiritually and
savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and
giving unto them a heart of flesh: renewing their wills, and by His almighty
power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing and
uniting them to Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is impossible for an effectually
called elect to continue living in sins just as before, as though no effectual
call unto eternal life by divine grace has taken place. Abraham and Cornelius
are classic examples.
When
God regenerates an elect, He puts His laws in his mind and writes them on his
heart. He is called out of that state of sin and death that he is in by nature,
to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ, i.e., he is called to eternal life in
Jesus Christ. As a result he ‘fears God’ and ‘works righteousness.’ He is STILL
IGNORANT of the gospel of Jesus Christ - the good news of his salvation by
God's free grace through the finished works of Jesus Christ. A man who fears
God and works righteousness, even though the gospel ministry failed to reach
him, DOES experience temporal salvation from the ravages and consequences of
sins here and now.
So,
if I answer your question, "is it possible for a normal adult person to be
eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?" in light of what
I said in the paragraph above, then the answer is, NOT POSSIBLE.
But
the temporal salvation that comes from having the knowledge of salvation by
God's free grace through the INSTRUMENTALITY of the ministry of the gospel is
something different.
That
explains the great urgency of bringing the gospel to him, that he may be
brought to know the good news of the salvation that God has accomplished for
him and applied in him personally. Cornelius was one such man. The Ethiopian
eunuch was another. The ‘god-fearing’ Jews that were converted on the day of
Pentecost were also in this category. Natural man does not fear God… he is at
enmity against God. The effectual call of God produces God-fearing men who need
to be brought to faith in Jesus Christ. “And you… will go before the face of the
Lord to prepare His ways, to give knowledge of salvation to His people… to give
light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet
into the way of peace.”
Long
answer for a short question. Sorry to bore you.
2. Also, for clarification sake (not to be
redundant), can a normal adult elect
person go to heaven without belief (exercising faith in Jesus as Savior
and Lord) if he never hears the external call, since as you say he is
already eternally saved.
Your question reminds me of Paul's words.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the
Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon
him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of
the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom
they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not
heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be
sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the
gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
How
can a normal adult that is already eternally saved ever believe if the gospel
ministry failed to reach him? VERY many RBs believe that absolutely every
eternally saved normal adult is reached with the gospel, and there were/are no
elect of God in places where the gospel had not reached.
I
have said often enough, the gospel ministry has relevance only to the children
of God... good news of eternal salvation has relevance to the recipients of the
same salvation. It has no relevance to all others... it is foolishness to them.
If
you have in mind a normal adult that is already eternally saved, i.e. bestowed
with eternal salvation by the free grace of God, i.e. justified, regenerated
and adopted, and given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the heart, then that
normal elect SHALL MOST CERTAINLY GO TO HEAVEN. His eternal salvation by God's
free grace includes eternal glory in heaven REGARDLESS of whether he enjoyed
little or much temporal salvation while on earth.
Any
man's (normal, abnormal, etc) going to heaven is dependent upon the free and
sovereign gracious act of God in effectually calling him out of the state of
sin and death to that of grace and salvation; it is NOT dependent upon man in
any remote way. However, his temporal salvation is conditioned and dependent
upon the faithfulness of His people in administering the means appointed toward
such ends, i.e. the ministry of the word, and our obedience response to it.
His
redeemed life here on earth would be so much the poorer if the gospel ministry
failed to reach him; his life would be so much the richer if he is made a
disciple through the ministry of the gospel. That reminds us of the urgency
and necessity of the ministry of the gospel - not as a means to bring eternal
life to God's elect, but to bring the knowledge of salvation to God's children
(already effectually called to eternal life).
3. Finally, when are the elect eternally
saved? At election time before the
foundation of the earth? At the time of
the crucifixion of Jesus? Or at
some other time?
It really depends on what you are asking. It is like asking Paul, 'when were you
saved?' See a short article in a separate email.
There
are FIVE phases of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures.
Tell
me which phase you are inquiring.
Whichever
phase, let me say that BELIEVING DOES NOT in any remotest sense involve in getting eternal salvation at all. One must be eternally saved, i.e. bestowed
with eternal salvation first, before one can ever believe the good news of
salvation in Jesus Christ when reached with the ministry of the gospel.
Believing gives evidence of the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's
free grace.
The
Scriptures declares, 'whoever believes HAVE eternal life.'
Many
Reformed people pervert and twist this simple declaration about the believing
ones into this: "whoever will believe shall have eternal life" making
it an conditional offer to the spiritually dead, calling the spiritually dead
to believe in order to obtain eternal life.
Please
answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me
understand your position.
Well,
I have tried in the way you wanted. I don't know whether they help or not. I
have answered the same type of questions from the local RBs here for many
years.
May
the Lord bless you. It is 1.35AM here. I am hitting the sack. Got to send
children to school at 6.45am.
God
bless you.
sing
==========
Keith
Apr
1, 2008, 4:56 AM
Hello
Sing,
Sing: "If
I understand your question correctly, then you are asking, is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally
saved and die without being reached by the gospel"? Then
my simple answer is YES.
Thank
you for a direct answer.
Sing: However,
I am NOT saying that therefore without the ministry of
the gospel, there is no temporal salvation experienced by God's
children at all. Let me explain.
I
basically understand your position.
Sing: When
God regenerates an elect ... He is STILL IGNORANT of
the gospel of Jesus Christ
Understood.
Sing: So,
if I answer your question, "is it possible for a normal adult person
to be eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?"
in light of what I said in the paragraph above, then the
answer is, NOT POSSIBLE.
I
am glad you explained this part of your belief.
Sing: Long
answer for a short question. Sorry to bore you.
It
was not boring at all; I am glad you explained your position so well.
(Probably
saved a few emails! <g>)
Sing: Concerning
a normal adult who has never heard the gospel, you replied, he can
go to heaven if he is eternally saved: Sing: If
you have in mind a normal adult that is already eternally saved, i.e. bestowed
with eternal salvation by the free grace of God, i.e. justified, regenerated
and adopted, and given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the heart,
that that normal elect SHALL MOST CERTAINLY GO TO HEAVEN. His eternal
salvation by God's free grace includes eternal glory in heaven REGARDLESS
of whether he enjoyed little or much temporal salvation while on earth.
... His redeemed life here on earth would be so much the poorer if the
gospel ministry failed to reach him; his life would be so much the richer
if he is made a disciple through the ministry of the gospel.
I
get your point; thanks.
Sing: That reminds us of the urgency and necessity of the ministry
of the gospel - not as a means to bring eternal life
to God's elect, but to bring the knowledge of salvation to
God's children (already effectually called to eternal life).
I
am glad that you seem to be evangelistic.
I was wondering about that.
Keith: Finally,
when are the elect eternally saved? At
election time
before the foundation of the earth? At
the time of the
crucifixion of Jesus? Or at some other
time?
Sing: It
really depends on what you are asking. It is like asking Paul,
'when were you saved?' See a short article in a separate email.
I
am looking forward to receiving that separate email.
Sing: There
are FIVE facets of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures. Tell me which facet you are inquiring.
I
was asking about when a person is "eternally saved" - the terminology
you used. When does this happen? I know you say it is before a person believes. When is the "eternally saved"
process started? When is it completed? You say there are 5 facets, so maybe
"eternally saved" happens over
a period of time.
I
know the scriptures speak of salvation in various aspects, such as we were saved
in the past, we are currently being saved, and we will be saved in the
future. And the "past" aspect
has a whole lot associated with it.
Looking
forward to seeing what you say about the timing of being "eternally saved"
and its 5 phases. Oh, and can you throw
in where regeneration fits into
your system? :) That would be helpful. Thanks for answering my questions.
Sing: Please
answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me understand your position. Well,
I have tried in the way you wanted. I don't know whether they help or
not.
Yes,
it has helped! You are explaining fine.
Sing: It
is 1.35AM here. I am hitting the sack.
A
late owl - like me! :) Hope you get enough sleep. Where exactly are you
located in the East? And what is your
primary language?
In
Christian love,
Keith
========
Sing
Apr
1, 2008, 11:36 AM
Hello
Keith,
Sing: That reminds us of the urgency and necessity of the ministry
of the gospel - not as a means to bring eternal life
to God's elect, but to bring the knowledge of salvation to
God's children (already effectually called to eternal life).
Keith: I
am glad that you seem to be evangelistic.
I was wondering about that.
I am tickled... nearly every RB labels me a hyper-calvinist before they heard or
understood a quarter of a sentence I wrote!
The
ministry of the gospel is VERY NECESSARY. But
necessary for what? For God's ordained purpose, or man's imagined purpose.
That's
where the great divide between those who DO understand salvation by free grace
alone in its biblical sense, and those who fail to understand salvation by free
grace alone.
Sing: There
are FIVE facets of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures. Tell me which phase you are inquiring.
Keith: I
was asking about when a person is "eternally saved" - the terminology
you used. When does this happen? I know you say it is before a person believes. When is the "eternally saved"
process started? When is it completed? You say there are 5 facets, so maybe
"eternally saved" happens over
a period of time.
##
OK I will be brief: The FIVE aspects of salvation are these:
1.
The decreetal aspect: when God decreed to predestinate them to eternal salvation
before time. Eternal salvation is decreed for them before time.
-
Based on this w,e have the second aspect...
2.
The legal aspect when Christ secured their eternal salvation on the cross.
-
Christ's righteousness is imputed to all he represented, and all their sins were imputed to Him, and he suffered for them all, thus eternal salvation was legally
secured for them all. Adam in his act of sin brought legal condemnation upon
all.
-
Eternal salvation is secured for them at the cross. They are eternally saved in
the legal sense.
-
Based on this, whether prospectively or retrospectively, we have the third
aspect...
3.
The vital/personal aspect when God, by His Word and Spirit (the three persons of
the Trinity), effectually calls an elect out of the state of sin and death to
that of grace and salvation.
-
This happens when an elect is dead in sins and trespasses, when he is in the
state of sin and death; therefore, he is entirely PASSIVE when eternal salvation was freely APPLIED to him. Until effectually called out of the native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation, an elect remains vitally and personally
a child of wrath. An elect in his native state, even as others, is ACTIVELY in rebellion and enmity against God
-
Eternal salvation is applied to an elect PERSONALLY, making it vital.
- The effectual call is wholly MONERGISTC, by free and sovereign act of God
alone.
-
The effectual call IS NOT the same a regeneration. It is more than
regeneration.
-
This effectual call out of the state of sins and death NECESSARILY INVOLVES
these monergistic divine acts: justification applied personally (what was legal
become personal) required to reverse the state of personal condemnation because
of sin, regeneration to reverse the state of death because of sin, adoption to
reverse the state of alienation. With the adoption, the Spirit of adoption is
given (a gift from without!) to dwell in the adopted child. All these acts
happen when an elect is in the state of sin and death, by nature in enmity and
rebellion against God.
-
All these monergistic acts happen simultaneously, BUT in that logical order.
- The effectual call of an elect can occur any time between his conception
and death.
-
The effectual call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and
salvation happens to EVERY SINGLE ELECT at God's own appointed and approved
time, independent of anything outside of Him.
-
Based on this, the fourth aspect is made possible... its fulfilment is
conditioned upon various human factors.
-
Based on the effectual call out of the native state of sin and condemnation to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, the fifth aspect is ABSOLUTELY guaranteed... its fulfilment based solely upon the sovereign power of God.
4.
The practical/evidential/experiential aspect when a child of God (i.e.
effectually called) is called out by the ministry of the word/gospel.
-
This aspect involves human instrumentality and human responses.
-
Some of God's children have the benefits of the gospel ministry. Those who do
have the ministry, they sit under ministry of different quality... some very
good, others wholly deficient and inferior... under teachers of falsehood...
like the Arminian theory of the gospel. I do believe some children of God are
actually put of by the perverted gospels hawked by some since preachers, and in
the eyes of the 'church' remain unbelieving!
-
Some of God's children do not have the benefits of the gospel ministry for all
sorts of reasons... some died without ever having the gospel ministry brought
to them... these may have died in infancy, or lived in remote places, in places
where the gospel is forbidden access, lived before the gospel age, before the
missionary movement, some mentally challenged... etc... RBs love to conclude -
there can't possibly be any of God's elect there... otherwise God guarantees
that they would hear the gospel.
-
Whose fault? Part of it, the negligence and failures of the churches in every
generation to the bring the gospel to them. Greater part of it... so many
churches HAWK false gospels...
-
In this aspect, the faith of the believer is imputed to the believer. When
faith is imputed to the believer by God, the believer is blessed to experience
the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace while in the state
of sin and death.
-
This is what Gen 15:1-6 is all about. BUT nearly EVERY RBs see Gen 15:1-6 as
the third aspect... which is SO OBVIOUSLY WRONG, because such a view necessary
implies that prior to Gen 15:1-6, Abraham was an UN-justified man, THAT IS...
still under the condemnation of death!!! There is imputation of faith here, and
NO imputation of Christ's righteousness... EVERY RBs I have known REFUSES to
acknowledge the difference. [see a separate mail - a hard nut for the RBs].
-
That's the case with the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius, Lydia, etc... That was
what Martin Luther discovered too.
-
The justification by God's free grace (the third aspect) CAN ONLY BE
EXPERIENCED by faith in Jesus Christ
-
They don't see the OBVIOUS error because they have CONFUSE this fourth aspect
as the third aspect.
-
In many passages where we read, 'shall be saved' - this is the aspect of
salvation referred to when 'shall be saved' is conditioned upon any act of man.
Temporal salvation is conditioned upon the obedience response of God's children
to the ministry of the word.
5.
The final/consummative aspect at the return of Christ for His people...
-
You can flesh out this skeleton very easily yourself.
-
This aspect is wholly monergistic... the glorification of every elect of God is
absolutely guaranteed... whether one is pathetic Lot or Solomon, or Abraham or
Paul.
-
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many
brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom
he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also
glorified.
-
Every action here is solely monergistic... and is true of ABSOLUTELY every
elect of God. Anything that is conditioned upon the responses of man is NOT
INCLUDED here... they are all ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDED.
-
Justification here is obviously the THIRD aspect... because it has to be true
of every elect, and therefore without and before faith. EVERY Reformed man I
know (whether Bapty, e.g. Sam Waldron,
or Presby , e.g. John Murray the god-father of the RBs <grin>)
insist that it is the justification by faith, the act of believing.
Keith: I
know the scriptures speak of salvation in various aspects, such as we were saved
in the past, we are currently being saved, and we will be saved in the
future. And the "past" aspect
has a whole lot associated with it.
How does what I have written above mesh in with
your understanding of salvation in its various aspects?
Keith: Looking
forward to seeing what you say about the timing of being "eternally saved"
and its 5 facets. Oh, and can you throw
in where regeneration fits into
your system? :) That would be helpful. Thanks for answering my questions.
Do you see what you want to know from what I have written above? If not,
let me know.
Keith: A
late owl - like me! :) Hope you get enough sleep. Where exactly are you
located in the East? And what is your
primary language?
I am in Penang, a very tiny island at the northern end of the west coast of
Peninsular Malaysia.
Exactly
- 5'20" North, 100'15" East. There are many US multinational company
on the island's FTZ.
My
primary languages are Malay and Chinese, with tolerable proficiency in
Chinglish (Chinese version of Queen's English... structure and expression often
'contaminated' by Chinese language.)
sing
