Things New and Old

Fri, Mar 28, 2008, 1:55 AM

Keith wrote:
Hello Xing

*** private email *** not sent to RBDL but you alone.

First, let me compliment you on your desire to understand how God works
salvation. After we are saved, we desire to understand more about God and how He works, which is very good. You raise some good questions in regard to faith and regeneration.

Let me just touch on the subject of faith and regeneration for your consideration, and if you find it of any value, then good. I hope that the English language won't give too much of a problem.

It has been discussed between believers for many years: what comes first, regeneration or faith? It is my belief that the question is flawed from the start if we think one must come before the other because:

We are REGENERATED THROUGH FAITH.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been ***saved through faith***; and that not of yourselves, it is the ***gift*** of God;

Please notice that faith is a ***gift*** in the above verse. Regeneration is the making the sinner spiritually alive (saved), and that happens by the Holy Spirit granting the GIFT of Faith. This is like God breathing life into Adam at his creation. The Holy Spirit "breathes" faith into the person to make the person alive (to make the person regenerate).

In response, the person who receives the GIFT of Faith then EXERCISES that
faith by believing and repenting. A person cannot have the GIFT of Faith without exercising that faith, just as Adam was given breath and he became alive, he was EXERCISING breathing.

So Regeneration is by the Gift of Faith which we exercise upon receiving the gift. This all happens at the same time; one cannot be without the other. Adam cannot be said to be made alive by God giving him the breath of life and Adam not be breathing. A sinner cannot be regenerated by the Gift of faith and not exercise that faith.

Hence God is the only cause of regeneration by His granting faith, but the sinner is not passive in the process since the sinner is made alive and is exercising faith when spiritually alive. A sinner is not saved if he is not believing because if he is not believing in Christ as his savior and lord; he simply does not have faith at that point and is not regenerated because he has not received faith from the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration never happens without the gift of faith because it is through or by faith that we are regenerated.

I hope this is understandable. Please let me know if I can clarify any of the above for you.

God bless you, Keith

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Sing wrote:
Mar 28, 2008, 9:11 AM

Hello Keith,
Thank you for your mail. I do appreciate you effort in sharing with me your precious thoughts. I am familiar with almost everything you written in your post.

I came from a similar background before I started studying the Bible myself... with old school baptists as my guides.

I won't make any comment except pasting something I have said elsewhere for your consideration. If you have any comments, I would be happy to hear from you. Are you a pastor?

Since you mention Eph 2:8-9, this is what I believe.

May the Lord grant you some light is my prayer.

your brother in Christ,
sing
==========
Date: April 7, 2007 11:25:46 PM GMT+07:00
Subject: Fwd: Eph 2:8-9 : Gift, Salvation, Faith,

Brethren,
Below is an outline of the message I preached on Eph 2:8-9 last Sunday.
It is the first time I preached from the passage. It is just my sandy opinions.
sing, an old school lad. Do consider it carefully.

--------

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith" (kjt)

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."

Introduction:
a. In life, certain statements are often stated and repeated as though the truths in the statement are obvious and universally agreed. The passage for our study and instruction today is one such statement.
- This is a very popular passage, and often quoted to acknowledge and affirm the glorious truth that salvation is by the free grace of God. However, its actual meaning and truth are often missed, and sincere people end up believing lies and remain ignorant of the truth stated. So, let me direct your attention to this passage and consider what is plainly stated here.

- Don't switch off your mind just because what I am going to say does not conform to what you have always been told, and have always believe, and have repeated endless times to others. If after hearing what I have presented to you, you are convinced that you cannot agree with me, all I ask is, show me a better interpretation. I am still learning, and want to learn. I will certainly consider what you have to say.

1. Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace

Please take note of TWO VERY COMMON and POPULAR erroneous ideas concerning this passage:

a. Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
- I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace.
- The 'gift' is that which is by God's free grace, and that which is by God's free grace in the passage is undoubtedly the salvation by God's free grace.
- A gift is something that comes to us from WITHOUT. Your act of believing and resting in Christ is a grace worked by the Spirit of Christ from WITHIN us. I assume it is a given that there is no dispute about this basic point.
- In the sense that the grace of faith is worked within us by the indwelling Spirit, in that sense faith is not our own. However, it would be most misleading to say that faith is the gift. If that's true, then every saving grace worked by the Spirit of God in a redeemed man is a gift too. That's quite unscriptural manner of speaking. No one can deny that believing and resting is Christ are the activities of those who are SAVED by God, already possessing salvation by grace.

- As a result of seeing 'faith' as the gift, it is commonly and consistently believed, among the Arminians as well as the 'standard reformed' folks, that those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.

- No, the gift spoken of is the salvation bestowed by God's free grace. And believing in Jesus Christ is the effect or fruit of that gift of salvation by grace.
- Romans 5:15-18 speaks of the gift of righteousness, justification of life, i.e. salvation.
- Roman 6:23 speaks of God's gift eternal life, i.e. salvation.
- Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

- Think for a moment the serious implications of this common error:
- That God gives the gift of faith to those who are not saved that they may utilise that faith to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But those who are not ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by God's grace are still dead in their sin. How could a spiritually dead man utilise a spiritual gift to appropriate salvation for himself? Try giving a good gift, e.g. life-giving concoction, to a dead man and persuade the dead man to make use of that good gift to benefit himself. Wouldn't that be like a cruel man mocking at the dead???

b. Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus Christ.
- In the nature of the case, this can't possibly be. Look closely at what has been said in the verses 1-5 about the spiritual condition of those saved by grace through faith. Faith can't possibly come from those in such spiritual condition - sons of disobedience, children of wrath, dead in trespasses. Salvation by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of obedience, children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation by God's free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer. It must be through the faith of SOMEONE ELSE.

- The whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage; it is man-centred idea read into the passage.
- Eternal salvation is NOT through the believer's faith in - in - in Jesus Christ.
- Eternal salvation is through the faith of- of - of Jesus Christ. The vast difference between the two must be noted carefully if we are to know the truth. Since we do believe in verbal inspiration of Scriptures, we need to note the distinction carefully. We will look at the passages of Scripture that vindicate and affirm the truth just stated.
- Eternal salvation that comes by God's free grace is through the faith(fulness) of - of - of Jesus Christ. Eternal salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not even his believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something man can do, and must do.

- The believer's faith in Jesus Christ is one of the many graces that accompany the gift of eternal salvation. The effect of eternal salvation cannot possibly be the instrumental means to obtain the same salvation. As noted before, the believer's faith in Jesus Christ is a work of the indwelling Spirit as a result of eternal salvation - justification, regeneration and adoption - by God's free grace. The indwelling Spirit works many other graces in a child of God. It is only a saved person who can believe in Jesus Christ because a saved person is indwelt by the Spirit of God, and the Spirit works faith in him so that he can believe. 1Cor 1:18, 2:12-14.

- Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..." and
- Eph 5:9 "For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth."

2. The Simple Truth of salvation by grace
a. The simple truth is: Eternal salvation is the gift of God through the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ.
- The faith of Christ speaks of His believing in, submission and obedience to all the will of God His Father in His office as the Redeemer and Saviour of His people. The faith(fulness) of Christ ALONE secured the righteousness for the elect who do not have righteousness of their own but who were deservedly under the just and righteous condemnation of death because of their sins.

- Our eternal salvation by God's free grace is EVIDENCED or MANIFESTED by our believing IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ. This is a world of difference from the erroneous idea that God's free gift of eternal salvation to us is through our faith IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ. If eternal salvation is conditioned upon our belief in Jesus Christ - i.e. if God give us eternal salvation because we believe in Jesus Christ, THEN we who believe do have some reason to boast - it is our believing that constitutes the decisive factor in securing our eternal salvation; i,e, it is salvation by our act of believing!

- In any case, believing on Christ is described as a work. John 6:18-29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." If salvation is through our faith, then it is through our own works!!!
- However, believing is a work that ONLY children of God can perform. Children of God are those already justified, regenerated and adopted.

b. Consider this passage. Galatians 2:16 says "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF - OF - OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". [KJB has 'by the faith OF Jesus Christ, nearly ALL others translations have 'by faith IN Jesus Christ.' In the NASB for example, they translate as "faith in", but in the footnotes they admit "literally faith of."
- See also (Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16, 2:20, 3:22, Eph 3:12, Phil 3:9...) Anyone with elementary knowledge of English would know that there is a vast difference between the two - 'the faith OF Jesus Christ' and 'his faith IN Jesus Christ." ]

- Your justification before God - to have your deserved and righteous condemnation removed from you and be declared righteous by God - is either by your own righteousness or through the righteousness of someone else. 'NO righteousness, no justification' is the holy and righteous and exact demand of God's justice. Without righteousness, condemnation must remains, justly and righteously; there can be no just and righteous acquittal.

- The righteousness absolutely needed for your justification before God is either by your own faithfulness in keeping God's law perfectly, or through Christ's faithfulness in keeping God's law perfectly. It is either by your own works of obeying the law, OR by Christ's works of obeying the law.

- The faith of Jesus Christ speaks of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in keeping God's law perfectly, thus securing the indispensable righteousness which is necessary for the salvation of His people.

c. Your justification is NOT by or through the instrument of your own faith, i.e. your act of receiving and resting in Christ Jesus. You must be justified and saved by God first before you have the life and ability to believe in Jesus Christ. Your believing in Jesus Christ is A CONSEQUENCE and AN EVIDENDE of God having effectually called you out of your state of sin and death to grace and salvation; i.e. justified you (removed your condemnation, and imputed Christ's righteousness to your account), regenerated you (removed your spiritual death by giving you eternal life) and adopted you (bring you into His family and gives you His Spirit to dwell in you, and who works the fruit of salvation in you.) That is why you are able to believe in Jesus Christ. That is why anyone is able to believe in Jesus Christ. Spiritual life is basic prerequisite to spiritual activities. Eternal life is the gift of God. Believing is evidence of eternal life, since the Scriptures declare copiously, whoever believes has eternal life. It is just like the obvious statement - everyone who breathes has life. Many misguided minds insist - 'you must breathe in order to get life' without realising that such a statement implied that a person without life can breathe to have life. This is a fable and fiction.

- 2Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

3. The Imputation of righteousness
a. Here is another passage which affirms the same truth.
- Romans 3:21-22 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

- The subject here is the righteousness of God. In the long passage from Rnm 1:18-3:18, Apostle Paul proves and demonstrates conclusively and beyond dispute that no man has ANY righteousness of his own, and therefore all stand guilty and condemned before the thrice holy God.

b. This become obvious from the outlines of the first 4 chapters of Romans.

Rom 1:18-3:20 - Apostle Paul proves and concludes beyond any shadow of doubt that man has no righteousness of his own, without excuse and guilty before God.

- In 3:21-31 where the phrase 'by faith of Jesus Christ' occurs: Apostle Paul speaks of God's provision of righteousness. God's provision of this righteousness is by faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. this righteousness is secured by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in His complete and perfect obedience to the law - in His perfect and sinless life of righteousness, and His blood (His atoning death). Christ kept the law which His people has broken. This righteousness of God is imputed freely by God's grace - justification is by the free grace of God... imputed while the elect was in a state of condemnation and death, not when he believes.

- In 4:1-12 Here Apostle Paul is NOT speaking of how an ungodly condemned (unjustified) man may become justified before God. This is a common mistake of the 'reformed' people. Apostle Paul speaks of how a justified man by God's free grace may experience the blessedness of this free grace justification. It is by faith in the promised seed, Christ.

- In this matter, the principle is: 'But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'
- With this background, the righteousness of God's own provision is announced. And by God's free grace, this righteousness is unto all and upon all them that believe - THAT IS, all them that believe do so because this righteousness of God has been imputed to them by free grace when they were still ungodly and dead in sin. Until a man called to eternal salvation, made alive together with Christ in effectual calling and the Spirit dwelling in us, there would be no possibility of believing in Christ.

- Salvation is first bestowed to us by God's free grace, and not conditioned upon anything man has to do, because being spiritually dead, he is utterly unable to meet any condition whatsoever!

- All the condition of eternal salvation have been met, and perfectly and completely met, by Jesus Christ: his believing, submitting and obeying all the will of the Father in His capacity as the redeemer of His people.

- I believe there is a world of difference between "faith of Jesus Christ' (Rom 3:22 ) which provided the righteousness in the legal justification and 'his faith' (a believer's act of believing, Rom 4:5) experiential and evidential justification.
- Sadly, the faith of Jesus Christ is no longer in the thinking and beliefs of many modern Christians, whether Arminan or reformed.

c. Salvation requires perfect and complete righteousness.
Of their own, God's elect has no righteousness whatsoever. The righteousness indispensable for their salvation is provided by God alone, through the faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. by the faithfulness of Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the whole law of God for His people. And all them that believe do so ONLY BECAUSE the condemnation of death has been removed and this righteousness of life has been imputed to them freely by God's grace., i.e. justified and regenerated and adopted.

- Justified 'by faith of Jesus Christ' is the same as "justified ... through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," because that redemption is secured by the 'faith of Jesus Christ' - through His believing in, submission and obedience to all the will of God His Father in His office as the Redeemer and Saviour of His people.

- John 6:38-9 "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
- John 17:4: "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."
- John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

- Matt 26:42 "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."
- Php 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

d. It is a frightening thing to think that so many are deluded and are being deceived that they have perverted the biblical teaching on the faith of Jesus Christ in their eternal salvation into their own faith in Jesus Christ in their eternal salvation. The former is the gospel, the good news; the latter is the subtle lies of the devil, and many true children of God as deceived and misled.

- Most if not all the modern translation of the Scripture has obliterated the biblical truth of the faith OF Jesus Christ in the salvation of His people. Christ-alone salvation has been replaced by Christ-and-me salvation. Though they still mouth 'salvation is by grace through faith' they have denied eternal salvation by grace because their put their OWN act of faith into the equation of free grace.

- God's children ought to believe the exact truth of how God saved us. To believe incorrectly is to believe lies, and we dishonour and insult him. We are not saved by believing the truth; we are saved by God's free grace while dead in sin. We are saved to believe the truth, and the ministry of the word is divinely intended toward that end.

- Jer 6:16 "Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein."

- Let there be none here who say, "we will continue to walk in the new ways." May the Lord grant us eyes to see the difference between the old paths and the new paths.

Amen.

=========

Mar 29, 2008, 4:32 AM
Keith wrote:
Hello Xing (or Sing, which is correct?).
First let me say that I am encouraged by your desire to defend the truth that men do not save themselves or help God to save themselves; that if we are saved we are fully saved by God and not our own actions in any way, shape, or form. You also show how we are spiritually dead prior to God working to make us alive, and by being spiritually dead we can do nothing to aid God to bring spiritual life to ourselves (save ourselves). We can do nothing to attain or effect our salvation. Salvation is truly of God according to His design and purposes.

I read and considered your entire sermon; I hope you will do the same for my reply.

@Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ...
1. Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
a. Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace.

Let me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what is faith? Is it something that we possess apart from God giving it to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is undeserved, then faith is a gift! Also, from what I have read, there are textual reasons in the Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refers to the word "faith." Although there is not perfect textual agreement between the words, it is the best fit.

@The 'gift' is that which is by God's free grace
If faith is given to us by God, then it is by His free grace, so faith given as a gift is not contrary to what you say. Saved by grace means God grants everything pertaining to life and godliness, *including faith*. If God grants faith, then faith is a gift. The Eph 2:8 verse is very clear: "saved through faith"

If we are saved, it is through faith, not through something else. Where I think you misunderstand is that it is NOT our faith by which we are saved, but God granting faith.

That we receive faith is clear:
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter ... To those who have ***received a faith*** of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Let me ask, when did we receive the faith it talks about here? Secondly, what happens when we receive that faith Peter received? The answer is that the external faith we received from God came at the time we were regenerated (saved through faith Eph 2:8), and when we receive that faith we exercise that faith. Exercised faith is believing and repenting. Above, Peter is talking to the saved, to the regenerate.

@A gift is something that comes to us from WITHOUT.
Correct. So if faith came to us from without, then it is a gift if it is undeserved. There are two aspects of faith - the external gift and then our exercising that faith. Faith has those two aspects, an external (without) and an internal (we exercise).

Do you think we have something that does not originate with God?:

Ac 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist.
If we received the gift of faith from God to be saved, we exercising the gift of faith (which we received from God) is also by God since we live, move, and exist by Him.

@Your act of believing and resting in Christ is a grace worked by the Spirit of Christ from WITHIN us.
Yes, but how is this accomplished? It is by the Spirit giving faith - it doesn't happen in a vacuum.

@In the sense that the grace of faith is worked within us by the indwelling Spirit, in that sense faith is not our own.
You are correct that faith is not our own - then is it not a gift?

@However, it would be most misleading to say that faith is the gift.
Then where did it come from? If faith is not ours, then it must come from God. If it is not a gift, then did we deserve it for some reason?
Again what you seem to be mixing up is that we are not saying "our exercising faith" is the primary cause of salvation, for we don't even have faith prior to being saved. God gives us faith to save us - it is how we are saved. Faith exercised is believing.

@As a result of seeing 'faith' as the gift, it is commonly and consistently believed, among the Arminians as well as the 'standard reformed' folks, that those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.

Again, is faith a gift from God or is it not? Sometimes you seem to say faith is a gift, and other times not. Please don't confuse that our *exercising* faith is the cause salvation in the sense it happens independently from God giving faith, but we are saved through faith (clear from Eph 2:8 "saved through faith") - we are not saved without exercising faith. Why are we not saved without exercising faith (which is believing in Christ and repenting)? Because if we are not exercising faith, we simply do not have faith, and if we do not have faith (which is a gift from God; God's action), then we are not saved. It is essential we exercise faith to be saved, but that is not the primary cause of salvation.

I'm repeating part of your statement above:

@that those who received this gift of faith then must exercise that faith to believe and receive Christ in order to receive salvation from God.
Your misunderstanding might stem from the cause and effect you seem to have between the *exercise* of faith and salvation. Certainly we are saved by the working of God, not our own works. WE DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST IN ORDER TO RECEIVE SALVATION (such that it is the primary cause of salvation), BUT WE BELIEVE IN CHRIST BECAUSE GOD GAVE US FAITH, and it is that gift of faith that saves. However, the gift of faith is NEVER separated from us exercising that gift of faith.

Please clarify: is our exercising faith (by believing in Christ and repenting) essential to salvation or not? Can we go to heaven without believing in Christ or repenting?

Can we be saved without believing in Christ or repenting???
Though belief in Christ (exercising faith) is not the primary cause of salvation, nevertheless we are not saved without it. Any denial of this is serious error.

@But those who are not ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by God's grace are still dead in their sin. How could a spiritually dead man utilise a spiritual gift to appropriate salvation for himself?
Very good understanding that a spiritually dead person cannot appropriate salvation even if it were lying on a table in front of him; that is the very reason we must receive faith from God in order to lay hold of Christ and be saved. God grants faith to those He desires to grant faith according to His choice and purposes. None of us is worthy of receiving this faith from God, hence is by grace (unmerited favor) that He gives us the faith so that we may believe. The elect receiving the gift of faith and the elect exercising that gift of faith all happen at the same time, and is thus salvation. You *cannot* separate the gift of faith from the exercise of faith as far as salvation is concerned, but we realize that it is not our doing by which we believe, it is God's doing because He gives the faith.

What is your mechanism by which a man lays hold onto Christ to be saved?

@Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ...
1. Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
b. Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus Christ.

Right, in that the believer's faith is not the result of the gift of faith from God, or happens subsequently to the gift of faith. God grants the gift of faith then we exercise that faith and believe in Christ. You can't have faith without exercising that faith. What exactly is faith according to you? Do you say we can have faith and not exercise faith?

@ Salvation by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of
obedience, children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ.

That is why the gift of faith from God is primary, saved through faith, Eph 2:8. Once God bestows the gift of faith we immediately and concurrently respond by exercising faith. You are correct in the sense we must be made children of obedience before we manifest faith in Jesus, but this is not something separated by time. In the ordo salutis there are aspects of time (such as the external call must precede the internal call), however there are aspects of the ordo where time is not a factor, but merely cause. The gift of faith causes the exercise of faith and you can't have one without the other. Salvation happens when the gift of faith happens, and you can't be saved without exercising faith - it is the same faith. It seems like you splitting exercising faith so distant from salvation is causing misunderstandings, but you do rightly understand that it is not us that saves ourselves by our own works, whether that be belief or something else.

But our belief, our faith, comes from God as a gift, and in that, that faith (gift and exercise) is one faith and that faith saves. So it can be proper to say belief saves as long as it is understood that it is not our belief exercised while we are dead in sin, but it is the faith God grants that makes us alive enabling us to believe - it is one and the same faith by which we are made alive in Christ and by which we believe.

@Salvation by God's free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer.
The believer exercises the gift of faith - it is the SAME FAITH he exercises that he received from God. You can't separate the receiving from the exercising, for it is one and the same faith.

@ The whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage
Though you correctly understand that faith is not from within us (does not originate with us), I think you are missing the part of what exactly faith does. Please try to follow: How do we get faith? It is granted by the Holy Spirit. It is as you say, not the believer's faith prior to salvation which he decides to place in Christ to be saved, for that would be a works-based salvation. But we do have faith, do we not? And if we do have faith, where did that faith come from? It came from God by His choice.

Then, what happens to that faith - or what does that faith do? Does it do nothing? Or does it do something? I say that God, granting the spiritually dead sinner faith quickens him unto spiritual life where he lays hold of Jesus and is saved. A person is not saved if he does not have this quickening faith granted to him by God, and a person is not saved if he does not believe in Jesus as his Savior and Lord. BOTH are needed, and they both happen at the same time. If God has granted faith, that faith does not sit lifeless and alone; it is effective and the result is that the person who is favored by God to receive the faith believes. A person who has faith cannot help but to believe (irresistible grace) and he cannot believe without this special act of God to give him grace.

@Eternal salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not even his believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something man can do, and must do.

Let me ask you, can a person be saved prior to his belief in Jesus as his Savior and Lord? I believe you have very good intentions to prove that man is not saved by his own works, by his own efforts, nor by his own faith. This is admirable. But your desire to do so leads to too much separation with theunderstanding of faith and faith's exercise.

@Believing is evidence of eternal life, since the Scriptures >declare copiously, whoever believes has eternal life. It is >just like the obvious statement - everyone who breathes has life.

When God breathed the breath of life into Adam and Adam became a living soul (physically), did Adam also personally breathe at the same time? Were there several days or several hours that Adam was physically alive but not personally breathing? The work of God making Adam physically alive includes Adam breathing as the result of God's work - it is not some secondary unrelated thing to God's primary act of giving breath/life. It would be very strange to say that God gave Adam breath to make Adam alive,yet when you went to see Adam he was not breathing. If you saw a person that was not breathing, would you consider him alive? <g>. Same with faith; God gives faith and we exercise that faith by believing in Jesus.

As the breath of life made Adam breathe (proof that Adam was alive), so faith given by God makes a person believe.

@Many misguided minds insist - 'you must breathe in order to get life' without realising that such a statement implied that a person without life can breathe to have life. This is a fable and fiction.

Exactly. But if God makes alive either physically or spiritually, then the made-alive person reacts with life, either breathing or believing. That is the point - you are not physically alive if you are not breathing as you are not spiritually alive if you are not believing.

@We are not saved by believing the truth; we are saved by God's free grace while dead in sin.
In one sense you are technically correct, but it seems you miss the fact that the reason we believe is because of God's free grace, not apart from God's free grace, not before God's free grace. Believing the truth about Jesus is part and parcel of God's grace by which we believe. I confirm that God is the cause of my belief by which I am saved; it is not of me independent of God, nor is this synergistic as the primary cause. It is God alone who saves, and by which we believe. Therefore our belief and salvation is closely related - you can't be saved without believing because if God saves you by grace then you must be believing. I ask again, Do you say a person can be saved without believing? Can a person go to heaven without believing? If you say "yes" then you probably have some serious theological concerns.

Along with believing, repentance is required:
Lu 13:5 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

As we see in the above verse, though repentance does not save us, we are not saved without repentance. Both believing and repenting are the result of the gift of faith; both are the result of us exercising the external faith given to us by God, which faith we did not possess at one time:

2Th 3:2 ... for not all have faith.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Also: Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. shows us that without sanctification we are not saved; however our striving after sanctification does not save us.

I guess this is a lot for you to consider, so I will stop here. Thanks for considering these thoughts.

In Christian love,

Keith

===========

Mar 29, 2008, 9:38 PM

Sing wrote:
Hello Keith,
Thanks for your thoughts. May the Lord bless you.
We do see things differently. May be when I am given more light, I would come to see things you do.
sing

===========

Mar 29, 2008, 9:51 PM
Sing wrote:
I said:
@Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God ...
1. Common misunderstandings about eternal salvation by grace ...
a. Firstly, that the gift spoken of here is 'faith.'
I believe the gift spoken of here is the salvation by God's free grace..

You commented
Let me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what is faith? Is it something that we possess apart from God giving it to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is undeserved, then faith is a gift! Also, from what I have read, there are textual reasons in the Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refers to the word "faith." Although there is not perfect textual agreement between the words, it is the best fit.

=================

Hi Keith,

I thought what I have written on Eph 2:8-9 actually provide clear answers to your questions! Do you not see them?

Concerning the Greek of Eph 2:8, kindly note these facts:
- "that": a demonstrative pronoun, neuter gender.
- "gift": a noun, neuter.
- "faith": a noun, genitive, FEMININE

If faith is INDEED the gift spoken of, then the demonstrative pronoun would be in the FEMININE gender; but it's a neuter

The gift spoken of is the SALVATION spoken of - "ye are SAVED by race" - the subject matter of the passage. Salvation by God's grace, i.e. a gift, comes to us from WITHOUT; faith is a spiritual race worked from WITHIN by the indwelling Spirit.

And this salvation is THROUGH the faith (pistis, i.e. FAITHFULNESS of Christ in His redemptive work for His people) of Christ.

Faith is exercised by someone ALREADY saved by grace.
"Except ye be born again, ye CANNOT..."

sing
========

Mar 30, 2008, 4:19 AM

Keith wrote:

Hi Sing,
I asked, "Let me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what is faith?

You responded: I thought what follows actually provides answers to your questions! Do you not see them?

I am a bit confused on what exactly you say faith is. And I wanted to know more about what you think the role of "belief in Christ" plays in salvation, that is: Can a person be walking around saved and yet not believe in Christ?

This is a direct question, and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple yes or no would do <grin>.

There are the two sides of faith - the same gift of faith given the elect by God which makes us dead, *unbelieving*, unwilling sinners alive in Christ causes us to come alive and able to believe. But not only does that faith give us the *ability* to believe in some secondary offer of the gospel or some later offer of the gospel, but it also causes us to believe at the very moment God bestows the saving faith. At the point we receive the saving faith from God we are saved, we are made alive spiritually, an e do the things spiritually alive people do, which is we believe in Christ as our Savior and Lord. Since this is *one faith* given us by God by which we are saved, it cannot be separated from belief. If we don't have belief, we don't have faith because faith has an object, and that object is Christ.

From your other email, you said,
We do see things differently. May be when I am given more light, I would come to see things you do.

I am truly glad that you are a strong defender of "saved by grace" and not by the works of man apart from grace. But in your zeal to do this it seems you sacrifice the understanding that man participates by believing. Not that our believing causes us life for then you would be correct that the dead cannot cause life, but we are believing which is part of salvation at the initial start when God grants us life by granting us faith. This is like the external call - the external call is necessary for salvation but it does not itself cause life, but again, we cannot be made alive without it or saved without it.

If you would, please answer my question I asked above, which is:

Can a person be walking around saved and yet not be believing in Christ? This is a direct question and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple yes or no would do <g>.

God bless you, brother Sing.

========

Sing
Mar 31, 2008, 8:08 AM

Hi Keith,
You wrote: "Let me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift? Then what is faith? Is it something that we possess apart from God giving it to us? And if God gave it to us, was it something we deserved or was it undeserved? If you say the faith believers possess is undeserved, then faith is a gift! Also, from what I have read, there are textual reasons in the Greek that would say the words "it is a gift" refer to the word "faith." Although there is no perfect textual agreement between the words, it is the best fit."

I wonder why you ask such REDUNDANT question if you has read and understood what I had written:

I had written these words:
Please take note of TWO VERY COMMON and POPULAR erroneous ideas concerning this passage:

- No, the gift spoken of is the salvation bestowed by God's free grace. And believing in Jesus Christ is the effect or fruit of that gift of salvation by grace.

- Romans 5:15-18 speaks of the gift of righteousness, justification of life, i.e. salvation.

- Roman 6:23 speaks of God's gift eternal life, i.e. salvation.

- Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

- Think for a moment the serious implications of this common error:

- That God gives the gift of faith to those who are not saved that they may utilise that faith to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But those who are not ALREADY saved, i.e. justified and regenerated, by God's grace are still dead in their sin. How could a spiritually dead man utilise a spiritual gift to appropriate salvation for himself? Try giving a good gift, e.g. life-giving concoction, to a dead man and persuade the dead man to make use of that good gift to benefit himself. Wouldn't that be like a cruel man mocking at the dead???

b. Secondly, that the faith spoken of here is the believer's faith in Jesus Christ.
- In the nature of the case, this can't possibly be. Look closely at what has been said in the verses 1-5 about the spiritual condition of those saved by grace through faith. Faith can't possibly come from those in such spiritual condition - sons of disobedience, children of wrath, dead in trespasses. Salvation by grace must come to them first; they must be made children of obedience, children of grace and alive in righteousness first by the free grace of God before they can manifest any faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation by God's free grace CANNOT be through the faith of the believer. It must be through the faith of SOMEONE ELSE.

- The whole idea of believer's faith is imposed upon the passage; it is man-centred idea read into the passage.

- Eternal salvation is NOT through the believer's faith in - in - in Jesus Christ.

- Eternal salvation is through the faith of- of - of Jesus Christ. The vast difference between the two must be noted carefully if we are to know the truth. Since we do believe in verbal inspiration of Scriptures, we need to note the distinction carefully. We will look at the passages of Scripture that vindicate and affirm the truth just stated.

- Eternal salvation that comes by God's free grace is through the faith of - of - of Jesus Christ. Eternal salvation is not by grace through an act of man, not even his believing in Christ. If that were so, it is no longer by God's free grace; at best it would be grace conditioned or dependent on something man can do, and must do.

- Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..." and

- Eph 5:9 "For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth."

======

Does the above answer your question?

If you say faith is a gift, then what about love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness as many other gifts of God also. The simple truth is: faith is ONE OF THE MANY GRACES worked within the heart of the elect whom God has bestowed eternal salvation by free grace.

Regeneration is the DIVINE CAUSE, faith is the HUMAN RESPONSE when there is ministry of the word..

Regeneration does not involve the faith, the act of believing.

The spiritually dead person who needed to be regenerated is as dead as can be, and cannot possibly do anything before he is completely and truly regenerated.
This is elementary, is it not???

sing

===========

Sing
Mar 31, 2008, 8:08 AM

Hi Keith,
You said, "I am a bit confused on what exactly you say faith is. And I wanted to know more about what you think the role of "belief in Christ" plays in salvation, that is?"

Sing: Faith is the act of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Keith "Can a person be walking around saved and yet not believe in Christ? This is a direct question and it seems to me not too hard to answer - a simple yes or no would do <grin>".

Sing: Often a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive understanding of the issue.

A saved person by God, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt with the Spirit of adoption, need to be saved by the ministry of the gospel, i.e. brought to believe in the Savior who has saved him by free grace.

Cornelius was a saved man, already saved by God's free grace, but he needed to be brought to know the truth of that salvation by the finished work of Jesus Christ.

God saves in the eternal sense, the gospel ministry saves in a temporal/timely sense, i.e. relating/pertaining to this life only.

The salvation bestowed by God's free grace and the salvation brought through the means of the gospel ministry are distinct and different salvation.

If you understand the few lines above, then you will appreciate that your question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR very specific.

"Can a person be walking around saved" - saved in what sense? Saved from the eternal condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or saved from ignorance and unbelief through the gospel ministry?

Don't mix, confound or confuse Divine Cause in eternal salvation, and the gospel means in temporal salvation. Distinction is the essence of sound theology.

That's enough for now. Consider what I say, and may the Lord grant you understanding.

sing

============

Keith

Mar 31, 2008, 11:06 PM
Hello Sing,

Let me reply to your latest 4 emails here - thank you for spending the time replying to me.

Keith: "Let me ask you at the start, are you saying that faith is NOT a gift?

Sing: I wonder why you ask such a REDUNDANT question if you have read and understood what I had written.

What you wrote was that the word "gift" in Eph 2:8 did not refer to faith; you did not say that faith itself was *also* not a gift. I did read what you said and understood your point - I was trying to understand more of what you think about faith as a gift even if it is not the gift in Eph 2:8. Understand? So I was not being redundant.

Some places it seems like you say faith is a gift, as in:
Sing: "Faith is a grace (one of many graces) worked in the heart of a child of God (i.e. regenerated). And this grace of faith enables a child of God to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ when the gospel is preached to him."

I think I previously detailed exactly this question when I asked if faith was deserved or undeserved. If faith is an undeserved grace worked in the heart (I am supposing you mean worked in the heart by the Spirit), then it is a gift. What else can it be? If you say the faith we have is not a gift, or that we deserve the faith, then the faith is ours and not of gift from God.

You quote: Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..."

Don't these all come from God as gifts, or are they generated within us apart from God's working? To say that any good thing comes from within us and is not a gift from God is Arminian in concept.

Sing "Often a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive
understanding of the issue. ... If you understand the few lines above, then
you will appreciate that your question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR
very specific. "Can a person be walking around saved" - saved in what
sense? Saved from eternal condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or saved from ignorance and unbelief through the gospel ministry?"

Well, let me try to ask less vague questions so as to not reveal my naivety or simplicity, and maybe you won't dance around the issue any longer <g> now that I've come to better understand your terminology:
1. Is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?
2. Also, for clarification sake (not to be redundant), can a normal adult elect person go to heaven without belief (exercising faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord) if he never hears the external call, since as you say he is already eternally saved.
3. Finally, when are the elect eternally saved? At election time, before the foundation of the earth? At the time of the crucifixion of Jesus? Or at some other time?

Please answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me understand your position.

God bless you,
Keith

===========

Sing
Tue, Apr 1, 2008, 1:34 AM

Hello Keith,
Faith is a grace (one of many graces) worked in the heart of a child of God (i.e. regenerated). And this grace of faith enables a child of God to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ when the gospel is preached to him.

Keith: I think I previously detailed exactly this question when I asked if faith was deserved or undeserved. If faith is an undeserved grace worked in the heart (I am supposing you mean worked in the heart by the Spirit), then it is a gift. What else can it be? If you say the faith we have is not a gift, or that we deserve the faith, then the faith is ours and not of gift from God.

Since faith is a grace worked within the heart of a child of God, it is not right to describe it as a gift. Doing so not only confuses but also goes against the usage of the Bible. The Scriptures do not speak of other graces worked in the heart of a child of God as 'gifts.'

Eternal salvation is a gift, eternal life is a gift, and imputed righteousness is a gift. But faith is ONE of the many effects worked in the heart of a child of God. To confuse an effect of the gift with the gift itself is a very careless way of speaking, I think.

You quote: Gal:5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..." Don't these all come from God as gifts, or are they generated within us apart from God's working? To say that any good thing comes from within us and is not a gift from God is Arminian in concept.

## These are worked within us by the indwelling Spirit of God. So, there isn't the slightest hint that these graces are self-generated within us *apart* from God's working. Your rhetorical question is misguided. The gift of eternal salvation comes from WITHOUT, without involving the elect in any way; graces are worked from WITHIN the child of God, requiring the child of God to exercise them. It is MISLEADING to call them gifts, I think.

Keith: Often a demand for a 'yes' and 'no' answer reveals simplistic and naive understanding of the issue. ... If you understand the few lines above, then you will appreciate that your question is VERY VAGUE... not so direct NOR very specific. "Can a person be walking around saved" - saved in what sense? Saved from eternal condemnation by God's free and sovereign grace, or saved from ignorance and unbelief through the gospel ministry?
Well, let me try to ask less vague questions so as to not reveal my naivety
or simplicity, and maybe you won't dance around the issue any longer <g> now that I've come to better understand your terminology:

I do believe you are a VERY patient veteran in the faith by the questions you asked.

The truth is, even the veteran in the faith has need to learn the faith more completely. No one has ever arrived - not even Calvin or Gill.

1. Is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?

If I understand your question correctly, then you are asking, "is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being reached by the gospel"?

Then my simple answer is YES. There are such people that the gospel failed to reach in each generation since the beginning of history. And my explanation is quite simple too: I read in Re 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." There are kindred, AND tongue, AND people, AND nation in human history that had disappeared before the gospel message was ever brought to them. But I read that Christ has redeemed His people out of "EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

I believe the ministry of the gospel is the means for the temporal salvation of His children. However, I am NOT saying that therefore without the ministry of the gospel, there is no temporal salvation experienced by God's children at all. Let me explain.

When God effectually calls an elect out of the state of sins and death to that of grace and salvation, the justification applied personally, regeneration, adoption, and the indwelling Spirit working in the hearts bring about a radical change in this elect.

At effectual calling, the whole man is radically transformed. The whole man is acted upon by the grace of God, enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh: renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing and uniting them to Jesus Christ. Therefore, it is impossible for an effectually called elect to continue living in sins just as before, as though no effectual call unto eternal life by divine grace has taken place. Abraham and Cornelius are classic examples.

When God regenerates an elect, He puts His laws in his mind and writes them on his heart. He is called out of that state of sin and death that he is in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ, i.e., he is called to eternal life in Jesus Christ. As a result he ‘fears God’ and ‘works righteousness.’ He is STILL IGNORANT of the gospel of Jesus Christ - the good news of his salvation by God's free grace through the finished works of Jesus Christ. A man who fears God and works righteousness, even though the gospel ministry failed to reach him, DOES experience temporal salvation from the ravages and consequences of sins here and now.

So, if I answer your question, "is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?" in light of what I said in the paragraph above, then the answer is, NOT POSSIBLE.

But the temporal salvation that comes from having the knowledge of salvation by God's free grace through the INSTRUMENTALITY of the ministry of the gospel is something different.

That explains the great urgency of bringing the gospel to him, that he may be brought to know the good news of the salvation that God has accomplished for him and applied in him personally. Cornelius was one such man. The Ethiopian eunuch was another. The ‘god-fearing’ Jews that were converted on the day of Pentecost were also in this category. Natural man does not fear God… he is at enmity against God. The effectual call of God produces God-fearing men who need to be brought to faith in Jesus Christ. “And you… will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, to give knowledge of salvation to His people… to give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Long answer for a short question. Sorry to bore you.

2. Also, for clarification sake (not to be redundant), can a normal adult elect person go to heaven without belief (exercising faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord) if he never hears the external call, since as you say he is already eternally saved.

Your question reminds me of Paul's words.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

How can a normal adult that is already eternally saved ever believe if the gospel ministry failed to reach him? VERY many RBs believe that absolutely every eternally saved normal adult is reached with the gospel, and there were/are no elect of God in places where the gospel had not reached.

I have said often enough, the gospel ministry has relevance only to the children of God... good news of eternal salvation has relevance to the recipients of the same salvation. It has no relevance to all others... it is foolishness to them.

If you have in mind a normal adult that is already eternally saved, i.e. bestowed with eternal salvation by the free grace of God, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the heart, then that normal elect SHALL MOST CERTAINLY GO TO HEAVEN. His eternal salvation by God's free grace includes eternal glory in heaven REGARDLESS of whether he enjoyed little or much temporal salvation while on earth.

Any man's (normal, abnormal, etc) going to heaven is dependent upon the free and sovereign gracious act of God in effectually calling him out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation; it is NOT dependent upon man in any remote way. However, his temporal salvation is conditioned and dependent upon the faithfulness of His people in administering the means appointed toward such ends, i.e. the ministry of the word, and our obedience response to it.

His redeemed life here on earth would be so much the poorer if the gospel ministry failed to reach him; his life would be so much the richer if he is made a disciple through the ministry of the gospel. That reminds us of the urgency and necessity of the ministry of the gospel - not as a means to bring eternal life to God's elect, but to bring the knowledge of salvation to God's children (already effectually called to eternal life).

3. Finally, when are the elect eternally saved? At election time before the foundation of the earth? At the time of the crucifixion of Jesus? Or at some other time?

It really depends on what you are asking. It is like asking Paul, 'when were you saved?' See a short article in a separate email.

There are FIVE phases of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures.
Tell me which phase you are inquiring.

Whichever phase, let me say that BELIEVING DOES NOT in any remotest sense involve in getting eternal salvation at all. One must be eternally saved, i.e. bestowed with eternal salvation first, before one can ever believe the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ when reached with the ministry of the gospel. Believing gives evidence of the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's free grace.

The Scriptures declares, 'whoever believes HAVE eternal life.'
Many Reformed people pervert and twist this simple declaration about the believing ones into this: "whoever will believe shall have eternal life" making it an conditional offer to the spiritually dead, calling the spiritually dead to believe in order to obtain eternal life.

Please answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me understand your position.

Well, I have tried in the way you wanted. I don't know whether they help or not. I have answered the same type of questions from the local RBs here for many years.

May the Lord bless you. It is 1.35AM here. I am hitting the sack. Got to send children to school at 6.45am.

God bless you.
sing

==========

Keith
Apr 1, 2008, 4:56 AM
Hello Sing,

Sing: "If I understand your question correctly, then you are asking, is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being reached by the gospel"? Then my simple answer is YES.

Thank you for a direct answer.

Sing: However, I am NOT saying that therefore without the ministry of the gospel, there is no temporal salvation experienced by God's children at all. Let me explain.

I basically understand your position.

Sing: When God regenerates an elect ... He is STILL IGNORANT of the gospel of Jesus Christ

Understood.

Sing: So, if I answer your question, "is it possible for a normal adult person to be eternally saved and die without being temporally saved?" in light of what I said in the paragraph above, then the answer is, NOT POSSIBLE.

I am glad you explained this part of your belief.

Sing: Long answer for a short question. Sorry to bore you.

It was not boring at all; I am glad you explained your position so well.
(Probably saved a few emails! <g>)

Sing: Concerning a normal adult who has never heard the gospel, you replied, he can go to heaven if he is eternally saved: Sing: If you have in mind a normal adult that is already eternally saved, i.e. bestowed with eternal salvation by the free grace of God, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted, and given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the heart, that that normal elect SHALL MOST CERTAINLY GO TO HEAVEN. His eternal salvation by God's free grace includes eternal glory in heaven REGARDLESS of whether he enjoyed little or much temporal salvation while on earth. ... His redeemed life here on earth would be so much the poorer if the gospel ministry failed to reach him; his life would be so much the richer if he is made a disciple through the ministry of the gospel.

I get your point; thanks.

Sing: That reminds us of the urgency and necessity of the ministry of the gospel - not as a means to bring eternal life to God's elect, but to bring the knowledge of salvation to God's children (already effectually called to eternal life).

I am glad that you seem to be evangelistic. I was wondering about that.

Keith: Finally, when are the elect eternally saved? At election time before the foundation of the earth? At the time of the crucifixion of Jesus? Or at some other time?

Sing: It really depends on what you are asking. It is like asking Paul, 'when were you saved?' See a short article in a separate email.

I am looking forward to receiving that separate email.

Sing: There are FIVE facets of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures. Tell me which facet you are inquiring.

I was asking about when a person is "eternally saved" - the terminology you used. When does this happen? I know you say it is before a person believes. When is the "eternally saved" process started? When is it completed? You say there are 5 facets, so maybe "eternally saved" happens over a period of time.

I know the scriptures speak of salvation in various aspects, such as we were saved in the past, we are currently being saved, and we will be saved in the future. And the "past" aspect has a whole lot associated with it.

Looking forward to seeing what you say about the timing of being "eternally saved" and its 5 phases. Oh, and can you throw in where regeneration fits into your system? :) That would be helpful. Thanks for answering my questions.

Sing: Please answer the above three questions in a direct manner. It will help me understand your position. Well, I have tried in the way you wanted. I don't know whether they help or not.

Yes, it has helped! You are explaining fine.

Sing: It is 1.35AM here. I am hitting the sack.

A late owl - like me! :) Hope you get enough sleep. Where exactly are you located in the East? And what is your primary language?

In Christian love,
Keith

========

Sing
Apr 1, 2008, 11:36 AM

Hello Keith,

Keith: I am glad that you seem to be evangelistic. I was wondering about that.

I am tickled... nearly every RB labels me a hyper-calvinist before they heard or understood a quarter of a sentence I wrote!

The ministry of the gospel is VERY NECESSARY. But necessary for what? For God's ordained purpose, or man's imagined purpose.

That's where the great divide between those who DO understand salvation by free grace alone in its biblical sense, and those who fail to understand salvation by free grace alone.

Sing: There are FIVE facets of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures. Tell me which phase you are inquiring.

Keith: I was asking about when a person is "eternally saved" - the terminology you used. When does this happen? I know you say it is before a person believes. When is the "eternally saved" process started? When is it completed? You say there are 5 facets, so maybe "eternally saved" happens over a period of time.

## OK I will be brief: The FIVE aspects of salvation are these:

1. The decreetal aspect: when God decreed to predestinate them to eternal salvation before time. Eternal salvation is decreed for them before time.
- Based on this w,e have the second aspect...

2. The legal aspect when Christ secured their eternal salvation on the cross.
- Christ's righteousness is imputed to all he represented, and all their sins were imputed to Him, and he suffered for them all, thus eternal salvation was legally secured for them all. Adam in his act of sin brought legal condemnation upon all.
- Eternal salvation is secured for them at the cross. They are eternally saved in the legal sense.
- Based on this, whether prospectively or retrospectively, we have the third aspect...

3. The vital/personal aspect when God, by His Word and Spirit (the three persons of the Trinity), effectually calls an elect out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
- This happens when an elect is dead in sins and trespasses, when he is in the state of sin and death; therefore, he is entirely PASSIVE when eternal salvation was freely APPLIED to him. Until effectually called out of the native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation, an elect remains vitally and personally a child of wrath. An elect in his native state, even as others, is ACTIVELY in rebellion and enmity against God

- Eternal salvation is applied to an elect PERSONALLY, making it vital.

- The effectual call is wholly MONERGISTC, by free and sovereign act of God alone.

- The effectual call IS NOT the same a regeneration. It is more than regeneration.

- This effectual call out of the state of sins and death NECESSARILY INVOLVES these monergistic divine acts: justification applied personally (what was legal become personal) required to reverse the state of personal condemnation because of sin, regeneration to reverse the state of death because of sin, adoption to reverse the state of alienation. With the adoption, the Spirit of adoption is given (a gift from without!) to dwell in the adopted child. All these acts happen when an elect is in the state of sin and death, by nature in enmity and rebellion against God.

- All these monergistic acts happen simultaneously, BUT in that logical order.

- The effectual call of an elect can occur any time between his conception and death.

- The effectual call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation happens to EVERY SINGLE ELECT at God's own appointed and approved time, independent of anything outside of Him.

- Based on this, the fourth aspect is made possible... its fulfilment is conditioned upon various human factors.

- Based on the effectual call out of the native state of sin and condemnation to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, the fifth aspect is ABSOLUTELY guaranteed... its fulfilment based solely upon the sovereign power of God.

4. The practical/evidential/experiential aspect when a child of God (i.e. effectually called) is called out by the ministry of the word/gospel.

- This aspect involves human instrumentality and human responses.

- Some of God's children have the benefits of the gospel ministry. Those who do have the ministry, they sit under ministry of different quality... some very good, others wholly deficient and inferior... under teachers of falsehood... like the Arminian theory of the gospel. I do believe some children of God are actually put of by the perverted gospels hawked by some since preachers, and in the eyes of the 'church' remain unbelieving!

- Some of God's children do not have the benefits of the gospel ministry for all sorts of reasons... some died without ever having the gospel ministry brought to them... these may have died in infancy, or lived in remote places, in places where the gospel is forbidden access, lived before the gospel age, before the missionary movement, some mentally challenged... etc... RBs love to conclude - there can't possibly be any of God's elect there... otherwise God guarantees that they would hear the gospel.

- Whose fault? Part of it, the negligence and failures of the churches in every generation to the bring the gospel to them. Greater part of it... so many churches HAWK false gospels...

- In this aspect, the faith of the believer is imputed to the believer. When faith is imputed to the believer by God, the believer is blessed to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace while in the state of sin and death.

- This is what Gen 15:1-6 is all about. BUT nearly EVERY RBs see Gen 15:1-6 as the third aspect... which is SO OBVIOUSLY WRONG, because such a view necessary implies that prior to Gen 15:1-6, Abraham was an UN-justified man, THAT IS... still under the condemnation of death!!! There is imputation of faith here, and NO imputation of Christ's righteousness... EVERY RBs I have known REFUSES to acknowledge the difference. [see a separate mail - a hard nut for the RBs].

- That's the case with the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius, Lydia, etc... That was what Martin Luther discovered too.

- The justification by God's free grace (the third aspect) CAN ONLY BE EXPERIENCED by faith in Jesus Christ

- They don't see the OBVIOUS error because they have CONFUSE this fourth aspect as the third aspect.

- In many passages where we read, 'shall be saved' - this is the aspect of salvation referred to when 'shall be saved' is conditioned upon any act of man. Temporal salvation is conditioned upon the obedience response of God's children to the ministry of the word.

5. The final/consummative aspect at the return of Christ for His people...

- You can flesh out this skeleton very easily yourself.

- This aspect is wholly monergistic... the glorification of every elect of God is absolutely guaranteed... whether one is pathetic Lot or Solomon, or Abraham or Paul.

- Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Every action here is solely monergistic... and is true of ABSOLUTELY every elect of God. Anything that is conditioned upon the responses of man is NOT INCLUDED here... they are all ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDED.

- Justification here is obviously the THIRD aspect... because it has to be true of every elect, and therefore without and before faith. EVERY Reformed man I know (whether Bapty, e.g. Sam Waldron, or Presby , e.g. John Murray the god-father of the RBs <grin>) insist that it is the justification by faith, the act of believing.

Keith: I know the scriptures speak of salvation in various aspects, such as we were saved in the past, we are currently being saved, and we will be saved in the future. And the "past" aspect has a whole lot associated with it.

How does what I have written above mesh in with your understanding of salvation in its various aspects?

Keith: Looking forward to seeing what you say about the timing of being "eternally saved" and its 5 facets. Oh, and can you throw in where regeneration fits into your system? :) That would be helpful. Thanks for answering my questions.

Do you see what you want to know from what I have written above? If not, let me know.

Keith: A late owl - like me! :) Hope you get enough sleep. Where exactly are you located in the East? And what is your primary language?

I am in Penang, a very tiny island at the northern end of the west coast of Peninsular Malaysia.

Exactly - 5'20" North, 100'15" East. There are many US multinational company on the island's FTZ.

My primary languages are Malay and Chinese, with tolerable proficiency in Chinglish (Chinese version of Queen's English... structure and expression often 'contaminated' by Chinese language.)

sing