The only thing that HAS FITTED - perfectly
and completely - anyone for heaven is the finished work of Christ alone.
"And a vision appeared to Paul in the
night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into
Macedonia, and help us."
The Macedonian who called upon Apostle Paul to
come and preach the gospel to them, was he already regenerated, or was he still
dead in trespasses and sins, and needed the gospel preaching to be regenerated?
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."
Was Lydia ALREADY regenerated before Apostle Paul met her, or was she regenerated through the preaching of Apostle Paul?
Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?
Preaching the gospel is very necessary, but it is necessary ONLY for the purpose for which it was divinely ordained.
What did Paul's evangelism accomplish in Lydia?
==========
Constanzia ·
I always felt like he WAS regenerated.. why
else would he care enough to listen to Paul or call for him in the first place?
Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?
YES
The Lord is the only one who has the power to
change someone. I think opening her heart is the same as regenerating her. He
didnt need Paul " but it is necessary ONLY for the purpose for which it
was divinely ordained."
Regeneration happens when God wants it to..
Pharoah was ready to cave several times but God harden his heart because (I
think) God wanted people to witness 'more of' his awesome power. Not only to
prove a point but to seal, stamp it and send it home HARD.
Saul on the road to Damascus saw the vision..
there is no mention of someone preaching to him before hand.. He was really bad..
persecuting Christians and all.. His heart was open because God wanted him...
His own agenda didnt matter, he stopped dead in his tracks lol literally. God
is the one with the power to open even the most unlikely of hearts// regenerate
them.
I hope all that made sense, it did in my head
lol
Constanzia
As I said in my earlier post and forgot to
mention it to tie it into what I was just saying.. I think regeneration has a
lot to do with being open hearing and understanding. If a person is not regenerated
they can not/will not 'hear'..
Constanzia
Ironically enough I was reading tonight and I
came across some scripture that said what I was trying to 🙂
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy
on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have
compassion.
**16 So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.***
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even
for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in
thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will
have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:15-18
Sing
"Is the Lord's opening her heart to
understand the things which were spoken to her the same as the Lord regenerating
her from her state of death?"
YES
====
Does that mean that regeneration took place
by the aid of Paul's preaching?
Constanzia
Does that mean that regeneration took place
by the aid of Paul's preaching?
In my opinion, NO. God is the only one with
the power to regenerate (I consider regeneration='Holy Ghost') someone. He does
not need human aid at all. He is Almighty.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
"For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest
any man should boast."
"So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
"For he shall be great in the sight of
the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled
with the Holy ghost, even from his mother's womb" Luke 1:15
Who preached to him?
"With God ALL things are possible"
-Jesus 🙂
Sing
You answered my question,
"Is the Lord's opening her heart to
understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating
her from her state of death?"
in the affirmative... therefore indicating
that the Lord opened Lydia's heart because of hearing the preached word.
Constanzia
Now I am confused..
"Therefore indicating that the Lord
opened Lydia's heart because of hearing the preached word."
Ok.. if this what I said it is not what I
meant. I believe the Lord opens hearts BEFORE hearing the preached word.. How
else would one receive the word?
After more consideration, I am more confused
about regeneration.. I am not sure if is the same thing as open heart.
I think I may have misunderstood the question
or I put worded wrong. Sorry for the confusion lol.
Sing
There is a great distinction between
regenerating a dead person, and opening the heart of a living person to
understand something.
The former is quickening, the latter
enlightening.
Many confuse enlightening a living person as
regenerating a dead person... thus ending with the common error of gospel
regeneration.
Constanzia
See now.. My husband has been trying to
explain that to me, and I just did not get it.. The way you put it makes sense.
I get the difference now.. I think so many
people use them interchangeably.. so that is how I was thinking.
Thank you for making it easier for me to
grasp, brother Sing 🙂 and taking the time to help me understand when some people
would just argue 🙂
 |
"The last state of that man is worse than the first." "Even so, shall it be also unto this wicked generation." |
A frightening warning but few take heed.
———————
Luke 11
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a
man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I
will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept
and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven
other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and
the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Leongsy
Sir, how would you interpret these verses?
sing
The parallel passage in Matthew reads thus.
Matt 12
43 ¶When the unclean spirit is gone out of a
man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house
from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and
garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself
seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell
there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it
be also unto this wicked generation.
Take careful note of the last sentence; it
tells us what Jesus is saying.
Leongsy
But why can the house which has been swept clean
of the Evil spirits be reoccupied with 7 other more wicked spirits? And
this wicked generation is limited to the Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes?
sing
It's
cleansed of ONE evil spirit; not plural spirits.
The house which had been swept clean of the
evil spirit was left EMPTY... it's an open invitation to be reoccupied. That's
why!
The cleansed house did not receive the gospel
of the kingdom of heaven - preached by
Christ and His Apostles - to dwell in it.
In context, the house speaks of Israel of
that generation. Christ's ministry "cleansed" the house of the evil
spirit of lies, traditions and errors, etc... but the house did not receive the
truths taught by Christ, i.e. it's left EMPTY; it is not filled with and
occupied by the truths taught by Christ.
Possessed by one evil spirit is fearful
enough; their rejection of the Messiah made it far far worse, likened as
possessed by an ADDITIONAL 7 other more wicked spirits.
The context is about that devil-possessed
generation which rejected the Messiah... and ended up far worse than before...
making it ripe for the 70 AD judgement - the end of the so-called everlasting
theocratic Israel. God obliterated it at His appointed time.
An application/lesson:
It's dangerous to hear the truths but don't
let them dwell in us and renew and transform our life.
Matthew 13:12 KJT — For whosoever hath, to
him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not,
from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Hearing the truth and not embracing it makes
a man worse off.
God's truth demands reception and
allegiance.
----------
LeongsyNoted with many thanks.
Salvation - past, present, and future
Let's reason a little!
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason
together, saith the LORD.
1. The PAST is what God HAS ALREADY DONE in
Christ to have you saved with eternal salvation...
- He purposed your eternal redemption...
- Christ accomplished your eternal
redemption...
- The Holy Spirit applied the eternal
redemption to you personally...
All these activities are completely by free
grace alone, plus nothing, and completed perfectly. As a result, you ARE
SAVED... as saved as can be while here on earth, and you are completely and
perfectly fit for eternal glory.
These divine activities are WITHOUT and APART
from the gospel ministry.
There is gospel, good news, ONLY BECAUSE these divine
acts HAVE TAKEN PLACE! If these divine activities securing eternal salvation
had not taken place, there would have been NO GOSPEL. There is gospel because
of what God HAS DONE to save His people in Christ Jesus and applied by the Holy
Spirit.
2. The PRESENT is what you, God's children, must do to work out your OWN salvation through your obedience to the Father's will. God works in His children to will and do, but they must will and do the good pleasure of the Father.
This salvation that God's children must work out
for themselves is entirely different from the eternal salvation already
accomplished and applied to them personally. This salvation is ongoing,
involving their temporal well-being as God's children. This is temporal
salvation through the gospel ministry, ministered by faithful men.
3. The FUTURE is what God WILL DO to consummate
your eternal redemption at Christ's return. You await glorification. And this
will be completely by free grace too - WITHOUT any aid or cooperation from men!
--------------------
Sing F Lau
The issue of earning God's favour does not
arise. It is temporal salvation CONDITIONED upon obedience just as you affirmed
- "... IF we only love Him with all our heart and all our soul and all our
strength and all our mind... IF we believe and lay hold on the promises that
God has made."
Sing
And IF you don't obey... then what?
[Someone has deleted all his/her comments]
Sing
If temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon
your works of obedience, then it is no more grace in the sense that eternal
salvation is of grace.
Anything that requires man's activity is no more grace alone.
If you want to have multiple layers, it is fine... a layer of oil, and a layer of water - one salvation by grace alone, and one salvation conditioned on the obedience of God's children.
Sing F Lau
I don't need to separate them... they already
are!
Grace alone is grace alone... requiring no
part of man.
John Flores
"Grace alone is grace alone... requiring
no part of man.
Anything that requires man's activity is no
more grace alone." Well said Pastor Lau. (Romans 11:6)
Sing F Lau
Let me just get one thing clear... and let's
stick to the issue at hand.
Is there a timely salvation that is
CONDITIONED upon the obedience of God's children? Yes, or no.
There is no need to bring in other issues. If
you can keep to this one issue, comment.
Johnny Davis
@Elder Ellis. Regarding the salvation, your
comment affirms the signs on Sing's sign in all directions. My question is not
to provide a license to intentionally commit sin or wrongdoing, but are there
ANY conditions attached to man's life on earth (such as correct understanding
of God's Word, church attendance) that have consequences on the
"future" aspect of God's continued forgiveness? Guess my question is,
do the signs represent God's time (spiritual), or man's time (physical).
Thanks. We've not spoken for a while. I miss your insights from our Father.
Sing F Lau
Penny Karn @ "I believe so Sing!"
You believe what?????? That there is a timely
salvation by God's grace that can be obtained WITHOUT human obedience?
In your effort to magnify grace, you have
actually DENIGRATED and CHEAPENED grace... i.e. insisting both eternal
salvation and temporal salvation are equally by the same grace.
If both are equally by God's grace, then all
of God's elect are equally saved BOTH in the eternal and temporal sense,
without any human activities. But that's denying the HARD facts of Scriptures.
That's not elevating grace... that destroying
grace... making the grace of God incapable of accomplishing its goal.
Scriptures is its own witness:
Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more
of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it
no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
You just won't keep them apart! You cheapen
grace by mixing it with works!
Never mind, go learn from your husband!
Johnny Davis
@Penny. Let me first give my current belief
on the subject of God's grace CONDITIONED on man. IF (another
"condition"), the Word is available to an individual man, THEN
(satisfaction of "condition") the responsibility falls on that
individual, by God from His placing that individual in time and place, to know
of God (more specifically, come to believe the gospel of Jesus, as Messiah from
the sin world). That responsibility lies both with the unbelieving or untaught
individual, and Chrstians, able by our example in life and love for man, to
teach. So, disregarding whether that is 100% true, and the unbelieving
American, becomes a believer by having heard the Word, and BELIEVES and
receives the Holy Spirit, confesses, repents, and is even submersed in water in
baptism, THEN, are there CONDITIONS as Sing speaks of, regarding BOTH, the life
with God in the body, and the life with God eternally in the spirit. I'm not
wishing to extend the nature of God, to those never having the ability by time
and place to "hear." For the moment, only we, having been given by
God, the Word. And, not as a license to live in the flesh, afterwards (please,
don't go there) - I'm interested in knowing the truth of God's Word, from our
time and place, in God's creation on Earth.
Sing F Lau
Penny Karn @ "But I think it is worth
adding that temporal salvation is still completely by grace..."
=======
That's a completely erroneous statement - no
matter how one qualifies and hedges it!!!
"Completely by grace" necessarily
RULES out completely any human activities.
That statement insists that there is temporal
salvation that is COMPLETELY without any human activities. And that's just
sheer nonsense.
And she still goes blah blah blah!!!
I'm puzzled!!
Johnny Davis
@Sing. Gotta stab atch-'ya. We're not in
formal worship service. You have a wonderful wife, from the photos. And, I'd
bet she is as intelligent and smart, as God made her beautiful. You might want
to "go learn from your wife!" some manners. Ladies are better at
that, than we testosterone driven guys, most of the time.
Johnny Davis ·
@Sing. It was an intentional, personal stab
at YOU, not for your anything about the subject, but purely to illustrate how
the "stabs" you make at others, MAY come across to them as hateful.
In that regard, it was a "loving" stab, intended to be
"light-natured." I'll not make another, because more and more, just
leads to the likelihood of mean spirit, sinful. It is the type of thing to say
to me, personally, and why I do not ask you questions, anymore, though the
answers have been helpful, even when given in an inappropriate spirit. I'll
continue to gleen from your status, what God intended to reveal to your
readers, but, communication, from me, will no longer to initiated to you,
difrectly. Hope you understand, my heart's intent, prayerfully. Love you.
Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, I know you are a tender
kindhearted man - I don't think you are ever capable of being mean and hateful.
May be I don't have the finesse people
expected of me... that's an art I have not cultivated. Easier to speak plain
and blunt.
Johnny Davis
@Sing. You have the heart of God, without
doubt.
Cheri Thomas
Stick to your guns, Bro Sing. I appreciate
your 'strong meat' and plain words.
Sing F Lau
Penny, whoever your teachers may be, it is
most certainly NOT the Holy Spirit who taught you to believe that Eph 2:1-8 is
an example of timely salvation!
Have you even understood the concept of
timely salvation?????
Go, please get your husband to teach you a thing or two.
Ephesians 2:1 KJT
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in
trespasses and sins;
It's common sense that life precedes the actions
of that life; faith is an activity of spiritual life. Except a man be born
again (regenerated) with spiritual life, he is still dead in trespasses and
sins, utterly incapable of exercising faith.
EVEN SO...
To say that your faith is the cause of your
justification by God is to put the cart before the horse.
It's equally common sense to say that a man's
justification freely by God precedes his faith in Jesus Christ. Why? You ask.
It's common sense.
An unjustified man is a man still in his
native state of condemnation and death; a man in his native state can't
possibly exercise faith in order to be justified by God. Sola fide is fiction.
Have you not read these words:
Romans 3:24 KJT — Being justified FREELY by
his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:18 KJT — Therefore as by the offence
of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness
of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Adam's sin brought the condemnation of death
upon all represented by him; EVEN SO, Christ's righteousness secured the
justification of life to all represented by Him. Amen.
At the justification freely by God's grace,
the righteousness of Christ is freely APPLIED to an elect personally (it's
already IMPUTED to all the elect during the double imputation at the cross) in
his native state of condemnation and death UNTO the justification of life.
The Father's free and gracious act of
applying Christ's righteousness to the redeemed gives the divine warrant to the
Spirit of God to regenerate such; that is why justification is termed as
justification of life. (Rom 5:18)
Your faith evidences your justified state,
freely by God's grace; even so, your breath evidences the prior impartation of
life; your breath is not the cause of getting you your life.
May the gracious Lord grant you to understand
this blessed good news.
p/s - just in case, if any is misguided in
this too:
- Faith is NOT the gift of God; eternal
salvation is the gift of God, Eph 2:8. Eternal salvation is through the faith
of Christ, i.e. Christ's faithfulness in discharging the redemptive work to
save His people.
- Faith is ONE of the many saving graces
worked in a child of God (an elect that has been justified, regenerated,
adopted and bestowed with the Spirit of adoption to indwell him) by the Holy
Spirit, Gal 5:22.
- A gift comes from without; it's a saving
grace that is worked from within by the indwelling Spirit of God.
May our gracious Lord grant you understanding.
Amen.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Eternal salvation is applied...
