Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Who are the lost?
"The lost" presupposes ownership.
Anything that does not have an owner can't possibly be said to be lost.
The lost refer to those who belong to
Christ.
- They are Christ's possession, given to Him
by God;|
- They are Christ's possession, purchased and
redeemed by Him;
- They are Christ's possession, they are
personally united to Christ at their effectual call to grace and salvation by
God's free grace while dead in their native state of sin and death.
Though effectually called to that state of
grace and salvation at effectual call, they are EXPERIENTIALLY still separated
from Him... i.e. not yet brought to know and believe in their eternal salvation
[ALREADY HAPPENED] by God's free grace in Christ Jesus.
ONLY SUCH lost sheep can be found through the
gospel ministry, and be experientially united to Christ.
How many "missionaries" out there
know this glorious and liberaing truth? Didn't Christ say, "For my yoke is
easy, and my burden is light" Mt 11:30.
How many missionaries out there believe that
their work is find, and turn dead goats into living sheep by their labours? Oh
what oppressive burden sincere missionaries FOOLISHLY impose upon themselves!!!
See that lost sheep in the picture?
It is ALREADY a sheep, Christ's possession,
and given eternal life. It is already alive but it is lost, i.e. not
experientially united to Christ yet. The ministry of the gospel is to bring
such to know the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Christ!!!
The lost sheep has an owner - the shepherd. Luke 15:6 "And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost."
The lost coin has an owner - the woman.
Luke 15:9 "And when she hath found it,
she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me;
for I have found the piece which I had lost.
The lost son has an owner - the father.
Luke 15:24 "For this my son was dead,
and is alive again; he was lost, and is found."
Jesus came to save His people from their sin!
Is that difficult to understand, or is it
too difficult to accept because it goes against your pet ideas?
========
Henry commented about Judas, and the post above was not discussed.
------------
Henry
John 17:12 Judas , the son of perdition , was
lost eternally.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid , it is hid to them that are lost...4) in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believeth not....
Sing F Lau
Henry, you may wish to prove that Judas was
lost ETERNALLY.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the
world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none
of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
"Those that thou gavest me I have kept,
and not of them is lost..."
The disjunctive "but" - does it
refer to Jesus purposely not keeping Judas so that the Scripture might be
fulfilled, or that Jesus helplessly lost Judas? Pick your choice... just don't
contradict Christ's word.
Sing F Lau
Henry, you may wish to prove first that all
of Christ sheep will also hear and believe the gospel. Thanks.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid ,
it is hid to them that are lost...4) in whom the god of this world hath blinded
the minds of them which believeth not....
The gospel does not need to be hidden from
the spiritually dead...
The spiritually dead is blind enough
already... the god of this do not waste time blinding them.
It is God's children that are prevented from
believing!
Beware of sound bytes!
Get the sense!!! They are different things.
Hulan Bass
All Sheep and All Goats were lost in Adam's
Fall, but on the SHEEP have a Redeemer - Matt. 25:31--34, 41.
Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan, are the goats among the lost in
Christ's statement below:
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek
and to save that which was lost.
Thank you.
Hulan Bass
All Humanity, figuratively and in an analogy,
is only listed as SHEEP and GOATS. Only the Sheep are IN Christ, and their names
were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the World.
Many texts for proof. Rev. 20:12---15.
Sing F Lau
Did you answer my specific question?
Hulan Bass
Only those LOST IN CHRIST were His Sheep.
Even some of His Sheep get lost TIMELY or GOSPELLY. Read: Luke 15:1---6.
Henry
What I am trying to point out here brother
Sing is the word "lost" can be used to a lost sheep or a lost person
eternally like Judas .
Sing F Lau
I understand that's what you are saying...
which is why I suggest that you may want to show us that Judas was lost
eternally.
Henry
Son of perdition, means lost eternally .
Luke 22:3 Satan entered into Judas...
John 6:70 ... I chose twelve of you , and one
of you is a devil .
Judas is a devil , son of perdition and is
lost eternally .
Perdition means eternal damnation.
Sing F Lau
Where did you get the idea that perdition
means ETERNAL damnation?
Please give some evidence! Thanks.
If Judas is a devil, Peter would be a
satan!!! <LOL>
Dellis Worsham Sr.
Hi Sing, Is it Ok, if I share this thought
with some friends of mine? The one in the OP?
Henry
There is no scripture that says Peter is a
son of perdition or a devil or lost . I dont know about you brother Sing if you
are just listening to your own opinion and not to the scripture . You are
strange .
Where do you get the meaning of words bro Sing?
Henry
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by
any means : for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first
, and that man of sin be revealed , THE SON OF PERDITION;
How do you understand the son of perdition
here bro Sing ? LOST SHEEP? 🙂
Sing F Lau
@ There is no scripture that says Peter is a
son of perdition or a devil or lost .
=========
Mt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter,
Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not
the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I don't know about you brother Henry if you
are just listening to your own opinion and not to the scripture . You are
strange!!!
Where do you get the meaning of words - Judas
was LOST...
- LOST in what sense?
- In what sense was Judas was a son of
PERDITION? What does that term mean?
You have ASSUMED that that means he was LOST
ETERNALLY.
I'm only asking you to prove that assertion.
What does the term "child of hell"
mean? Such is lost eternally too?
Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is
made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Are you listening to your own voice, and
inquire no further?
At least entertain my questions. If you think they are nonsensical, say it and tell us why?
Willy Keat
Sing, why I always see you debating and
challenging other believers about the doctrine or your theology....why can't you
share something about your work or church ministry to the people.........I
think you wasted a lot of your time....hope you spend your free time visiting
friends who are sick or needed help....
Sing F Lau
Hi Willy, my work and my ministry is not
important. The truth of God is important... my calling is to be a pastor
teacher.
You should visit the sick, and those in need
of help. Jas 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father
is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep
himself unspotted from the world." This passage is addressed to believers
in general.
You will probably say Lim Kit Siang wastes a
lot of time debating about big issues in Parliament... you would advise him to
make himself useful by turun padang and sort out the clogged drains, garbage
collection, etc, etc.... Him debating against the unmo-ism and bn-ism is
wasting a lot of time!!! Many say, "don't vote for Lim in Gelang Patah...
because he will not be around to serve the people. Such stupid folks don't
understand... Uncle Kit best serves the people by debating BIG issues of good
governance in the Parliament.
A useful way a pastor teacher helps others is
to direct them back to the word of God, and away from their imagination. If
pastors teachers fail to do that, Christ's sheep will end up believing in
FABLES!!!
Willy, this is addressed to believers like
you: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common
salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye
should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the
saints." Jude 3
Willy, this is addressed to people like me:
4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and
the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing
and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out
of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not
endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves
teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from
the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure
afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Think about what I say, and may the Lord
bless you.
Henry
Brother Sing , you need to go back to school
and learn basic English .
In reference to Jesus calling Peter Satan ,
Satan is a name , it does not specify Peter . Satan being a prince of this
world , only minds worldly things .
In other words , Jesus just likened him to
Satan , no connection to the state of Peter .
Unlike lost , son of perdition , devil , are modifiers of a noun , specifies a noun , denotes the quality of a person and specifies the distinction to others .
Sing F Lau
Thanks. I go to school everyday... an
e-school, learning from other students of God's word, and English as well from
men like you!
Teach yourself with your own words....,
"In other words , Jesus just likened him (Judas) to a devil, no connection to the state of Judas."
Henry
"Lost" or " son of perdition
" is an adjective . Not like" Satan " is a noun .
Sing F Lau
"Son of perdition" is a PHRASAL
NOUN, not an adjective!
"Lost" in John 17:12 is a verb.
"Lost" can be a noun too, referring
to that which is in the state of lostness, separated from the owner.
I know a little bit of English too! I do
teach a little bit of English at secondary school to help meet the needs of the
family.
Henry
Le me give you other interpretations of John
17:12
The Living Bible
John 17:12 During my time here I have kept
safe within your family all of these you gave me. I guarded them so that none
perished, except the son of hell , as the scriptures foretold .
"none perished but Judas , the son of
hell " the scriptures say "
"None of them is lost but Judas , the
son of perdition "
Judas is lost , lost eternally and he
PERISHED"
You are funny bro Sing...
Sing F Lau
Yes, I'm funny in that I love to point out
the inconsistencies and contradiction in a interpretation.
John 17:12 "While I was with them in the
world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none
of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be
fulfilled."
John 6:39 "And this is the Father’s will
which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day."
Interpreting John 17:12 the way you do - i.e.
Judas is ETERNALLY LOST - contradicts John 6:39. Such interpretation contradict
Christ's very own words.
John 17:12 does say Judas is LOST. It is an
IMAGINATION to say that he is eternally lost. Christ Himself declares in no
uncertain term - All which the Father has given to Him, He should lose nothing
ETERNALLY... i.e. raise them up at the last day... i.e. SAVED THEM ETERNALLY.
Yes, I'm funny. I just want to be honest with
Scriptures... and abhor adding fancy ideas to it.
Thanks for the exchanges.
Henry
There is no contradiction brother Sing . You
have to consider the sequence of the scriptures . John 17:12 came later and it
superceded John 6:39 . If it is a book , it got revised . The two scriptures
are still related but John 7:12 is more specific than John 6.39.
I like you brother Sing . You make me study harder . 🙂
Sing F Lau
Therein lies a big problem... you have just
conceded that there are contradictions in the Bible.... one passage superseded
the other!!!
The answer is not that one superseded the
other.
The answer lies in RIGHTLY dividing the word
of truth.
In one passage, Christ speaks of TEMPORAL
salvation... John 17:12... i.e. salvation relating to Judas temporal well being
and usefulness. In that sense, Judas was LOST, completely lost... with his premature
and horrendous death with no further usefulness in Christ kingdom!!!! He messed
it up big time!!!
In another, Christ speaks of ETERNAL
salvation... i.e. John 6:39. Judas was one among all them that God the Father
has given to Christ to redeem. Christ did not lose anyone.... "that of all
which he hath given me, I should lose nothing." BUT you insist
otherwise... that Christ did lose one, i.e. Judas is ETERNALLY lost!
I don't like you because you can ADD to
Scriptures with such ease... <LOOOOOOOOOL> Like so many others, when the
Scriptures say "life", they conveniently and CARELESSLY read it as
"eternal life"!!! Even so, you insist that Judas is "ETERNALLY
lost" even though the Scriptures say nothing to such effect!!!
For a good example Mt 7:13-14.
Henry
I did not add anything to the scriptures
.They are both right at their own state . If you say they contradict and you
are only siding on John 6:39 , then you are making the other verse wrong .
They are both right ! And again , John 7:12
is more precise ! It is the conclusion of John 6:39 . 🙂
John 7:12 ... None was lost but Judas!
...None perished but Judas!
Sing F Lau
Let the readers do their own conclusion then.
I must conclude that your interpretation
requires that Jesus made an erroneous statement in John 6:39, which needed
correction later on.
I said your interpretation makes the two
passages CONTRADICT themselves.
I have shown you how the two passages are in
perfect harmony when rightly divided. It is your interpretation that makes the
two passages to contradict.
Of course you DID add to Scriptures... which
is what started of this exchanges. You insisted that Judas was ETERNALLY lost.
Thanks.
Henry
Judas was called son of perdition .
Perdition means eternal damnation .
Damnation means the state of being damned.
Damn means to condemn to HELL !
Sing F Lau
You are REPEATING the same thing, and not
proving anything.
Please prove that "perdition" means
eternal damnation. That's all I'm asking. That would be an easy task if there
is any truth in your assertion.
Repetition and assertion proves nothing!
<LOL>
Henry
Thats what the scripture says . I dont have
to prove anything .
Sing F Lau
"Damn means to condemn to HELL!"
May I help you?
Here are 3 occasions "damned" is
used in the KJV.
Does your interpretation suit any of these?
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized
shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(note that damned and saved are used as
opposite. According to your definition, unbelief damns a man to hell; and
belief saves a man unto heaven! It seems that your believe in a work-based
salvation!!!)
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he
eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
(according to your definition, he that
doubted... is damned to hell... O Lord, have mercy!!!)
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who
believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(who does the pronoun "they" refer
to? Are they damned to hell for their unbelief? Is that the only meaning of
damned... unto hell?)
Henry
The subject here are entirely different .
Where is the word perdition ?
The origin of eternal damnation is the word
perdition . NOT damn .
What you are stating bro Sing is entirely no
relevance .
Sing F Lau
Thats what the scripture says . I dont have
to prove anything .
======
Any fool can claim, "That's what the
scripture says."
Henry
Any fool can claim? What verse ?
Sing F Lau
Henry, you said, "Damn means to condemn
to HELL !"
I have just shown you that the word
"damn" is not used with the sense you imposed upon it!!!
Sing F Lau
Any fool can claim ? What verse ?
=========
Any fool can claim his opinion as the
teaching of Scriptures.
You INSISTED "Damn means to condemn to
HELL!"
Yes, what verse say that "Damn means to
condemn to HELL!"
Henry
Perdition is the key word bro Sing . NOT
damn.
You said any fool can claim?
What verse or passage or scripture or holy
writ ?
Henry
So a lot of senior pastors that taught me of
what I am explaining now are fools also BUT you ?
Sing F Lau
Ok, since you are fixated on the word
perdition, and INSIST that perdition means "eternal damnation consider these
passages:
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into
temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown
men in destruction and perdition.
(who does the pronoun "they" refer
to - God's children, or those dead in trespasses and sins. If the former, do
God's children that will be rich drown in the damnation of hell?)
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw
back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(God's children among the Jews who draw back
into the old covenant... did they ended in eternal hell?)
Sing F Lau
Perdition is the key word bro Sing . NOT
damn.
===========
You used both!!! Here.....
Judas was called son of perdition .
Perdition means eternal damnation .
Damnation means the state of being damned.
Damn means to condemn to HELL !
Henry
They , them - are pronouns for the lost.
We , us , you - are pronouns for the elect.
Sing F Lau
Yes, it is very easy for any one - whether
senior pastor or professor to claim, "That's what the scripture says"
to validate his opinions.
Perdition (8x) and destruction (5x) are
translated from the same word "apōleia".
They do not means ETERNAL destruction as you
insisted.
Sing F Lau
They , them - are pronouns for the lost.
We , us , you - are pronouns for the elect.
========
Therein lie your basic error.
If you are consistent, then you have say
this:
======
They , them - are pronouns for the lost.
We , us , you - are pronouns for the saved.
======
Or
They , them - are pronouns for the NON-elect.
We , us , you - are pronouns for the elect.
======
Lost and Saved go together; and
Elect and Non-elect is a pair.
Let's go along with your idea that the lost
are the NON-elect.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into
temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown
men in destruction and perdition.
Why would Paul bother telling the NON-elect
who are already under eternal damnation in their native state of FALLING into
temptation and a snare... blah blah blah????
1Tim 6:9 is a COMPLETE waste and utterly
foolish if it is speaking of the NON-elect!
It makes a whole lot of sense if Paul is
warning against God's children that foolishly will be rich! There are God's
children who are lost - much like the prodigal son!
Henry
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man daceive you by
any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first
,and that man of sin be revealed , the SON OF PERDITION ;
I asked you about this verse earlier bro Sing
. How do you understand the "son of perdition" here ?
Lost sheep ? Eternally saved?
Sing F Lau
And from this verse you INSISTED that Judas
was eternally damned???? Please show that it does that.
You insisted John 17:12 teaches that Judas is
ETERNALLY damned. I asked you to prove your claim. Is 2Th 2:3 your proof?
I'll read your answer tomorrow. Knocking off now. Thanks.
