Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Dr. M Morrow
Sing,  I thank you for your answer to my last question. Here are a couple more... again, I am being honest and wondering how someone who holds your theological position thinks about these things. 

When Paul was on trial and said to Agrippa (Acts 26: 29) that he desired that he (Agrippa) and all that heard Paul speak that day were like him (Paul), that is, Christians, was Paul expressing a fleshly desire?  Also, in Romans 9, when Paul expressed a desire for his brethren (in the flesh), fleshly Israel might be saved...even (were it possible...) the sacrifice of his own soul...for their salvation... was that fleshly and wrong? 
Just wondering how you deal with these passages because they seem at first glance to express a desire in Paul's heart for the salvation of people who obviously were not elect people.

Thanks, your learning brother,
Michael Morrow

================

Brother Morrow,
You ask really good questions. I am always being taught by good questions - they drive me to study the Scriptures.

Let me make sure I get your question correct.
" 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Was Paul expressing a fleshly desire?

No, not at all, but a true and sincere HUMAN desire, a genuine expression of the great commandment: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." A child of God desires good for his fellow men generally... He desired for them the transformation that he had... once a blasphemous enemy of the gospel, but now a follower of Jesus Christ.

The desire of God is compatible with His will and decree. He WILL NOT desire nor command those for whom He did not give Christ to be their Saviour to believe Christ Jesus to be their Saviour.

The desire of a child of God is compatible with God's will for him... "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself", and that includes desiring the good that one has for the neighbours.

MM @ "Also in Romans 9, when Paul expressed a desire for his brethren (in the flesh), fleshly Israel might be saved...even (were it possible...) the sacrifice of his own soul...for their salvation..was that fleshly and wrong? Just wondering how... you deal with these passages because they seem at first glance to express a desire in Paul's heart for the salvation of people who obviously were not elect people.

The narrative does express Paul's desire for the salvation of the people under consideration... the great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart are sincere and genuine.

There are several considerations here:
- What is the salvation that the apostle desires for the people under consideration? Was it eternal salvation by God's free grace, or a salvation that is dependent upon Paul's life and ministry?
- Would the apostle Paul be speaking of the salvation that is wholly and entirely by the free grace of God that he has so copiously asserted and demonstrated throughout the whole epistle?

I believe the apostle Paul desired the temporal salvation that comes to the children of God among the Jews ONLY through believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

- Who exactly are the people under consideration? Brethren in the flesh. Did he mean 'all the Jews indiscriminately' or God's children who are among the Jews. I believe the context demands the latter.

Apostle Paul was dealing with a very unique problem among the children of God among the Jews - even though they WERE children of God, but BECAUSE of their old covenant background, they found letting go of the old covenant very hard, and enter the kingdom of heaven by believing in Jesus Christ a great stumbling block.

When Apostle Paul stated, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" - it is obvious that his concern WAS NOT with the PHYSICAL Israel, but the spiritual Israel among the Jews. They needed to be brought to the faith. The natural Jews WILL NEVER be able to be brought to the Jews.

"8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us."
=======

What do the words "imparted... also our own souls...?"

John Gill said this:
- but also our own souls, or "lives"; which is the highest expression and strongest proof of love that can be given; and respect is still had to the similitude of the nursing mother, who may be said to impart her blood, for such it her milk diversified, for the nourishment of her children: and such was the great concern of the apostles for the interest of Christ, the spread of the Gospel, and the good of souls, that their lives were not dear unto them, so that these ends might he answered: because ye were dear unto us; both because they were loved by God, redeemed by Christ, regenerated by the Spirit of Christ, and had the image of Christ stamped upon them; and also because that they were their spiritual children; and as children are dear to their parents, so were these to them, even to such a degree, as that, were there a necessity for it, they could freely have laid down their lives for them

Don't confound grace with works

Sir, what about this passage
(the inquirer quoted from NIV)

Romans 10 KJT
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

========

My apologies. I'm catching up.

This passage is an excellent example of the distinction between eternal salvation and temporal salvation. When the students of God's word fail to acknowledge the biblical distinction, they are messed up; they confound grace and works, ALWAYS!

Let's ask a few questions. I teach learners by asking questions so that they will become self-learning.

1. Who is able to confess "Jesus is Lord"? Who is able to believe in his heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead?
- one still dead in their trespasses and sins, OR
- one whom God has already saved, i.e. effectually called out of his native state of condemnation, death, and alienation to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus?

2. If the latter, what will his believing the truths of his salvation in Jesus Christ save him FROM then?

3. What did God, in Jesus Christ, save him from?

4. Is the salvation freely bestowed to him by the grace of God in Jesus Christ the same as the salvation that will be obtained by his work of believing the truth of his salvation?
- Why?

5. "...that you believe and are justified..." (from NIV)
- How does your act of believing justify you?
- How did God justify you?

The right answers to these questions will put you a few light-years ahead of not a few reformed and deformed theologians. 

The Order of the Salvation by Grace

September 21, 2023

#orderofsalvation

Romans 8:30 KJT
Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

#salvation_purposed
#salvation_accomplished
#salvation_applied
       (#salvation_experienced)
#salvation_consummated

God sovereignly purposed the eternal salvation of His elect in eternity;

Christ sovereignly accomplished the eternal salvation of all the elect on the cross.

The eternal salvation purposed and accomplished is sovereignly applied to each elect personally in the effectual calling of each elect out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.

To call an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, these divine activities must take place, in this number and logical order:

- justification by God's grace to deal with the condemnation (justification reverses the condemnation due to sins;)

- regeneration by the Spirit of God to deal with the spiritual deadness due to sins (regeneration quickens the dead with eternal life;)

- adoption by the Father into the divine family to deal with the alienation due to sins. Adoption is always accompanied by the bestowal of the Spirit to dwell in the adopted.

These divine activities - three in number, and in that logical number - are necessary to bring an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.

This divine call is always effectual; it always accomplishes its purpose and end - WITHOUT any aid on the part of man whatsoever.
The effect is immutable; once effectually called by God, one remains immutably called. Nothing further is needed on his part for his glorification. The effectually called are perfectly fit for eternal glory. Nothing further is required; they have been saved by grace alone. The divine effectual call deals with their *BEING* as the children of God.

1 John 3:1 KJV — "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not."

God is not just interested in making His elect fit for heaven; He wants them to be informed and useful in their brief lives here on earth. To this end, the gospel ministry was ordained to call out His effectually called children and gather them into local churches under the Headship of Jesus Christ. This is DISCIPLESHIP; this requires the active part of the effectually called to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling; they are responsible for their spiritual *WELLBEING* as they journey through this world.

Meditate on these things.

They will get you beyond and above the reformed shibboleths.

[9/14, 9:42 PM] Sing Lau:

Concerning sanctification:

There are what the theologians termed "definitive sanctification" and "practical sanctification."

The effectual call definitively, once for all and immutably sets an elect apart from condemnation, death, and alienation to that of grace and eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.

The definitive sanctification is wholly by divine activities alone; it makes practical sanctification in His children possible. The gospel ministry is the divinely appointed means for the practical ongoing sanctification of His children here on earth.

[9/14, 9.48 PM] 
SDC inquirer - Leongsy
Positional sanctification and progressive sanctification

9/14, 10.02 PM]
Sing Lau:
Positional is a good term, it deals with the objective standing or status of a person.

Progressive is an unfortunate term: it implies linear progress, which is rarely true. So many of God's children make shipwrecks of their faith, with no progress whatsoever. Because of this "progressive" understanding, the reformed people will write off God's children as not being God's children because they failed to make the progress expected... that the fruitless hearers cannot possibly be the children of God...

[9/14, 10.04 PM]
SDC inquirer:
So u don't agree that those who are fruitless are not saved?

9/15, 1 9.22 PM]
Sing Lau:
Do remember a few things:
i. The parable describes something about the kingdom of God  - how the people in the kingdom of God hear the preached word. The parable is about the good and poor discipleship of God's children concerning the hearing of God's word.

- The 4 types of hearers are all God's children, those already saved by God.

ii. Common sense tells us that fruitfulness is expected of those who are spiritually alive, i.e. those whom God HAS SAVED by His grace in Jesus Christ.

- Only those lacking common sense expect fruitfulness from spiritually dead hearers.

- living plants that are fruitless is a sad reality. Only foolish people complain about the fruitlessness of a dead plant.

iii. Fruit-bearing requires great effort from God's children; they must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
- they have been saved with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ; His work has redeemed them from the eternal lake of fire.
- they must labour to save themselves from ignorance, ungodliness, fruitlessness, etc., relating to their spiritual WELLBEING.

Divine activities ALONE secured the eternal salvation for God's elect; God holds His children (the elect to whom eternal salvation has been applied)  responsible for using the means He has provided for their *temporal salvation*  - their spiritual well-being and usefulness while He lends them breath in their brief life on earth.

Ability and Responsibility

A man's responsibility is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.

I was asked:
Q1. Does a man's inability void his lawful duty?

A man's inability to perform a certain duty does not void his lawful duty. A man, though dead in trespasses and sins, is not exempted from his lawful duty and obligation toward God, his Creator. When God made man, God made him very good... he had the full ability and power of moral choice and free will to fulfil his lawful duty owed to God his Creator - to render obedience to God.

A man's inability to discharge his lawful duty towards his Creator is self-inflicted by his free will rebellion against his Creator.

All men, being sinners, are under a just obligation to repent towards God their Creator. NO single sinner has any right to remain in his sin. Every single sinner is under divine obligation to repent and turn from his sin.

A man's LAWFUL duties are defined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party!

All of God's creatures are bound by the terms of the covenant of creation.

All of God's redeemed are bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption!

Q2. What determines a man's duty to believe in Christ?

A man's duties are defined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party! His duty is not determined by his own inability or ability.

Only those embraced in the covenant of redemption are required by the terms of that covenant to believe Christ as their Redeemer.

All the children of God (elects who have been effectually called to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus) are duty-bound to repent and believe in the gospel of their salvation. They are God's redeemed, bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption. God's redeemed are duty-bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption to repent and believe in their Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ... because Christ is their Redeemer... it is their covenant duty to believe the truth of their salvation by Christ.

I do believe all God's children ALONE are under divine obligation to repent and believe in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is their Lord and Saviour. Upon the basis of His life and death, they have been justified, regenerated and adopted. They are children first by God's free grace; then they are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation Eph 1:13.

Why would anyone imagine that others are under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ is not even the Saviour of all men? Why are others duty-bound to believe Christ as their Saviour when Christ did not give Himself as the Saviour of all men? That would amount to God putting some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat lie!

It is contrary to God's character for God to put any man under divine obligation to believe a lie - i.e. to believe that Christ is their Saviour when He had assuredly decreed that Christ is not their Saviour. 

To deliver such an one unto Satan

To deliver such an one unto Satan...

[23/07/2022 14:12]
Sir, I have a couple of questions on 1 Corinthians 5.
v2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Q1. What is meant by "he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you"?

v3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Q2. What had Apostle Paul judged already?

v5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Q3. If this refers to apostolic authority only, no longer relevant to us, then what MUST the church do?

Appreciate your response.
--------

[23/07/2022 17:12] 

Q1. What is meant by "he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."

Apostle Paul expresses his disgust and disappointment concerning the situation:
- they are puffed up about the hideous sin; they likely boast of their openness and progressiveness, e.g. “we are loving, we aren’t censorious, we respect people’s private life, blah, blah, blah.”
- they have not mourned for such grievous sin in their midst, and do the needful, "that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."
- they have not exercised the authority, i.e. power to act; Christ has vested in the church the authority to deal with such matters, to remove an unrepentant member from the church body; they did not excommunicate such an unrepentant sinner. Excommunication is the responsibility and prerogative of the church, not any one individual, not even apostle Paul. So, even the Apostle Paul needed to instruct the church to do the excommunication.

Q2. What had Apostle Paul judged already?

“For I verily… have judged already… concerning him that hath so done this deed”
– Apostle Paul, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, has already exercised his apostolic authority on the matter; he has executed his judgment upon the man; this is a sharp slap in the face of the church for their inaction against, and tolerance of the hideous deed.

What is the judgment Apostle Paul has executed? What’s the basis of Paul apostolic authority? It is, “in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” – verse 5.

1Co 5:4 “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Verse 4 has two distinct parts:
- “For I verily… have judged already… concerning him that hath so done this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
- “when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
- “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” is related to what the Apostle Paul has already done;
- “in the power of our Lord Jesus Christ” is related to what the church MUST do: administer excommunication, when they are gathered together.

Apostle Paul exercised his apostolic authority on the matter, and instructed the church to perform her duty: "he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you." No further need for prayers and seeking God’s will

Q3. If this refers to apostolic authority only, no longer relevant to us then what MUST the church do?

“No longer relevant” implies it was relevant before! It never was in the church’s power to execute such a judgment, i.e. “to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh…”

It’s the standing duty of the church to execute the power of our Lord Jesus Christ vested in the church to remove such a one from the fellowship and communion of the church, excommunicate. “… but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” Mt 18:17b

The privileges of Apostolic authority belong to the Apostles alone; the privileges of church power, vested by Christ alone in each local church, belong to the church alone; each church is held responsible by her Lord Jesus Christ to administer that vested power according to the mind of Christ. ( We have touched on this somewhat in our study on 1689.26 on “Concerning the Church.”

Thank you for these excellent questions.

Keep asking; it will help all of us to learn and know the Scriptures better.