Salvation - past, present, and future

 

Salvation - past, present, and future

Let's reason a little!

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

1. The PAST is what God HAS ALREADY DONE in Christ to have you saved with eternal salvation...
- He purposed your eternal redemption...
- Christ accomplished your eternal redemption...
- The Holy Spirit applied the eternal redemption to you personally...

All these activities are completely by free grace alone, plus nothing, and completed perfectly. As a result, you ARE SAVED... as saved as can be while here on earth, and you are completely and perfectly fit for eternal glory.

These divine activities are WITHOUT and APART from the gospel ministry.

There is gospel, good news, ONLY BECAUSE these divine acts HAVE TAKEN PLACE! If these divine activities securing eternal salvation had not taken place, there would have been NO GOSPEL. There is gospel because of what God HAS DONE to save His people in Christ Jesus and applied by the Holy Spirit.

2. The PRESENT is what you, God's children, must do to work out your OWN salvation through your obedience to the Father's will. God works in His children to will and do, but they must will and do the good pleasure of the Father. 

This salvation that God's children must work out for themselves is entirely different from the eternal salvation already accomplished and applied to them personally. This salvation is ongoing, involving their temporal well-being as God's children. This is temporal salvation through the gospel ministry, ministered by faithful men.

3. The FUTURE is what God WILL DO to consummate your eternal redemption at Christ's return. You await glorification. And this will be completely by free grace too - WITHOUT any aid or cooperation from men!

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Sing F Lau
The issue of earning God's favour does not arise. It is temporal salvation CONDITIONED upon obedience just as you affirmed - "... IF we only love Him with all our heart and all our soul and all our strength and all our mind... IF we believe and lay hold on the promises that God has made."

Sing
And IF you don't obey... then what?
[Someone has deleted all his/her comments]

Sing
If temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon your works of obedience, then it is no more grace in the sense that eternal salvation is of grace.

Anything that requires man's activity is no more grace alone.

If you want to have multiple layers, it is fine... a layer of oil, and a layer of water - one salvation by grace alone, and one salvation conditioned on the obedience of God's children.

Sing F Lau
I don't need to separate them... they already are!
Grace alone is grace alone... requiring no part of man.

John Flores
"Grace alone is grace alone... requiring no part of man.
Anything that requires man's activity is no more grace alone." Well said Pastor Lau. (Romans 11:6)

Sing F Lau
Let me just get one thing clear... and let's stick to the issue at hand.

Is there a timely salvation that is CONDITIONED upon the obedience of God's children? Yes, or no.

There is no need to bring in other issues. If you can keep to this one issue, comment.

Johnny Davis
@Elder Ellis. Regarding the salvation, your comment affirms the signs on Sing's sign in all directions. My question is not to provide a license to intentionally commit sin or wrongdoing, but are there ANY conditions attached to man's life on earth (such as correct understanding of God's Word, church attendance) that have consequences on the "future" aspect of God's continued forgiveness? Guess my question is, do the signs represent God's time (spiritual), or man's time (physical). Thanks. We've not spoken for a while. I miss your insights from our Father.

Sing F Lau
Penny Karn @ "I believe so Sing!"

You believe what?????? That there is a timely salvation by God's grace that can be obtained WITHOUT human obedience?

In your effort to magnify grace, you have actually DENIGRATED and CHEAPENED grace... i.e. insisting both eternal salvation and temporal salvation are equally by the same grace.

If both are equally by God's grace, then all of God's elect are equally saved BOTH in the eternal and temporal sense, without any human activities. But that's denying the HARD facts of Scriptures.

That's not elevating grace... that destroying grace... making the grace of God incapable of accomplishing its goal.

Scriptures is its own witness:

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You just won't keep them apart! You cheapen grace by mixing it with works!

Never mind, go learn from your husband!

Johnny Davis
@Penny. Let me first give my current belief on the subject of God's grace CONDITIONED on man. IF (another "condition"), the Word is available to an individual man, THEN (satisfaction of "condition") the responsibility falls on that individual, by God from His placing that individual in time and place, to know of God (more specifically, come to believe the gospel of Jesus, as Messiah from the sin world). That responsibility lies both with the unbelieving or untaught individual, and Chrstians, able by our example in life and love for man, to teach. So, disregarding whether that is 100% true, and the unbelieving American, becomes a believer by having heard the Word, and BELIEVES and receives the Holy Spirit, confesses, repents, and is even submersed in water in baptism, THEN, are there CONDITIONS as Sing speaks of, regarding BOTH, the life with God in the body, and the life with God eternally in the spirit. I'm not wishing to extend the nature of God, to those never having the ability by time and place to "hear." For the moment, only we, having been given by God, the Word. And, not as a license to live in the flesh, afterwards (please, don't go there) - I'm interested in knowing the truth of God's Word, from our time and place, in God's creation on Earth.

Sing F Lau
Penny Karn @ "But I think it is worth adding that temporal salvation is still completely by grace..."
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That's a completely erroneous statement - no matter how one qualifies and hedges it!!!

"Completely by grace" necessarily RULES out completely any human activities.

That statement insists that there is temporal salvation that is COMPLETELY without any human activities. And that's just sheer nonsense.

And she still goes blah blah blah!!!

I'm puzzled!!

Johnny Davis
@Sing. Gotta stab atch-'ya. We're not in formal worship service. You have a wonderful wife, from the photos. And, I'd bet she is as intelligent and smart, as God made her beautiful. You might want to "go learn from your wife!" some manners. Ladies are better at that, than we testosterone driven guys, most of the time.

Johnny Davis ·
@Sing. It was an intentional, personal stab at YOU, not for your anything about the subject, but purely to illustrate how the "stabs" you make at others, MAY come across to them as hateful. In that regard, it was a "loving" stab, intended to be "light-natured." I'll not make another, because more and more, just leads to the likelihood of mean spirit, sinful. It is the type of thing to say to me, personally, and why I do not ask you questions, anymore, though the answers have been helpful, even when given in an inappropriate spirit. I'll continue to gleen from your status, what God intended to reveal to your readers, but, communication, from me, will no longer to initiated to you, difrectly. Hope you understand, my heart's intent, prayerfully. Love you.

Sing F Lau
Johnny Davis, I know you are a tender kindhearted man - I don't think you are ever capable of being mean and hateful.

May be I don't have the finesse people expected of me... that's an art I have not cultivated. Easier to speak plain and blunt.

Johnny Davis
@Sing. You have the heart of God, without doubt.

Cheri Thomas
Stick to your guns, Bro Sing. I appreciate your 'strong meat' and plain words.

Sing F Lau
Penny, whoever your teachers may be, it is most certainly NOT the Holy Spirit who taught you to believe that Eph 2:1-8 is an example of timely salvation!

Have you even understood the concept of timely salvation?????

Go, please get your husband to teach you a thing or two.

Sola fide is putting the cart before the horse

John 3:3 KJT
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 2:1 KJT
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

It's common sense that life precedes the actions of that life; faith is an activity of spiritual life. Except a man be born again (regenerated) with spiritual life, he is still dead in trespasses and sins, utterly incapable of exercising faith.

EVEN SO...
To say that your faith is the cause of your justification by God is to put the cart before the horse.

It's equally common sense to say that a man's justification freely by God precedes his faith in Jesus Christ. Why? You ask.

It's common sense.
An unjustified man is a man still in his native state of condemnation and death; a man in his native state can't possibly exercise faith in order to be justified by God. Sola fide is fiction.

Have you not read these words:
Romans 3:24 KJT — Being justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:18 KJT — Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Adam's sin brought the condemnation of death upon all represented by him; EVEN SO, Christ's righteousness secured the justification of life to all represented by Him. Amen.

At the justification freely by God's grace, the righteousness of Christ is freely APPLIED to an elect personally (it's already IMPUTED to all the elect during the double imputation at the cross) in his native state of condemnation and death UNTO the justification of life.

The Father's free and gracious act of applying Christ's righteousness to the redeemed gives the divine warrant to the Spirit of God to regenerate such; that is why justification is termed as justification of life. (Rom 5:18)

Your faith evidences your justified state, freely by God's grace; even so, your breath evidences the prior impartation of life; your breath is not the cause of getting you your life.

May the gracious Lord grant you to understand this blessed good news.

p/s - just in case, if any is misguided in this too:

- Faith is NOT the gift of God; eternal salvation is the gift of God, Eph 2:8. Eternal salvation is through the faith of Christ, i.e. Christ's faithfulness in discharging the redemptive work to save His people.

- Faith is ONE of the many saving graces worked in a child of God (an elect that has been justified, regenerated, adopted and bestowed with the Spirit of adoption to indwell him) by the Holy Spirit, Gal 5:22.

- A gift comes from without; it's a saving grace that is worked from within by the indwelling Spirit of God.

May our gracious Lord grant you understanding.
Amen.

 

 

Someone Bitching about the RBs

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02f6FJs12QM6GQZP1ACcLkEhxtvaZ7sq67rWXdT9Zrev2KMS28NXbs7vYHeU5hGtfml3 June 2025 

An exchange with someone bitching about the Reformed Baptists... 
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Leongurl
I have had enough of the RBs, especially Kenny. Pure idiosyncrasy. He never uses his brain.   

sing
I do still love them despite all the doctrinal differences. (They are lovely people I associated with for nearly 20 years before I was denounced as a heretic.)

Leongurl
Aiyah, you only see them once a year, and they don't force their theology on to you. Else you will VOMIT Blood also.

Just asking, since you said that you can still love them. If I get baptised in xyRBC and become a member there, would you continue to teach me?

Only a spineless and brainless person can be forced into any belief!

sing
I will ask them questions politely... to make them think and see their errors.  I have not given up on anyone who would listen and can be reasoned with. 🙂

Leongurl
You haven't replied to this Q: "Would you still continue to teach me?

U should have PITY on me, coz I get fed all the WRONG Theology by the people here. So if you don't want to teach me anymore, then I will become like them, very ignorant. In fact, all of the church leaders here are all very ignoramus.

(Since you are aware that you are being fed the wrong theology, this presupposes that you already know the right theology, does it not?)️

sing
The answer to your question has two perspectives. (I have from the beginning exhorted you to be churched; you have remained churchless for too long.)

Getting baptised and becoming a member of the church BRINGS YOU under the rule and authority of elders of the church.

You must understand this aspect of the biblical churchmanship.

When you are a member of a church, you have put yourself under the jurisdiction/spiritual oversight of that church. I must respect this biblical truth.

My continuing to take liberty to teach you may be seen as meddling with the members of another church; this is especially so because there is a theological controversy between xy-RBC and a "heretic" in their eyes.

So, you need to find out when you are interviewed for baptism and membership whether you are free to continue asking me questions!!!🤣🤣

I don't turn away anyone who comes to me with questions, not even the smart alecks.

Ask them questions politely... make them think and see their errors.  DON'T give up on anyone.

Leongurl
Aiyah. I just don't tell xyRBC that I continue to learn from you lah. I can pretend that I am not learning from u.️

sing
You can pretend, BUT Christ, the Head of His church sees all things that I do. I am subjected to His headship.

Leongurl
Well, u r just helping me to discover the TRUTH only, u r not  teaching me to rebel against xyRBC️

sing
Hebrews 13:17 KJT
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you."

This is a command. If you can, with clear conscience, submit to the rule of the elders of the church, then join the church. I would be more than happy that you are churched!

Leongurl
xyRBC can church me pastorally, I don't have any problems with that. But Theologically, I don't want to subscribe to their Theology 😅. Later I have to subscribe to Andrew Fuller’s rubbish and AW Tozer's teaching n there goes part of my Temporal Salvation already. When one's doctrines are wrong, one's good works will also be incorrect. And good works determine our Temporal Salvation

sing
You are too reactionary minded. When you are a member, you have the biblical standing to raise your questions and the church has the duty to deal with them. You don't have to subscribe to errors but you have the right to insist on hearing the truth from the inspired Scriptures.

2 Timothy 4:2 KJV — Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Not everyone in xyRBC is brain-dead like you think. Good questions will inevitably make some start THINKING... and ASKING Q's. That's when conversion starts taking place.

Leongurl
The church has a duty to shut up dissenters who don't subscribe to their teaching. This was what happened to me in zRBC. Once bitten, twice shy. I won't try it in xyRBC

U should read what I told Smarty there.

sing
The most basic thing is: you have to make up your own mind whether you want to be a member of a church.

Otherwise, all is just futile talks.

What truth did you attempt to show them?

What did you do?

How did you do it?

Leongurl
I also want to advance in learning God's words. I have tons of things to learn. Let sleeping dogs lie.

sing
You won't; you will keep on whining and bitching about them being brainless and acting like idiots. 🤣🤣

What truth have you attempted to teach them?

What did you do?

How did you do it? 

Incarnation - the eternal Word was made flesh

Lk 1:35 "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Jn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God....
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Some questions:

In what sense is Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father?

Is "the Word was made flesh" a description of the incarnation?

In "the Word was made flesh", what happened?

Who/what > INCARNATION > Who/what?

What is the product of incarnation?

Did incarnation bring about that which did not exist before it?

What is the product of the incarnation called?

Who was incarnated - the eternally divine Word, or the divine/human Son of God?

Was it eternally Divine Word > incarnated > divine/human Son of God?

Was it divine/human Son of God > incarnated > divine/human Son of God?

Was the eternal Word exactly the same as Jesus the divine/human Son of God?

Can someone give me some straight answers, please!

And Scriptures rightly divided, please!
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Cheri Thomas

♥ the tigers!!

Charles Page
I have dealt with this issue in discussions with United Pentecostals (anti-trinitarian), Jehovah Witness (anti-trinitarian) and seemingingly the SBC in submission of wives to husbands!
A lot of speculation

Charles Page
Q. In what sense is Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father?
A. He, along with the Holy Spirit, proceeds eternally from the Father in a redeeming function not duplicated by the other.

Q. Is 'the Word was made flesh" a description of the incarnation?
A.Conceived in the virgin Mary's womb. Divine "Logos" becomes flesh.

Q. In "the Word was made flesh", what happened?
A. Eternal word of God became human and took on the qualities of man accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

Q. Who/what > INCARNATION > Who/what?
A. "Alpha and omega" became homosapien w/o ending.

Q. What is the product of incarnation?
A. Death conquerer rather than conquered by death

Q. Did incarnation bring about that did not exist before it?
A. Yes, second Adam

Q. What is the product of the incarnation called?
A. 2nd Adam

Q. Who was incarnated - the eternally divine Word, or the divine/human Son of God?
A. The eternally divine Word

Q. Was it eternally Divine Word > incarnated > divine/human Son of God?
A. Yes

Q. Was it divine/human Son of God > incarnated > divine/human Son of God?
A. No.

Q. Was the eternal Word exactly the same as Jesus the divine/human Son of God?
A. No

Q. Can someone give me some straight answers please!.
A. Yes

14y

Charles Page
And Scriptures rightly divided, please!
Was that a question or a command?

It takes a highly trained Biblical scientist to "rightly divide" the scriptures, which I ain't, and there seems to be no human standard that determines when the scriptures are rightly divided.

Scientifically, rightly divided is a relative term and not ultimate.

Like a deck of cards, there is an order, but a joker card that has no particular place but changes the whole game.

Now some person knows all the different games but not me.

Sing F Lau
Q. In what sense is Jesus the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father?
A (c) He, along with the Holy Spirit, proceeds eternally from the Father in a redeeming function not duplicated by the other.
A (s) Jesus the man is the only begotten of the Father because he is the ONLY man/son begotten of God. The manner Jesus was begotten is absolutely unique. God begot one such man alone! God DID NOT beget another like Jesus.

Jesus is the only begotten because He alone is the eternal Word made flesh... the God/man.

Now, please explain those words, "proceeds eternally from the Father". Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Q. is 'the Word was made flesh" a description of the incarnation?
A (c) Conceived in the virgin Mary's womb. Divine "Logos" becomes flesh.

A (s) Yes, the 'Word was made flesh' is a description of the incarnation of the eternal Word.

Who/what is conceived in the virgin's womb? The Son of God?

Before that conception, did what was conceived exist at all? That is, before conception in the virgin's womb, did the Son of God exist?

I didn't ask, "...., did the eternal Word exist?

Sing F Lau
Q. In "the Word was made flesh", what happened?
A (c) Eternal word of God became human and took on the qualities of men accomplished by the Holy Spirit.… See more

Sing F Lau
Q. Who/what > INCARNATION > Who/what?
A. "alpha and omega" became homosapien w/o ending.

A (s) Eternal Word the second Person of the Godhead > the eternal was made flesh > the God/man Jesus the only begotten Son of God.

Sing F Lau
Q. What is the product of incarnation?
A (c) Death conquerer rather than conquered by death

A (s) Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, is the product of incarnation. Before incarnation, the product of incarnation DID NOT exist. The eternal divine Word existed.

Sing F Lau
Q. Who was incarnated - the eternally divine Word, or the divine/human Son of God?
A (c) Eternally divine Word

A (s) Yes, eternally divine Word. So, before incarnation, there is no Jesus, the Son of God.

So many insist that the Son of God was incarnated, and we get the Son of God... THAT IS, the Son of God was made flesh and as a result was get the Son of God!

If the Son of God existed before incarnation, then glorious and momentous event incarnation is redundant!

God wastes NO MOVES... men so often do!

Sing F LauCharles, thank you for giving me some answers. I appreciated that!

It is better for thee to enter into life maimed... than go into hell

Hell is temporal, between physical death and the resurrection.
Hell shall be emptied at the resurrection. Rev 20:13-14

Mark 9:43 KJT
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

[These words were addressed to the DISCIPLES of Jesus Christ, those whom God has freely bestowed eternal salvation. Christ solemnly warned that the redeemed can end up in hell; hell can be avoided with radical measures in dealing with personal sins.]

Is this passage speaking of eternal salvation? That a man's radical effort at battling against personal sins enables him to escape the eternal lake of fire and to enter eternal life?

[Please note: hell spoken of and the lake of fire are distinct!] 

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Sing F Lau
Why do so many Christians, when they read this passage and other similar passages, when they read and hear the SOUND of 'hell' and 'unquenchable fire', inevitably conclude that the passage is dealing with the lake of fire, the eternal condemnation and misery, even though the context of the passage is clearly contrary to such an idea?

To whom is the exhortation addressed? To those still dead in trespasses and sins, or to God's children, those already quickened with eternal life? If the former, then they are necessarily saying that Christ is exhorting those still dead in trespasses and sins to perform such radical actions in order to escape eternal hell, and to enter eternal life.

Would Christ be exhorting such to perform such radical activities to deal with their sins in order to save themselves from eternal hell? Whatever happened to Christ's declaration that He came to save His people from their sins? And sincere folks make Christ teach men to save themselves in this passage!

It is obvious that this urgent exhortation is addressed at God's children, those already quickened with eternal life, bestowed with eternal salvation. Such are able to respond to such exhortation. Such alone can work out their OWN salvation with fear and trembling... to ensure their WELL-BEING as God's children in this life. Their BEING as God's children is wholly and solely and completely by the sovereign and free grace alone.

Sins still have very injurious and harmful temporal consequences to God's children, causing much pain and miseries in this life, and sins require radical effort to battle them in their lives. That's what Christ speaks of.

Sins can bring 'hell' and 'unquenchable fire' to God's children here and now in this life. A defiled conscience is not unlike that of 'unquenchable fire', an accused and condemned conscience because of sins unrepented of is unlike hell.

For the record, I do believe in the literal hell for the goats, every one of them, and a simple passage will suffice. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

==========================

Sing F Lau
If you take 'unquenchable fire' to refer to the ETERNAL lake of fire, then you are correct. None in Christ will end up in the eternal lake of fire.

For Mt 3:12, you need first to show that the term refers to eternal judgment in its context, and not the horrendous and severest judgment in 70AD upon the Jews... which Christ described as "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Mt 3:7 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?...

12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The wrath to come upon them and the unquenchable fire are directly related... 70AD judgment.

Michael G. Morrow
Disagree my friend...I think the whole reference is to illustrate that our problem is not our hand or foot but our hearts! He WAS dealing with a bunch of legalists who thought that sin was outward...He is saying if you cut off your offending hand...and foot, the problem is still there. They needed a change of heart. "If" your hand offends????Who among us does not have a non-offending hand? He is not saying we should all go to heaven as dis-membered stumps. He is saying that radical surgery is required for men not to go to unquenchable fire. BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been quenched.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ " He is saying that radical surgery is required for men not to go to unquenchable fire. BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been quenched."

==========

And that radical surgery which is required needs to be performed by men who are still dead in their sin! "... CUT THEM OFF... PLUCK IT OUT...

"Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, CUT THEM OFF, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, PLUCK IT OUT, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Ah, then your salvation by God's free grace is just a shibboleth - sinners dead in their trespasses and sins are able, and required to do that radical surgery to save himself from the unquenchable fire of eternal hell.

You are not alone, but among a great crowd in Christendom.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "BTW...the fires of 70 AD have long since been quenched."

=========

Long since been quenched - this is indeed true.

But before it was quenched, it had completely performed its job of consuming the object of judgment! So, as far as the object of judgment was concerned, the fire was UNQUENCHABLE; it consumed them COMPLETELY.

Catch the SENSE... not just the SOUND of the words.

Michael G. Morrow
Hi Richard...Sing...fire insurance wasn't mentioned in my post. I do believe in regeneration...do you? I believe only the regenerate are saved and have the right, bought by Jesus Christ, to gaze upon the glory of our God. I do believe there is a place of eternal destruction for those who are lost...but...God is in charge of who is saved and who is not. I am no sales man.

[Richard has deleted all his comments]

Michael G. Morrow
Richard... as I read your post...I wondered...why was the "left behind series" brought up? I don't push that stuff. Secondly...are you guys preaching that everyone who is going to be saved in eternity is born again that is, already saved when he comes into this world?

If that is what you believe, I don't need to take a seat...I need to leave the premises.

Michael G. Morrow
I rest in the finished work of Christ alone as well. In your scheme of things, it just does not matter if the Gospel is offered to all. What will be, will be...so why do you ridicule those who fervently preach the cross to all? According to you, their efforts are worthless...so they will not change anything...so...what is it to you, if they do or don't...Why do you fight something so hard that you don' think matters?

Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, I am a man who ever speak ONLY for himself. I am never good at speaking for others... and no one authorised me to speak on their behalf anyway!

An elect is conceived and born in sin just like anyone else.

At some point in his earthly life, while still dead in trespasses and sins, God immediately and freely regenerated him with eternal life, without any instrumentality at all.

The gospel ministry is very important, but only for the reason it was ordained... to bring to light life and immortality that is already present in those who God has regenerated.

The gospel is good news of what God has done... He has purposed eternal redemption, and Christ His only begotten Son has accomplished it for all the elect, and His Spirit has applied it to each elect personally at His appointed and approved time... such who hear the gospel will rejoice in the gospel and perceive it as a message that speaks of the power of God unto their eternal salvation.

The gospel ministry is absolutely importance, for it is the means God has ordained for the instruction and enlightening of God's children concerning the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace that is already in their possession.

Sing F Lau
There is ABSOLUTELY no offer in the gospel ministry. No eternal salvation is offered.

To those still dead in trespasses and sins, the offer of salvation is a cruel mocking. It is like offering a roast turkey to a dead man.

To those already regenerated, the offer comes too late... eternal salvation has already been bestowed to him. What he needs is the instruction of the gospel truth concerning his eternal salvation by the free grace of God in Jesus Christ applied by the Holy Spirit...

The good news of that salvation by God's power and grace is announced. Those in whom that salvation has already been applied with receive that news with gladness.

The gospel ministry is very important... it determines whether a child of God reminds in his ignorant of the truth concerning his glorious redemption by God's free grace, and be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine and lies, or he is enlightened by the gospel truth, rejoices in the hope of glory...

So your words are very naughty and serious misrepresentation.

"What will be, will be...so why do you ridicule those who fervently preach the cross to all? According to you, their efforts are worthless...so they will not change anything...so...what is it to you, if they do or don't...Why do you fight something so hard that you don' think matters?"

What I am opposing is the delusion that the gospel ministry is a necessary means for the regeneration of God's elect. I am saying that a mid-wife who claim she has a role in the conception of the life she helped delivered is a silly and self-conceited mid-wife. She played no role whatsoever in the conception of the life she help delivered!

I hope you get the point. The gospel ministry is very important for the purpose it was ordained... not the purpose imagined by some deluded and self-conceited preachers! I am just being plain. No rudeness or offense intended at all.

Michael G. Morrow
I get the point, Sing, and no offence is taken. I am going to ask you a question...I have asked it before and received no answer...but here it is again. Do you pray? Do you make petitions to God? What do you pray for? Why?

Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow inquired: "Do you pray? Do you make petitions to God? What do you pray for? Why?"

Yes, I do pray.

Yes, I do make petition to God.

I make petitions to God for all sort of things.

I make petitions to God for all sort of reasons... for His own glory, for the cause of the Christ and His gospel, for the conversion of God's children (regenerated elect), His blessing upon the feeble ministry of his servants, for the good of the church, etc. I even made petitions for my brother Morrow... on some occasions.

But I think these may be all too general. So, please submit your precise and specific question.

I do pray for the conversion of God's children... all the time. The gospel ministry is for the conversion of God's children, to make disciples of them, to open their minds and hearts to understand the gospel truth and be converted to the truth.

I don't pray for the regeneration of sinners. That's entirely God's own prerogative. God will, at His own appointed and approved time, effectually call each elect to grace and eternal salvation. IF the sinner is an elect, he shall most certainly be regenerated at God's appointed time. IF the sinner is not among the elect, no amount of prayer will ever change anything.

The petitions to regenerate dead sinners are, at best, trespassing and border on presumption... meddling in things that are entirely outside our calling!

I wrote some thoughts here: "Divine Sovereignty, Human Responsibility and Prayers" https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/03/divine-sovereignty-human-responsibility.html