Who is a God like unto Thee - Micah 7:18

 

April 8, 2010

Micah 7 KJT
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea...
20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old." 

With these, the church here completed the book of Micah for the Wed evening bible study.

Thus, the book of Micah ends with these glorious words... glorious words. If nothing is remembered, just let these words linger in your mind and take root in your heart.

These are words that distinguish the one true living God from all others - the God of creation, providence and redemption.

Micah 7:15 speaks of the promise that God will show unto the flock of His heritage (v14) MARVELOUS THINGS... - "will I shew unto him marvellous things."

What are those marvellous things?

They most certainly include these things
- God PARDONS iniquity.
- God PASSES by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage.
- God RETAINS NOT His anger forever.
- God DELIGHTS in mercy.
- God WILL TURN AGAIN, after turning away from us because of our sins.
- God WILL HAVE COMPASSION upon us, after showing us His just indignation.
- God WILL CAST ALL our sins into the depths of the seas, i.e. NEVER to be seen or remembered any more!

These are THE TRUTH of THE MERCY of God... and God who had sworn these with an oath, will most assuredly PERFORM them. The promises, though ancient, shall surely be fulfilled.

These marvellous things have been fulfilled gloriously, exceeding abundantly above all that is expected or imagined. And there are more yet to come!

Who is a God like unto our God, the Father of Jesus Christ?

Eternal Salvation and Temporal Salvation

"Saved from what?",
 "Saved unto what?" and
"Saved by meeting what conditions?"

 

April 8, 2022
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02odThcuengBaa6PcrZKVN1J1WsySyVcozpDPFnpPG4RA1RiWJsqLsiUoB9CWyxQRkl

Eternal salvation is freely applied to each elect personally when they are still in their native state of sin and death:

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Temporal salvation is conditionally offered to those whom God has freely saved with eternal salvation:

Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved....
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

1Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Eternal salvation is monergistic: freely and sovereignly purposed by God, accomplished by Jesus Christ, and applied by the Spirit without any cooperation from the elect, who are by nature dead in trespasses and sins.

Once freely and sovereignly bestowed with eternal salvation, God holds His children responsible to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling through their obedience to their Father's will.

Blessed are you if you have understood these things; many theologians don't have a clue!

Fred
“But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.”

Matthew 13:16-17 KJV

Lloyd
Some temporal salvations are conditionally offered to the children of God. Some are not. If you are unconscious, floating in the lake and I reach down and save you from drowning, that is a temporal salvation not conditionally offered to the children of God.

Sing
Lloyd "... unconscious, floating in the lake..." sounds like a dead decomposing man to me. Thank you for saving me anyway.

Lloyd
Unconscious, not dead.

Low WY
Lloyd,  if he is only unconscious, and capable of floating he can surely save himself when he regains consciousness.. I don't see someone capable of floating being seen as drowning at the same time.. sounds oxymoron to me

Dan
Brother Lloyd raises a good point, one that is not often discussed on the topic of temporal salvation, namely the truth that some, but not all, TEMPORAL salvations are likewise monergistic acts of God. I would not describe them as "temporally offered" unless one was using "offer" in the sense of "declared for one's information" rather than "presented for one's rejection or denial thereof" - but this is admittedly a bit of a quibble.

Leaving that observation aside to state the matter more clearly: We shall all be temporally saved from another worldwide flood. That doesn't deliver anyone to eternal glory, but it does deliver us from that particular, temporal calamity. This deliverance is the result of an unconditional promise of God, that requires absolutely nothing of man whatsoever. Nevertheless, many temporal salvations in the scriptures are contingent upon the willing and active obedience of a child of God, and this aspect of temporal salvation is often the most emphasized as it provides the greatest contrast with monergistic eternal salvation and thus has the greatest explanatory benefit.

Donna
Lloyd, well, sir, if u are unconscious, you are not able to do anything to help yourself, either.

Lloyd
Low WY: Ah, yes, you raise a good point. By my not being precise and detailed with my example, it led to confusion and a misunderstanding on your part. Much like using a general term like temporal salvation, which can mean many things. If on the other hand, I had said that 2 boats had an accident. The man in one boat hit his head and was knocked unconscious before he fell face down in the water. The man in the second boat, thinking quickly, reached down and pulled the unconscious man out of the water before he could sink, saving his life. If he had not done so, the unconscious man, who was briefly floating face down, would have soon gone under and drowned. When describing temporal salvation, you must be precise in your meaning. There are an almost infinite number of temporal salvation types.

Sing
Brother Dan, I read your helpful exchanges with Brother Lloyd on the appropriateness of terminology in describing non-eternal salvation.

Greg
Lloyd, brother, in the case you mention, a condition was met, not on the part of the unconscious but on the part of the conscious, having a heart for his helpless fellow man, which isn’t always the case.

Lloyd
Greg, usually when we talk about salvation, conditional and unconditional is from the perspective of the saved (recipient of the salvation). From the perspective of the one doing the saving, it is always conditional. Even with God and eternal salvation. Unconditional for us, conditional for God. In other words, eternal salvation is conditional on God choosing us, Jesus dying for us, the Holy Spirit regenerating us or giving us that spiritual/eternal life. There are no conditions on us, but there are on God. God put those conditions on himself. After you are born again by the

Spirit, you are able to believe that Jesus is God’s son and that He is the way, the truth, and the life. When you believe, you are saving yourself from a life of ignorance of the truth, you are saving yourself from a life that ultimately does not satisfy, you are saving yourself from a life where comfort, peace, and joy are fleeting not lasting, and you are saving yourself from many other things that come from a life without knowing who Jesus really is. I would rather give God’s little children that assurance rather than telling them: if you believe in Jesus you can experience conditional time salvation. Oh joy.

Greg
Lloyd, amen brother, I was just poking at you, but I’m glad I did, I enjoyed the response.

I do think Bro. Sing was talking about walking in Jesus teachings, being obedient and receiving promises made to those of God's children who walk in meekness before the Lord.

Maybe conditional time salvation is confusing to some, but it seems simple to me. “Save yourselves from this untoward generation." It is something given to God's children to do, good works that God has foreordained that we should walk in them, to his honour and glory and to our benefit even in suffering for his name's sake.

Rayburn
Concur, the truth is the truth

Dan
Very clearly stated. It is certainly true that many if not most theologians seem to stumble over the distinction between monergistic eternal salvation by Christ's willing obedience and synergistic temporal salvation by our willing obedience to His precepts.

Sing
Dan - "synergistic temporal salvation by our willing obedience to His precepts"
- The salvation under consideration involves the spiritual well-being of God's children.
- The salvation under consideration requires the willing obedience of God's children.

- this helps to reduce confusion.

I use the distinction of our BEING and WELL-BEING as God's children to illustrate the distinction between eternal and temporal salvations.

Dan
Sing - So you use them in this way....
BEING (eternal salvation) - in reference to our state of eternal grace conferred upon us by God alone.
WELL-BEING (temporal salvation) - in reference to our subsequent state of obedience in discipleship.

Is that the distinction you make?

Sing
Yes. Our being as God's children is wholly monergistic; our well-being as His children is synergistic.

Dan
Sing- makes sense to me. Might have to steal that from you, brother Sing.

Kay
I have never understood that subject.

Dan
Kay - I suspect that's because many ministers make it more complicated than it is.
1. Salvation to heaven is done by God alone.
2. Salvation from this untoward generation is done by God's promised enablement (the indwelling Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 10:13) and our willing and active obedience to the precepts of God (Isaiah 1:19).

We experience this in our everyday lives. We know God has saved us by his grace (Romans 8:16). We likewise know that when we sin, we do so in rebellion to what God has taught us and we deserve the temporal consequences that accompany our disobedience and God's chastisement thereof (Hebrews 12).

I understand your struggle with the subject and believe it is pretty common among the Lord's sheep. But striving for a better understanding of the matter is a worthy and profitable pursuit. I honour the admission that you have never understood the subject. In my own life, similar admissions have often been a requirement to gaining a better understanding later on.

Donna
Kay - Each time when u read the word save, or saved in the BIBLE, do u apply it to eternal salvation?

Kay
Donna - if it meant eternal.

Donna
Kay - not every time you read saved or saved it does not mean to heaven.

Kay
I get the eternal salvation. The temporal, is that like our obedience saves us from consequences?

Sing
Kay - Yes, our obedience saves us from consequences in this life, i.e., temporal consequences. Christ has saved us from the lake of fire, i.e. eternal salvation.

Lloyd
I appreciate this discussion, brothers and sisters. Iron sharpens iron. God gives different gifts to His children to use in service and ministry in His kingdom. Let us all seek His wisdom in knowing and using ours to His glory. Different children learn and memorize in different ways. Let us all recognize that and seek the best way to share God’s truth.

Marty
I embrace the teaching of conditional "temporal salvation" or "time salvation". But it should be understood that God is the same in eternity and in time. Here is the viewpoint that helps me to understand God's unchanging nature in this:

God is a perfect parent. His love for his children, and the relationship he puts in place by grace, are everlasting. They will never be separated from him, and any human he loves will arrive safely in glory to dwell in his presence forever.

God is a perfect parent. He chastises his own children for their disobedience, and rewards them for their obedience. His fellowship with any of his children is conditioned on their thoughts, words, and deeds.

Therefore, "temporal" or "time" salvation occurs only in time, because his children will not disobey him any more when they are in heaven. The unchanging God is a perfect parent to his children.

Lloyd
Marty - I also agree with the fact that there are temporal or time salvations that are dependent on some conditions that man must fulfil. I don’t disagree with that concept from a theological perspective. But I don’t like the emphasis that is placed on the theological terminology, which can be confusing to the folks in the pews. I prefer to encourage and comfort them with specific examples such as if you believe in Jesus … or if you obey Jesus … there is a salvation … in doing so. As a pastor, I have found that using these theological terms like conditional time salvation can be confusing and/or not applicable to their daily lives. And there may be a reason that our Lord and his apostles chose to use “save” “saved” or “salvation” without qualification in the inspired word. Salvation in scripture, whether eternal or temporal in this world, is a gift from God by his grace alone OR enabled by his grace with us following his commandments. I prefer that instruction for His little children. Otherwise, why would he not have instructed us differently?

Marty
Yes, the closer we can stay to scriptural language, the better for us and for those who hear us. And although the apostles did not qualify the use of the words about salvation the same way as modern theologians, the context of their words about salvation served to qualify them well.

When a child of God encounters the word "save" or "salvation" in the Bible, it does help to ask: "saved from what?", "saved unto what" and "saved by meeting what conditions?" If the answer to these questions - especially the third one - is different from the answer in another text, then two different kinds of salvation, or aspects of salvation, are under consideration.

Sing
Amen, and amen, Brother Marty.

 

'Good Friday? What a delusion!'

At some point on late Sunday morning, it was said,
".... beside all this, to day is the third day SINCE these things were done."

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid0kdpL8BbzUsCPCZLh4KZv5hKPiZhDPFAscSSufdAsE9LELPbMZkjg6pmCxtaXhdNGl

April 7, 2012

'Good Friday? What a delusion!'
Even those two villagers knew better!

Luke 24
13 ¶ And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus... 21... beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.'

They said these words on Sunday morning, '... and besides all this, to day is the THIRD DAY since these things were done!'

Those two villagers on foot could count better than most 21st-century iPhone-toting zombies!
--------------

Sing F Lau
Matthew, draw up some table and chart to show us the 3 days and nights. Thanks!

[Matthew Ong has deleted all his comments]

Sing F Lau
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
===========

When did Jesus rise from the dead?
(i) at the end of the last day of the week and the beginning of the first evening of the week .. i.e. around Saturday 6pm?  [those who said Jesus was crucified on Wednesday afternoon] or,

(ii) at the end of the first evening of the week and the beginning of the first day of the week... i.e. around Sunday 6am? [those who said Jesus was crucified on Thursday afternoon]

Sing F Lau
This is a simple common sense table:

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is the Jewish way of reckoning a 24-hr day: 12-hr evening (night) and 12-hr morning (day).

Wed 6pm - Thu 6pm : Passover
- Christ was hurriedly buried before the beginning of the annual high sabbath

Thu 6pm- Fri 6pm : annual high sabbath

Fri 6pm - Sat 6pm : weekly sabbath

Sat 6pm - Sun 6pm: first evening and day of week.

At some point on late Sunday morning, it was said, ".... beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."

Those things (the trial, condemnation, crucifixion and burial) happened within the day of Thursday (6am-6pm)

Sing F Lau
Those who insist on the exact 72 hrs of 3 12hrs nights and 3 12hrs days MUST have this arrangement:

Their 72 hrs 3 NIGHTS and 3 DAYS sequence is like this:

Christ was buried shortly before Wed 6pm:
Tues 6pm - Wed 6am --- eating Passover meal... arrest
Wed 6am - Wed 6pm day --- kangaroo trial, crucifixion, and burial before 6pm...

(Why were they rushing to have Christ buried?)

Wed 6pm - Thu 6am night --- 1st evening/night
Thu 6am - Thu 6pm day ---- 1st morning/day
Thu 6pm - Fri 6am night ---- annual sabbath evening/night
Fri 6am - Fri 6pm day ---- annual sabbath morning/day
Fri 6pm - Fri 6am night ---- weekly sabbath evening/night
Sat 6am - Sat 6pm day. ---- weekly sabbath morning/day

That means Christ rose shortly after Sat 6pm. This is "3 nights and three days."
Therefore they believe that Christ was risen early the first evening of the week!

BUT Scriptures say this:
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week.
It doesn't say the first EVENING of the week.
Early the first evening of the week is shortly after Sat 6pm.
Early the first day of the week is shortly after Sunday 6am.

The day before the annual sabbath day was the Passover.
The day after the Passover is the annual high sabbath.
The day after the annual high sabbath is the weekly sabbath!

But the 72hrs of 3 12-hr days and 3 12-hr nights scheme has inserted an extra day between the Passover and the Annual High Sabbath - as indicated above. That's what happen when men 'out-literal' the Scriptures!

Inserting one extra day is no worse than inserting thousand of years between the 69th week and the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy!

Sing F Lau
It is possible that I misread it.
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Christ rose early the first day of the week... Mary Magdalene was early at the tomb the first day of the week... the risen Lord appeared to her. The passage doesn't give the impression that there was a 12hr interval between His rising and His appearance to Mary. If there is, I am not seeing it yet.

Even if Christ rose shortly after Sat 6pm... there is still insurmountable issue.

From the passage, there are only two choices:
- shortly after Sat 6pm
- shortly after Sun 6am.

I choose the latter for the reason I have stated above.

Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Light/day/morning... Darkness/night/evening...
So, I am consistent - according to God's own definition.

Sing F Lau
That's true. Now, you and I have to choose between shortly after Sat 6pm or shortly after Sun 6am. There's a 12hrs night difference between them. We just have to take our choices and be consistent.

There are words that provide the immediate context... "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene..."

I am just working out these things in my mind. Any disagreement helps me to think through the various matters related to the subject.

The central issue is still: Christ ROSE! He is risen!

Sing F Lau
Let assume Christ rose shortly after Sat 6pm... work backward 3 days and 3 nights. What do you have? When was he buried? Wednesday before 6pm. Look at the simple table I gave...

Tue 6pm - Wed 6am ---- Passover evening... arrest
Wed 6am - Wed 6pm ---- Passover morning... trial, crucified, buried...
Wed 6pm - Thu 6am night --- 1st evening/night
Thu 6am - Thu 6pm day ---- 1st morning/day
Thu 6pm - Fri 6am night ---- annual sabbath evening/night
Fri 6am - Fri 6pm day ---- annual sabbath morning/day
Fri 6pm - Fri 6am night ---- weekly sabbath evening/night
Sat 6am - Sat 6pm day. ---- weekly sabbath morning/day

Where is the consistency???

A Sat 6pm theory requires a Wed 6pm burial... which means PUTTING AN EXTRA DAY between Passover and the high sabbath. You probably missed this matter!

The day after the Passover is the annual high sabbath!

And the annual high sabbath is followed by the weekly sabbath.

Sing F Lau
Jim Cutler, do you see the monumental difficulty with the "shortly after Sat 6pm" timing yet?
[Jim Cutler of Greenville Church has also deleted his comments]
When did the women buy those sweet spices? Good question!

The words "HAD BOUGHT" - the past perfect tense indicates that it was prior to another past action in the sentence, which is "the sabbath was past".

They probably bought the sweet spices shortly before the beginning of the annual sabbath, before Thursday 6pm. In any case whatever the timing of this buying of sweet spices has no relevance to the issue at hand.

Sing F Lau
Matthew Ong, thanks for your suggestion.
How don't you use those passages and construct a table for us...
Show us that you are thinking!

Sing F Lau
Easter is a BIG joke. Every day, different date, meaning to say Jesus dies on different date....?

Sing F Lau
That's a good question. The answer is here:

Mr 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."

THREE DISTINCT and SEPARATE days are mentioned in this verse.

When the evening 6pm was come, the passover day is over, and the Preparation day (high sabbath) began. And this preparation day was the day before the weekly sabbath day.

So we have the sequence of THREE CONSECUTIVE DAYS – the Passover Day, the Preparation Day (the annual sabbath), and the weekly sabbath day.

These four days are in consecutive order:

Passover: Wed 6pm to Thu 6pm

Annual high sabbath : Thu 6pm to Fri 6pm

Weekly sabbath: Fri 6pm to Sat 6pm

First 24-hr day of week: Sat 6pm to Sun 6pm
[first 12-hr night of the week: Sat 6pm - Sun 6am.
[fist 12-hr day of the week: Sun 6am - Sun 6pm]

As you are aware, you present position requires the INSERTION of an extra day between the high sabbath and the regular weekly sabbath - to have the 3 12-hr nights and 3 12-hr days between Wed 6pm and Sat 6pm.

But Mark 15:42 read, "Mr 15:42 "And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath..."

Sing F Lau
Supposing I can prove to you that preparation day and the high sabbath are the speaking of the same day, then what? Would that help?

Sing F Lau
On what basis do you say that I doubt the plain language Jesus used in "three days and three nights" and use more obscure verses to overthrow them?

And on what basis make you think that "three days and three nights" must be equivalent to exactly 72 hrs? Do you always mean that in your speech in daily life?

If it were only 60 plus a few hrs, then would it be wrong to describe the period as "three days and three nights" ?

What obscure verses did I use? If they are obscure, then it would be easy for you to discredit it.

Sing F Lau
@ "three days and three nights"
=========

This is taken by some as an exact equivalent of 72 hrs of 3 12-hrs nights and 3 12-hr days.

I don't see such is ever meant in common day speech.
The phrase can be easily mean 2plus 12-hr day and 3 12-hr night.

The former would require the "three days and three nights" to run from Wed 6pm and Sat 6pm.

The latter would be few hrs before Thu 6pm to shortly after Sun 6am.

I would take the latter any time. Its difficulty is comparatively minor.

Sing F Lau
Please put away your best arrows. Arrows terrify me. Use water pistol!

Sing F Lau
Q1. Yes, according to common usage of the words. We must not impose a wooden literal sense upon those words that is HARDLY true in common usage.

And especially if doing so gets one into the trouble of having to introduce ANOTHER day into the time fram… See more

Sing F Lau
Q2. Does this passage help?

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The day of Passover in which the Lord Jesus died preceded the preparation day that followed.

And that preparation day was a sabbath, a high day.

Apostle John said that. I would be glad to be shown that I read him wrong. Kind teachers have helped me learn a whole lots of truth.

Sing F Lau
Q3: Your best evidence against my day between the sabbaths appears to be the Emmaus Road travelers saying it is the third day since "these things"occurred. Are there any other witnesses against this day?

===========

That's not the best evidence. It is one of the several evidence.
Read the multitude of passages that make the 'third day' declaration!
Common sense usage tells us that anything after two full days is considered the third day!

For example:
d (part of day) nnnnnn (full night) dddddd (full day) nnnnnn (full night) dddddd (full day) nnnnnn (full night) d (part of day).

between Thu before 6pm and Sun after 6am is THREE DAY

Late Sunday morning looking back to Thursday is THIRD day since those things occurred.

You put in ANOTHER 24-hr day between high sabbath and weekly sabbath, it is no more the THIRD day, it MUST be the FOURTH day! We need to make a whole lot of correction to the KJT to accommodate that extra day!

Good night.

-----------
Peruse these articles:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/06/three-days-and-three-nights.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2024/04/three-days-and-three-nights-72-hrs.html

Paradise and the Intermediate State

12 March 2026 - Kenny wrote:
Hello, Pr Lau, in the bible study last Wed. You mentioned that Paradise was an intermediate state where the Lord Jesus was absent.  As you are aware, the Greek word for Paradise is used 3 times - Luke 23:43 – As He hung upon the cross, Jesus assured the repentant criminal, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” The promise locates Paradise in the immediate presence of Christ, accessible at the moment of death for the believer.

2 Corinthians 12:4 – Paul speaks of being “caught up to Paradise and heard inexpressible words, things that man is not permitted to tell.” His vision authenticates Paradise as a real, conscious realm beyond earthly experience.

John Gill - heaven is called paradise, because as the garden of Eden, which bears that name, was of God's planting, so is this made and prepared by him; as that was a delightful place, so is this; also because of Christ the tree of life, which is in the midst of it, besides an innumerable company of angels, and spirits of just men made perfect. Revelation 2:7 – The risen Lord promises the overcomer “the right to eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God. Paradise is where God and our Lord Jesus Christ are present.

[13/03, 12:49] Sing 
Brother Kenny, thank you for the opportunity to meet up for fellowship.
Thanks for your thoughts on "paradise."
I will leave some thoughts on the subject.

[13/03, 14:49] Sing F Lau:
Brother Kenny,
Thanks for your thoughts on the bible study.
Paradise (para-deisos) does indeed occur 3 times, as you have indicated.

Let me express some thoughts for your kind consideration.

It’s very common to equate paradise (para-deisos) with heaven (ouranos).
The same people are as certain that “hell” (geenna) is synonymous with the “lake of fire” (limnē pyr), even though they are reminded of the plain statement in Rev 20:14 endless times.

I had been taught those same things and parroted them for 20+ years. I didn’t know better. But our gracious Lord has been merciful to me,  and has given me a little bit more light on the matter.

1 . Here are some word facts:
a. Paradise (para-deisos) occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the NT

b. Hell (geenna) occurs 23 times in 23 verses in the NT; no less than 15 times are used by Christ Himself, many of them in the context of His solemn warnings to His own disciples.

c. Heaven (ouranos) occurs 255 times in 237 verses in the NT. Not all refer to that eternal abode of God and the final residence of the resurrected and glorified saints.

d. Lake of fire (limnē pyr) - occurs 4 times in 4 verses (Rev 20,21) - all in the context of the general resurrection and the great judgment at the end of time.

Check the above facts with the helpful BlueLetterBible app.

2. A careful reading of these relevant texts makes a few things self-evident:
a. Hell and paradise are spoken of in the context of the intermediate/disembodied state: the state between physical death and the resurrection at Christ's second coming.

b. Hell and paradise are in the context/realm of time between physical death and the general resurrection (which marks the end of time, and the dawn of eternity).

c. Hell and paradise are the realms/spheres of the spirits of the dead. Their physical bodies are under the power of ,death.

d. The redeemed may end up in hell but NONE in the lake of fire.- Read all those solemn warnings of Christ addressed specifically to His own disciples. Mt 5:22,29,30. Mt 10:28; 18:9; Mk 9:43.45.47;
- Disciples must take drastic measures to deal with personal sins to avoid hell.
- There is not one instant of Christ warning His disciples against the lake of fire. Why is that?

e. At the end of time, BOTH death (that holds captive the bodies) and hell (that holds captive the spirits) shall be EMPTIED; death and hell shall surrender all their captives to Him who holds the keys of hell and of death (Rev 1:18) for the general resurrection. Rev 20:13.

The emptied death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14.
- The spirits that had been ushered into paradise (after the judgment at death) shall accompany Christ in His second coming. 1Th 4:14. These shall be united with their resurrected bodies.

f. Heaven is the abode of the resurrected glorified saints.

- Those who have part in the first resurrection (Mt 27:52,53) are now in heaven
(Rev 20:4-6, a 3-verse paragraph that speaks of those who have part in the first resurrection seen in heaven.
- The redeemed dead do not enter heaven at death; their spirit either go to paradise or hell.
- Their judgment at death is according to works. Rom 2:6; 2Cor 5:10;
- Their judgment at the resurrection is according to their name in the book of life, i.e. redeemed by Christ. Heb 9:28, Rev 20:15

3. You quoted John Gill. Let’s listen to him then on this point:
Commenting on Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”
He said: "... There is a particular judgment which is immediately after death; by virtue of which, the souls of men are condemned to their proper state of happiness or woe; and there is an universal judgment, which will be after the resurrection of the dead, and is called eternal judgment, and to come..."
- The particular (and temporal) judgment which is immediately after death determines the proper state of happiness (paradise) or woe (hell) during the intermediate state.
- The universal (and eternal) judgment which follows the general resurrection determines the proper state during the eternal state.

4 . I leave you with a few related questions:
a. Why do some preachers preach hell?
- What do they want to achieve by it?
- To whom did Christ preach hell? For what purpose?

5 . Christ’s words: John 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

What are some obvious conclusions from these words of Christ?
- Is the Father's house a reference to paradise or heaven?
- Why must the disciples WAIT till Christ COME AGAIN to be with Him if at death they are ALREADY with Him in heaven after they died?
- What shall happen when Christ come again?
- When shall the redeemed be received unto the Father’s house where Christ is?

Feel free to ask any further questions.
I’m still learning. May our Lord bless us to learn and grow together Amen.

2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

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[14/03/2026 09:15] Alive:
Thanks, pastor, for sharing the exchanges.
Just a quick comment:

K mentioned 3 main points:
Due to time constraints, I will just comment on the first
1.  He heard pastor Lau say Jesus Christ was absent in Paradise.  Did Kenny hear or understand wrongly?

Pastor, please help clarify this first point, first. Thanks.

[14/03/2026 09:49] Sing Lau
There may be various reasons why he perceived what he heard I said that way...

- His basic presupposition is that paradise is synonymous with the eternal heaven.
- Therefore, if Jesus is not in paradise, then He is not in heaven!
- If Jesus is not in heaven, then where can He be? What a nightmarish question!

Wrong presuppositions have their necessary implications and create unnecessary and false problems.

After death, Jesus' spirit went to paradise. Then His spirit returned and was united to his glorified body at resurrection at dawn of the first day of the week (our Sunday  6am-6pm, first night of the week is Sat 6pm-Sun 6am. Jewish week starts on Sat 6pm.... )

Genesis 1:5 KJV — And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening (6pm- 6am) and the morning (6am-6pm) were the first day.

After His resurrection, He was with the disciples for 40 days, Acts 1:3.
Then He ascended to His Father in heaven. Acts 1:9ff

The words of the resurrected Lord to Mary...
John 20:17 KJT — Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The spirit of Jesus, as real and true a human as anyone who is reading these words, went to the paradise in His disembodied state.

The resurrected Jesus has been received up into heaven.

Rejoice, He shall return one day... He said these words to His disciples.

John 14
1 ¶Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

[14/03/2026 13:29] Sunny
Sing, Enoch & prophet Elijah who did not seek death. Were they in Paradise? Or are they already in heaven with our Lord?

[14/03/2026 17:41] Sing Lau
You are right, neither of them sought death.

Neither Enoch nor Elijah saw or experienced death.

Genesis 5:24 KJT — And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

God took him - body and spirit, the whole person. It necessarily implies that God changed/ transformed/glorified him, making him fit for habitation in heaven.

Similarly for Elijah.
2 Kings 2:11 KJT — And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

This earthy body of flesh is completely unfit for heaven; it must be transformed/changed/glorified by God first, made fit to inhabit heaven.

The same will happen to those who are still living at Christ's second coming.

1 Corinthians 15 KJT
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Since they didn't see death (the spirit did not separate from the body), they must have been changed/transformed/ glorified, i.e. made fit to dwell in heaven.

========================
Take a look at these related articles. 

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/12/of-mans-state-after-death-and.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/07/paradise-paradeisos-and-heaven-ouranos.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2024/09/paradise-and-heaven.html

Paradise and Heaven: are they the same?

 

Paradise and Heaven: are they the same?

Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Is the word 'paradise' (paradeisos) in the passages above the same as 'heaven' (ouranos)?
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Sing F Lau
Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

"To him that overcometh... " most certainly implies that there are saints who do not overcome. If all children of God do overcome, then this promise becomes meaningless and redundant.

The question is: what happens to the saints who fail to overcome? What is their lot before their resurrection unto eternal glory?

Sing F Lau
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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This passage speaks of discipleship of God's children.
The wide gate and the broad way discipleship leads to destruction.
Is that destruction suffered in this life time before death, or during the time between death and resurrection to glory?

Mark 
My little opinion is that both the word paradise and the word heaven may have multiple meanings that are best established by context.

Mark 
For a child of God all destructions, privations, chastisements are timely and thus before death. To be dead in body is to be present with the Lord in Glory. There are no intermediate states taught in Scripture.

Vicki Lloyd
I so believe that, bro. Mark.

Sing F Lau
Is the state of existence between death and resurrection distinct from the state of existence after resurrection, or they are the same?

Mark 
From the perspective of time and human reasoning, yes, in that for a period of 'time' the soul/spirit is disembodied. From a perspective that is not subject to time, no.

Charles
A soul is never disembodied but the spirit is. Body and soul perish in the grave but the spirit returns to it's creator. Body and soul await resurrection n glorification. Body and soul and spirit are subject to time awaiting judgement and resurrection/glorification.

Mark
Psychopannychism (soul sleep) is an ancient heresy. I do not feel a need to contest it.

Vicki Lloyd
Charles, you may have to await judgment when your spirit leaves your body but as for me, I will be with the Lord, and there will be no more judgment. That time was here while my spirit resided in this body.

Charles
God breathed into the nostrils of the man he had created from the ground and he bacame a living soul. Man is a soul inseperable from the body (soma). The person (soul) who sins shal surely die and death is the result of the sin of Adam. He goes back to the dust of the earth from which he was formed. The spirit does not die but returns to the creator at death.

The soul sleeps, people say that this 'spirit' is a mere memory and therefore not man. My belief is that the spirit is a real intinty though immaterial and there remains a thinking capacity to reflect upon past conduct. The spirit returns to be with the Lord and so "to be absent from the body (soul) is to be present with the Lord."

Jesus' body was taken down from the cross yet He lived on as spirit, dscended to 'sheol/hades', preached to captives there (disobedient people, elect, who perished in the Noahic flood)

Charles 
eight souls were saved by the ark and an untold number of souls perished in the flood and their spirits went to sheol, captivity, specifically for their disobedience. Body and soul perished in the waters.

Robert 
Brother Lau, from what I know, He that overcometh is the same that overcame, as in John 16:33. Also the tree of life represents eternal life in Christ as evidenced by Gen3:22. Romans 8:31,32 clearly all things are freely given. All that Christ is, is ours including His overcoming. 1 John 5:4 overcoming is a result of the new birth! All those in Christ shall overcome, as our Lord said. all that the Father giveth me Shall come to me and all that cometh to me I will loose none but raise it up at the last day. John 5:24 should clear up any doubts on this question.

Robert
re: states after death and before resurrection. John 5:24 also answers that question. For me, the only difference is the state of the tabernacle we dwell in on the last day, my body will be raised as a glorified spiritual body and united with my soul and spirit 1 Corinthians 15:53. also 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 body,soul, spirit 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Charles
He who overcomes is one who exercises diligent faith in obtaining mercy in timely salvation. All have the overcomer abiding by virtue of election, but not all are overcomers -ie, elect infants who die in infancy are heaven-bound but are not overcomers in timely salvation.

Some of the elect have not the Son and have not life. The overcoming life is found in believing that Jesus is the Son of God. Not all the regenerate have that life. Many are kept from that life by circumstances and acquaintances.

Charles
body and soul will be united with spirit.

Robert
@ Charles comments on preaching to the disobedient before the flood, or is that Scholfield's idea. Look at the same book, 1 Peter but chapter 1 verses 10-12 also compare with Isaiah 61:1, all prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them including Noah. He did not, as far as I understand, go to hell to preach to anyone he suffered for our transgressions alone

Robert
I can see that conditional or time salvation can really complicate understanding the simple. I am not sure that believing the gospel is optional to those whom it is sent. ie: Acts 13:48 all those ordained believed also 2 Thessalonians 2:13&14 also 1 Corinthians 12:18, Galatians 1:15,16, Jeremiah 1:5.

My position is that there are the elect with in the elect those who are ordained to hear and believe and those who have not heard and will never hear. I am not sure that even many in this time world right now have heard THE GOSPEL but they have heard another gospel which is not another. It was not ultimately optional that Lydia would hear and believe. God sent His word to accomplish the purpose for which He sent it. Much of the evangelism of today and the past 100 years has not been sent of God, but by man

Charles 
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Did Schofield or Peter say this? I believe it was Peter!

Sing F Lau
Mark, @ From the perspective of time and human reasoning, yes, in that for a period of 'time' the soul/spirit is disembodied. From a perspective that is not subject to time, no.
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When a man's body is still stuck in the time grave, and awaiting the end time resurrection, how could we think and reason outside the perspective of time.

Mark 
The cognitive parts of the soul/spirit are not bound by time upon death of the body.

Charles
The spirits under the altar seemed bogged down in the urgency of time as they cry out for vengeance. They cry, "How, long oh Lord?"

Sing F Lau
Mark @ There are no intermediate states taught in Scripture.
======

What do you mean by intermediate states in the statement above? I have always understood intermediate states as the state of disembodied existence between death and resurrection.

Sing F Lau
Howard, does it ever occur to you that the rich man is a child of God, but he lived unrighteous life. So he is tormented between his death and resurrection to glory???

He addressed Abraham as 'father' and Abraham him 'son.'

Lu 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(Howard has deleted all his comments)

Sing F Lau
Howard, If it sounds like that to you, then you have VERY POOR hearing.

I asked: Does it ever occur to you that the rich man is a child of God, but he lived an unrighteous life. So he is tormented between his death and resurrection to glory???

This question presupposes that the rich man is a child of God, and that's only possible by grace through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So to conclude from the question that a man can climb the mountain to righteousness is just BAD reading, and also BAD hearing.

I am inquiring whether God's children who lived unrighteously do suffer just punishment in the period between their death and resurrection to glory? and whether the rich man might be an example of that?

And in case you have bad reading and hearing, the question above presupposes the certainty of their resurrection to glory BASED solely on the righteousness of Jesus Christ accounted to him by God's free grace.

Sing F Lau
Howard, are there God's children that live like the rich man?

Are there God's children who enter the wide gate and walk the broad road?

No, the passage on Lazarus and the rich man is NOT about the torment in eternity. The torment in eternity won't be until the general resurrection.

You are TOO simplistic and are ignorant of the issue I am dealing with.

Robert Cook
Brother Lau, I wonder if we are straining at gnats? Romans 8 says now there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. I appreciate the genuine inquiry into a difficult parable, to say the least, it has always troubled me from a theological position on many fronts, but it is not worth making enemies over my brother.

===========

Take a look at these related topics:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/12/of-mans-state-after-death-and.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/07/paradise-paradeisos-and-heaven-ouranos.html

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2024/09/paradise-and-heaven.html