The effectual call ENABLES a man to answer the gospel call

3/4/11, 5:33 PM - Markus

Brother Sing, I hope you are improving and can soon return to your normal routines.  I am praying that the Lord will grant you a full recovery of health.  Many are praying.  We love and miss you greatly.

3/26/11, 2:32 PM – Markus
Who and what is Obert Badsham? 
Do you know him on FB?

 sing
I don't know who he is.
He commented on Charles Page’s post.
He said he is an RB in Wyoming.

Markus
He befriended me.  Just trying to get a grasp on where he is coming from.  Please befriend him and help me out!  I need all the help I can get with reformers.

PB's I know.  Reformer's I do not know.  Feel at a loss with some of them.  Don't understand their foundation.

Markus
This did not sound good at all:  Obert Badsham said,
“The effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it. (Westminster Confession, X. II)

 sing
Brother Markus, you are veteran enough to handle and deal with all sorts... Just speak and give them rope enough... and see what happens! He may be drawn to the truth... or he may hang himself high and dry. I pray for the former.
You are well acquainted with the only foundation that matters!

Markus
He seems close on some posts and far away on others.  I am not GeneDad.  His understanding of the Reformed is far deeper than mine from a lifetime of study.  I will try.  But I lack the tact and diplomacy of a real statesman.  It did not come through in the "gene pool".

3/26/11, 3:11 PM –  sing
I made a mistake... it was another man who said that he was a RB in Wyoming.

His quote from WCF 10:2 has a TYPICAL misunderstanding... basically this: the way they understand it is this: as though effectual call enables a man to answer to effectual call... therefore effectual call requires man to answer to it.

However, it is obvious that "he is thereby enabled to answer this call" has to refer to the gospel call.

Para 1 spells out what effectual call is: God's work of bringing a man out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... man being completely passive in that contributes NOTHING... in fact he was very actively in enmity against God when God effectually called him.

Para 2 spells out the fact of those effectually called who do have the GOSPEL CALL... and states the relationship between the effectual call and the gospel call, THAT IS... the effectual call ENABLES a man to answer the gospel call. That DOES NOT imply that every effectually called man will respond positively to the gospel call. The fact stated is ENABLING... nothing more.

Para 3 spells out those effectually called who do not have the gospel called... and this paragraph EMBRACES a far wider group than the Reformed folks would want to admit: they limit it to ONLY those who died in infancy and mentally challenged adults. But the phrase, "SO ALSO all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word" most certainly includes God's sentient children (effectually called to grace and salvation) in remote places... they are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.

However, the gospel regenerationists must reject and deny this simple fact.

Para 4 tells us that WITHOUT the effectual call of God... no amount of outward religion can save anyone, 'save' in the same sense the effectual calling saves.

Maybe I will go to his page and stir up a bit!
Always a troublemaker!

Markus
Stir him up, Brother; I will be there to help and learn!

He does seem closer than some.  But gospel regeneration seems to be the bane of so many.  It is good to be able to speak with you in this way.  I rejoice.

3/26/11, 3:44 PM – Markus
"Effectual call requires man to answer to it."  I would think this is the key issue with some.  Predestined or suffered?  Would you say this is a key issue with some reformed?  I would say it is with this fellow.

Markus
I see your post to Badsham.  Excellent questions!  Appreciate your help!

3/26/11, 4:14 PM –  sing
"effectual call requires man to answer to it" - that idea has already been completely repudiated in para 1.

A man in the state of sin and death is simply completely passive in his effectual call to grace and salvation.

The effectual call is already COMPLETED when he is enabled to answer... therefore that which he is enabled to answer cannot possibly be the effectual call.

Effectual call needs no man's answer to make it effectual!
It is gospel call needs man's answer/response to make it (i.e. the gospel call) effectual for the purpose it was ordained.

It is in the gospel call that the framers say "grace is offered and conveyed" - this is obviously different from the grace and salvation bestowed freely (in contrast to 'offered') in the effectual call!

But their addiction to and obsession with gospel regeneration blind them to this simple truth.

Markus
Very fine logic and doctrine.  The profound simplicity of Scripture.

3/26/11, 4:33 PM -  sing
Truth be told, Gene-dad taught me so much in asking questions... which was so useful for my own education, and learning from others, and ascertaining what others actually believe. I am so thankful for your fellowship.

Markus
I was raised on questions!  Daily diet.  He says: Socratic method of learning.  I say, "makes me dig, dig, dig for answers!"  You are my special Brother.  I rejoice that God blesses us to know each other and share in common Biblical faith.  Your fellowship is a special gift from the other side of the world.  No words.

3/26/11, 4:56 PM - Markus
I usually see the doctrinal points, but the logical points are often lost on me until they're stuck in my face and made obvious.  I just have next to no experience in oppositional points of view.  This is my weakness.

3/26/11, 8:55 PM -  sing
Thou art a thoroughbred... and that's your great blessing.
I was picked up from the dung hill... and the Lord blessed the PBs folks to detox me!

5/20/11, 12:47 AM - Markus
I added you to Bro. Dan's "Be Ready Always" group.  It is a very unusual group.  Some Philippine PB's, some Philippine PB's in Qatar, some charismatics and pentecostals, some rank arminians, some calvinistic reformed types.  Brother Dan seeks to reach out to these and form a fellowship group in Qatar and for those in the Philippines to send them toward PB churches and fellowships.  He expects us to be kind instead of harsh, to speak the truth in love, but to confront error with scripture.  If this is of interest to you, please lend a hand as you have time.  If not, the "leave group" door will free you from all connections to the group.  Love you, Brother!

4/6/12, 12:49 AM - Markus
Unlike most of my PB brethren, I have never believed the 'lake of fire' in Rev. is eternal hell.  If pushed to define it, I would think it is a symbol of what Jerusalem became at the time of its destruction.  I do not wish to discuss this openly on Facebook, but would not mind having a private discussion about it.

5/1/12, 10:00 AM -  sing
Hello Brother Markus!
It is Tuesday, 10 a.m. here in Penang.

I hope all are well with you and Annie-Mama.
I wish to inquire about a matter, and I thought you might be the best person to ask.

From my observation, it seems that Brother Trucker has been shunned by many among the regular PBs. What is the real reason? I would be pleased to hear from you.

Is it doctrinal, or some other personal issues among the PBs

Markus
Hi Brother Sing!  My main problem with Br. Trucker is that he continues to support, fellowship and evangelize with folks like L. Badley, Guesses, and Batfield.  Their doctrinal errors have been exposed time and again.  I would call it doctrinal, but I am sure there are those that would say my stand against them is strictly personal.

Last post I saw of Trucker's - he was in Asia somewhere passing out handouts by Piper.

 sing
Ya, I've noted that worrying trend too. He is drifting away from PB authors!
Quoting from them quite freely!
What common doctrinal errors do the Badley, Guesses and Batfield have?

Markus
It was disturbing to me to read that.  I would not throw out a person for not using PB authors, but it is troublesome, and that, coupled with his associates, is enough for me to leave him alone.

Badley teaches that time salvation is the equivalent of regeneration.  He makes no other distinction between eternal and time salvation anymore.  Guesses does the same.  Batfield believes that all the elect will hear the true gospel and is a decided Absoluter.

You experienced Batfield for yourself on Pound's list.  You most likely saw the exchanges between Guesses and myself on FGFGF.  I will leave it with you as to whether I am just against them personally or if I have a legitimate doctrinal complaint.

Guesses made the statement that 'your time salvation is just your eternal salvation here and now'.  I ain't swallowing that, and won't.
They are distinct.  Not equivalent.

 sing
Sorry, I was summoned by wifey to turn a lump of dough into spaghetti for her... expecting someone coming to talk DOCTRINE... so she feeds the stomach while I the mind.

Markus
Hope it is a good, productive visit.

 sing
Yes, I am acquainted, and remember all those things now that jolt my memory.

Markus
Many sound brethren simply will not use them or visit among them.  Some tolerate them.  Some of us confront them and try to show the errors.  I am in hopes that someday a written document will come out that speaks simply to doctrinal errors that all sound PB's will rally behind.

By the way, is there anything that I can do in regard to MatOng?  I doubt there is, but willing to help if I can.

 sing
I am raising this issue because of a practical matter. I was inquiring about KJ pew Bibles for a new work taking shape in Indonesia... and he offered used, good-condition KJ pew bibles. I have accepted them... I don't know if that's right or not. I don't want to give the impression that I approve his ways and errors.

Markus
I think it is fine to accept them.
Best labour they will have made in recent memory in my little opinion.
May the Lord bless your labour in Indonesia!

9/15/23, 12:55 PM - Markus
Your post, which begins with Romans 8, is an exceptionally good one!  It makes my heart rejoice. I hesitate to say more, but it is so good I feel I should. In a few places it would benefit from a bit of English language polish: Verb tense choices; subject verb agreement; word choices. These are difficult for me, and I have no doubt they would be difficult for those for whom English is not their native language. I have great respect for your careful study of English, and I admire how well you do with it, but this writing of yours is so excellent in logic, theology and Biblical truth that it should be as accurate in English as it is in your own language. I suggest this:  seek out the help of a mutual friend to review the writing and suggest grammar changes. Send it to Sister Julie Snyder and ask her to help polish the language. If it helps to know, Gene sought out her help several times and he was an English major in college. I’m convinced that this writing is as powerful as I have ever read on the subject you have addressed. I simply desire to see it have the most impact possible for those who read it in English. I remain, a little brother, Markus

9/15/23, 1:21 PM – sing
Dear Brother Markus,
I truly appreciate your kind words, and excellent suggestions. I will do so. Gene Dad has been a tower of strength to me when I was wrestling with the RBs...

GeneDad proofread the Pruning book.

Markus
I’m thankful for your insights and your ability to make them so plain and clear. The Lord bless your labours is my prayer.

Sister Snyder is a professional editor. She is as good a help as one could hope for among mortals dealing with English. 🙂

Sister Snyder and your Wifey - are very special people. When I first got to know the Primitive Baptists, soon after I received a gift from them - a massive Strong's Concordance and Noah Webster American Dictionary of the English Language. They have endeared themselves to my heart as precious Sisters - they knew what a little brother needed to be a student of God's word.

Markus
I’m of course quite biased in my opinions, but I find our PB  Sisters to be exceptionally kind and wise. And in Wifey’s case, exceptionally direct in communicating her feelings (right or wrong ). 😉

I find the directness refreshing so we communicate well. It may put others off, but it works well for us 

Do your job; tell the truth

"If two people come and say — one says it’s raining outside and the other says it’s dry, you don’t bring the quotes of both sides. You just G-- d--n open the window and look whether it’s raining or not... Do your job and tell the truth."  ~~ N. Bennett

Well said, well said. Someone is shown to be an idiot!

==============================

If two preachers come to you:
— one says his gospel preaching is necessary for the REGENERATION of the hearers who are dead in trespasses and sins and
— the other says his gospel preaching is needed for the CONVERSION of those whom God Himself has already regenerated,

You don’t quote as though both are truthful; this makes you look like an idiot! You open the Scriptures and rightly divide the word of truth.

It is ONE or the OTHER; it cannot be both. There is no such fable as the ordinary way of regeneration through the preaching of the gospel, and the exceptional way of regeneration without the preaching of the gospel!

I'd like to tell you why, and let these words of Christ Himself sink down into your ears.

John 3:8 - KJT
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

"So is every one that is born of the Spirit" - this is not difficult English or complicated concept, is it?

1Cor 14:38
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

A wilfully ignorant man cannot be helped; leave him in his wilful ignorance.

But you, "do your job and tell the truth."

An opportunist's scheming lie backfired spectacularly

Proverbs 6:2
Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.

An opportunist's scheming lie backfired spectacularly.

1Samuel 31
14 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it.
15 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.
16 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together.

2Samuel 1
6 And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.
7 And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.
8 And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.
9 He said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.
10 So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.

The opportunistic Amalekite thought David would be impressed by his deed (which is just a blatant lie) and reward him handsomely.

 2Samuel 1
13 And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
14 And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD'S anointed?
15 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
16 And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD'S anointed.

May the same fate fall upon all such opportunistic beasts, especially the opportunistic, self-serving politicians. 

And if the son of peace be there

"And if the son of peace be there" -
These words repudiate the fiction
of gospel regeneration.   

Luke 10 KJT
1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

Try these questions concerning ‘the son of peace’ in verse 6.

1. What is a ‘son of peace’?

2. How does a ‘son of peace’ come into being?

3. Who is there first: the son of peace or the itinerant preacher?

4. Does the itinerant preacher help in bringing into being a son of peace? Why?

5. What did Jesus send His preachers to do for the sons of peace?

6. Why does a son of peace treat the itinerant preacher well?

7. What does this passage of Scripture say about gospel regeneration? 

Justification: Immanent, Transient, and Declarative

#immanent_act
#transient_act
#declarative (without act!)

"...Justification, as a transient act, and declarative, follows calling; but as an immanent act in God, it goes before it, of which we are only speaking, as ought always to be remembered."

(The above is the last sentence of section 2b7d, Book II, chapter 5, Justification as an Immanent Act of God, Body of Doctrinal Divinity. There is another chapter on Justification in Book V, chapter 8, Justification as a blessing of grace)

A friend has been reading John Gill's work on Justification (Body of Doctrinal Divinity).

Yuen
The sentence in green is quite deep. I never thought of it this way. There are transient acts and immanent acts by God.

(The sentence in green is quoted above).

sing:
Immanent acts are His acts of decrees in eternity (i.e. before time); transient acts are His divine acts executing the decrees in time.

Yuen 
Someone who promotes peace sounds like the person has already been justified (immanently).

sing
You have NOT understood justification as an immanent act of God.
Someone justified immanently is still someone dead in trespasses and sins.

It is someone whom God has justified by His grace in time, RECONCILED to Himself by the life and works of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace... thus a man in enmity against God is, by God's grace, turned into a son of peace.

Yuen
Huh, even though one is justified immanently, one is still not a son of peace? Until one is justified transiently also?

sing:
Someone justified immanently is still someone dead in trespasses and sins.
He is justified in the purpose of God only, i.e. immanently.
He is not justified personally in time, i.e. transiently.

It is someone whom God has justified by His grace, RECONCILED to Himself by the life and works of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace... thus a man in enmity against God is, by God's grace, turned into a son of peace.

Here's a broad picture:

God elected a multitude out of the fallen race of Adam - this is an immanent act of God.

God purposed the justification of His elect in eternity. This is an IMMANENT act of God; i.e. DECRETAL justification.

Christ accomplished the justification of the same people on the cross. This is LEGAL justification.

The Holy Spirit applied the same justification to each elect personally at God's appointed time when they were still in their native state of sin and death. This is VITAL justification. (This is justified transiently - personally, in time. This enables him to respond to the gospel call)

The justification of the elect is purposed for them, accomplished for them, and applied to each of them personally - all freely and sovereignly, without any activities or works of man.

The gospel ministry is ordained to call out those to whom justification has been freely applied by God's grace; the gospel ministry is intended for those to whom God has ALREADY freely justified by His grace; such are the sons of peace, they have been reconciled by God, freely by His grace.

You will take some time to grasp these truths.
When you have, lead Brother Martini along.

Acts 18:26 KJV — And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and *Priscilla* had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Dear Yuen,  I'm glad you are ploughing through John Gill's work on Justification. Too many pastors do not have the mental capacity to understand Gill's work, and yet they impudently call Dr Gill names. You keep going. May the Lord bless your labour. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻.

Amen.
========

Reggie Lee
Amen!! Three Justifications! That's correct, bro Sing!

Sing ·
In this order and number
Immanent Act > Transient Act > Declarative: in this order.

Immanent act - the justification purposed in eternity.

Transient act - the justification applied freely by grace in time

Declarative act - the faith of a man in Christ declares his justified state by the free grace of God. Declarative is experiential justification.

Often folks who haven't read or understood Dr Gill shamelessly and impudently disagree with him.