Old School PBs versus New School RBs

Stop regurgitating reformed shibboleths;
Study the Scriptures and think for yourself. 

#questiontime

#oldschoolnewschool

Leongsy
But did you really depart from the Reformed faith? Or were you just analysing it correctly? Coz u r still teaching the 1689 LBCF in your church, not only once, but 3 times. If you have departed from the Reformed Baptist faith, why did u teach the 1689 LBCF 3 times over the last 30 years?

sing
I went back to the faith held by the old-school Baptists who gave us the 1689 CoF.

The new-school Baptists, like the Reformed Baptists, have departed from what is faithfully summarised in the 1689 CoF.

I have studied and written extensively on the 1689 CoF... pointing out the glaring errors of the RBs.

Here is an example of how the new is so different from the old:

The new: you believe in order to be justified by God;

The old: you believe because you have been justified by God.

Here is a classic example:

On Faith and Justification

Dr John Gill (1697-1771) was an old-school particular-baptist theologian, universally esteemed by his contemporaries of various denominations, and also by Dr Robert L Reymond (1932-2013), who was a renowned reformed theologian.

Dr Reymond said of John Gill:
"Gill (1697-1771), a Baptist Puritan pastor, writes a thorough defence of Calvinistic theology."
- the above is listed under "Selected General Theological Bibliography" on page 1137 of Dr Robert L Reymond's "A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith" Nelson, 1998.

Dr John Gill on faith and justification:
"Faith is not the cause, but an effect of justification; it is not the cause of it in any sense; it is not the moving cause, that is the free grace of God... nor even the instrumental cause... it is not in any class of causes whatever; but it is the effect of justification... Now if faith is not the cause, but the effect of justification; then as every cause is before its effect, and every effect follows its cause, justification must be before faith, and faith must follow justification."

- A Body of Doctrinal Divinity Book II, Chapter V, section II. (1769)

Dr Robert L Reymond on faith and justification:
"The New Testament everywhere makes it plain that faith in Jesus Christ is the instrumental 'precondition' [in italics] of justification before God... Therefore, faith in Jesus Christ... must precede justification as its logical (not chronological) prius... Thus we have the order: effectual calling... and faith in Jesus Christ, justification, and glorification."

- A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, page 707. (1998, Nelson)

How vast is the difference between the old-school and the new-school theology - it is a gulf unbridgeable!

If the words of Mr Luther - "the doctrine of justification is the article of a standing or falling church" - were true, then how many of the reformed churches are standing churches today?

Is your church standing?

Everlasting fire or the lake of fire in Mt 25:41

Brethren, find a few quiet minutes to peruse the short exchanges below.
(*peruse: read (something), typically thoroughly or carefully.)
-----------------

Leongsy
Matthew 25 KJT
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:   
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Sir. I am listening to Elder Yanathan's Landmarks sermon 6; around the 17th min, I definitely heard him say Matthew 25:41 is referring to the Lake of Fire.

What do you think?

sing
I think that's a popular fable.
May the Lord bless you to use a bit of common sense.
Please consider these few things:

ONE:
"everlasting" is carelessly understood as eternal. Everlasting hell lasts as long as time lasts; it shall be ended (emptied and become irrelevant) at the end of time. The lake of fire is eternal - it shall be ushered in after the end of time, THAT IS, after the general resurrection and the final judgment.

TWO:
Please ask and think through.
- Of whom does the righteous Judge require to show those kind deeds to His people? Does He require those good works from those dead in trespasses and sins? Or does He require such good works from His redeemed people?

THREE:
Read the response in verse 25.
To whom will you attribute the response to the righteous Judge's charges/censures? Is it a response from those dead in trespasses and sins or from those who own the Judge as their Lord?

FOUR:
The three parables in Mt 25 have one, same theme:
- The ONE Bridegroom with BOTH wise and foolish virgins; BOTH are waiting for Him
- The ONE Master with BOTH the good/faithful servants, and the wicked/slothful servants. BOTH are his OWN servants.
- ONE Shepherd who has BOTH sheep and goats in His ONE Flock. BOTH are in His one flock - He separates them.

FIVE:
v46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do a search on the  usage of "life eternal." You will discover the hard truth - life eternal is entered CONDITIONALLY through man's works of righteousness. Take a look here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/08/life-eternal-and-eternal-life.html

Heaven is accessed solely and wholly on the basis of Christ and His works alone.

And life eternal is not eternal life; and entering life eternal is NOT entering heaven.

CONCLUSION
All the parables describe some harsh realities ABOUT the kingdom of God...
- There are BOTH the wise and the foolish virgins waiting for the Groom in the kingdom of God.
- There are BOTH the good/faithful servants and the wicked/slothful servants of the Master in the kingdom of God
- There are BOTH the disciples who show kindness to the least of the Judge's redeemed, and there are disciples who don't, in the kingdom of God.

The immediate CONTEXT of the Mt 25  is the coming of the Bridegroom/ Master/Shepherd (the descriptions of the same Person, the Lord Jesus Christ) in 70AD to judge earthly theocratic Israel.

May the Lord help you understand. Amen.

Leongsy
Good. You should write a book on the History of the Particular Baptists vs the Reformed Baptists and also include all those incorrect interpretations of the Scriptures by the Deformed Reformed guys into it, and then u give your correct interpretations, so that everyone may know the truth.

sing
2 Timothy 2:15 KJT — Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is a WORK with these great purposes:
- THYSELF be approved unto God,
- THYSELF needn't to be ashamed.
- THYSELF to be found faithful.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is NOT to parade oneself; it's not to show the errors of others, unless they inquire or dispute.

If anyone wants to know the truth, they just need to have some common sense and be honest with what the text says.

Consider the above, and may our blessed Lord grant you understanding.

Amen. 

A Peculiar People, Zealous of Good Works

A Summary by the Old School Baptists on the Bible's  teaching on Good Works

1. Good works are only such as God has commanded in his Holy Word, and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intentions.

2. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glory God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.

3. Their ability to do good works is not all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ;10 and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them and to will and to do of his good pleasure;11 yet they are not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.

4.  They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.

5. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins; but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because they are good they proceed from his Spirit, and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God’s punishment.

6. Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him; not as though they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreprovable in God’s sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

7. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and to others; yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith, nor are done in a right manner according to the Word, nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive the grace from God, and yet their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing to God.

(Chapter 16 of the 1689 CoF)

======

Good works are first and foremost owed to the LORD our God; then to those of the household of faith, and fellow men.

Matthew 22:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 6

10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

The furnace of affliction

The furnace of affliction is indeed a good place for a child of God; it will purify by purging out much dross. However, it's a gouty fable to imagine that it's in any way fitting anyone in any way for heaven.

The only thing that HAS FITTED - perfectly and completely - anyone for heaven is the finished work of Christ alone.

The Macedonian who called

"And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us."

The Macedonian who called upon Apostle Paul to come and preach the gospel to them, was he already regenerated, or was he still dead in trespasses and sins, and needed the gospel preaching to be regenerated?

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Was Lydia ALREADY regenerated before Apostle Paul met her, or was she regenerated through the preaching of Apostle Paul?

Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?

Preaching the gospel is very necessary, but it is necessary ONLY for the purpose for which it was divinely ordained.

What did Paul's evangelism accomplish in Lydia?

==========

Constanzia ·
I always felt like he WAS regenerated.. why else would he care enough to listen to Paul or call for him in the first place?

Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?

YES

The Lord is the only one who has the power to change someone. I think opening her heart is the same as regenerating her. He didnt need Paul " but it is necessary ONLY for the purpose for which it was divinely ordained."

Regeneration happens when God wants it to.. Pharoah was ready to cave several times but God harden his heart because (I think) God wanted people to witness 'more of' his awesome power. Not only to prove a point but to seal, stamp it and send it home HARD.

Saul on the road to Damascus saw the vision.. there is no mention of someone preaching to him before hand.. He was really bad.. persecuting Christians and all.. His heart was open because God wanted him... His own agenda didnt matter, he stopped dead in his tracks lol literally. God is the one with the power to open even the most unlikely of hearts// regenerate them.

I hope all that made sense, it did in my head lol

Constanzia
As I said in my earlier post and forgot to mention it to tie it into what I was just saying.. I think regeneration has a lot to do with being open hearing and understanding. If a person is not regenerated they can not/will not 'hear'..

Constanzia
Ironically enough I was reading tonight and I came across some scripture that said what I was trying to 🙂

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

**16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.***

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Romans 9:15-18

Sing
"Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same as the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?"
YES
====

Does that mean that regeneration took place by the aid of Paul's preaching?

Constanzia
Does that mean that regeneration took place by the aid of Paul's preaching?

In my opinion, NO. God is the only one with the power to regenerate (I consider regeneration='Holy Ghost') someone. He does not need human aid at all. He is Almighty.

Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

"For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy ghost, even from his mother's womb" Luke 1:15

Who preached to him?

"With God ALL things are possible" -Jesus 🙂

Sing
You answered my question,

"Is the Lord's opening her heart to understand the things which were spoken to her the same a the Lord regenerating her from her state of death?"

in the affirmative... therefore indicating that the Lord opened Lydia's heart because of hearing the preached word.

Constanzia
Now I am confused..
"Therefore indicating that the Lord opened Lydia's heart because of hearing the preached word."

Ok.. if this what I said it is not what I meant. I believe the Lord opens hearts BEFORE hearing the preached word.. How else would one receive the word?

After more consideration, I am more confused about regeneration.. I am not sure if is the same thing as open heart.

I think I may have misunderstood the question or I put worded wrong. Sorry for the confusion lol.

Sing
There is a great distinction between regenerating a dead person, and opening the heart of a living person to understand something.

The former is quickening, the latter enlightening.

Many confuse enlightening a living person as regenerating a dead person... thus ending with the common error of gospel regeneration.

Constanzia 
See now.. My husband has been trying to explain that to me, and I just did not get it.. The way you put it makes sense.

I get the difference now.. I think so many people use them interchangeably.. so that is how I was thinking.

Thank you for making it easier for me to grasp, brother Sing 🙂 and taking the time to help me understand when some people would just argue 🙂