Cross-Bearers and Crown-Wearers - are they co-extensive?

What do you think of Mr. Spurgeon's statement? 
Cross-Bearers and Crown-Wearers - are they co-extensive?

Sing
What do you think of Mr. Spurgeon's statement?
Thanks.

DS
SPURGEON: There are no crown-wearers in heaven who were not cross-bearers here below.

DS: If Spurge is correct, then every imbecile and every infant dying in infancy is burning in hell. This notion is evidently false by many bible proofs

1. Rachels’ Children (Jeremiah 31:15-17, Matthew 2:16-18)

2. Abijah (I Kings 14:13)

3. David’s son with Bathsheba (II Samuel 12:23)

DS: This is a good example of how Spurgeon's zealous rhetoric wanders outside the bounds of sound theology. It finds much reception among those with a zeal that is not according to knowledge in the form of “grace” that is not according to grace.

SUMMARY STATEMENT: Jesus instructed his followers to “take up their cross” and follow him.

DS: That is true (Matthew 16:24). It is also true that Jesus is speaking about the cost of discipleship, not how to obtain eternal salvation. To suggest the latter is to accuse Jesus of teaching eternal salvation by works. This is contrary to the bible’s teaching that salvation, “is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” (Romans 9:16), is “not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13), and “Not by works of righteousness which we have done” (Titus 3:5). Confounding eternal salvation (sonship) and personal obedience (discipleship) is an error that is as enormous as it is common in our time. It is wrong division. Many sheep are misled by it.

SUMMARY STATEMENT: This implies a willingness to endure hardship, sacrifice, and even persecution for the sake of their faith.

DS: That men OUGHT to do this is certain. However, men are not eternally saved because they have done as they OUGHT. Men are eternally saved in spite of the fact they have not done as they OUGHT. They’re saved by grace. There will be many in heaven who did not endure as they ought, did not sacrifice as they ought, and did not withstand persecution as they ought while here below. I suspect that describes the lot. Heaven will be populated solely on the basis of the imputed righteousness of the One who did perfectly as he OUGHT in every circumstance.

DS: Spurgeon’s quote is a good example of why I rarely quote him. He said some clever things, but he spouted a lot of nonsense as well as this quote demonstrates. Good doctrine is not the “unique baby” of some particular minister such that we must quote that particular minister to have access to the truth. Where Spurgeon is concerned, I’m willing to throw out both baby and bathwater, knowing full well that the baby can be found in the care of better parents.

DS: A second cautionary note about Spurgeon (and any who possess similar rhetorical skills), a clever phrase is often received for its cleverness, rather than assessed on its merits. This too is a source of error.

Ron
DS. I guess it is good that I'm not very clever then! 😜

Mark
Amen!

Reggie
DS, excellent! My thoughts exactly!

Linda
DS, well said.

Sing
DS: If Spurgeon is correct, then every imbecile and every infant dying in infancy is burning in hell. This notion is evidently false by many bible proofs
-----------
That was the first thought that came to mind. Then I thought, Mr Spurgeon may retort, "Nay, nay, nay; such are in heaven, just crownless since they were not cross- bearers on earth.

Does his statement necessarily imply that the non cross-bearers shall not be found in heaven, or such shall be in heaven but not crown wearers?

DS
Sing - That is an interpretation that I did not consider, but I believe it is one that might be suggested by some. The crownless Christians. It seems difficult to reconcile with the idea of being a joint heir with Christ (Romans 8:17) who shall give us all things (Romans 8:32). Does that mean "joint heir except for the crown" and "all things but no crown"?

Reggie
Well, the Bible does say...

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross
The emblem of suffering and shame
And I love that old cross where the dearest and best
For a world of lost sinners was slain
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross (rugged cross)
Till my trophies at last I lay down

I will cling to the old rugged cross
And exchange it some day for a crown
To the old rugged cross I will ever be true
It's shame and reproach gladly bear
Then he'll call me some day to my home far away
Where his glory forever I'll share

And I'll cherish the old rugged cross (rugged cross)
Till my trophies at last I lay down
And I will cling to the old rugged cross
And exchange it some day for a crown
I will cling to the old rugged cross
And exchange it some day for a crown

Aaron
I remember in school how we used to have different problems we would have to solve in math, or arithmetic as some call it. Some of those problems we used to have to work we also had to determine if we had enough info given to be able to get the answer to the question or tell if we didn’t have enough info to get an answer. This is kinda like that, there’s not enough info given in this to give an accurate answer without determining with more explaining what the answer would be. There are different answers to this based on how one views the statement made. Just like with this statement there’s not enough info given to get what someone might call the right or wrong answer. Could be called a loaded statement without further explanation.

Sing
Aaron, What additional information do you have in mind?

What is intended by the crown?

Will there be any "crown-less" redeemed in heaven?

Is every redeemed a cross-bearer?

Aaron
Sing, that was my point. His statement leaves unanswered questions. We are admonished to bear our cross and thus fulfill our roll as a disciple of Christ on earth. Not all Gods redeemed will bear their cross, if by their cross it is meant our service to God and not a means for wearing said crown in eternity. It could be implied by the statement made by Spurgeon that those who wear a crown in eternity do so because they bore their cross here on earth. This is simply not true. We wear crowns in heaven, that aren’t ours by the way they are given to us by the work of our Savior Jesus Christ, and we cast them at his feet when we return home meaning we cast honor and glory to him for what he did and not what we did or do. There is no place that I can recall in scripture that says we will glorify our efforts that were performed while on earth when we get to heaven. The statement made by spurgeon definitely requires clarification.

Reggie
It's cliche'. See #3 definition..

noun: cli·​ché | \ klē-ˈshā , ˈklē-ˌshā, kli-ˈshā \
variants: or less commonly cli​che
Definition
1 : a trite phrase or expression
also : the idea expressed by it
2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
(3 : something that has become overly familiar or commonplace)

It's an idea by contrast...

“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Revelation 12:11 KJV
So... If they did love their lives unto the end, they would not have a crown to cast at His feet.

“the four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

Revelation 4:10 KJV

But, as you can see, the only ones who are mentioned to having crowns are the 24 elders...

So, it's kinda a leap to say we earn our crown.. it's Arminianism. Making the Bible about  you... rather than the actual people who are mentioned in the scriptures.

Joe
Brother Sing, the quote doesn’t harmonize well with John’s record.
Revelation 4:10-11 (KJV)
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

It is my understanding of Scripture that heaven shall be all about our praising God for our redemption, not about wearing personal crowns.

Sing
Joe, I don't know what crown Mr Spurgeon meant.
The NT speaks of the crown of righteousness, the crown of glory, and the crown of life. Which crown is conditioned upon cross- bearing?

Aaron
Sing, the way that scriptures reads says that the cross we bear is what efforts we perform here on earth in regards to showing honor and glory, praise and thanks to our savior for his grace bestowed upon dead alien sinners. Knowing that scriptures speak plainly about our spiritual life having nothing to do with our efforts and all about the work finished by the resurrected and glorified Christ tells us that any cross to be borne is not a means to have a crown in eternity. If a crown in eternity is had based on any of our efforts here in this sin cursed land then Christ did not finish the work the Lord sent him to accomplish, meaning he then didn’t accomplish the work he was sent to finish. Given surgeons wording on the matter and him being a man therefore not having final authority in what he says, the word of God has the final authority, we have to be careful we don’t try to interpret scriptures by what Spurgeon has said but rather interpret what Spurgeon has said with scriptures. This is why I said his statement needs clarification. All who have a crown in heaven do so be the work of their savior Jesus Christ, not by their cooperation in bearing cross(s) here on earth. That said, someone who bears their cross here on earth have assurance that they are one of Gods. This does not apply to wolves in sheep’s clothing. I don’t know that they could be said to bear a cross for their fruits, what comes from their works, won’t manifest as one bearing a cross to those who are truly bearing their cross. Yet, it’s not for us to determine if one will have a crown in heaven or not based on any amount of cross bearing. We would also have to determine how much cross bearing is required to have the crown in heaven. We also won’t be looking to see who bore their cross on earth nor will we be seeing who did and did not bear their cross on earth when we are in heaven. It’s not a competition. It’s the completed work of Jesus Christ that we will be concerned with when we live in eternity and giving all praise honor and glory to him for the crown he has given us.

Don
Thank you for pointing out this errant teaching!

Monergism contaminated, and turned in synergism!

What the video here
https://youtu.be/WNe9n5me8sg?si=mLwbzvMVh5O0brLL

Monergism contaminated and turned into synergism
by Mr John Piper and his cohort of reformed ministers led by him

https://youtu.be/WNe9n5me8sg?si=mLwbzvMVh5O0brLL

From 4:40 to 6:04... we hear him declaring these words

"We leaders here believe in a certain vision of God's sovereign grace...
There is not a thing in you or me that inclined God to choose you for Himself. Nothing!
There is not a thing in you that inclined God to cause you to be born again. Nothing!
There is not a thing in you that secures your eternal destiny!

Nothing! It is totally free!

This is OUR theology:

- unconditional election,
- unconditional regeneration,
- unconditional propitiation,
- conditional justification... faith, and that's a gift!

Our theology is meant to flatten us..."

=================

The singular human conditional SHALL undo all the divine unconditional.
That's no gospel... but BAD news! Worse, a false gospel.

His supposed monergism is turned into synergism by one condition!!!
He is right... he promotes a NEW Calvinism!

Shame on him who WRONGLY divides the word of truth!

=========================
The Essence of Reformed Theology- John Piper & C.H. Spurgeon
https://youtu.be/WNe9n5me8sg?si=mLwbzvMVh5O0brLL

One of the most misunderstood things in the modern evangelical church today is the Reformed Doctrines of Grace, commonly known as "Calvinism." For many Christians, Calvinism is a controversial buzzword that causes them to say to themselves "That's the theology that teaches certain people were created for hell without any other choice, or that God is the author of sin." Neither of these notions are biblical, nor are they a part of the teaching of historic, Reformed Theology.

With excerpts from John Piper and Charles Spurgeon, this video explains the true essence of Reformed Theology
==========================

Sing F Lau
The ESSENCE of the gospel of God

29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- unconditional election
- unconditional regeneration
- unconditional propitiation,
- UN-conditional justification by the blood, righteousness, and faith of Christ.
- unconditional glorification.

The NONSENSE of the reformed theology of Piper and his gang
- unconditional election,
- unconditional regeneration,
- unconditional propitiation,
- CONNED-ditional justification... by faith, and that's a gift! A gift that must be exercised by the un-justified (therefore under condemnation and death) in order to be justified by God!
- CONNED-ditional glorification

The two systems simply stated!

Choose ye this day the ESSENCE or the NONSENSE!!!

Sing F Lau
"Our theology is meant to flatten us..."

The gospel of God is meant to bring glad tidings of good things to us, His children!

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

The two system simply stated!

Choose ye this day the FLATTENING of Piper's reformed theology or the UPLIFTING by the GLAD tidings of the gospel of God!!!

Sing F Lau
"Conditional justification" is works salvation. He is referencing legal justification and confusing it with experiential justification." Charles Page.

Charles Page, please find an opportunity to teach that high ranking preacher the truth you have stated so succinctly!

Cantoro Joe
But when does justification happen? When God gives His elect faith to exercise the gift of His Son's atoning work? Or are the elect already justified during the time of election?

Hulan Bass
Dear Cantoro Joe, Yes, from a CONTRACT (Covenant) aspect as is clearly stated in Heb. 13:20. The four areas of Justification are plainly stated as Grace in Rom. 3:24, now the Covenant is again plainly stated in Eph. 1:3-4 - as being "chosen." Next, Justification is that of "Blood" - Rom. 5:9 both being that of Eternal application, then comes the 3rd and 4th both being Timely or Gospel Faith found as

Hulan Bass
continued: 3rd - Living by Faith (which was also planted in the New Birth when the Blood was applied to the individual - Rom. 1:17; 5:1-2--6; and then the Faith is magnified, amplified, displayed and manifested by (4th) Faith by Works - James 2:18---24.

Sing F Lau
but when does justification happen? when God gives His elect faith to exercise the gift of His Son's atoning work? Or are the elect already justified during the time of election?
=========
Cantoro Joe, good questions. Find the biblical answer to your question, and you are ahead of the reformed theologians a 1000 miles, including JK and TT!

I have come across many who ask questions but are not interested in the biblical answers to their questions. So, if you are interested in the answers to your questions, I suggest you read this article first:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html
Things New and Old: The Doctrine of Justification - as summarized in the 1689 CoF

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, Justification, initially, is in the GRACE COVENANT before the World began, but not literally in the “person of election” until the New Birth – Regeneration. The Legal Blood Justification is applied at this point VITALLY to that person. I have already quote thescriptures proving these two steps.

Sing F Lau
But when does justification happen? When God gives His elect faith to exercise the gift of His Son's atoning work? Or are the elect already justified during the time of election?
=========
Cantoro, for you to get a proper answer to your question, you first need to know that the Bible speaks of the distinct ASPECTS of justification. Without realizing this truth, you will not be able to give biblical answer to your questions.

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, JUSTIFICATION is a part of, written into the Covenant before the World Began.
The Covenant CONTRACT includes, and justification is in the Covenant. But at that point it is just a contract. The house is not build yet, but will be precisely according to the blue-print. This is the GRACE Justification, being the 1st Aspect. Even the Blood Shed Aspect of Justification did not happen until Christ died on Calvary’s Cross - the Covenant and Blood are joined together herein – Heb. 13:20. Again, such is NOT VITALLY applied until Regeneration.

Sing F Lau
Cantoro asked: "but when does justification happen?

Good question.
Answer: But which specific aspect of justification are you inquiring?
Below is an excerpt is taken from the article on justification above:

Para 4. The Multi-faceted Jewel of Justification
1689.11.4 - God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13) 11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25. 13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.

a. Justification decreed
- by God for all the elect
- from all eternity

b. Justification secured/accomplished legally
- by Christ for all the elect
- at the cross

c. Justification applied personally
- by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect.
- at effectual calling to grace and salvation.

d. Justification experienced /evidenced subjectively (para 2)
- by the faith of the individual elect. [this faith is worked WITHIN the heart by the indwelling Spirit; it is not a gift from WITHOUT]
- at initial conversion, and throughout life.

e. Justification vindicated finally
- by God before the judgment throne
- on the great judgment day

Conclusion:
Justification decreed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and finally vindicated.

Sing F Lau
Elder Bass, do you have a problem with what I believe?

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, The only reason I keep sending you statements on Justification is because you seem to keep advocating there is NO Justification until the New Birth – Regeneration is just the literal beginning of FAITH Justification. LEGAL Justification was at the point of Blood Shed on Calvary’s Cross. Okay? Every thing that happens IN TIME for and to the Elect was in the Covenant before the world began. including the Justification element. Hulan Bass

Sing F Lau
Elder Bass, then you should go back and read again!
I was legally justified was Christ died on the cross.
I was legally condemned when Adam sinned.

Is that clear and plain enough!
I don't write and speak with PB lingo! Sorry about that!

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, what was written, had much truth, but some phrases were not
clearly amplified. Give me your e-mail address and I will send you
a brief on my analysis of JUSTIFICATION. Okay?

Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan, please tell us here what are those some phrases that you find not clearly amplified. Thanks.

Reading your analysis full of PB lingo would not help me! <LOOOOOOOOOOL>

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, Before the World began, in the Counsel of the Godhead, GRACE was present, and so was JUSTIFICATION, but just in a Covenant sense.
Then FAITH Justification came literal at the point of Regeneration – New Birth, and BLOOD Justification did not come literal or Legal until Calvary’s Cross. Okay? There are many texts to prove all this.

Sing F Lau
"Then FAITH Justification came literal at the point of Regeneration "
======

This I disagree! That's PB's lingo. I don't buy that.

And I'm not a PB!

The legal justification at the cross is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY at the point of effectual calling out of the native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

Faith comes into play ONLY after justification has been applied PERSONALLY.

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, I’ve been an Old Line PB for most all my life, and Calvary’s Cross is LEGAL Justification.

Regeneration New Birth is VITAL Justification, when Faith, a Fruit of the Spirit – Gal. 5:22-23 came as each elect received the NEW Eternal Life. Grace was in the Counsel of the Godhead, in the Counsel before the world began - Isaiah 46:9-10; Heb. 13:20; Eph. 1:3-5 teaches when the CHOOSING occurred, The Godhead essence always, (aseity,) is: Wisdom, Power, Truth, Justice, Mercy, Love and Holiness. Again, the GODHEAD is always these 7 Divine Attributes.

Question: Are you believing GRACE and JUSTIFICATION, even FAITH and BLOOD, was not agreed upon in this Counsel and Covenant Contract?

Sing F Lau
Elder Bass, there is no need to repeat what you do believe.

I know them quite well enough!
And, I'm stating the truth believed by the old school baptists THREE HUNDRED YEARS ago.

You said you have difficulty with some of the phrases that you find not clearly amplified.

State them, and I can help you to understand.

You assigned "FAITH Justification" at the point of Regeneration.

I don't, and we are DISAGREED... if I understand your terminology.

And now you use another term for that, VITAL Justification... "Regeneration New Birth is VITAL Justification," I suggested that your phrases need clear amplification!!!

I assign "FAITH Justification" AFTER and SUBSEQUENT TO Regeneration, and in the PRESENCE of gospel ministry. I assign VITAL Justification to be SIMULTANEOUSLY with Regeneration at the effectual calling of an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

You are TOOOOOOO SET in your PB expressions to even understand what I'm saying!

Robert Cook Sr.
Justification: To declare righteous. All the elect were legally justified when Christ satisfied the wrath of his father after he became sin for us, period, he was raised to display or declare himself and all the elect perfected in him. He was raised for our justification. God declares us justified when we are born again, we experience the justification by faith. although the works were done before the world began! that is how I understand it!

Cantoro Joe
wait... i thought that presbyterians should follow the Reformed faith?
Are the reformed theologians (presbyterians) right in understanding justification? Or only JK and TT changed what presbyterians originally hold to?

Sing F Lau
Elder Bass, I have removed your last comment! No such pasting here...
It is better to deal with specific subject instead of pasting such BIG chunk as a comment.

If you wish people to read your lengthy analysis, write it as a Note, and then provide the link to it!

That's would be better!

Sing F Lau
Cantoro, do research and find the answers to your own questions if you are interested. The issue at hand is justification.

What do you understand about it? Have you read and studied the link to the article on WCF chapter 11 on Justification???

You are tooooo fixated on JK and TT!

Just what did the Presbyterians originally hold to? You tell us please.

And what is the understanding of the reformed theologians on justification?

Which particular 'reformed' theologians are you talking about?

If you can give us some information on these questions, it would help us!

Cantoro Joe
Somehow I consider ppl like Macarthur, even William Macdonald, a reformed theologian

Cantoro Joe

n i read their writings, they all i see the same as TT and JK...

Sing F Lau
Cantoro Joe, Are reformed theologians right on justification?
What do they teach?
What do the Scriptures teach?
Do you know? Do you even ask?

Or you have assumed what the 'reformed' theologians teach is what the Bible says?

Have you read and studied the article in the WCF chapter 11 on justification?

If you haven't, there's no need to waste further here.

If you are interested in the subject, read and study that article first...

Thanks.

Sing F Lau
"n i read their writings, they all i see the same as TT and JK..."
======

Cantoro,
Then "they all" are in the same error, just like John Piper, all belonging to the new school calvinism without even knowing that they have departed from the Scriptures on Justification!!!

Charles Page
what is TT and JK? lol

Sing F Lau
TT and JK are two Bible Presbyterian 'reformed' theologians that really captivated Cantoro!!! They are associated with the Far Eastern Bible College in Singapore.

Charles Page
who are they?  At first I thought that elder Bass was reformed!

Sing F Lau
Elder Bass is a VERY respected elder statesman among the PBs.

He writes some good things. He is a superb analyst, and writes deep and thorough analyses of different subjects, sometimes toooo involved!

He may appear to come across as reformed <LOOOOOOOOOL>

Charles Page
VERY respected = red flag!!! beware!

"I submit to you, that we need not change "at all whatsoever." Let us continue to "stay the course in the Old Paths" and "remove not the ancient landmarks which our fathers have set." "Let us continue to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints." Jer 6:16; Prov. 22:28; Jude 3." -elder Hulon Bass

could this be a stiffnecked and uncircumcised of heart position?

Sing F Lau
Some people can afford to have such confidence... they have pure pedigree and fine heritage. I'm still fumbling forward along the old path, and learn a bit from the privileged!

Charles Page
"Let us strive not with the Holy Spirit but let us prayerfully week guidance from the Holy Spirit which can and will light our pathway in the Old Path and Ancient Landmarks." -Elder Hulon Bass

So if you are led by the Holy Spirit you WILL be PB?

Charles Page
I aspire to such confidence, it is necessary for good warfare!

Do PBs ordain warriors! "Elder Warrior" However I refuse to be rebaptised by a PB at this point in time. I am secure in my childhood triune pentecostal baptism.

Sing F Lau
"Elder Warrior" - that's an apt designation for a fine soldier like you.

Charles Page
Elder Warrior!!!

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, you are the only person who has ever accused me of being “reformed.” I stress the word “ever.” Reformed brethren, have modified the doctrine, order, practice, duty and discipline, from the original to varying degrees, as each of them do not and are not consistent with their “reforming.”

Sing F Lau

Elder Hulan, can you please prove that I accused you of being reformed.
Otherwise, you should apologize. Thanks.

Charles Page
now there is a good reason to NOT be a PB, no one in the ranks ever questions an elder. that sounds like a cult to me! Elder Bass you need to go to the streets like the NT PBs and publicly declare your theology and let your accusers speak. I am of the initial position that you have reformed views! I can be changed in my views and the Holy Spirit himself is directing my paths!

Charles Page
I will devote myself in the next couple of weeks analyzing your sermons in search of reformed views and when I find them they will be made public. As warrior we call this zeroing in on the target!

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, I apologize, as I saw the word in one of your recent messages.
Love IN Christ, Hulan

Hulan Bass
Bro. Charles Page, I’ve never been accused of being “reformed” -“ever.”

Bernard Gowens
It is often truthfully stated that justification never occurred in the election room of eternity past, nor in the delivery-birthing room that occurs here in time. The legal term, "Justification", always occurs in a court room. The act of the new birth (regeneration) always occurs in the delivery room.

Bernard Gowens
Legal justification occurred only one time and that is when God declared His elect justified by reason of Christ's redemption accomplished on the cross. Legal justification is the Father's "Declaration" of "Christ's Righteousness" legally imputed (i.e., credited or laid-to-the-charge-of) to every elect by reason of the Father's view and acknowledgment of satisfactory propitiation performed by His Son, Jesus Christ, in His death on the cross. "Justification by faith" is only timely (not with eternal consequences) and occurs by and through the preaching of the Gospel here in time and occurs in the courtroom of a regenerate person's own conscience when one is completely satisfied with the finished work of Jesus Christ. One must have been timely justified by faith prior to that one's being timely justified by works within the public courtroom of men. All acts of justification are only legal. The act of regeneration (the new birth) is only vital, not legal. Justification is a rich and most beautiful subject to peruse from the teachings of the Inspired word of God.

Sing F Lau
Brother Bernard Gowens, THANKS. You make plenty of sense.
Is your "Justification by faith" [only timely ... Christ] the same as Elder Hulan's "FAITH Justification" [came literal at the point of Regeneration]?

Bernard Gowens
No, I do not think so. My view of "Justification of faith" does not occur in the act of regeneration--if it does ever occur at all with a child of God, it occurs after the new birth and by believing the Gospel story of Christ and His works. Many children of God are never "Justified by faith", i.e., many never become completely and perfectly satisfied with the perfect and completed works of Christ. Nevertheless, their eternal home in heaven is not jeopardized due to a regenerate's lack of being satisfied with Christ's work on the cross. "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19). Justification by faith and justification by works are completely without any eternal consequences.

Sing F Lau
THANK YOU, Sir and BROTHER! Amen and amen. I understand you loud and clear. You are so much easier to read and understand your writing.

PJ Walters
Bro. Sing, I believe from Bro. Hulan's comment --
"continued: 3rd - Living by Faith (which was also planted in the New Birth when the Blood was applied to the individual - Rom. 1:17; 5:1-2--6; and then the Faith is magnified, amplified, displayed and manifested by (4th) Faith by Works - James 2:18---24." --

that he makes a distinction between "faith" the essence (from regeneration) and "faith" the act of believing.

If I be wrong in this assessment, Bro. Hulan is free to state the contrary.

PJ Walters
Bro. Bernard is an able Old Baptist preacher whom I have had the great privilege and blessing of hearing preach.

Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan wrote this:
Before the World began, in the Counsel of the Godhead, GRACE was present,
and so was JUSTIFICATION, but just in a Covenant sense.
Then FAITH Justification came literal at the point of Regeneration – New Birth, and BLOOD Justification did not come literal or Legal until Calvary’s Cross. Okay? There are many texts to prove all this. Hulan Bass"

PJ Walters
Ah, I see. What does Bro. Hulan mean by "faith justification"?

Bernard Gowens
Brother PJ, You are so kind. I have read many of your writings on facebook, and I so appreciate your soundness and solidarity in the Scriptures. You have a kind spirit and a godly attitude.
May God always bless you greatly,

Hulan Bass
Bro. Bernard a GREAT BIG AMEN. Justification by Faith is Timely and few there be that find it. My only point is that Justification by Faith is only made possible at the point of Regeneration. Faith is not seen nor manifested without Works. Okay?

Hulan Bass
Dear Bro. Bernard, Another GREAT BIG AMEN.
You have precisely defined each step in proper order. Love.

Another GREAT BIG AMEN. These court-room scenes are correct.

 

A Calvinist is like this "B S Genuine Leather" wallet!

It is a "B S Genuine Leather" wallet!

Does B S stand for Best Skin, or Bull Shit

 

It is a "B S Genuine Leather" wallet!

I was enjoying my simple lunch when a man in his mid-60s, nicknamed by his friends as "Flintstone", sat down opposite me and looked glum. "What ails you, Sir?" I asked. He pulled out his wallet, and before he could tell his story, I joked, "Thanks, I can do with RM50." Then he told me his story. He was presented with a nice gift at a company function some months back; it was a posh-looking wallet in an impressive gift box. He was so delighted with that company gift, and he thought it was a "best skin genuine leather" wallet.

Last week he lost his old wallet - all gone, a few hundred ringgits, license, cards, etc. He looked morose when he said that. I would too if I were in his shoes, having to go through the hassles of getting the replacement. The only consolation in the situation was that he remembered the posh wallet. So he started using that new wallet last week, with some sense of pride, a little relief in the whole ordeal.

But to his dismay, the 'genuine leather' wallet started forming "blisters" on the third day of usage. Then the "blisters" were bursting and the leather was shedding its skin. To prove his point, he peeled a whole lot more of it right before my eyes.

"That's unusual; let me take a look, Sir," said I, and he passed it to me. I took a close look and read out the label, B S GENUINE LEATHER. "Hmm, do you know what B S stands for? "Best Skin, I thought," said he. "I'm afraid the wallet doesn't show that it is made from 'best skin genuine leather," I whispered.

"Then what could it possibly mean?", he sounded flabbergasted. I said in the most tender tone I could muster, "Maybe it means B S as in cow dung. How could it be anything else, seeing what has happened to your wallet?"

You should see his reaction when he understood! Precious. He thanked me for calling a spade a spade. (I did offer him my wallet but told him that he wouldn't like it since mine is just a card-sized plastic box of half-inch thick.)

The encounter makes me think; so much of what goes around as the gospel of grace is like that "B S Genuine Leather" wallet - impressively packaged in biblical-sounding words. But if you scratch and poke it a bit, then the thin glossy veneer of bible-sounding words will start peeling off and bare its cheapskate counterfeits.

There is even this serious saying, "scratch a Calvinist hard enough and you will discover an Arminian." My experiences confirm that saying many times over.

1Jo 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

It is a "B S Genuine Leather" wallet!

The Word, NOT Jesus, was made flesh

#Incarnation_the_Word_made_flesh
#Jesus_is_the_eternal_Word_incarnated
#Incarnated_Sonship
#Eternal_Sonship_a_Fable

Sunile wrote:
"Jesus did not lay aside His Divine Nature when He took up flesh and dwelt among us. He laid aside His glory, and then at times was "transfigured" before His disciples, allowing them a glimpse at the glory He had with the Father before incarnation.

"But Jesus maintained His Divine Nature during His incarnation. He was verily God and verily man. The Son of God and the Son of Man. Completely Divine and at the same time, completely human.

"Great is the Mystery of Godliness!"

sing
I thought Jesus was already the eternal Word made flesh and dwelt among men; he didn't need to take up flesh! Jesus is already flesh.
There was no Jesus before the Word was made flesh..

Sunile 
Your heresy denying eternal sonship will not be tolerated on my page.

sing
What is wrong with my comment?

Both comments were deleted.

Let me rephrase his words to reflect what I believe is the truth:

"The eternal Word did not lay aside His Divine Nature when He took upon Himself flesh and dwelt among us. He laid aside His glory, and then at times He was "transfigured" before His disciples, allowing them a glimpse at the glory He had with the Father before incarnation.

"But the eternal Word remained and continued to be Divine in His incarnation. Therefore, Jesus was verily God and verily man; Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man; He is completely Divine and at the same time, completely human."

I thought it was the self-evident truth that:
- the Word is the one-natured Divine Being,
- Jesus, the incarnation of the eternal Word, is the dual-natured Being, both Divine and human. 

Bearing this distinction in mind will at least assist us in communicating without confusion.

Jesus is indeed the Son of God and the Son of Man; He is the Son of God because He was DIVINELY conceived (in contrast to the eternally generated fable); He is the Son of Man because He was conceived in the womb of a woMAN, therefore as true a man as can be.

Just my simple thought.
Why do some go ballistic with such obvious observations?

And since you are here, please remember that John 1:1,14 reads thus:

"1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Many unconsciously read them as:

1 ¶ In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God.... 14¶ And the Son was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In the incarnation,
- the Word didn't cease to be what He was, i.e Divine
- the Word did become what He wasn't before, Divine-human Son of God.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Faith - fruitful and barren

No one quibbles about the barrenness of a dead plant!
Only the insane do that, expecting fruit from dead plants. 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02g72GFmH84hwJSKNdPbbv5GcarVbXbqVDP44sDuAyr5HZSdyRX4X6NzXE7ymA1kXhl

Faith, true and false
Faith, fruitful and barren

[10/4/2020, 2:08 PM]

Lylee
Sir, I have a thought.
True faith can’t be dead or totally fruitless, as that would indicate that the person’s faith is actually not true; it goes under the other category as illustrated.  True faith can have little/few fruits, like the minimum Christian or even hidden fruits. This category of Christians can still bear fruit when nurtured, can’t they?

On the other hand, false faith can appear to be lively but bear false fruit. This sub-category B1 is as bad as the other sub-category B2. B1 will continue to bear false rotten fruits, and B2 will continue to be barren no matter how they are nurtured. This is true hopelessness.

sing
Sister, I'm glad that you have given some thought to the subject; the diagram (you have drawn) shows you have thought through the matter.

The context of the subject is the faith of God's children. They have faith, a spiritual grace worked in them by the Spirit of God.

Introducing the adjectives "true" and "false" only complicates and confuses the matter. It may be asked, what is false faith; who has false faith; and is spiritual fruit to be expected from them?

The issue is with the fruitfulness of faith among God's children.  Others are not under consideration. Seen in this context, the issue becomes much simpler.

Barrenness among God's children is real. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught and warned of this evil.

Lylee
Thanks. My question was whether God’s children can be spiritually “dead”. Spiritually barren, yes.

S️ing
God's children are those elect whom God has sovereignly and freely quickened from spiritual deadness unto spiritual life, and that effect of that act of divine grace and mercy is immutable and eternal. So God's children can't be spiritually dead, i.e. without spiritual life. But, as warned by Christ and His disciples, they can be barren.

p/s fruitfulness/barrenness are in the context of the living. No one quibbles about the barrenness of a dead plant!