Do you believe in a God who requires or holds responsible a man - whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be his Saviour,
for whom Jesus did not die to save,
of whom Jesus Christ is not his Saviour
- to believe in Jesus Christ as his Saviour? Do you?
It is SIN for God's creature to reject Him as their Creator.
God and His creatures are bound by the covenant of creation.
It is SIN for Christ's redeemed to reject Him as their Redeemer.
Christ and His redeemed alone are bound by the covenant of redemption.
Morrow
I love "SOME" of the things A. W. Pink said:
Duty-Faith by Pink
"It is the bounden duty of all who hear the Gospel to savingly trust in Christ, otherwise their rejection of Him would be no sin. Many of our readers will be surprised to hear that this self-evident truth is denied by some who are, ...otherwise, sound in the Faith. They reason that it is "inconsistent" to call upon the spiritually dead to perform spiritual duties.
"A certain denomination in England have the following among their Articles of Faith: "We deny duty-faith and duty-repentance—these terms signifying that it is every man's duty to spiritually and savingly repent and believe (Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Matt. 15:19; Jer. 17:9; John 6:44, 65). We deny also that there is any capability in man by nature to any spiritual good whatever. So that we reject the doctrine that men in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God (John 12:29, 40; Eph. 2:8; Rom. 8:7, 8; 1 Cor. 4:7). Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons [unregenerated, those still dead in trespasses and sins? sing] or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Spirit, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption."
"As some of our readers have imbibed this error, we are anxious to be of help to them. We have therefore decided to follow the article by John Newton on "Ministerial Address to the Unconverted" in the March issue by first giving brief quotations from the writings of the Reformers and Puritans, to show how the framers of those [Gospel Standard] Articles of Faith departed from the path and policy followed by so many eminent saints of God who preceded them." A. W. Pink.
Here is the website for the whole article to show how the framers of those [Gospel Standard] Articles of Faith departed from the path and policy followed by so many eminent saints of God who preceded them.
Sing F Lau
Hi Morrow, you probably know what I am going to say!
I read Pink a great deal. He is one of those unique breed that links the old school baptist to the new school baptist... i.e. an old school baptist that was beginning to be influenced by the new school theology promoted by Fuller and company. It is Pink himself who has imbibed the new school theology!
Pink is often condemned by the full blown new school calvinists as hyper (that's what they call the old school men). But there is also something in Pink that attracts new school men like you! Though you like "SOME" of what he said, you will DISLIKE much of what he held dear.
Sing F Lau
The object of redemption is particular, and the gospel ministry is the heralding and proclamation of that particular redemption. It is obvious that the object of the gospel ministry is particular too.
The gospel ministry is to bring the good news of redemption to those whom God has redeemed, that they may know the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, and that they may know how to live soberly, righteously and godly in their brief lives here, and the hope of eternal glory. Eph 1:13, Titus 2:11-14
The rejection or non-acceptance of what is not true concerning oneself CAN NEVER be a crime of a sin. For some to reject the gospel is a truthful thing. They can't do otherwise. Otherwise they will be believing what is NOT true of them; does God requires that they believe a lie!
Would God require or hold responsible a man - whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be his Saviour, and for whom Jesus did not die to save - to believe in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour?
Do you actually believe in such a God? To believe so is to impinge upon the moral character of God. He is not unjust as to require a man to believe what is not true of him - to believe that he is redeemed when no redemption was provided for him, to believe that Jesus is his redeemer when it is not true of him. Wicked men require others to believe lies. Not the God who redeemed His people! Never!
But He most certainly requires him whom He has redeemed by His son Jesus Christ, and by His providence has the gospel ministry brought to him, to believe in Jesus Christ, i.e. to believe in the truth of their salvation by his free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus; to believe what is true of him as a redeemed of the Lord. Unbelief among God's children shall have dire timely consequences here in this life. Only God's redeemed can be charged with the sin of unbelief; it is they who have responsibility to believe the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour.
There is much temporal salvation conditioned upon the believing the gospel truth by God's children.
Wells
Bro Morrow, I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it is saying the same thing as the quote by Pink:
"The external ministry of the word, or the outward call by it, is not in vain; it has its usefulness, and various ends are answered... by it. All things are for the elect’s sake, and particularly the ministration of the gospel, which to them is the savour of life unto life; as it is the will of God that his chosen people, and others, should promiscuously dwell together, so he sends his gospel to them in general, and by it takes out a people for his name; calls them by his grace effectually, out of the world, and separates them from the men of it, to be a peculiar people to himself; and the rest are thereby left inexcusable; for if the light of nature leaves men so, much more the light of the gospel; the condemnation of men is aggravated by it; inasmuch, as though they are surrounded with light, they love darkness rather than light.
Moreover, by the external ministry of the word, many, though not effectually called, become more civilized and more moral in their conversation; are reformed, as to their outward manners; and through a speculative knowledge of the gospel, escape the grossest pollutions of the world: and others are brought by it to a temporary faith, to believe for awhile, to embrace the gospel notionally, to submit to the ordinances of it, make a profession of religion, by which means they become serviceable to support the interest of it. So that it comports with the wisdom of God that there should be such an outward call of many who are not internally called: nor is he to be charged for it with dissimulation and insincerity; since by it he declares what is his good, perfect, and acceptable will, and what would be grateful and well pleasing to him was it complied with and done. Should it be said, that that is called for and required which man has not power to perform; be it so, which yet may be questioned, it should be observed, that though man by sin has lost his power to comply with the will of God by an obedience to it; God has not lost his power, right, and authority to command. Wherefore, when the ministry of the word is slighted, and the gospel call rejected, it is most righteously resented by the Lord; see Proverbs 1:24-28 and such are justly punished with everlasting destruction by him (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). - John Gill
[much of the optimistic notions entertained by Dr Gill is quite misguided. Just look the the rampant moral degeneration in those nations where the Christian presence is most felt, e.g. USA, there is such open hatred and enmity against righteousness. sing]
Wells
" it should be observed, that though man by sin has lost his power to comply with the will of God by an obedience to it; God has not lost his power, right, and authority to command. Wherefore, when the ministry of the word is slighted, and... the gospel call rejected, it is most righteously resented by the Lord; see Proverbs 1:24-28 and such are justly punished with everlasting destruction by him (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9)." - John Gill
[sing: God has power to command, but who did He command to believe on His Son as their Redeemer? All men indiscriminately, including those who He did not give Christ as their Redeemer, or those whom He gave Christ to be their Redeemer?]
Juliot
The entire duty-faith doctrine falls apart here: Saving faith is not a transgression of the law if it is omitted because the law is not of faith [Galatians 3]; we are declared righteous through faith apart from works of the law [Romans 3]; ...and Sin is transgression of the law [1 John 3]. Therefore, saving faith is not a duty in the law. Saving faith is the assurance of hope [Hebrews 11] and this hope is not of ourselves [Ephesians 2]. Therefore, none a cursed for not obtaining that which is a gift of grace. Souls are damned for sins of unbelief against revealed truth. [2 Thessalonians 2]
Juliot
"There is a faith indeed which the law requires and obliges to, namely, faith and trust in God, as the God of nature and providence... moreover the law obliges men to give credit to any revelation of the mind and will of God he has made, or should think fit to make unto them at any time; but as for special faith in Christ as a Saviour, or believing in him to the saving of the soul; this the law knows nothing of, nor does it make it known." -John Gill
"The gospel is indeed ordered to be preached to every creature to whom it is sent and comes... And that there are universal offers of grace and salvation made to all men I utterly deny; nay, I deny they are made to any; no, not to God’s elect; grace and salvation are provided for them in the everlasting covenant, procured for them by Christ, published and revealed in the gospel, and applied by the Spirit." (Sermon 7: THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION STATED, AND SET IN THE SCRIPTURE LIGHT, John Gill)
Sing F Lau
Is there one single passage of Scriptures that requires all man without distinction to believe Jesus Christ as their Saviour?
I have read over and over again that Jesus is the Saviour of His people... and the gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ saving His people, and the ministry of the word/preaching of the gospel is spoken of as the work of feeding the lambs and sheep; it is not an instrument of turning goats into sheep. The gospel ministry is to make disciples, and surely you can't make disciples out of those still dead in trespasses and sins, but out of those whom God has quickened and made alive! Converts to Christ can only be made out of the living, those whom God has quickened.
It is that simple. It is indeed a command for God's children to believe Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour BECAUSE He indeed and already IS their Lord and Saviour be God's grace.
Morrow
Why would Pink say, "It is the bounden duty of all who hear the Gospel to savingly trust in Christ, otherwise their rejection of Him would be no sin." Is it a sin to be a rejector of God's Christ? Is it a sin to be a rejector of God's light, of God Himself? I think the answer is self-evident.
The "duty" to believe on Jesus Christ is not a call to a Law work. It is a call to turn from all works righteousness and fall into the arms of a loving Savior.
Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
I suppose you think that Paul was encouraging these people to quit doing bad things and start doing good things...like worshiping the true God...only...they can't, right? Because they might not be elect...so Paul was wrong to say that God commands all men everywhere to repent....and since he mentions that God will judge the world...oh...wait a minute...he must mean the "world of the elect" because he couldn't mean all men everywhere...uh not all individuals...by Jesus Christ...whereof he hath given assurance unto all, in that he hath raised him from the dead...uh..so God has given assurance to only the elect...but he says all...but we can't take him literally here...but we believe the Bible...but...oh my...when I try to follow your thinking Sing I just get all twisted up...please help me.
Sing F Lau
The answer is self evident. Problem is, people are confused!
It is SIN for God's creature to reject Him as their Creator.
God and His creatures are bound by the covenant of creation.
It is SIN for Christ's redeemed to reject Him as their Redeemer.
Christ and His redeemed alone are bound by the covenant of redemption.
How can a man be condemned as a rejector of God's Christ when God's Christ was not even given for him?
It is NO SIN for those who are not Christ's redeemed to reject (if this can be charged against them in the first place) Him as their redeemer. It is a GREAT SIN and MADNESS to require them to believe a BIG FAT LIE. No logic or common sense or divine justice has any ground to condemn such a man. If there is, tell us the ground.
I cannot be court marshaled if I give my middle finger to Obama the Commander-in-Chief if I'm commanded by him to go to Kenya. Why? Simply because I am not a member of the US Arm Forces. I am a soldier of Jesus the Captain of Host!
Think... think...
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "I suppose you think that Paul was encouraging these people to quit doing bad things and start doing good things......"
=====
Doctor, you don't have to suppose anything. If you want to know what I believe about certain thing, just inquire. When I am dead and gone, then you need to resort to speculation!
You get all twisted up because you have chosen confusion. My view don't get me confused or twisted up when I read the passage!
Paul as a preacher is aware of the specific and particular purpose of his gospel ministry... he is also absolutely sure who will benefit from his ministry. "Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2Ti 2:10 .
Morrow
I am sorry I used the word "suppose" with you Sing. BTW... I am thinking, and praying and seeking the truth. I do believe it is a sin for anyone to reject Christ. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, .....because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Oh sing...do you know the English word "because?" and then verse 19...
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,...... What is the condemnation??? It is that light has come into the world (btw...is that the world of the elect???......) because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God................................Think Sing...Think!
Juliot
Morrow @"The "duty" to believe on Jesus Christ is not a call to a Law work. It is a call to turn from all works righteousness and fall into the arms of a loving Savior."First, it appears that you believe the omission of saving faith is a sin. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." [1 John 3:4] That which is a transgression of the law is of necessity a work and duty of the law. Therefore, you cannot avoid teaching that saving faith is a work of the law if you teach that the omission of saving faith is a sin. For sin is transgression of the law.
Second, it appears that you believe souls are damned/cursed for the omission of saving faith. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." [Galatians 3:10] Eternal damnation and the curse are administered through the law for transgressions of the law. Therefore, you cannot avoid teaching that saving faith is a work of the law if you teach that souls are damned/cursed for omitting saving faith. For the curse is ministered through the law of works.
It appears that you believe these 2 things. 1. The omission of saving faith is a sin. 2. Souls are damned for omitting saving faith.
Third, the implications of any teaching which makes saving faith as a work of the law is very destructive to the gospel and the comfort of God's sheep. This teaching leads to these false doctrines: [1.] Assurance of our justification through works of the law. This is contrary to the gospel of God's free grace. We are declared righteous in our conscience through faith apart from works of the law. "Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law." [Romans 3:27-28 YLT] "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?... He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" [Galatians 3:2, 5]
[2.] The child of God is inevitably taught that they are redeemed from the curse because of their faith and faithfulness to persevere therein. This is contrary to the gospel of God's free grace. We receive assurance by faith that we are redeemed from the curse because of the faithfulness of Christ alone. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:13-14]
Fourth, Gospel invitations are for sensible sinners and not for the self-righteous. For example see: “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” [Isaiah 55:1] “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” [Matthew 11:28] “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” [John 7:37-38]
The self righteous are called to forsake their hatred of the truth, but they are never directed as thirsty sinners to receive Christ as their redemption and eternal salvation. "Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" [Acts 13:10] The self-righteous are to be sent to the law till they are made sensible to their sin. "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" [John 7:19] "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?" [Romans 2:17-23] "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?" [Galatians 4:21]
Only sensible sinners are to be sent to the comfort of the gospel. "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." [Acts 2:37-38] In Isaiah 61, we learn that the preaching of good tidings is “unto the meek”; the binding up is to “the brokenhearted”; the proclamation of liberty is to the “captives”; the opening of the prison doors is to them that are “bound”; the comfort is to “all that mourn”; the beauty for ashes and the oil of joy for mourning is unto “them that mourn in Zion”; and the garment of praise is for the “spirit of heaviness”. Here we may understand that we are first made meek, brokenhearted, captives, bound, mourners, and heavy in spirit before we are called through the good tidings of the gospel “trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.” First, we are conceived by the Spirit. Later, we are begotten through the gospel. First, we are made sensible to our sin and our need of God’s mercy. Later, we are comforted by the glad tidings of the gospel.
Gospel invitations are particular and not general. “When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” [Mark 2:17] The gospel call is for weary sinners that have need of the assurance of their redemption in Christ. But, it is not for the self righteous who are blind to the knowledge of their sin and the plague of their own heart.
Sing F Lau
Doctor Morrow, I knew you will pick on that passage.
Have you read this passage that came before.
"11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
He came unto His OWN.... BUT...
- HIS OWN received him not.
- HIS OWN received him not.
- HIS OWN received him not.
Who are those who received Him not?
- His OWN
- His OWN
- His OWN
Christ did not come and expect to be received by anyone else but His own. But of course you insist otherwise!
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.
Christ came for His own, and required His own to receive Him. The two are co-extensive. Common sense!
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.
It is pure madness and woolliness to insist that Jesus came His own, and then expect those not of His own to believe Him as their Saviour too, and have them condemned on the ground of their unbelief!
Morrow
Sing, I want to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that an elect person can be confronted with Christ and finally and fully reject Him?
Abraham, I am sorry you had to write a book to explain your position. :)...Have you not admitted that God REQUIRES men to repent of their Idolatry and believe in God as creator and that they are required to bow before the Law of God?...Yet,... repentance is a grace given just as faith is...and NO ONE keeps God's Law. Men are depraved wholly and cannot keep God's laws and yet the Lord did not hesitate to command a wicked, depraved Israel to keep His law perfectly. You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance. Again...I know that faith is a gift. I know that repentance is a gift. I also know that they are gifts that are only given to God's elect. Having said that...I must remind you that God has over and over again commanded men to do what they cannot do. For instance...Jesus commanded Peter to walk on water. He told lame men to walk. Now...my question to you is this...Does God not have the right to command men to do things that they cannot do within themselves? Are they not responsible to obey God when he speaks no matter what He tells them to do? Is their inability an excuse that makes them not responsible for their failure to obey...that is what you seem to be arguing.
Sing F Lau
Doctor, you kindly explain what Christ's word meant:
"11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
I am just understanding what Christ said.
Those who reject him and those who receive him belongs to the SAME category - God's children, Christ's own, those given to Him by the Father.
You insist that EVERY ELECT will hear the gospel and believe. I heard it loud and clear.
Ro 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes."
There were God's children among the Jews who were enemies of the gospel.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance.
=============
Doctor, I will speak for myself.
Doctor, it is not about ability. You miss the whole point!
It is about covenant obligation. One's responsibility and duty is determined by covenant obligations. It is that basic.
The covenant of creation imposes certain obligations upon man as creatures of God. These obligations extend NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of creation.
The covenant of redemption imposes certain obligations upon the elect as children of God (regenerated elect are called to believe the truth of their redemption by God's free grace). These obligation extends NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of redemption.
You don't need to agree... but for tomorrow's sake, please understand what I have said... and don't go on imagining seeming things!
Juliot
Some comments to add to the discussion:
"...looking to Christ and trusting in Him are either natural acts or spiritual acts: if natural acts, the kind of teachers alluded to are right with their general invitations and universal redemption, ...which may prove effectual or ineffectual, depending on the free-will of fallen nature; but if these are spiritual acts, such men are wrong and must be deceiving their hundreds and thousands. Looking to Christ and trusting in Christ are not such easy things, not such common everyday things as they are represented to be; these are scarce, something like silver and gold, which men do not pick up as they would pick up stones on the road. These are not to be found just when you will and where you will. We cannot, in winter time, go into our gardens and gather roses, carnations, and tulips. No, friends; I say no; looking to Christ and trusting in Him are acts which the quickened or spiritually dead can no more put forth than the dry bones, without life, could rise in the valley where they were found." -Benjamin Taylor
"If duty faith were a truth, it must have some meaning with God in regard to salvation; and such a meaning too, as that if it were the universal duty of all men, wherever the gospel comes, to believe unto salvation, then salvation would be as universal as the spread of the gospel, if all men did but do their duty. And the great reason at last -why salvation is not as universal as the spread of the gospel, will be because all men did not do their duty. And so salvation finally, will not be so extensive as it might have been, if all men had but done their duty; nor so extensive as it ought to have been, if all men ought as their duty to have believed unto salvation; nor so extensive as God himself expected, if, as a duty, he expected all men where the gospel came to believe unto salvation. This brings all the counsels, purposes, covenant settlements, revealed truths, promises, and acts of the grace of God unto salvation, into immediate subjection to, and a waiting for the duty of man; and that too in such a way, as that the duty of man, and not the good pleasure of God's will, shall and must determine the final issue of the whole! I can make nothing more or less than this, of the duty of all, where the gospel comes, to believe unto salvation." - John Foreman
It is to say, "that Christ hath wrought no redemption at all"
"We are not opposed to a large redemption, but to the notion of any being lost whom Christ hath redeemed; and to that of his having done any part of his saving work for those who will be lost. In my opinion, it is as far off from the truth of God, and as awfully opposed to the truth of God, to say that Christ, who is the God-Man mediator of the better covenant, hath wrought out a universal redemption, but which will prove all in vain, perish, and come to nothing, from certain causes in man, as far as salvation fails to be universal, as it is to say, `that Christ hath wrought no redemption at all, and that he only lived a good and holy life, and died a martyr, to set us an example, that by following the same we may go to heaven by a good moral life.' Both these notions are alike opposed to the truth of God, only one holds that he hath done the greatest and most glorious of all his works, to a vast extent in vain; and the other holds that he hath done no such work at all. Both these are strongholds of Satan, but the first in the present day commands the popular piety." - John Foreman
"That which is the peculiar, the sole privilege of the sheep of Christ; that which our Lord expressly tells us no man can do except he be specially taught and drawn of the Father; that which is the particular act of a living faith, such as is given to none but the elect; that which is intended for, and addressed to the hungry, the thirsty, the weary and heavy-laden, the outcast and ready to perish, is now made to be the duty of all men, an easy and simple act which everybody is bound to do, and which anybody can do if he likes. "Come to Jesus" is spread abroad in tracts by thousands; is printed in all types, sets, and sizes; is thrown down area steps, spread about broad-cast at fairs, horseraces, and executions; and is the standing stock-in-trade of every beardless youth who, on a Sunday afternoon, can get round him a knot of idlers to preach to in the parks." - J.C. Philpot
Juliot
@"You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance.
Again...I know that faith is a gift. I know that repentance... is a gift. I also know that they are gifts that are only given to God's elect. Having said that...I must remind you that God has over and over again commanded men to do what they cannot do. For instance...Jesus commanded Peter to walk on water. He told lame men to walk. Now...my question to you is this...Does God not have the right to command men to do things that they cannot do within themselves? Are they not responsible to obey God when he speaks no matter what He tells them to do? Is their inability an excuse that makes them not responsible for their failure to obey...that is what you seem to be arguing."
Jesus did not leaves Peter to walk on water of himself. There was power and strength from God provided for Peter to obey. Jesus did not command the lame man to walk of himself. There was power and strength form God provided for this lame man to walk. In both these cases, the Spirit did not command without providing power.
God commands souls to obey the law because it is good and right. The reason why man cannot obey the law is because of the weakness of his flesh and his carnal mind. The law makes no provisions of power or strength because man is only required to do what he ought to do in his own natural faculties. The law does not require anyone to perform New Creature acts such as trusting in the Mercy of Christ.
God does not command the self-righteous to savingly come to Christ because Eternal salvation is a Gift of Free Grace for God's Sheep. They are made sensible to their sins before they can embrace this gift. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. [See James 4] God does not command anyone to come to Christ of themselves and the Spirit only comforts the poor sinners that He has quickened.
Morrow
Sing...please give me a passage of Scripture that speaks of the covenant of creation. Secondly, you asked my interpretation of "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." Here it is... John was not talking about Christ coming unto his own children...but to the Jewish race. He came to his own Jewish people...but even among them God graciously regenerated some and they believed on Him. The way you present this verse leaves us with the idea the Christ came to His own children and they rejected him...but because they were his...by being justified from eternity...they ended up with Him..the one they hated and rejected...forever. Again, you impose your grid on Scripture. You come to the Scriptures with a preconceived idea and try to figure a way to make them fit your idea. I have been guilty of that as I believe most of us are...but I don't want to do that and I think you should soberly consider the possibility that you are doing that even before you answer this post.
Morrow
Abraham: what makes you think I disagree with the quote below?
"Looking to Christ and trusting in Christ are not such easy things, not such common everyday things as they are represented to be; these are scarce, something like silver and gold, which men do not pick up as they would pick up stones on t...he road. These are not to be found just when you will and where you will. We cannot, in winter time, go into our gardens and gather roses, carnations, and tulips. No, friends; I say no; looking to Christ and trusting in Him are acts which the quickened or spiritually dead can no more put forth than the dry bones, without life, could rise in the valley where they were found." -Benjamin Taylor
The problem is you paint everyone with the same brush...you talk to me and quote things as if you are arguing against an Arminian. I am not. But I do believe that it is every man's duty to see himself lost, in need of a savior, and to turn to Christ...Can everyman do that? NO! Only those who are shown special grace can ... but that does not release wicked men who should come to Christ and who need to turn from their sin and who need to be saved from the wrath of God ...their inability does not release them from their responsibility but only adds to their guilt as Christ haters and God rejectors. Christ is a savor of life unto life for those who believe...He is a savor of death unto death to those who do not. If your line of thinking was correct He would NOT be a savor of death unto death to unbelievers because (according to your view) they are not responsible for rejecting Christ.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ please give me a passage of Scripture that speaks of the covenant of creation. I am surprised by such a question!
A passage of Scripture that speak of the covenant of creation:
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1.
What is the context of this passage?
On what basis are they are without excuse?
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "secondly...you asked my interpretation of "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."
Of the four Gospel accounts, John is the most universal account... but you, through your "preconceived idea and try to figure a way to make them fit your idea" constricted it, want to apply it to the Jews only!
Jesus came unto His own. And His own is the Jews, said Morrow! So, Jesus came unto the Jews only!
You have just contradicted John... who speaks of God sending Jesus for the world, not just the Jews only!
Morrow
I can see that you really took my admonition to think before you answered me to heart....man you think quickly. To believe that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children is one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen . I am through.
[Morrow, you have just twisted John's word too... John says "his own received him not" into "his own hated God." The simple fact is that there are those Jews filled with the zeal OF God who didn't receive Jesus as the promised Messiah. You love the fable that EVERY child of God will receive Jesus as the Messiah - a notion completely contradicted by the plain statements of Scriptures!]
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, you must not impute your imaginations as my belief. I have no where stated that that I "believe men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children."
Haven't you heard of people who are devoted to the God of Abraham but are enemies to the gospel? Those regenerated by God experience radical change in their life. They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET. And some, when they hear the gospel, they will not believe. That was the case with some of the Jews Apostle Paul had to deal with. They were God's children SO STUCK in the old covenant. and were unwilling to embrace the new covenant in Christ.
Dr Morrow, I have always told my children, "If you cannot represent the view of your opponent, you have forfeited the right to dispute him." Apparently you were never taught that principle.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "To believe that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children is one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen"
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It is indeed one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God.
BUT thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour! Not through yet!
You have falsely accused your chinese brother! Just pulling your short legs.
It was instructive interacting with you, Doc..
Morrow
Sing, You have represented your view well enough so that I don't have to. It is not a false witness to quote you. I have never heard what you are saying espoused any where else. You readily admit that "And some, when they hear the gospel..., they will not believe. That was the case with some of the Jews Apostle Paul had to deal with. They were God's children SO STUCK in the old covenant. and were unwilling to embrace the new covenant in Christ." If these who are "stuck" as you say in the old covenant are unwilling to embrace the New Covenant in Christ they are cursed forever. Paul says as much in Galatians 1. Believe what you will brother but you idea here is pure poison. I am not laughing out loud...I am sorry you believe such things...I am sorry you teach them to others.
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, you have just changed subject!
You accused me of believing "that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children."
And I told you, "Those regenerated by God experience radical change in their life. They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET."
Then you equate your words, ""that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children" to my words, "They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET."
Are they really speaking of the same things? You speak of those who hate God in this life and die in that state. I speak of God's children who fear God and works righteousness. Are we speaking of the same?
And you are saying that God's children among the Jews who are so stuck in their old covenant way of worship and would not embrace the new covenant instituted by Christ as cursed forever!
Hmmmm God cursing forever His own children. Now that is more likely pure poison, one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen.
You are just so upset because I point out to you that you can't even represent what I say correctly!
Sing F Lau
Those cursed in Galatians 1 are the preachers of another gospel, and not those God's children among the Jews whom Paul worked so patiently to convert them. Many of them, i.e God's children among the Jews remain enemies of the gospel... Paul said it, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes."Ro 11:28
There were God's children among the Jews who were enemies of the gospel. You just don't like to hear this fact because it mess up your theological grid! HAHAHA. Laugh with me!
Wells
Sing, How can a man reject the Gospel and it still be said that he loves God? Didn't Jesus say "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Why did they not hear? Did Jesus not say "My sheep hear my voice."?
Sing F Lau
Adam, good questions.
Adam, what does it mean when Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice"? How does a sheep hear the voice of Jesus Christ? What voice is that? Is it speaking of the life giving voice of Christ, or is it the voice of Adam preaching to convert God's children? Tell us, which is which?
Have you read Paul's words about those Jews that great zeal OF God but are enemies of the gospel?
10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Some think apostle Paul is dealing with non-elect Jews! But Paul knew well enough that only God's children among the Jews are capable of being saved - they have great zeal OF - OF - OF (emphasized because many translation have PERVERTED and TWISTED this into zeal IN - IN - IN God."
Only God's children are filled with the zeal OF God. Of course pagans and heathens are filled with zeal for their gods.
Ro 11:7" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Who are those blinded? Those Jews dead in trespasses and sins? Only stupid men believe that those dead in trespasses and sins need to be blinded. They may waste moves, the all-wise God does not. Some were elected to gospel light, others were blinded.
Juliot
An example of a quickened soul that is in need of the power of the gospel and faith in Christ - "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. F...or I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." [Rom 7:16-19]
An example of God's children turning from the truth of the gospel - "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" {Gal 3:1] "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?... My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." [Gal 4:8-16, 19-20]
The sheep of Christ are manifested as they that hear His voice and follow Him. But, not all of God's sheep persevere in continually hearing His voice and following Him. As Solomon they do not go fully after the LORD. We may know someone to be a sheep as they hear the voice of Christ and follow Him. It is when Christ puts forth and goes before His own sheep that they are strengthened by the power of the gospel to forsake the voice of strangers. "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." [John 10:4-5]
Wells
Abraham, this is fine but it seems you are referring to those who had, at one point, believed the Gospel. What Sing is trying to say is that there are those Elect who NEVER believe the Gospel even after hearing it. This I can not see and feel it contradicts everything taught in scripture, no?
Juliot
Hey Adam, there are many of God's lost sheep who do not believe the gospel before they die. It's not that will "never" believe the gospel, but they may not believe the gospel before they die. Elect infants that have perished in infancy do not believe the gospel before they die. Elect Deaf and mentally ill do not believe the gospel before they die. Many lost sheep do not believe the gospel before they die. Like the perishing infants, the deaf, and the mentally ill... all of God's sheep shall be drawn by the Father to believe the gospel and fellowship in Christ eventually. Jesus has redeemed people among every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. Has the gospel been preached to every kindred, tongue, people, and nation? Is it impossible for Christ to have redeemed any among the billions of billions of lost souls that could never hear the gospel because of the lack of gospel missionaries?
Many of God's sheep do not believe the gospel the first time they hear it. But, Jesus seeks all His lost sheep and cares for them even when they are lost. Consider the growth of Nicodemus.
Nicodemus in unbelief to the hope of the gospel - "...Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him... Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?... If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" [John 3:2, 10, and 12]
Nicodemus' opposition with the scoffers - "The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" [John 7:46-51]
Nicodemus caring for our Lord - "...after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury." [John 19:38-40]
What are your thoughts? Blessings.
Wells
I agree that not all believe at first and that faith most certainly grows as the outward call becomes more clear. (In this discussion we are not speaking of infants, invalids and others who have no means.) The problem I have is that Sing has clearly stated that there are those elect who hear the Gospel and refuse it. Have I misunderstood him? I think not... he made his point very clear as usual.
What do you do with this massage in 2 Thess 2? Is it speaking of the elect? And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Juliot
Many of God's lost sheep reject the gospel. Every lost sheep that has refused to trust that God is sovereign in His electing love has rejected the free grace of the gospel. They may believe many truths of the gospel. But, if one rejects the truth of the cause of free grace of the gospel, they reject the gospel. Every lost sheep that has refused to believe that their assurance is by faith apart from works of the law has refused the free grace of the gospel. This was the error of the Galatians. They had the true gospel preached to them and they turned from it. 2 Th 2 is referring to being damned in the conscience and falling into a destruction in time. Temporal destruction is intended to chastise and humble God sheep. Consider Lamentations 1 and 3. Notice in 2 Thess. 2 they are sent a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. This delusion reaches their conscience and leaves them in darkness under the fear of death. Had they believed the gospel they would have been saved from this strong delusion.
Consider similar judgments. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." [1 Corinthians 11:29] "But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." [1 Timothy 5:11-13] "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." [1 Timothy 2:14-15] "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." [Matthew 18:32-35] "In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." [Isaiah 54:8]
Also, consider Solomon in 1 Kings 11. Solomon could not have been receiving and persevering in the joy of His salvation while perusing and persevering in idolatry. Solomon had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the love of the truth in his idolatrous ways. Therefore, a Sheep may fall in the error of the wicked in 2 Thess 2.
