Some features of CharismaniaSing F Lau
Someone asked: What are the distinct features/characteristics of a charismatic church compared with a church that is not charismatic?
April 4 12:37pm
Sing F Lau
Another gave this reply:
1. They exalt supposed spiritual gifts over love of the brethren and sound doctrine.
2. They exalt the ministry of the Holy Spirit over the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. They exalt women into official roles in the church that ...the Bible condemns.
4. They exalt spiritual "gifts" that ceased to exist nearly 2000 years ago.
5. They resent sound doctrine and replace it with noise, entertainment, and fables.
6. They have a history that does not extend back further than about 1901.
7. They exalt so-called healing and other "miracles" over preaching God's word.
8. They pretend to divine inspiration to come up with new, heretical doctrines.
9. They preach with a lot of sound bites but very little or no substance.
10. They falsely believe they have the gifts and power of the apostles of Christ.
Bell
And why do you suppose that spiritual gifts ceased to exist nearly 2000 years ago? Gifts are never to be exalted, only Christ. While we do not attend a charismatic church, I do believe that non-charismatic churches exalt doctrine and still do not exalt Christ.
Sing F Lau
Sassy Belle from the Hill, go and tell them off if they don't exalt Christ! Whack them HARD!
I do believe ALL revelatory gifts are gone... with the disappearance of the apostles. When there is no more revelation, there is no more need of revelatory gifts! Just common sense to me.
Bell
I probably should not have said that non-charismatic churches exalt doctrine, in many cases, that would be a plus. Some exalt football games, prosperity, peace, etc. While I commend sound doctrine, Jesus Christ MUST be our message....(as Apostle Paul) called it in Romans 15...gospel of Christ, which he FULLY preached!
Bell
Brother Sing...NEVER trust common sense. God is so much bigger than our common sense. And when is there no more need for revelation? I would love to see more Christians receive the revelation of Christ! Apostle Paul had it....and he determined to know nothing other than Jesus Christ & Him crucified! Everything that we understand, Christ has to reveal to us! We receive it line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. Is 28:10
Sing F Lau
God's truth is never contrary to common sense, or irrational or illogical - that's what I mean. If only believers observe that basic axiom, they would save themselves from so much so much common errors. Common sense will filter away most of the prevailing errors.
Jesus Christ CAN'T be preached without sound doctrines... truth concerning Christ and his work of redemption must be presented truthfully. So many peddle and hawk false Jesus and lies about Jesus.
Bell
How can we exalt common sense! It stems from human beings! I look back at things that the LORD led me to do that was contrary to common sense! What Abraham did was contrary to common sense. Moses was hesitant to lead the people because ...common sense told him that he was not a good speaker. Jonas knew God & His mercy well enough that his common sense made him disobedient....and on & on!! Actually...I hear little of Jesus even hawked today. The Church MUST bring Christ back to the forefront. No wonder He stands at the door of this Laodicean church and knocks. He has been left out!
Sing F Lau
Much of what we see today is Church-ianity and Nice-ianity. There is little Christ-ianity.
And who is exalting common sense? Too many despise common sense and end with tortuous interpretations.
Deal
Amen Bro. Sing
Bell
The preaching of the cross of Christ is illogical! Does it make logical sense that by one mans death, many could be made righteous? Brother, I do not doubt that you are a very intelligent man. Perhaps too intelligent. I know of a dear Christian man who is slightly retarded, who simply loves and serves God wholeheartedly. When he witnesses Christ, it is like music flowing! He probably could not explain the word "doctrine" yet he has been made a possessor of the life of Christ!
Hart
1) could be made righteous ; 2) not-so-intelligent minister; 3) music flow 4) new birth processing via "Message of the Cross"
Bell
Word twister Richard read Romans 5:19
Hart
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." .. Does the word of God say, 'could' or 'shall'? Did I twist your word?
Page
oh no, someone is charisphobic!! akin to xenophobic
Sing F Lau
Sassy Bell @ "The preaching of the cross of Christ is illogical!"
Tell me which part of it is illogical? And illogical to who? Are these logical and reasonable questions?
Sassy Bell @ "Does it make logical sense that by one mans death, many could be made righteous?"
It makes PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE because God appointed the death of Jesus Christ as the substitute of the many. I fear you may be slandering that God is illogical and senseless.
Sassy Bell @ "Brother, I do not doubt that you are a very intelligent man."
I am very flattered... I speak as a fool. I avoid a flatterer as I would a plague!
Cunningham
If preaching of the cross is illogical this confirms Galatians 5:11 that the cross is a stumbling block and a scandal and offense.
"How can we exalt common sense! It stems from human beings!" To that I say common sense was created by God just as a mind body and spirit. God gives us this to discern to call that illogical is to call something God meant for God evil. Genesis 50. Why also then does the book of proverbs speak so much of wisdom and that God created it for his glory.
Bell
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness....! And God didn't make us to be unemotional zombies! And God didn't give us common sense to discern, He gave us His Holy Spirit!
Sing F Lau
Sassy Belle @ "And God didn't make us to be unemotional zombies!"
But surely God made man with a rational faculty... and I wonder when people who reject the COMMON SENSE axiom that life must precede the activities of that life are not spiritually blind and common sense tells me that spiritually blind is different from spiritually dead because it is common sense to different a dead man from a blind man
Bell
Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence the same as wealthy people have in not trusting in their wealth. I am glad that I am not rich or intelligent enough to trust in either! Yes, He made us with a... rational faculty but He still tells us to trust in Him. A human being must use what sense He gave us as long as He is not steering one way or another, but I have to be ready to go His way if He sends in a different direction, whether it makes sense to me or not.
Sing F Lau
Not just your soul... sing with your mind ALSO!
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
God doesn't ask rational man made in His image to trust in irrational and nonsensical thing!
"COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER, SAITH THE LORD!"
God Himself supposes that His people have common sense... can't reason with people WITHOUT common sense, e.g those who insist that the condemned can believe in order to be justified by God; the dead can believe in order to get life; salvation is to be offered to the dead; etc...
A pinch of common sense would have saved God's children from so much lies and errors. Common SOUND gets many into troubles.
Page
"Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence" I ain't smert but that is a dumbest thang I have heerd! do ignorant people have a hard time getting past their ignorance? hell, I don't know!
Sing F Lau
"Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence" I ain't smert but that is a dumbest thang I have heerd!
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Only a sassy belle from the hill is capable of such profound statement.
Martin
I would like to see where in the bible it states that the Spiritual gifts were done away with when the last Apostle died. There is nothing perfect in this fallen world, so don't tell me that the cannon of scripture is perfect.
Bell
We must always remember to contend for "the faith" that was once delivered to the Saints, the same faith that saints lost their life for! Lifting up our natural wisdom is not that faith! I also believe that no spiritual gifts were done aw...ay with. The fact that most do not possess & many have never witnessed does not make them done away with. I also am fallible and I want to remain teachable into my old age. God has more for us "old folks" if we're not too proud & self-sufficient to stay a Berean.
Sing F Lau
Hodges @ "My point was that the spiritual gifts DIDN'T cease"
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You have to define first what are the spiritual gifts in your assertion, otherwise you may be talking about different things.
Of course many spiritual gifts continue. Certain specific gifts, REVELATORY in nature, they have ceased, and that's what the author meant. But you didn't read in context, began raving...
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Bell
Although I am not Bro Hedges....I think no Christian would believe that knowledge has vanished away. In fact, knowledge is increased in these last days. Tongues, prophecies, even knowledge will not be needed when the Lord returns for His ...Church & at the resurrection. Love though, will last eternally! The verses (I believe) is speaking of is when we will see Him face to face. Brother, I know for myself through experience that they have not passed away. I try to steer clear from quoting experiences however. I say this is one case when it is GREAT to covet......covet the best gifts...which I believe will be the ones the Lord wants us to have. He wants to equip His Church individually for spiritually warfare corporately. Anyone else....care to reason together?
Sing F Lau
Now Grandma Janet, that is the whole problem. Do you think apostle is speaking of that kind of knowledge?
How could the faculty of knowledge pass away? If the faculty of knowledge passes away, then man will turn in beasts!
How could knowledge... pass away if we are commanded to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?
I have told you before that so many are afflicted with the prevalent disease call 'sound-byte-itis', a disease that cause men to be carried away by the SOUND, instead of SENSE! Looks like you are not spared from this dreadful disease.
Come to my clinic and get a cure for it.
Just what knowledge is Paul speaking, do you know? What is the CONTEXT of that passage? Don't get carry away by sound! That's why so many got carried away by Obama
How were the Apostles and prophets of the infant NT church able to preach Christ so ably from the OT Scriptures alone? Do you know, granny? Tell us the answer, granny!
Bell
Pastor Sing...we also know that it is not speaking of spiritual knowledge ceasing here on earth. We are instructed to grow in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. But when that which is perfect is come (Jesus), we will have the knowled...ge that the angels now have. We will see Him face to face. Prophecies will not be needed then, they will have been fulfilled. Tongues will cease as we will commune directly with Him, face to face. It amazes me that we fallen mankind can have such an undeserved honor bestowed upon us. Sorry Bro....this old Grandma is afflicted with the condition Apostle Paul called "apt to teach". 2 Tim. 2:24
Page
I'll be glad when riddles shall cease!
Sing F Lau
That which is perfect/complete cannot refer to Jesus Christ!
That which is perfect or complete was partial/incomplete at the time of Paul' writing 1 Cor epistle.
It would be madness to attribute incompleteness/partness to Jesus Christ at any ...time!
Also that which is perfect is in the neuter gender. 'Jesus' is in the masculine gender, so also 'heaven'!
Bell
I believe it is speaking of His return, when His kingdom is complete and we reign with Him. Obviously Christ is the only perfect one although His new earth will be perfect too. Perhaps it is speaking of that.
Sing F Lau
Riddles will not cease until the end of time... for which reason this commands remains in force until then:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." "2Ti 2:15.
The gift of knowledge mention is a special revelatory gift for the apostolic church - to enable them to KNOW and UNDERSTAND the OT and preach Christ from it.
Post-apostles church have the NT delivered unto them... the NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT. The special gift cease when the NT is given. In place of that gift is this command, "STUDY... STUDY... STUDY... to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Sing F Lau
Granny, believe what you want! That's your privilege as a granny!
Bell
Without revelation, studying might not help. "Ever learning .....etc" You obviously enjoy studying. Sorry to see that you have shut yourself off to those gifts. Fortunately, the Lord still enlightens and you might see differently in time. I will hush on the subject in case others want to chime in.
Page
OK, I have that which is perfect and it is upon me to proclaim. It is fulfilled in your midst. Paul would be appreciative of this and jealous of our possibilities. if Paul was here he would turn our world upside down and the alliance of evangelical churches would do their best to destroy him.
Sing F Lau
Divine Revelation gives us the Holy Scriptures.
Divine enlightenment gives us understanding of the revealed Scriptures/
Don't mix the two...Common sense distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Martin
If you think the new testament is," that which is perfect", better get out your common sense and examine it. There is no way that those people who developed the cannon of the new testament was perfect in their thought and translations of th...e documents that they studied with their infallible minds. Come on Sing, use your good COMMON SENSE. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE INFALLIBLE, THAT THEY WERE PERFECTLY GUIDED BY GOD TO DO WHAT THEY DID. Talk about a stretch from common sense to foolishness. What a gift!
Sing F Lau
What make you think that I think the the new testament is, " that which is perfect." I didn't write in Chinese or Melayu, did I?
Sing F Lau
Joe charged that the cessationists are eliminating 3 chapters out of the new testament.
Let me called you a BLATANT LIAR, and this remains unless you can prove that your statement is true.
I, as a cessationist, say that the three revelatory gifts in 1 Cor 13:8 have passed away.
So, reload your hot-air gun and aim at the target correctly, otherwise, please hold your peace. I don't tolerate raving nor ranting here.
Martin
Sing, I get the indication from the following which is a part of a above post you made: Post-apostles church have the NT delivered unto them... the NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT. The special gift cease when the NT is given. In place of that gift is this command, "STUDY... STUDY... STUDY... to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. It look like in english this means that you equate the NT with that which is perfect and now we no longer need the gifts.
Martin
Sing, I love your post and have learned a great deal from you. Hang in there and keep on making me think. You do not in any way offend me, on the contrary, I am encouraged by you. You are kind of blunt and I like that.
Bell
Pastor, you assume that the revelatory gifts were given to the Apostolic church to reveal Christ in the Old Testament. Christ walked with the Apostles, they learned from him directly, yet it required Paul who wrote much of the New Testament to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ". And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gifts were done away with. Do you not know that the Holy Spirit is meant to lead us and guide us in all truths. He is meant to be our "helper". My all means STUDY, study deeply but do I what I do and ask Him to be my teacher, reveal His truths to me. Reveal to me what I am not understanding. One hour of study my helper can do what a year of study time alone cannot do.
Sing F Lau
Hodge, I said you are raving and ranting... not the Scriptures. You are raving and ranting when you accused the cessationists for eliminating 3 chapters from the NT. If you don't prove that charge, then you are a BLATANT LIAR...
Sing F Lau
"it look like in english this means that you equate the NT with that which is perfect and now we no longer need the gifts."
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In English and in CONTEXT it means that when the revelation of Scriptures was completed, those REVELATORY GIFTS ceased. Common sense, isn't it... those revelatory gifts became redundant... when they have the completed Scriptures, and when there was no more to be revealed.
Bell
OH....I see what Pastor Sing is saying...cessationists are not eliminating them, merely that they have passed away! Gone either way as I see it! I don't think I would call the Bro. a liar for not seeing the difference.
Sing F Lau
Christ walked with the Apostles, they learned from him directly, yet it required Paul who wrote much of the New Testament to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ". And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gift...s were done away with.
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Did Apostle Paul write to help the other Apostles?
You asked, "And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gifts were done away with?"
When Apostle Paul was writing, the revelatory gifts were still operating in the apostolic church. The doing away of those revelatory gifts was FUTURE with respect to the apostolic church, but a PAST fact with respect to us.
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Note the future tense.
'Perfect' is contrasted with 'in part', 'That which in part' and 'that which is perfect' refer to the ONE SAME THING... at the time of Paul's writing, it was in part (incomplete), but was progressing towards completion.
Bell
No Paul didn't write to Peter...he withstood him to his face because he was to be blamed! And yes, now we see in part, we see through a glass darkly. Of course you know the rest of what Granny believes! We are still progressing towards completion, when this fallen world is gone and we reign with Him.
Sing F Lau
Granny, to say that the revelatory gifts - HAVE FAILED, CEASED, VANISHED AWAY - is NOT THE SAME as eliminating 3 chapters from the NT. Hodges made a serious accusation and he won't admit it! So, he remains a LIAR.
Granny , you wrote, "...Paul who wrote much of the New Testamen...t to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ"." That's is a FICTION, a FABLE.
Bell
Paul understood grace and he understood it as it applied to the gentiles. Brother, have your eyes or spirit never witnessed anything to prove to you otherwise?
Sing F Lau
No granny. I am just a little ignorant gentile shown abundant mercy by our Lord Jesus Christ. I am mighty thankful that Paul was an apostle to the gentile. And here ends this thread.
Bell
I meant have you never witnessed anything to prove otherwise that the 3 gifts have not ceased.
Sing F Lau
You asking me to trust in human experiences over the PLAIN revealed word of God?????????????????????????????????????????????
What use or value is my experiences or witnesses in comparison to the Scriptures?
Granny, think of a very simple point. IF apostle Paul meant that those revelatory gift SHALL FAIL, CEASE and VANISH AWAY at the end of the gospel age, ISN'T that a very redundant and obvious??? Wouldn't the same happen to all the other gifts???
Then why did Paul single out only those three revelatory gifts, and declare that those REVELATORY gifts SHALL FAIL, CEASE and VANISH AWAY??? Doesn't that tell us something?
Please, make sure that our interpretation of Paul's words don't end up making Pauls appear as a irrational and inconsistent idiot!!!
Bell
Have you never heard a spoken prophecy that came to pass. Or witnessed tongues and interpretation that sang the praises of our Lord ....equal possibly to when the angels sang on high! Do not trust human common sense but that is why we hav...e been given His Holy Spirit, & He is a discerning Spirit! Paul makes it obvious that those will not be needed when we are dwelling with the Master. He compares this world to being a child but the next life to being a mature man and knowing fully.
Sing F Lau
Any prophecy that has anything to do with the revelatory gift of prophecy in 1 Cor 13:8 COMES TOO LATE... the revelation of God was completed TOO LONG AGO.
So, you and I are talking about quite different things!
Thanks for the conversations.
Have a good day granny.
Page
I was raised Pentecostal so I have been there done that, but in all my upbringing I never really saw anyone submitting their gifts (one possible exception) to allow revered and learned men approve and give their amen to what had been prophesied. Always in everything the scriptures have to be predominant and tested by them.
That which is first is natural, common, and then the spiritual. The move of the Spirit never takes the place over the common rendering of scripture. If a woman who is very "spiritual" will not yield to men who are learned but not "spiritual" she has a problem and the church has a problem. She must ask her husband at home about these things and HAS to submit to revered MEN who judge her by the common rendering of scripture.
Sing F Lau
Hodges, when men make ignorant statements, the honors is yours to refute them by sound logical arguments... not RAVING and RANTING. I permit the former here, but not the latter. So, if you cannot abide by that simple rule, don't hang around. Get that?
Sing F Lau
Hodges, you want love?
Here it is real love: get it into the woolly head!
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
