Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Sunday, May 3, 2020

One Baptism and PB Baptism

Apollos, born at Alexandria,
an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures


Initially posted here:

A mighty man greatly helped by one ordinary couple, and increased in his usefulness.

Acts 18:
24 ¶ And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Lessons:
1. Even great men like Apollos, are deficient in some doctrine and has a need to learn!
2. Even ordinary folks can teach great men some truth!
3. Humility to learn the truth is blessed with increases in one's usefulness!

Caution:
- don't assume men with DD or Th.D got things all figured out. Not a few are self-conceited. Apollos didn't and wasn't.
- don't be intimidated by their august title and letters after their names. They, if humble like Apollos can learn a few things from commoners like Priscilla and Aquila who were taught by the Apostle Paul. Few have such humility and teachable spirit.

The Lord had abundant mercy on me, granting me much grace to see and admit the many contradictions and fictions in the things I was taught and believe as a reformed baptist for nearly 20 years

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Manuel R Briva
Hi Bro. Sing F Lau, may I simply ask how would you identify yourself now if not Reformed Baptist? Asking in goodwill.

Sing
I'm fine with the label old school baptist.
I hope it is not copyrighted. Lol.

Manuel R Briva
Thx. What I understand is that Old Baptists has been adhering to Spirit Regeneration since their existence, they did not come out from the belief of gospel regeneration. Just a friendly observation though unsolicited one. Tnx for the reply.

[I knew where this conversation is leading; the same had taken place not a few times with some other Filipino PB converts; they are zealous in wanting me to wear the PB label.]


Sing
Thanks for your friendly observation!
So, what should a man who comes out from the belief of gospel regeneration call himself? What do you suggest?

Not a few have harassed me to get baptized by a Primitive Baptist before I can call myself an old school baptist. I have been reminded that the old school baptist label has been "copyrighted," and I have no right to use it unless I'm baptized by the Primitive Baptist and wear their label. You have said the same, obliquely. Thank you. I often see that PB converts are more PB than those that converted them!

When the apostles were cured of their serious errors on the nature of the kingdom of Christ, and grasped the right understanding, what happened to them? When Apostle Peter discovered a momentous truth in Acts 10 (v34ff), did he come out of a very serious error? And what then?
Were they rebaptized, and wear a new label? I speak as a fool.

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing, the issue, I think you know, is not as much understanding doctrine, but acknowledging the perpetuity of ordination and authority to Baptize, you are of course welcome to maintain your position, it won't change your eternal destiny, but I do think it hinders fellowship with the body of folks through whom many of the men today have learned their doctrine from, men like Ben Mott and Conrad Jarrel were Primitive Baptists before they set out on their own, they have in turn required the rebaptism and re-ordination of even their converts after having left the PB's. You also know that to be true of the Church at Greenville. The issue is more about fellowship and authority than doctrine though the doctrine of immediate Holy Spirit regeneration is unique to the Old School Baptists for a good reason.

Manuel R Briva
Hi Bro. Sing F Lau, I can't add to your scholarly knowledge of biblical truth but I may just share to you my journey from four other sorts of baptists until I find peace and fully comforted having satisfied my conscience and the consciences of those who had been adhering to the same body of faith that I have embraced. There are some truths that can be mentally accepted, and there are some truths that need practical obedience after having been convinced by it to attain consistency and satisfaction.

Manuel R Briva
I may recommend also some books and article for your readings, and perusal.

Manuel R Briva
Of course, you possess the right to Christian Liberty and remain as you are without rebaptism, but unknowingly treading a path that others have trodden. Consistency of truth is everyone's difficult task. It takes patience to know things that we need to know.

Manuel R Briva
Sorry for the harassment as you "felt" it from fellow PBs, but I'm sure there are some who took patience in replying to you.

Sing
Seriously Manuel, by your initial question, I ALREADY knew where you are heading. I have been through it with not a few very zealous PBs, some of them your fellow countrymen. So, thank you very much. Try again some other time. Maybe the Lord will change my mind on the matter.

Manuel R Briva
I can briefly reply to your inquiry here and so willing to walk with you side by side for some prerequisite and leading truths to arrive in your needed inquiry. For the meantime, you may search & read History of Alien Immersion and Valid Baptism by John Harvey Grime, his accounts on the Old Baptists requiring rebaptism will shed light much. Inquiries about rebaptism and reordinations from History or Minutes of Philadelphia Association 1707-1807.

Sing
What was my inquiry?

Manuel R Briva
Replying to your previous question regarding what would I call for that conversion from gospel reg. to spirit regeneration without rebaptism, it is the same as what the "restorationist" movement have trodden. Some Reformed Baptists here call that Neo Calvinism. I may kindly call that "Reformed Reformationism" objectively speaking. Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid which Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone and the apostles as the cornerstone. That foundation can't be repeated, nor modified, nor imitated. You may speak English, but you can't consistently claim you're an American unless you submit in the legal process.

Sing
Give me a name that will suit you, I will be fine with it.

Manuel R Briva
About Peter's conversion, as I understand, conversion can be classified as Conversion from, Conversion Unto, Conversion Through. Ex. Conversion from- M. Luther was converted from the works salvation of the catholic as he believed salvation by faith but he was never converted unto the bare essential truths as salvation by grace and biblical baptism. He would have been converted unto if he humbly accepted grace salvation and submitted to biblical baptism. Peter was converted from Judaism and was converted unto Christianity when he submitted to John's baptism. Conversion through is an ongoing

Manuel R Briva
… ongoing enlightenment of truths after having converted from error to bare essential truths and have undergone biblical beginnings or foundation such as baptism, ordination, constitution. Peter has gone over to the first 2nd conversion, he was being converted through as you referred to the above so no need repeat rebaptism.

Sing
That's an interesting observation... Peter's conversion FROM Judaism took MANY years! So, when he was a little converted from Judaism, and was baptized by John the Baptist, did his baptism count?
According to your own argument, it does not count, invalid. Am I correct?

Manuel R Briva
As I have told you previously, there are some foundational truths that need to be complied with to attain consistency with your profession, rebaptism is one of them. Some truths need to know, such as church perpetuity, Regulative Principle, and Biblical Foundation of the Lord's Church, and last Biblical Pattern of Church Beginnings. It takes patience to understand. I'm willing to share them if asked. Thanks.

Sing
Heard them all before many times.
Did the Apostles cross all the t's and dot all the i's of foundational truths you laid down above? (Are they not all arbitrary? Were the converts on the day of Pentecost aware of the foundational truth you have listed?)

Manuel R Briva
You have argued much with excellence. If you're satisfied with what you are then no need to change but I would kindly say that you can't escape Reformed Baptist baptism as they disown you. Baptism reflects the kind of gospel profession you believed, it is also a foundational ordinance that enables you to enjoy the rest of the truths ordinance. Catholic baptism means the Catholic faith and profession.

(Sir, you made assertions; I asked questions about your assertions. You choose not to answer the questions, and went off a tangent!)

Manuel R Briva
Thanks for the exchange Brother Sing F Lau.

Sing
John the Baptist baptized the Apostles and many others.
I hope you consider him a qualified baptizer even though he may not have the FOUNDATION TRUTHS laid down by you - that is, church perpetuity, Regulative Principle, and Biblical Foundation of the Lord's Church, and last Biblical Pattern of Church, Beginnings, etc. - all wrapped up.

Sing
@ "You have argued much with excellence."
No, I have not started to argue yet.
I was only comparing your points with the Scriptures and see how they look like.

Manuel R Briva
Other group or denomination tried to adopt some truths apart from biblical foundation- rebaptiam, reordination, reconstitution but found themselves to "other foundation. Some paedobaptist were converted to adult baptism and tried to correct it and called themselves Regular Baptists, those who refuse to be rebaptised came out to be Regular Baptists. John Smyth baptized his companion, then he was baptized by him so it was called "sebaptism"

Sing
I have heard all those scholarly arguments from your countrymen and from some very smart Americans. I guess I'm not smart enough to be convinced, NOT yet.

Sing
I APOLOGISE for being a big thorn in the eyes of PBs like yourself, as well as the RBs and many others besides.
I do commend you for your brotherly kindness in the effort to convert me to PBism. Most others have given me up as a hopeless case.

Sing
Brother Manuel, a hearty thank you for the exchanges.
You are a kind brother.

Manuel R Briva
No need for apology my friend. You're not being a big thorn to anyone outside of you and yours for standing for your position. If can ever can hurt anyone, it is your own conscience and those who hear you or under your ministry... oh including the next generation under you. If rebaptism is true, God has placed you in that great capacity to lead them; the next generation after them. If you fail to see its importance then you have closed that door for temporal saving of them and the comfort of their consciences... and you'll end up laying your own foundation.

Manuel R Briva
You are getting friendlier than before, appreciate you much.

Sing
Thanks for your persistence. I trust I know my own conscience enough before God without you trying to insinuate otherwise.
Thanks for your zeal and concern. You have just accused me of laying my own foundation and see it as your duty to dig it up. God bless you, Manuel. That's probably the view of every PB about the matter but you alone are bold enough saying it out loud. I heard it loud and clear.

Manuel R Briva
No intention to hurt my friend. I commend you for your sincerity and kind chatting with me. Level up for such friendship with you.
Hoping for the time that you will be ready to really sit down and hear from an Old Baptist instead of arguing. Hear them attentively and be open. You cannot find a real treasure by blowing up the ground. Be where they are and listen to why they believed such. Remember, you are a spearheader to your next generation. I don't normally engage in long chatting. But it's my joy to do it with you. God bless.

Sing
I'm no snowflake, so hurting is a non-issue.
I don't either. Been through it so many times. So save your effort. Invest it with some of your countrymen. Thanks.