https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10212758559934333
November 23, 2018
Luther's famous "sola fidei" is not
of grace; it is of work.
On this point - "If grace depends on our
cooperation then it is no longer grace" - I do agree with Martin Luther.
But how does Luther's notorious sola fidei -
"justification by faith alone" (i.e. upon believing, a man is
justified by God) - stand in the light of his own statement?
Is grace still grace when it requires the cooperation of preachers to aid the Spirit of God in His work of regeneration? (take note: gospel regenerationists.)
Is grace still grace when it requires the cooperation of sinners to hear, understand, and believe the gospel? (take note: sola fideists.)
Is grace still grace when it requires the
cooperation of a life of faith and holiness for one to enter heaven?
Have you understood salvation by grace alone?
Many haven't even though they babble the
sound all the time.
Do you know why?
They are unable and/or unwilling to
distinguish the MONERGISTIC eternal salvation that is freely bestowed upon
those dead in trespasses and sins, and the SYNERGISTIC temporal salvation
through the obedience of God's children to His will. (If you don't know the
difference between the two, please inquire.)
Failing to rightly divide the two, even the
most revered reformed theologians are muddled. Luther is one example.
Put simply by way of illustration - it is the
difference between the life given to you (being conceived and born of your
parents), and the life you have to make for yourself as a child of your
parents. In the former, you were brought into BEING; in the latter, you labour
to make a life for yourself in obedience to your parents.
P/s: To preempt sincere people foaming foolish accusations, let me assure you that the preaching ministry is necessary for the WELL-BEING of God's children; believing the gospel of Jesus Christ is necessary for the WELL-BEING of God's children; a life of faith and holiness is necessary for the WELL-BEING and usefulness of God children in this present age.
Sing F Lau
Romans 11:6 KJV
And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more
grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Romans 3:24 KJV
"Being justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
John 6 KJ V
28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we
do, that we might work the works of God?
29 ¶Jesus answered and said unto them, This
is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Believing in the gospel is a work God
requires of His children.
Justification by faith (man's act of
believing) is justification by works. It repudiates "justified freely by
His grace."
James
Either Christ Jesus did it all by paying for
our sins, or He didn't. It can not be free and still require our payment.
Sing F Lau
James, they also insist Christ did it all;
they don't dispute that. They ALSO insist on human cooperation in order to make
effectual what Christ has done.
Ann
They differ from us on what Christ came here
TO do. They believe that his job was to make a way for us to be saved and that
he did that by dying on the cross. They believe that His death and resurrection
gave us the ability to choose him.
I doubt if very many of his followers know that Luther said that about grace not requiring our cooperation.
Kelvin Tan
Ann, Romans 4:3 stated that
"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
That is all we needed to
"cooperate", in order to receive the gift of righteousness.
Sing F Lau
Kelvin, that passage refers to the event in
Gen 15.
May I ask, in Gen 12-14, i.e. prior to that
event, was Abraham a justified man, or was he a man still in his native state of
sin and condemnation; did Abraham have righteousness in Gen 12-14?
What was counted to him for righteousness?
What does "counted to him for
righteousness" mean?
Did Abraham receive that gift of
righteousness, as you assert, or was Paul saying something else?
In your opinion, can a man whom God has not
given "the gift of righteousness" able to believe?
If you can address these questions, your time here is not wasted.
Ann
Kelvin Tan But he believed what God told him.
He already believed IN God, which is a different thing. I also contend that
"...and it was counted unto him for righteousness." as God seeing his
belief as a righteous act. It isn't the righteousness imputed unto us through
the propitiation of Christ.
Kelvin Tan
Ann: You could be correct of
course.
But if you ask me, I think this obsession
with whether Man can believe by hearing someone preach, or must God elect him
first, before he can believe, we are like fishes trying to debate on what is
water. As human beings who live in the time dimension, we might never fully
understand which one comes first.
So long as we continue to preach the ministry of reconciliation to every non-Christian as in Romans 10:14, let us leave it to God to handle such issues. 🤗
Kelvin Tan
Sing F Lau: May I ask, in Gen 12-14, i.e.
prior to that event, was Abraham a justified man, or was he a man still in his
native state of sin and condemnation; did Abraham have righteousness in Gen
12-14?
======
With regards to the example you gave, as I
have said to Ann, as human beings who live in the time dimension, we might
never fully understand which one comes first.
So long as we continue to preach the ministry
of reconciliation to every non-Christian, let us leave it to God to handle such
issues. 🤗
Sing F Lau
The Scriptures say God freely justifies
condemned sinners by His grace, i.e. without man's cooperation.
But Kelvin insists that God justifies - gives
the gift of righteousness - to those who cooperate by their believing; who do you think I should believe?
Let God be true but every man (who contradicts God) a liar.
Ann
Kelvin Tan: I have no problem with preaching
to whomever will listen but the important thing is whether you preach to them
that they must go about entreating people to believe in order to avoid
damnation. It also denies the glory of God, to preach mankind that is stronger
than he is in these matters. To God be the glory.
Kelvin Tan
Ann: 2 Cor 5:18-21 is a good
guide from the Apostle Paul, how we should preach the message of
reconciliation.
18 All this is from God, who through Christ
reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that
is, in Christ God was reconciling[b] the world to himself, not counting their
trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We
implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made
him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness
of God.
Whether non-believers are in the end saved because of them listening to our preaching, or is it because God has elected them to be saved, is to me secondary. 🤗
Sing F Lau
Quoting Scriptures is easy, giving its sense
is not.
It is those whom God has reconciled that are
called to believe the truth of what God has done in Jesus Christ to reconcile
them; when they believe the truth of their reconciliation by God's free grace
(i.e. WITHOUT their cooperation!) that they are experientially reconciled to
God in Christ.
Christ's ambassador represents Him to His
redeemed people.
Kelvin Tan
Ok ok, you have said a mouthful, but like
what I have said,
"Whether non-believers are in the end
saved because of them listening to our preaching, or is it because God has
elected them to be saved, is to me secondary. 🤗"
Why confuse Christians from other denominations that this election issue matters? Do you really think the Christians in your church, or any church, in particular, care about this issue as much as you?
Sing F Lau
It is probably you who don't care because it
goes against your belief. The problem is on your shoulder.
All spiritual blessings in Christ flow
from that fountain.
Sorry, this doctrine irks you so much.
Ann
Pastor Sing, you have opened the eyes of this
language-obsessed Christian regarding this aspect of the belief in Sovereign
Grace. People who do what they believe is the work God desires of them refer to
it as "God's work". I believe now that there is a good chance this
expression was brought about by the need to believe that "the works of
God" is work done FOR God. My husband and I never refer to his job as
doing the work of Toyota. I will have to look into this.
Sing F Lau
Ann: Those inquiring Jews were desirous to obey
God, to do the works (PLURAL) of God, the works God requires of them.
Christ's understood their inquiry, and focus
their attention on the CHIEFTEST work God requires of them - believe on the
Messiah whom He has sent. Get the first thing first - "This is my beloved
Son, be hearing Him."
In His reply, Christ himself affirmed that believing in Him is a work that God requires them to perform.
Sing F Lau
Romans 4:3 stated that "Abraham believed
God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."
That is all we needed to
"cooperate", in order to receive the gift of righteousness.
========
A bible student is free to make any statement
he wishes.
But if his statement is shown to contradict
Scriptures and plain facts and common sense, don't be a copout and says let God
deal with the issues. He who makes the false statement must deal with his
falsehood, not God.
Cindy Harlin
And it will remain that way until the Lord
returns .. nothing is going to change the fact that Jesus shed His blood for
the sins of those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. A miracle
that any one of us was one of His chosen. Love
Cindy Harlin
Jesus, and shall it ever be,
A mortal man, ashamed of Thee?
Ashamed of Thee, whom angels praise,
Whose glories shine through endless days?
Cindy Harlin
If they truly knew Him they would not be
anything but in awe of His wonderful glory .. love and power and including them
in that love.
Kelvin Tan
Our duty as Christians is to preach the
gospel of grace given to the Apostle Paul, to the Gentiles.
As long as Christians of all denominations
agree to that duty, I personally don't understand the obsession with this
election concept. Whether is it our preaching that cause them to believe, or
whether God has already elected them to believe our preaching, does it really
matter? 😅
Sing F Lau
You may hate or deny the election, and grind your
axe here. This thread didn't start with the election, you raise it because it runs
against your beliefs.
Just because there is the election, there is a
gospel, and the reason, to preach.
You may wish to discount election, Apostle
Paul didn't. You may want to say something that you don't like as something
secondary while the Apostle Paul stated it as foundational.
You are just too woolly.
It does matter whether you have a gospel to preach, doesn't it?
Kelvin Tan
I am trying to understand, out of pure
curiosity and not because of any axe to grind, why every other post you put
regarding doctrine, is about this election concept.
Honestly, I would like to know for my own understanding, why is this concept so critical to the Christian faith? Will it change anything of significance to us growing in the Lord?
Ann
Kelvin, it is important. My niece's husband
was raised in a church whose doctrine was based on fear. Fear was the tool to
induce people to believe, in order that they might avoid eternal damnation.
This man was not a rebellious teen. He strove to follow his parents' moral,
Christian example and also to spend his youth preparing for a productive and
happy adulthood.
However, over time, the fear just quit
motivating him. He grew fatigued of the stress. And once that happened, the
rebellion started to grow. He now has rejected Christianity and is embracing
all manner of superstition and idolatry. He has dragged my niece and their
daughters down this road with him, as she loves him and wants to please him,
and it is more fun chasing self-loving 'enlightenment' than striving to please
the Lord by dying to yourself for Him.
No, not all gospel regeneration believing
churches hold Hell over their members' heads at every turn. But, all of them
believe the Great Commission is to bring your friends, acquaintances and loved
ones to Christ for their eternal life. Their churches jump through hoops and
twist themselves every which way to drag or attract people in the doors to fill
the pews and be saved. Mostly, they do this by doing what attracts people and
money, to attract and save more people. It is a vicious circle. Do we want
members? Yes, of course, but we want people who are there to forget themselves
for an hour and a half while they praise and worship God. If that isn't why
they are there, it defeats the purpose.
So yes, it matters. It matters that we don't
claim credit for God's work. It matters that we don't alienate people by
telling them they are going to Hell because they didn't do what God wants them
to. The doctrine of election keeps us in the proper hierarchy with God to be
properly thankful for His saving love and covenant of grace.
Ann
As far as every other post, maybe because it
is the main thing he has to say that isn't already being said all over the
internet, ad nauseum.
Maybe. I'm not trying to speak for the
pastor.
Kelvin Tan
Ann, Appreciate your sharing. I
certainly agree that a number of churches emphasize so much about the Great
Commission and, as a result, gave new Christians in their churches the
impression that they are saved solely to bring more non Christians in.
I personally believe that the GC was only for
Jews to preach to Jews, and ever since the Jews rejected Stephen in Acts, the
dispensation has now changed and we are in the age of grace. Under the current
dispensation, we Gentiles are no longer under the GC but under what Paul would
deem as "the ministry of reconciliation" in 2 Corinthians 5:11-21.
The other problem I see with the doctrine of
"election", I actually prefer to call it limited atonement, is with
regards to healing and other blessings that came from the finished work of
Christ. If you believe that you are saved regardless of what you do, since God
has elected you, what about when you are sick and trying to believe for divine
healing?
Can you understand what I am trying to say? I
can imagine if a Christian will say, if God has saved me because he elected me
to be saved, if I am currently not healed of this physical condition despite
praying, it means that God has elected that I continue to suffer from this
infirmity. There is thus no need for me to believe in faith that "by his
stripes I am healed".
To sum it up, can I conclude that if someone
truly believe in election, he is unlikely to believe that divine healing is a
matter of claiming it by faith?
Furthermore, verses like Deuteronomy 30:19 becomes some kind of cosmic joke that God plays on us, if its all about election. Why ask us to choose life instead of death, if he already elected our choice anyway? 🤗
Kelvin Tan
Ann My personal opinion of Sing
is that he is very agitated whenever people disagree with him. 😅
Interestingly, when I asked whether his
church is a reformed Baptist church since they are well known for subscribing
to the concept of limited atonement, he disagrees rather emotionally too.
Sing F Lau
First, this post did not mention the election; you raise it to grind your grudge against this biblical doctrine - to
you, it is just a concept and a secondary one.
You're particularly irked by this biblical doctrine that lies at the foundation of the gospel. You imagine there is a gospel without election.
Kelvin Tan
Is grace still grace when it requires the
cooperation of preachers to aid the Spirit of God in His work of regeneration? (take note: gospel regenerationists.)
Is grace still grace when it requires the cooperation of sinners to hear, understand, and believe the gospel? (take note: sola fideists.)
Kelvin Tan
That was what you said 🤗
[sing: And do you understand what they mean? Did you bother to ask?]
Sing F Lau
Eph 1: 3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:
God's election of His people stands at the
head of all their spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ.
What is at the head and foundation, many
foolishly reject and denounce, others give lip service and count as secondary
and foolishly think election and the gospel are contradictory.
How Christians have departed from the faith once delivered to the saints.
Zhao Liang Wei
You must define what righteousness (Tsedaqah)
means is the hebrew context of the word before discussing.
Kelvin Tan
Honestly, I would like to know for my own
understanding, why is this concept so critical to the Christian faith? Will it
change anything of significance to us growing in the Lord?
===
You want to answer this, Sing?
Sing F Lau
Growing in the Lord includes knowing and
understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why is it so critical to the Christian faith?
It is at the heart of it. Election is the fountain from which all the blessings
in the heavenly places in Christ flows.
To remain ignorant of the faith once delivered to the saints is to remain stunted.
Kelvin Tan
Fair enough, if you believe that
"Election is the fountain from which all the blessings in the heavenly
places in Christ flows", are you also believing that, if a Christian
choose not to believe in that, he will get less blessings from God?
Any concrete examples of those blessings that will be denied to him?
Cindy Harlin
Sing F Lau, Answer not a fool according to his
folly ...
Sing F Lau
Thou art my wise Sister.
I was hoping a fool will not remain a fool.
Went through one round before.
Sing F Lau
Any concrete examples of those blessings that
will be denied to him?
-------------
A self-centred and self- serving fool asks
such a question. It is not about being submitted to God's revealed truth but
his own blessings. Believing rightly is secondary, what blessings he can obtain
is primary.
Kelvin Tan
I am offering you a chance to exemplify your
point that "Election is the fountain from which all the blessings in the
heavenly places in Christ flows". I always believe a clear explanation
requires examples.
But it's okay, if you choose not to, I understand. Cheers
Sing F Lau
I repost a comment from above:
Eph 1:3¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before
the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
him in love:
-------------
God's election of His people stands at the
head of all their spiritual blessings in the heavenly places in Christ.
What is at the head and foundation, many
foolishly reject and denounce, others give lip service and count it as
secondary and foolishly think election and the gospel are contradictory.
How Christians have departed from the faith
once delivered to the saints!
When a Christian chooses not to acknowledge
that all his spiritual blessings in Christ flow out of his election by God - as
plainly stated by the Apostle of Christ - he is unlikely to see if a 1000
examples are set before him.
Kelvin Tan
Sing F Lau, Interesting interpretation of Paul
there. As a Christian, I acknowledged that all of my blessings came because I
am in Christ Jesus.
I didn't realized I also have to believe in election for that to happen as well. Thanks for sharing your interpretation of this passage.
Sing F Lau
No, I didn't say you have to believe in
election for that to happen. I said that is what the Apostle Paul taught. Such
blessings have been freely bestowed by God's grace WITHOUT your believing and
DESPITE your shameless unbelief.
Without your believing in your parents as
your progenitor and despite your unbelief, the blessings have been bestowed.
Fool is a mild term to describe such an impudent man.
Kelvin Tan
Oops, sorry that you edited out this part
"When a Christian chooses not to acknowledge that all his spiritual
blessings in Christ flow out of his election by God, he is unlikely able to see
much."
I was actually referring to this point you
made, but I see you took that out. Nevertheless, cheers and God bless. 🤗
Sing F Lau
It is still there.
The Scriptures warn there are FOOLS in the
church - doing things and believing doctrines befitting FOOLS, yet oblivious of
their folly. Tragic isn't it.
Ecclesiastes 5:1 KJV — Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
