https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1468248861685
November 14, 2010
In The Cause of God Gill clearly stresses the Christian duty, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to call and command sinners to repent.
aLloyd
All men are naturally bound to repent, argues
Gill, because they have naturally broken the law. Commanding them to repent is
putting them under the curse of the law which they have broken in their natural
state. To Gill, this is a law-ordained need for repentance in the legal sense.
What man has broken, he has a duty to mend. This does not mean, however, that
man can mend what he has broken and obtain legal righteousness, but he is still
a debtor to the law for having broken it. The law forces its demands on every one because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
aLloyd
Pastor Sing do you agree with Gill on the
above statements. If so what you have been telling me is much more palatable. 🙂
Sing F Lau
aLloyd, thanks for pointing out Gill's teaching
above. I completely agree with what Gill said above. But it is likely that you don't quite
understand him yet. Be patient and let me explain.
Please note carefully that Gill is speaking
of all men as the creatures of God under the covenant of creation. Under the
covenant of creation, every creature is under the moral government of God, this obligates them to obey the law of God for them as God's creatures.
As God's creatures who have broken the law of
God, it is the duty of every man to repent and turn from their sins. No man has
any right to remain in sin.
You MAY, and very MANY have mistaken what
Gill said above as addressing ALL MEN to believe in Jesus Christ. Gill did no
such thing... because Gill was sound-minded enough to know that such NONSENSE
is plainly contradictory to God's revealed will. It is only God's redeemed who
are under obligation to believe the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior because
that is the truth for them!
The non-elect has NO DUTY to repent and
believe the Lord Jesus Christ... That would tantamount to God demanding a man
to believe a LIE! The thrice-holy and righteous God NEVER requires any man to
believe a LIE!
The distinction - God dealing with His creatures
under the covenant of creation, and God dealing with His redeemed under the
covenant of grace - is the ESSENCE of sound theology.
Many new school Calvinists, while mocking and bullying the woolly-minded Arminians cousins, are themselves no less woolly.
aLloyd
When is righteousness imparted or
imputed (probably better) to the believer if justification and regeneration is
already operating in a man from eternity pas
Sing F Lau
aLloyd, I do get cross when people are not
listening, and say weird things even though things have been stated
so clearly so many times.
Do you ever think when you make a statement and
ask a question?
Where did you get the idea that
"justification and regeneration is already operating in a man from
eternity past"?
Let me state again in the plainest manner
about the subject you inquired above.
In eternity past, a man did not exist yet, so
how could justification and regeneration be already operating in a man?
Concerning justification, there are several distinct aspects. Please take careful note... I don't want to repeat it again! May our Lord grant your understanding of this most amazing truth... There are 5 distinct aspects spoken of in the Scriptures:
1. JUSTIFICATION DECREED in eternity past for
ALL the elect. Some people refer to this as eternal justification, i.e. justification was already decreed for the elect in eternity.
2. JUSTIFICATION ACCOMPLISHED for all elect
at the cross. This is when righteousness is LEGALLY IMPUTED to all elect.
- Legal condemnation came upon all
represented by Adam when his original sin was legally imputed to all his posterity.
- This is legal justification by the blood of Christ, by the righteousness of Christ, by the faith of Christ (i.e. Christ's faithfulness in rendering perfect obedience to all the holy and righteous laws of God.)
3. JUSTIFICATION APPLIED at the effectual call of
each individual elect to eternal life and salvation. This is justification by the free grace of God.
- This is when righteousness is APPLIED or IMPARTED to an elect personally at his effectual call to grace and salvation.
- This is when justification and regeneration
became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY.
- Justification and regeneration became
OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY when redemption is applied to him at God's
approved and accepted time, by His sovereign and free grace, WITHOUT any
man's help or cooperation.
4. JUSTIFICATION EXPERIENCED by the faith of each
believing child of God through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
- Faith cometh by hearing; saving faith (faith as fruit and effect of the salvation freely bestowed) is
received and rests in Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.
- Abraham experienced this in Gen 15:1-6. His
justification BY faith took place in Gen 15:1-6.
- Justification was applied to Abraham when
he was still in Ur, Gen 11. His justification by God's free grace took place in
Ur, Gen 11. His practical/experiential justification took place in Gen 15:1-6.
5. JUSTIFICATION VINDICATED at THE
glorification of all the elect. On the great day of judgment, there will be a
public vindication of all the justified.
Please stick to what I have written above and make sure you understand them before moving to some other things. If you
have any questions, please ask but ask sensible things please, or else your
sheep may get cross!
Now please answer your own question: when is
righteousness imparted or imputed (probably better) to an elect?
(I change your 'a believer' to an elect...
because 'a believer' ALREADY has righteousness imputed to him... otherwise, he
can't possibly be a believer!)
And please note very carefully that there is a
VAST difference between these two words, IMPUTED and IMPARTED. Please check a
good dictionary and tell me the difference.
Thank you.
Sing F Lau
Richie, please explain your statement 'What a great difference would the world suffer if John Gill had never spoken?"
[one Richie made comments and then erased them...!]
I am cracking my head trying to understand. Thanks.
aLloyd
I realize there is a difference between
imparted and imputed, I just couldn't remember which was applicable. Sorry, you seemed to be saying in earlier posts that you are already regenerated and
justified before believing? but now you say at the cross we are justified
through Christ's sacrifice? Is that correct?
Sing F Lau
Richie, I appreciate your conviction. It
would be so much easier if everyone was of the same mind.
For which reason Apostle Paul said,
"20 And unto the Jews I became as a
Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the
law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without
law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might
gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might
gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might, by all means, save
some."
Sing F Lau
Richie, I will lend you a pair of 'tweezers' to
remove the splinters! <lol> Getting splinters is all part of the good
work of saving some of God's dear children from the errors of their ways. The
little discomfort is all worth it!
James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the
truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the
sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a
multitude of sins.
A coat of mail would help but would be rather bulky!
Sing F Lau
aLloyd@ "You seemed to be saying in
earlier posts that you are already regenerated and justified before believing?
but now you say at the cross we are justified through Christ's sacrifice? Is
that correct?"
=========
I repeat what I have said before. You read it
carefully, understand it, and tell me the answer to your question.
3. JUSTIFICATION APPLIED at the effectual call of
each individual elect to eternal life and salvation.
- This is when righteousness is APPLIED or IMPARTED to an elect personally at the effectual call to grace and salvation.
- This is when justification and regeneration
became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY.
- Justification and regeneration became
OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY when redemption is applied to him at God's
approved and accepted time... by His sovereign and free grace, WITHOUT any
man's help or cooperation.
4. JUSTIFICATION EXPERIENCED by the faith of each
believing child of God through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
- Faith cometh by hearing... saving faith is
receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.
- Abraham experienced this in Gen 15:1-6. His
justification BY faith took place in Gen 15:1-6.
- Justification was applied to Abraham when
he was still in Ur, Gen 11. His justification by God's free grace took place in
Ur, Gen 11.
====
Let me give you one crucial hint: there is a
VAST difference between THREE aspects of justification:
- LEGAL justification accomplished by Christ at the
cross.
- VITAL/PERSONAL justification applied at
effectual calling.
- EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith through
the gospel ministry!
And if you cannot give me correct answers to your question, it means you have understood NOTHING of what I have said!
aLloyd
No, I understand, on the face of it, you
believe exactly what I believe. what I don't understand is how you say that is
different from what today's reformed baptists believe.? Because as far as I can
tell that is what they believe. Plus that post was much more helpful when you
break it down into the different categories. Bear with me and I will learn
from you. I guess I'm stumbling at why we don't make the call universal and
allow God to call out the called out?
Sing F Lau
If I believe exactly what you believe, then I
am completely puzzled by how you don't understand what I have been saying! Maybe
I speak with a strong Chinese accent <lol>.
The RBs who understood a little bit of what I
believe have disfellowshiped with me and called me a heretic!
If as far as you can tell, that is what they
believe, then your eye-sight and mind are in need of a very MAJOR overhaul
<lol>
You can read the whole book 'Pruning Seven
Deformed Branches' - it documents the whole controversy... Those churches
involved officially levelled SEVEN charges against me, on behalf of their
churches, (BUT WITHOUT their churches knowing it!, the horror of horror!) to the
church I pastor.... and they kept their elegant silence. I wrote in reply...
but they forbid their churches from reading my reply to those seven charges...
which explains why the reply is posted on the internet!
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/
Some astute friends described those RBs as 'ecclesiastical politicians' and hard ministers of the gospel.
Sing F Lau
aLloyd @ "I guess I'm stumbling at why we
don't make the call universal and allow God to call out the called out?"
Why don't we make the call universal?
By this, I assume that you mean the gospel call should be to sincerely offer salvation to all, and command every one
to believe Jesus as their Savior.
Such a practice would be in perfect
conformity with the doctrine of universal redemption.
But the Scriptures declare particular
redemption, and the gospel ministry is ordained for the GATHERING God's children
(those elect already regenerated by the free and sovereign grace of God WITHOUT the
help of preachers, and completely fitted for eternal glory) into NT churches.
Practices MUST be conformed to doctrine.
The Chinese have a saying: Don't join a girl's head to a boy's body! If you do, you will mess things up big time.
Sing F Lau
The new school Calvinists are in essence
Arminians who love an elitist 'reformed' label.
aLloyd
Well, I'm not good with putting things like
the confessions do, but I know this, that Jesus Christ called me out of darkness
into His glorious light, when he did He made a new person, a person that wanted
to follow and serve Him and give up everything else, He truly changed my
desires and affections. I call that regeneration; actually, I call it being born
again. When He has done that I knew my sins were forgiven and I was free, I call
that justification. But at that time I knew nothing about election, reprobation
predestination, or any of those big words. And all I can say that God and God
alone saved through His son and by His Spirit and word. How's that? Is that the
order you are telling me things work?
Jesus went out to sow and as He did some seed fell here and some fell there, some had ears to hear and some did not but nonetheless He still sowed the seed so, shouldn't we? As far as RBS goes, I'm really not one there a little stiff normally for my likes. I believe the word and if someone can show me I have got it wrong then I'm open to correction.
aLloyd
I like your sense of humour.
Sing F Lau
aLloyd, thank you for sharing your experience.
I wholly concur with you. When we were dead in trespasses and sins, in a state
of condemnation and death, God effectually called us out of that sin and death
and condemnation, without us or any man doing anything to assist God. The
effectual call to grace and salvation ENABLES us to perceive spiritual
things.
And having been born again, we still remained
UTTERLY ignorant of the truth of our salvation by God's free grace. It is only
through the gospel ministry - of varying quality and usefulness - that we begin
to learn bits and pieces of the glorious truth of our salvation by God's free
and sovereign grace. Lots of things that were taught to us, though sound good,
are actually so imprecise and inexact that they actually contradicted God's
word...
That's is why we are interacting here, that
we may learn and study together with the word of God.
You said, "Jesus went out to sow and as
He did some seed fell here and some fell there, some had ears to hear and some
did not but none the less He still sowed the seed so shouldn't we?"
Actually, this parable is about how disciples
should hear the preaching of the word. That is the purpose of the parable.
But I wholly agree with the point you are
making - about the need of going forth to preach the gospel.
Those who are called by Christ and sent forth
by Christ's church should go to preach the gospel wherever the Spirit of God
leads them.
Who do you think disbelieve or disagree with
that?
This is the specific reason why the risen
Lord gives pastors and teachers to His church:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some,
prophets; and some, evangelists; and SOME, PASTORS and TEACHERS;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the
work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the
faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the
measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight
of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow
up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined
together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the
effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body
unto the edifying of itself in love.
aLloyd
You asked, "Who do you think disbelieve or disagree with
that?"
What do you mean who disagrees sorry?
Sing F Lau
You wrote @ "Jesus went out to sow and
as He did some seed fell here and some fell there, some had ears to hear and
some did not but nonetheless He still sowed the seed, so shouldn't we?"
I was responding to your question at the end,
'He still sowed the seed, so shouldn't we?"
So I asked, "Who do you think disbelieve
or disagree with that?
The new-school Calvinists misrepresent the old-school Baptists as those who don't believe in evangelism or mission work.
aLloyd
So you are saying the old school do believe in
evangelism and missions, just not a universal call commanding men to repent? So
then what form do your evangelism and mission take, if you focus on only the
elect before they or you know who they are. because it seems to me you are
waiting for them to come to you and say hi I'm elect can you show me the way of
salvation.?
aLloyd
🙂 yes, I'm anti-invitational regeneration; oh, and baptismal regeneration.
aLloyd
Neither are regenerational, believers is
scriptural imho
Sing F Lau
aLloyd @ "so you are saying the old school do
believe in evangelism and missions."
Old-school baptists followed the doctrines
and practices of the apostles. The mission endeavour is church-based and Spirit-directed, not mission board organized and directed.
Alan@ "just not a universal call
commanding men to repent? So then what form do your evangelism and mission
take."
The gospel call is intended for the calling
of God's children, those elect that the Lord has regenerated directly WITHOUT
the aid of preachers or themselves. The gospel ministry is for the CONVERSION
of those whom God has already regenerated.
The most basic form is maintaining the
worship of God in spirit and truth in the community, making Christ known to the
people we meet and interact with. Sometimes I travel to places in response to
Macedonian call. In the journeys, I speak to people I meet. In Penang, we set up a
table at the shopping centre where our church premises is located... giving out
tracts to those who inquire... never pushing or thrusting anything down anyone
throat.
aLloyd @ "if you focus on only the elect
before they or you know who they are. because it seems to me you are waiting
for them to come to you and say hi I'm elect can you show me the way of
salvation?"
Your difficulty is imagined... and your
inability to understand
I DO NOT KNOW who is the elect before they
are brought to light by the gospel ministry. That DOES NOT detract from the
SIMPLE and BASIC fact that my ministry is ordained for, and has relevance ONLY to the
elect. In fact, ONLY relevant to the elect that has been regenerated.
You would be surprised if the new couples in my
church came of their own accord by hearing us on the internet. God
brought them along!
I don't show them the way of salvation... THEY ARE ALREADY SAVED BY GOD'S FREE GRACE. My ministry is to give them the knowledge of their salvation, i.e. what God has done to save them in Jesus Christ.
aLloyd
ok, so you do evangelism, you hand out tracts,
you speak to people about hope that is in you. But you don't call on men to
repent. I like what you say, it's true that God will bring people (his elect I
guess) across our path and we can testify about the hope that is in us. So then
it's true, one sows another reaps but God brings the increase. Keep talking, tell
me more about what you do and believe in regards to your church (realising
that people are actually the church)
Sing F Lau
My best answer is: Come and see!
aLloyd
to penang?
Sing F Lau
That's where the Lord has placed me for now!
aLloyd
is that Korea sorry for my ignorance oh no
Vietnam? why do the other churches call you a heretic?
Sing F Lau
Where? Deeeeeeep in the far east south seas. Why? Find out yourself. All are documented here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/
aLloyd
Author: Repentance and faith evidence eternal
life. You repent and believe BECAUSE God has effectually called you to eternal
life.>>> should it not be called us to
repentance?
aLloyd
Hmm, makes me wonder really I think 1689 agrees
with you from my reading of it. I know one thing regeneration is entirely of
God; it comes from above.
Sing F Lau
No, God-sent preachers call God's children to
repentance... and their repentance evidence that God HAS EFFECTUALLY CALLED
them to grace and salvation, i.e ETERNAL LIFE.
Only those whom God has effectually called to
grace and salvation are capable of responding in faith and repentance!
You still haven't understood something MOST basic about salvation by free grace!
aLloyd
I know that it's entirely of God without the
instrumentality of any means by man. ok
Sing F Lau
The new school Baptists have hijacked the
1689 CoF that was drawn up by the old school Baptists to teach GOSPEL
REGENERATION... beginning with Fuller and all his followers.
The effectual call, which embraces
justification APPLIED by free grace, regeneration, and adoption PLUS the gift of
the Spirit, in entirely without any human help or cooperation.
Read 1689.10 very carefully.
aLloyd
Is that effectual call? I just read the effectual
call and checked all the scripture references as well. It's by the working of
His mighty power that He gives us a new heart. ETC God says I will! I will do
it! salvation is of the Lord
aLloyd
Say you are right by the beach water, looks nice
and blue on the map that is.
Sing F Lau
BUT BUT BUT every new school baptist
CONDITIONED God's effectual call upon the gospel call they issue.
Their MANTRA is, no gospel call, no
effectual call!
They are infected with an INCURABLE disease
called "gospel born-againitis"!
They confuse God's effectual call to
grace and salvation with the preacher's gospel call to conversion.
They mistake God's effectual call to
grace and salvation as the preacher's gospel call made effectual unto
CONVERSION...
They are all messed up, just like the Arminians they despise... and they are ADAMANT in their falsehood. !
aLloyd
ok I'm just reading through your summary
again. This statement makes perfect sense, "Faith evidences your justification by God’s
free grace. God justified us when we were enemies. The justified ones shall
live by faith"
Is that like James saying show your faith without works. short of show me your justification by faith?
Sing F Lau
aLloyd @ "Is that like James saying show
your faith without works. short of show me your justification by faith?"
I fear very many are messed up with that
passage in James.
For an answer, please read here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/man-insists-by-faith-alone-scriptures.html
