What was counted unto him for righteousness?

On Dec 15, 2007, at 5:39 PM, sing wrote:

Dear Dr Bee,
If you are still studying the Scriptures, here is something for you to think about. I have a question. Please give me your thoughts.
Forward it to your RBs friends if you wish
I look forward to some credible explanation.
sing

Subject: Gen 15:1-6, Romans 4:3-5 and 1689.11.1

Genesis 15
1 ¶ After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 ¶ And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he [the LORD] counted it [Abraham's act of believing] to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

Comment: This passage speaks of the LORD imputing/accounting Abraham's faith to Abraham. This passage speaks of the IMPUTATION OF FAITH, the act of believing. This is quite obvious. But do you agree?

Romans 4:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith [act of believing] is counted for righteousness.

Comment: This passage speaks of the LORD - who justifies the ungodly by imputing /accounting the believer's faith to the believer. This passage speaks of the IMPUTATION OF FAITH, the act of believing. This is quite plain too, but do you agree?

1689 Chapter 11 on Justification says,
"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;(2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;(3) NOT BY imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,(4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(5)

The Framers emphatically state that Justification at effectual calling DOES NOT INVOLVE the imputation of faith, the act of believing. 

IMPUTATION OF BELIEVER'S FAITH is VERY REMOTELY JUSTIFICATION.

IMPUTATION OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS - by virtue of Christ's active and passive obedience - IS JUSTIFICATION.

The essence of Justification is declaring a guilty condemned criminal not guilty but righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Genesis 15 and Romans 4 passages speak of the imputation of the believer's faith to the believer. They say nothing of the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the ungodly.

My question:
Why do the Reformed (and the Arminian as well!) folks ALWAYS read those two passages as speaking of the justification of the guilty condemned sinner before God?

If Gen 15 is speaking of Abraham's justification before God, then Abraham would necessarily be an UN-justified UNGODLY man in Gen 12-14. But was Abraham an unjustified ungodly man in Gen 12-14?

Is Gen 15 speaking of Abraham's justification by God?

God justifies the UNGODLY. How does God justify the UNGODLY?

Faith justifies the BELIEVER. How does faith justify the BELIEVER?

desiring to learn,
sing
=======

Dec 27, 2007, 9:21 PM

Dear Brother Sing,
...
...
I'd better go home soon.  Oh, but just before I sign off I would like to ask for your understanding of Psalm 106:30-31 (cf Gen 15:5-6).  This is in response to your previous email on the Genesis passage.  I am sorry that I cannot often give an in-depth reply to your posted question as I have found myself going home later and later due to the many email messages I have to reply to, usually at the end of work each day.  But keep the questions coming for they serve to stimulate my mind to think even though you may not get to hear my answer.  Thanks.

In His love,
Bee
=======

Dec 31, 2007, 12:15 AM

Dear Dr Bee, 
You asked about Phinehas in Ps 106:30-31 and his great exploit for the Lord.
This is what I wrote in the 'Pruning' book. I copy and paste it here.

"Phinehas’ courageous act was an act of faith and it was accounted to him for righteousness – “Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore” Ps 106:30-31. It was certainly not the using of a javelin on the two whoremongers that effected his legal justification, i.e., his right standing before God. There was no imputation of the righteousness of Christ to Phinehas here! It was his great act of faith that was counted unto him for righteousness – he was blessed to experience the blessedness of his justified and righteous state, evidenced by his faithful act.

"Faith is not merely the sole instrument to evidence the justified state of the person by free grace. Faith is also the only means for an elect to enter into a conscious experience and enjoyment of the benefits of salvation, even ‘those benefits which in this life accompany or flow from justification, adoption and sanctification. They include “assurance of God’s love, peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Spirit, increase of grace, and perseverance therein to the end” (SC Q.36). By faith in Christ the Saviour, a justified man experiences the blessedness of all sins forgiven at justification; he experiences the blessedness of the righteousness of Christ imputed at effectual call. These blessings are accounted to him by God’s free grace. By faith in Jesus Christ, a regenerated elect of God ‘really and personally’ enters into the enjoyment and experience of the ‘liberties and privileges’ as adopted children of God. This is what Gen 15:6 speaks of concerning Abram. Abram was already a justified man in Gen 12-14, [and evidenced many works of faith.]

"This is what is meant when the Confession says, “They receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God” 1689.11.1. This is justification experienced through the instrument of faith. This is not justification secured through the instrument of faith – i.e., right standing with God is NOT secured through the instrument of faith, double imputation of sins and righteousness is NOT through the instrument of faith – as espoused and defended by the leaders of these seven churches."

I hope the paragraphs answer your question.

Ps 106:30-31 is another nail into the coffin of the heretical idea - legal justification is through the instrumentality of the believer's faith - espoused and defended by the leaders of these seven churches.

learning still,
sing
======

Mon, Dec 31, 2007, 11:15 PM

Dear Brother Sing,
Sorry to miss your explanation in the 'Pruning' book.  Yes, it's interesting to me to note the same phrase: "that was counted unto him for righteousness" being used to describe the consequence of both Abraham's faith and Phinehas' action (or work).  If this phrase is used to refer to 'legal justification' or 'eternal salvation' by faith as claimed in the case of Abraham, then it would have to mean also salvation by work in the case of Phinehas - which obviously we (apart from the RC) do not believe in.

How then do the proponents of those using Abraham's example to support justification by faith explain Ps 106:30-31 regarding God's response to Phinehas' action?

Sitting at His feet,
Bee
======

Jan 1, 2008, 1:11 AM

Dear Dr Bee,
May our Lord and Saviour bless the year ahead.
Your conclusion "then it would have to mean also...." is a good example of rightly dividing the word of truth.

I wish some reformed Baptists would think like you do. But they don't,  and refuse to!

Your question, "How then do the proponents of those using Abraham's example to support justification (LEGAL) by faith explain Ps 106:30-31 ..."

First, the simple answer, is that the passage does not even come into their consideration. I have not come across a single instance where Ps 106:30-31 is considered by the proponents of justification (legal) by faith!!! That passage, as you rightly conclude, demolishes their grievous error.

Second, perhaps you might want to direct your question to your pastor and those associated with him. I would like to know his answer if he is brave and honest enough to venture an answer.

So far, no reformed Baptists in all the whole world have responded to my simple and honest inquiry on the relationship on Gen 15:1-6, Romans 4:1-8 and 1689.11.1  And the reason is very simple...  answering the question would state the truth of God as well as exposing their grievous and gospel repudiating error. It is no small error... after all the reformed people have always affirmed that 'the doctrine of justification determines the standing or the falling of a church.' If it had been a minor matter, I would have KEPT my mouth shut, and let the fire burn within.

sing

Thoughts on baptism and re-baptism

Two little sisters enjoying feeding
the Japanese carp in the pond.

Jun 13, 2007, 8:32 AM
Concerning rebaptism

Dear Brother Ehsan,

My sincere apology for not responding earlier.
Thanks for sharing with me your situation with the Bible Baptist Church.

I do commend you and your dear wife for the sincere desire to practice biblical churchmanship. I am sad that such a desire has been rebuffed by the BBC. May the Lord bless you both for wanting to do right even though others have unwisely put obstacles in your path. Being part of a God-fearing and Christ-honoring local church is essential to our well-being (NOT 'being') as God's children making our journey through this wilderness world to our eternal home and glory.

Concerning the demand to be baptized again before admission into church membership, this is not unusual with some churches, each having their various and weird reasons. Many of these reasons are whimsical and unscriptural. The Scriptures do speak of the need for 're-baptism' when the previous baptism, for various reasons, did not constitute a valid or scriptural baptism - see Acts 19.

So, the parties involved need to come to an agreement of what constitutes a biblical baptism, and what constitutes an alien invalid baptism. The Scriptures speak of the ONE Lord and ONE baptism. What constitutes the ONE baptism commanded, and accepted by the Lord Jesus Christ? Different people will give various number of reasons... all claiming to be biblical. It is one thing for a church to claim biblical authority to her practice, it is another to prove it from the plain statements of Scripture. Scripture is, and must be the ONLY authority for our faith and practice.

From the Scriptures, we can discern without doubt that the ONE baptism spoken of is the baptism of (a) the proper subject: a believer (b) with proper mode: immersion (c) by a proper administrator: ordained pastor of a church of Jesus Christ (d) for the proper reason: the answer of a good conscience toward God.

(a) A Proper Subject: only a believer in Jesus Christ is a valid candidate for baptism. But a believer in/of what? Various churches insist that unless a person believes this or that doctrine of their churches, e.g. Pre-millennialism, Dispensationalism, Calvinism, church-ism (we are the true church), or this 'ism' and that 'ism', etc, etc. All these have gone beyond the Scriptures. They are adding to the Scriptures. Believing in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour is all that the Scripture requires of a person to be a fit candidate for water immersion - that is all the requirement of the Scriptures upon a repentant sinner. These believers may only have minimal knowledge of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ - they may be ignorant of the deep doctrines of the person of Christ - that's what we see in the Scriptures again and again. They heard the gospel, believed and were baptized. Teaching and instructing and grounding them in sound doctrines and training them in practical godliness FOLLOW AFTER their baptism.  It is "Come and learn"; it is not "Learn, then come." All the epistles were written to churches to establish them in the sound doctrines and practical godliness, to reprove and to correct them of their errors and practices. If these people had known and agreed with all the doctrines before they were baptized, there would be no more need for these apostolic epistles to them!!!

'Believing in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ' qualifies a sinner as a biblical candidate for baptism, and makes his baptism a biblical baptism.

(b) With a Proper Mode: Immersion is the only mode specified by Christ, and from every consideration the only mode that adequately expresses and portrays a person's union with the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have never seen a dead person buried with a handful of soil sprinkled over him. Such is no burial at all! In such a case, it is imperative that another burial, a proper one is performed. No immersion, no baptism, no matter what. No one will dispute that sprinkling a handful of dirt on a dead person constitutes NO burial!

(c) By a Proper Administrator: is an officer of Christ representing a local NT church. He is delegated by Christ to administer the authority which Christ Himself has invested in the church; it is not invested in the administrator! (Some pastors claim that the power is invested in them, and become tyrannical and lording over the Lord's heritage.)  The administrator performs baptism in the name of Christ, baptizing in the name of the Trinity, by the authority of Christ vested in the local church, and the baptized are added to the membership of the church.
(One who is baptized in the authority of Christ is brought under the same authority vested in a local church. A baptism that does not bring the baptized under the authority of Christ vested in a local church is a farce and a monstrosity unknown in the Scriptures.)

(d) For a Proper Reason:  1Pe 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 
- Water baptism does not put away sin, the filth of the flesh; it's only a picture of how our sins were put away by Christ’s death and resurrection. Submitting to water baptism is simply an answer and testimony to God for what He has done in Jesus Christ to save us by Himself. It is the answer of a conscience, made good by the blood of Christ, towards God.

So a believer in Jesus Christ who is immersed by a biblical officer of an NT church in the blessed name of the Triune God for the right reason is biblically baptized. Such baptism should be recognized and received by all churches that honour Christ as the Head of the Church. One who has not undergone biblical baptism should be properly baptized - let the old man be properly buried by immersion by a lawful administrator.

Biblical baptism is in the name of Christ; it is not in the name of a church or a denomination. Some churches believe that only baptisms administered by their churches and in the name of their churches are valid. This is presumptuous at best, and self-conceited at worst.

They elevate themselves above Christ. I fear that the BBC in XYZ town which requires you to be baptized in order to be admitted into its membership belongs to this category.

To reject and despise a biblical baptism that Christ has received and approved is no small offence. I think repudiating what Christ Jesus, the sole Head of the Church, has received and approved is a serious matter. It is putting themselves at odds against Jesus Christ, arbitrarily setting up human standards in the house of God, the church of Christ. But many only give lip service to Christ Headship and Lordship. In reality, they usurp Christ's authority by legislating and imposing their own whims and fancies upon His redeemed people. It is adding to the Scriptures and despises Christ's authority as the ALONE head of His church.

For a believer, who has been baptized biblical, to submit to another baptism is not a small offence either. Such an act is an affront and insult to Christ. It is to despise the valid baptism one already received. It is likened to having your old man that had been properly buried dug up so that another burial may be performed upon it! That's what demand for the re-baptism of a properly baptized child of God amounts to! It is a great offence to the dead that had been properly buried to be dug up and be buried again. Do people ever consider what their demand amounts too?

In light of these follies, it is a matter of comfort and assurance to know that our place in eternal glory in the presence of God is all by the mercies and grace of God... "For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Going to heaven DOES NOT depend in any way on anything we do or fail to do. It is all by the grace of God... no one contributes or assists God in any way in the work of predestinating (predetermining his eternal destiny) him to eternal glory... no one assists God in calling him out of death and sin and condemnation to eternal life and righteousness and forgiveness.

Take careful note of all the sovereign and unilateral acts of God - our eternal salvation is guaranteed by the free and sovereign acts of God... even though the foolishness of some churches may deprive us of the temporal blessings! Churches of Jesus Christ on earth are EMBASSIES of HEAVEN on earth... and they are here to minister to the needs of ALL Christ's people, NOT just some class of Christ's people.

I don't think Christ would be pleased with churches that turn away His people for whimsical reasons.

Brother, I have rambled... Please know that you will find a home among the Lord's humble saints in Sungai Dua Church here in Penang.

We love you in the Lord. His people are precious in our sight, whatever defects they might presently have.

your brother and servant of Christ,
sing

Enter ye in at the strait gate!

The broad way is so prominent;
The narrow way is inconspicuous.

Dear Pastor,
Please explain Matthew 7:13-14.
Will only a few get to heaven? 
----------

March 14, 2007 9:28:04 AM
Subject: Re: 'many.. few' and 'a great multitude, which no man can number.'

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14.

This passage is COMMONLY understood as teaching what a sinner must do in order to avoid eternal destruction and to find eternal life: eternal destruction is avoided and eternal life is obtained by one's entering the strait gate and going on the narrow way. 

Is this what you have been taught, and believe, too?

Let us ask a few questions: "Come, let us reason together."

1. To whom did Christ address these words of exhortation?
- To those already born with eternal life, or
- To those still dead in trespasses and sin???

2. Is the destruction spoken of eternal destruction? Nearly all affirm 'yes.'

3. Is the life spoken of eternal life? Nearly all affirm 'yes.'

4. Or is it temporal destruction and the loss of this temporal salvation spoken of? Very few hold this view.

Let us reason together. Consider a few thoughts.

Do those without eternal life - i.e. still spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, and not regenerated by the Spirit of God - do they EVER enter at the strait gate and walk the narrow way in order to get eternal life?

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." John 3:3,5. If a man who is not born again by the Spirit of God cannot even see nor enter the kingdom of God, how could he ever enter at the strait gate and walk the narrow way of godliness?

These words are specifically addressed to the disciples (Mt 5:2, Lk 6:20), and therefore, to those already born again by the Spirit of God and possess eternal life. These are exhorted to a discipleship of daily entering the strait gate and walking the narrow way. Only those with eternal life are able to enter at the strait gate and walk the narrow way, to begin with. Only those with eternal life is able to take up the cross and follow Jesus Christ - i.e. entering the strait gate and walking the narrow way that leads to life... the passage DOESN'T say 'eternal life.'

But there are many with eternal life (regenerated by God's free and sovereign grace alone) who fail to enter the strait gate and walk the narrow way IN THEIR DAILY LIVES... much like their cousin Mr Lot. Many of God's children enter in the wide gate and walk the broad way in their daily lives... Few of them walk like their father Abraham. Lot suffered terrible destructions in this life by his life of entering the wide gate and walking the broad way. But Lot is in heaven by the free grace of God - a justified and righteous man... see 2Pet 2:6-6. Abraham enjoyed the abundance of life by his life of entering at the strait gate and walking the narrow road. Lot wasted and squandered away his life in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Let's assume that the passage is indeed speaking about eternal life (please note that the passage says 'life' and not 'eternal life').

1. Then according to the passage, ONLY FEW find eternal life! If that's the case, then the heaven would be VERY sparsely populated. However, this popular idea openly contradicts the Scriptures itself, which declares: "After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes..." Rev 7:9.

2. If that's the case, then eternal life is no more by God's free grace. Instead, it is the reward for those few who enter at the strait gate and walk the narrow way; eternal life is a reward for their obedience; then eternal life is found by these few through their good works of entering the strait gate and walking the narrow way; eternal life is found by those who made the mark... who enter the strait gate well enough and walk the narrow way well enough! Then it must be concluded that those few saved themselves from eternal destruction by their entering the strait gate and walking the narrow way. In other words, this is nothing but eternal salvation by man's good works... the good works of entering at the strait gate and walking the narrow road secures eternal life as a reward. This plainly repudiates the biblical teaching of salvation by grace and is clearly condemned by the Scriptures.

Our eternal life and eternal salvation are wholly by the free grace of God, bestowed upon us while we were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. This free bestowal of eternal life enables us to heed the exhortation in Mt 7:13-14.

Our abundant of life and salvation from temporal destruction is by our daily entering in the strait gate and walking the narrow way  in this life here on earth - it is living soberly, righteously and godly (Titus 2:12-13)

God freely bestows eternal salvation to us so that we might work out our own salvation here in this life on earth while journey to our eternal home. God is not just interested in the eternal salvation of His elect. He cares also for the temporal salvation of His elect here on earth too, and after death before resurrection to glory. That explains the command, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world."

The command here has NOTHING to do with bringing the eternal salvation of God's elect. The Triune God takes care of that all by Himself... Romans 8:28-29. The command here has to do with the temporal salvation of God's children - go and teach God's children that are found in all nations... in the teaching and preaching of God's word,  God's children are made manifest by their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... these are to be baptized and gathered into NT churches... to be taught to observe the instruction of Christ here on earth as they trod through this world to their eternal home. They are daily to enter the strait gate and walk the narrow way if they are to experience and know an abundance of life. John 12:25.

There are TOO many Lot among God's children, and only a few Abraham.

Beware of the 'swiney' life of Lot and the prodigal son. Follow the princely life of Abraham.

In the eternal sense, both are equally saved by God's free grace: equally justified, equally regenerated, equally adopted, equally glorified - all by God's free and sovereign grace.

In the timely or temporal sense, Lot suffered destruction, and Abraham experienced abundant life.

Lot squandered away and wasted the redeemed life... but Abraham saved his redeemed life.

 

There are churches that walk the popular way of Lot and they are churches that walk the lonely way of Abraham.

We here have chosen the latter.

Now read John 12:25 and meditate on it.
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

Keep studying and learning... 
Yay our Lord bless you richly.

 a student of God's word

sing

Will God accept anyone who does not love Him?

Will God accept anyone who does not love Him?
He reconciled us when we were enemies!

On Mar 13, 2007, at 7:20 PM,

Brainy Brian inquired at the particularbaptist@yahoogroups.com discussion group.

Sing, will God accept anyone who does not love Him? Is our love to Him as important as the legal ramifications of justification to Him? Do those who have not called upon the name of the only begotten Son of God, love Him? Can they even know Him?

Brian
====

Brainy Brian, 
I am puzzled most of the time by your rhetorical interrogative questions, and I ask myself what have I written that provokes such questions.

Let me give my sandy thoughts to your 'rhetorical' questions - so put on goggles.

1. Will God accept anyone who does not love Him?
As I understand from the Bible, God's amazing acceptance of a sinner - condemned, dead and alienated slave - begins in TIME by His free and sovereign work of effectually calling him personally to grace and salvation - by removing that condemnation through justification, by removing that spiritual deadness through regeneration, and by removing that alienation through adoption and bestowing the Holy Spirit to dwell in His child. God put His laws into their mind and wrote them in their hearts, Heb 8:10. I do expect such as born of God Himself will somehow love God from the heart no matter how ignorant he may be. HOWEVER, I do believe that the gospel ministry would enhance that love for God in a mighty manner. Nevertheless, God ACCEPTED [simple past tense] a sinner while he was in enmity against Him and gave His only begotten Son.

God the Father does scourge and chastise a loveless and cold-hearted child of His. The issue of acceptance with God is a settled matter once and for all by God Himself... by His free and sovereign grace. In Jesus Christ, God accepted a sinner in enmity against Him!

2. Is our love to Him as important as the legal ramifications of justification to Him?
I don't understand your question. What are the legal ramifications of justification? If you tell me what they are, and how important they are to God, then I may attempt to answer your question.

3. Do those who have not called upon the name of the only begotten Son of God, love Him?
The simple answer is NO. I hope this is the answer you wanted to hear. Why, do you expect me to say 'yes.'

Their BEING as sons of God is independent of and PRIOR to their calling upon the name of the only begotten Son of God. They were born sons of God on the basis of the life and death of the only begotten Son of God. The gospel ministry is to inform them of the truth concerning their Lord and Saviour --- that they may hear and believe Him and call upon Him. Without the gospel ministry, they would have no knowledge of their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They would be deprived of the temporal salvation which the ministry of the word has been appointed for. Ignorance is certainly no bliss... it deprives a child of God, destined and fitted for eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace - of so much temporal blessing while he lives here on this earth.

God does not just care for the eternal salvation of His elect. He cares for the temporal salvation of His elect here on earth too. That explains the command, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world."

The command here has NOTHING to do with the eternal salvation of God's elect. The Triune God takes care of that all by Himself... Romans 8:28-29. The command here has to do with the temporal salvation of God's children - go and teach God's children that are found in all nations... in teaching and preaching, God's children are made manifest by their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ... these are to be baptized and gathered into NT churches... to be taught to observe the instruction of Christ here on earth as they trod through this world to their eternal home.

4. Can they even know Him?
Ordinarily, without the ministry of the word, GOD'S CHILDREN would have no knowledge of Christ.

They are eternally saved by grace alone that they may know Christ... and be saved timely through the gospel ministry. Eternal salvation in Jesus Christ PRECEDES saving knowledge of Him. 

"And this is life eternal, THAT - THAT -THAT they might thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."

Now tell me how many buckets of sand you will send over.

sing
==========

 Tue, Mar 20, 2007 at 2:48 AM

To: ParticularBaptist <particularbaptist@yahoogroups.com>

 

Brainy Brian,
Please peruse my responses (**) to your (BB) further comments.

Brainy 1. Will God accept anyone who does not love Him?
sing said: God the Father does scourge and chastise a loveless and cold-hearted child of His.
BB: Sing, I deleted the contents that you and I agree on, the remaining sentence seems to be the crux of our differences.

## So what is the difference? Is it that you do believe every child of God, by virtue of that divine act of regeneration from spiritual death, would love God intelligently without the ministry of the word? I do believe the ministry of the word is very essential if a child of God is to love Him intelligently.

Or is it that you believe that the ministry of the word is an indispensable means for the regeneration of sinners dead in trespasses and sin. I do believe God produces His children without the slightest help from man. But his training is left to the ministry of the word!

2. Is our love to Him as important as the legal ramifications of justification to Him?
sing said: Don't understand your question. What are the legal ramifications of justification? If you tell me what they are, and how important they are to God, then I may attempt to answer your question.
BB: Justification is all about legality, it is a court room term. It means that the sinner stands before God just and undeserving of the Law's penalty. What I am asking here is this, Is the love of the redeemed sinner for God as important as his being justified?

##: For that, you have to ask God: whether the love of the redeemed for God is as important as their being justified. I really don't know.

What I can tell you are these:
- God Himself justifies the UNGODLY by His free grace, without any means or any assistance from the person justified... because the person justified is in his native state of condemnation and death.
- God Himself, freely and sovereign, justifies EVERY ELECT - so that NONE of His elect would remain under their just condemnation and perish eternally.
- God Himself, freely and sovereignly GUARANTEE the legal justification of every elect ...  and this justification is not conditioned upon anything in man, or of man.
- God Himself, freely and sovereignly GUARANTEED that each and every elect is EQUALLY justified legally - based solely and completely upon the same righteousness of Christ. 

I can't tell you if I could say the same about God working freely and sovereignly in each of His redeemed elect so that every one of them would automatically and without fail love Him? I suppose if the love of His redeemed people for God is important enough FOR HIM, He would make sure that it is so by His wisdom and omnipotent power - that EVERY justified elect would love God with the noble power that the glorified saints now have!

What I can tell you is this: God did appoint the ministry of the word, so that His redeemed people may be instructed and taught the truth, be trained in all righteousness, and godliness... exhorted to love God because He has first loved them. I think for God's redeemed people to love God is VERY IMPORTANT for the redeemed people themselves... their loving God is absolutely essential to their own spiritual WELL-BEING here on earth. It is important enough to God that He sovereignly and wisely appointed means - the ministry of the word in the context of local churches - to that end.

BB: 3. Do those who have not called upon the name of the only begotten Son of God, love Him?
sing said: Simple answer, NO. I hope this is the answer you wanted to hear. Why, do you expect me to say 'yes.'
BB: Then they have not been brought where they even begin to fulfil the first and greatest commandment 

## That's the important function of the ministry of the word - to bring the children of God to the knowledge of that first and greatest commandment. "How then shall they call upon the name of the Lord in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14 

Go, preach the gospel and make disciples of such... teaching them to observe all things whatsoever Christ has commanded - which includes "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. " Teach him, and train him, rebuke and correct him...

Brother, have you begun to FULFILL the first and greatest commandment yet? Do you ever hope to fulfil it?

BB Matthew 22:36-38  "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment."

Isn't this a commandment that would have been in effect pre-fall? Are you saying that when God regenerates or gives spiritual birth, they are not new creatures? Their basic morality has not changed?

## Pre-fall or not, I don't remember saying one way or another. You tell us what you think.

When God regenerates and gives ETERNAL life (the term 'spiritual life' DOES NOT occur in the NT) a sinner is made a new creature. There is a new creation. They are given a new nature, with a new inclination. They are now CAPABLE of receiving the things of the Spirit of God... they are capable of being trained and instructed in righteousness and godliness. Regeneration DOES NOT bring them to a life of righteousness and godliness. Righteousness and godliness MUST BE TAUGHT and INSTRUCT through the ministry of the word.

You are probably saying that the divine work of regeneration AUTOMATICALLY brings about a radical change in the outward life of righteousness and godliness. I really wish this is the case. Pastoral work would be so easy and tearless! But alas, that just a silly dream. There would be godliness and righteousness everywhere!!!

BB: Deuteronomy 5:9  Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

## Just who do you think God is addressing? Pagans?
Remember the folly of wise Solomon in dabbling with IDOLATRY???
God's very own children are inclined to all forms of idolatry... called spiritual adultery...
Who do think James was warning in his epistle? Pagan Gentiles, or God's children?

BB: What is jealousy? It is not wrath produced by the alienation of affection from one to another? If God is not loved, He is jealous.

## Yes and yes, if God is not loved by His redeemed people, He would be VERY jealous. All go to show that God's people do fail to love God as they should, and they fail miserably... and I fail more miserably. Don't think you do any better!

God cares not the least bit when the children of the devil love Him not. God expects the children of the devil to hate him... that is acting true to their nature.

BB: Jesus goes so far as to say,
John 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

## Of course... these people have been taught and instructed by the Lord Jesus himself... they have the oracles of God... if they are the children of God, they would receive and love Christ, sent by God.

But they were of their father the devil.

BB. If God were your father, you would love Me. But you say that this is not a true statement, rather it should be, "If God were your father AND YOU HAVE ALSO HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND PLACED YOUR FAITH IN ME.. then you will love me, BUT AS FAR AS YOUR ETERNAL SALVATION, IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

## The children of God need to hear the gospel if they are ever to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Read Romans  10:13-15. And for heaven's sake, ONLY GOD'S CHILDREN - regenerated with eternal life, would call upon the Lord. But no hearing, no calling. No calling no temporal salvation. They already have ETERNAL SALVATION through effectual calling by the free and sovereign grace of God when they were in their native state of sin and condemnation. 

If a child of God has not heard the gospel of their salvation and is not instructed concerning the Saviour Jesus Christ, how would they love the Lord Jesus Christ? How shall they love Him of whom they have not heard???

Your eternal salvation is a SETTLED matter... you contribute nothing to you. You cannot improve it one tiny bit even if you have 1000 lives to live. And you can't possibly love Jesus Christ your Saviour and Lord if you have not heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, BROUGHT TO YOU.

BB: This is not what Christ said. How are the elect of God manifested? They flee to Christ in repentance. How many of the elect flee to Christ. "ALL that the Father hath given Me shall come to Me." Being born of God and fleeing to Christ are not separate operations that can occur only half way and not be completed.

## "ALL that the Father hath given Me shall come to Me."
Brainy, sometimes you can be TOO BRAINY that you end up shooting your own feet... fortunately, it is just your own feet, and not your own brain, for that would be the end of this discussion. <grin>.

You did read my comments on Romans 8:29-30 didn't you? Have you forgotten what is said there.?

Do you really want to make this statement "ALL that the Father hath given Me shall come to Me" to mean that every elect of God will hear the gospel and flee to Christ?

I suggest to you that the statement makes more sense if you understand "All that the Father hath given to Me shall come to Me" because the Father will draw each one to Christ in effectual calling to grace and salvation, the Father will UNITE each elect to Christ in the effectual calling to eternal salvation. In this sense alone, the statement can be true of every single elect. All are EFFECTUALLY CALLED. NOT ALL are outwardly called by the gospel.

Effectual call unto grace and salvation is a separate and distinct operation by the free and sovereign grace of God, WITHOUT the aid, or cooperation of man whatsoever. God begins and completes it Himself, without human aid. He freely and sovereignly brings His children into BEING. The gospel call to bring God's children to believe the truth is a separate and distinct operation delegated to His church to carry out. This operation is very essential for the WELL-BEING of God's people here on earth.

BB, People are different. Some are enlightened and convicted of sin for some time before they come to Christ. But once fully regenerated, they will flee to Christ. He that predestined the regeneration has also predestined the gospel witness.

## The regenerated, when they hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, are drawn to the truth by the Spirit of God. There are regenerate children of God who do not have the opportunity to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. The hearing of the gospel is necessary for them to call upon the name of the Lord. For those regenerate whom the gospel failed to reach, there would be no calling upon the Lord Jesus... yet they do have love for God in their heart. Cornelius is a good example. But the gospel came to him, and he was converted. He was regenerated long before the gospel was brought to him by Peter.

God decreed regeneration for EVERY SINGLE elect of His.
Christ commanded the gospel witness to be preached.

Sorry, run OUT OF SAND...

sing, from the far east south seas

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p/s 
Is any child of God less than FULLY regenerated?
Is regeneration a process, or an instantaneous act?  

Predestination versus Fatalism

 

#predestionation_vs_fatalism

Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:08 am

Sing, can you tell us the major differences between your understanding of divine predestination and that taught by the Islamics?
Brian

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Mar 12, 2007, 10:49 AM

Brainy Brian,
I don't know if I can; I don't know what is "taught by the Islamics."
It is odd that you ask such a question; it betrays your serious difficulties with my view of predestination. What have I written that conveys SUCH a fatalistic idea in your mind? I'm just curious.

I can tell you the little I know what I understand the Bible to say on predestination.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30.

EVERYTHING HERE IS MONERGISTIC - SOLELY AND COMPLETELY by free and sovereign divine grace - of pure and unadulterated divine grace in our eternal salvation. Also, all the divine actions here embrace and apply to every single elect in Christ, without exception.

Now let me explain.
The first basic point to note concerning Romans 8:29-30 is that the people embraced here include every single elect. This simple fact should inform us how we understand the wonderful declaration... The exact number predestinated is the same number effectually called unto eternal life through free grace justification based solely on the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ. Every single elect predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, God called... God justified... and God glorified… all by God’s free grace, without any human co-operation. Not a single elect of God missed this call. So, what is this call? Is it the gospel call to faith or the effectual call unto eternal life? This call cannot be the gospel call to conversion - because the gospel call to conversion does not reach every single elect who is effectually called unto eternal life, see 1689.10.3. The call here is the divine effectual call unto eternal life - and this is true of every single elect, with no exception whatsoever, 1689.10.1.

Every elect is called unto eternal life by the direct and immediate and efficacious call of God through His Word (life-giving Christ) and Spirit. This He did by justifying them, i.e. He removed the just condemnation upon them, and imputed to them personally the righteousness of Christ, all by pure free grace, not on condition of faith.  One is gravely mistaken in understanding the call in Romans 8:30 has anything to do with the gospel call. It is classic eisegesis by very many - the free-willer as well as the so-called 'reformed' folks.

The justification spoken here is the justification applied to an elect at effectual calling unto eternal life, spoken of in 1689.11.1. This is the justification applied to every single elect personally. This is not the justification experienced by faith through the gospel call - because not all the elect will receive the gospel call and experience justification by faith. The justification spoken of here is justification before faith is possible; i.e. justification applied when an elect was in his native state of sin and condemnation. This passage does not support the view of the gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here.

There is an effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of the condemnation of death, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally. There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to an elect personally. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of temporal salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.

There is no gospel call here. Apostle Paul did not say, “whom the preacher called God justified.” The preacher issues a gospel call to conversion. But what did Christ say about the call to life? John 5:25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Please note, this does not say the ministry of the preached word, nor the preached words of Christ, it is not the voice of the preacher, but the ‘voice of the Son of God’. How easy it is to usurp Christ in the effectual calling of the spiritually dead elect to eternal life with the preachers’ gospel call of the regenerated elect to believe in the truth.

Those that God has predestinated to eternal salvation, God himself will bring them to eternal salvation, without any assistance or cooperation from finite man.

Where then is the place of the ministry of the word? Good question. It is indispensable for God's children - elect already regenerated by God - to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation (Eph 1:13). They need to hear and know the truth of their glorious salvation by God's grace. God has appointed the ministry of the word to bring temporal blessings to His children here on earth.

The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY - but only for the purpose it is ordained by God, not what man has VAINLY imagined. Preachers have been called to feed the lambs... but many have vainly and foolishly thought that God called them and commissioned them to HELP God birth His children. The command is, "Go, and make disciples..." Too many think it is, "Go and make children of God." God's children must be discipled... instructed and taught the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, taught to observe all the commands of Christ - this will bring them temporal salvation in this life. The command is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Only those whom God has already effectually called to eternal life, saved eternally, are capable of receiving teaching from God-sent preachers. Too many foolishly think, "Go ye, therefore, and assist God to bring forth His children."

The ministry of the word is MOST UNNECESSARY for the BEING of God's children.
The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY for the WELL-BEING of God's children.

It was never ordained for that purpose. Deluded men have perverted it. I have not heard of a father who ever claimed that diapers and baby clothing have anything to do with the BEING, the conception and birth of a child. But there are too many deluded preachers and believers that the ministry of the word and faith has something to do with their BEING as children of God.

Without the ministry of the word, not one jot of the eternal salvation of one elect is ever lost.

Without the ministry of the word, a child of God is deprived of the temporal salvation which comes from the ministry of the word. That explains the urgency of 'preach the word, be instant in season, and out of season...' That explains the command, 'take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou BOTH SAVE THYSELF, AND TEHM that hear thee.'

Would the eternally wise God risk the eternal salvation of His elect by conditioning it upon something finite man must cooperate and assist? God forbids.

That's about all I know - and it is a fraction of a drop in the South China Sea.

God is sovereign, and I am an optimist; I'm no fatalist as indicated by your question.

Now, you may tell me the difference between what I believe and what you think (i.e. fatalism) is taught by the Islamics about predestination.

sing