From: KES <...@pd.jaring.my>
Date:
July 20, 2007 6:03:26 AM GMT+07:00
To:
sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Subject:
Is this the norm?
Dear
Pastor,
Cornelius,
the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia are very good examples recorded for our
soul. Regenerate and live a godly life prior to the response on the Gospel
call.
Questions:
a.
Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for
regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in
the open to declare the glory of God. Understandable in the remote areas
where those early times where the gospel could not be reached.
However, with the advances of communications, the gospel could not be reached to them.
b.
If in the present era, regenerated people with the fore knowledge of God,
do these people have no opportunity to join a church?
c. Then the next question
is "how would the people of God praise HIM day and night?" The gathered
church may be lacking in numbers to corporate prayers and worship.
Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between
birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful
to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder of the death and resurrection
of the Lord Jesus Christ?
By now you may have realized we asked amiss and stupid questions. What bothers me especially is "why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well-being of one's life while on earth. Declaring faith in the open would be like Adam & Eve in fellowship before their fall. Fellowship in the church is a type for the thing to come in heaven. Pastor, I am asking the ridiculous and putting forth questions with obvious answers. As you mentioned often, what is not said carries the true intentions.
Best
regards
KES
Dear
Brother Kes,
It
is good to hear from you. Five or six years ago, I was also asking the same
questions as you do... only I asked a whole lot more... So, keep asking, and
you will help me to keep thinking and learning.
Here is one I just asked two days ago...
Dear
Brethren,
Please
help me with a question.
The
Scriptures declares, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to
take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people,
and nation..."(Revelation of John 5:9).
Does
this statement help to answer the questions:
-
Were there God's elect that perished in the great flood?'
-
Were there 'kindred, and people, and nation' before the confusion of tongue at
Babel?
-
The period between Adam and the great flood was 1656 years (Antsey) - did
'kindred, and people, and nation' develop within this period?
Any thought would be most welcome.
sing
-------------
Please note that your question, 'is this the norm' necessarily implies the corollary idea of ' that is an exception.' I have forwarded you a post on this.
Below I will answer in your post. A bit long... but please read patiently. May our Lord bless you richly. Anything you don't understand, feel free to ask. Anything you don't agree, show me I am wrong. I am teachable and am still learning.
<<Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia are very good examples recorded for our soul. Regenerate and live a godly life before the response on the Gospel call. Questions:>>
## Yes, God regenerates His elect WITHOUT the aid or cooperation of man. This is a given. I fathered ALL my children without their aid or that of the midwives!!! But many people are involved in giving a hand for their nurturing and well being and usefulness.
Please
note that we must not commit the FATAL ERROR here, i.e. to construe from this
fact that IF regeneration and living a godly life is prior to the response on
the gospel call, THEN the gospel ministry is not necessary to God's children.
Please do remember that though Cornelius - prior to hearing the gospel -
POSSESSES eternal life and DOES fear God and work righteousness (if by this you
mean 'he is living a godly life' - then, yes, he is), yet there is still so
much deficiency in his discipleship as a child of God. He is ignorant of the
truth of his salvation by God's free grace, His Father, His Saviour; he is
still plagued with many superstitions, he is still burdened with many cares and
worries of life, etc, etc. He is indeed a child of God, but ONLY a babe. The
gospel ministry is most essential for the nurture and growth of the babe.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that
the man of God may be perfect [complete, mature], throughly furnished unto all
good works." (II Timothy 3:16- 17).
Every man of God began his spiritual
life as a babe. Without the ministry of the gospel, a child of God remains a spiritual babe through much of his life on earth... and will die a spiritual
babe. Whether a child of God died a spiritual babe or a spiritual giant... they
are both EQUALLY justified, regenerated and adopted and indwelt by the Holy
Spirit of God, and shall be equally glorified - all based upon the works and merits
of Christ. This is the eternal aspect of salvation. There is the temporal or
timely aspect here and now in this life. That's where the gospel ministry plays
a most vital role.
This work of making disciples of God's children - nurturing and instructing them all that Christ has commanded - has been committed to the church. Making disciples of God's children through the gospel ministry is a 1000 world of difference from making God's children through the gospel ministry. The standard reformed folks have confused and confounded the two... thus ending up with all the inconsistency and contradiction, and repudiating salvation by free grace alone by direct implication.
a. Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in the open to declare the glory of God. Understandable in the remote areas where those early times where the gospel could not be reached.
However, with the advances of communications, the gospel could not be reached to them.
## I am trying hard to understand your question - if you are asking a question at all. Maybe you are making a statement. Do you intend to write, 'IT IS the norm...' (a statement) or 'IS IT the norm...'? I am not sure... sorry, I can't read your mind.
However, please let me say this. It is obvious that if the gospel had not been brought to them... they would be no church there... and without the NT church there, there would be no identifying with the church. Wherever they are, because they are regenerated children of God, their lives would be comparatively quite different from those around them, like that of Cornelius, Lydia, and the Ethiopian eunuch in the NT... you can easily quote many of them in the OT... Abel, Enoch, Noah. Abimelech, etc.
During the OT, BEFORE the establishment of the distinct group of people who would eventually become the covenant nation of Israel, all God's children are scattered in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, they were WITHOUT any external INSTITUTION to identify themselves with. During the OT, AFTER the calling of Abraham, a specific group of God's people begins to become externally identifiable. These became a covenant nation of God's people... there was then an external institution with which God's children could identify themselves as God's children. Throughout the OT, we read of some Gentiles (God's regenerated children) that came to know and identified themselves with this external institution (Israel). But still, by and large, God's children in most parts of the world knew nothing about this external institution of God's people.
Please also remember that the people belonging to the special genealogical line that is carefully traced from Adam to Christ were NOT the only elect of God. So often people make the serious mistake to think that those people associated with that Christological genealogical line were the ONLY children of God and that there were none outside of it. There were, and are God's elect found in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
Let me be realistic, and say that the advancement in communication does not help much in the matter for several very basic reasons. It has helped the situation SLIGHTLY only. Can you think of some?
b. If in the present era, regenerated people with the fore knowledge of God, do these people have no opportunity to join a church? Then the next question is "how would the people of God praise HIM day and night?" The gathered church may be lacking in numbers to corporate prayers and worship. Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?
##
Good questions... I had asked them myself... several years ago. All divine
truth is consistent and harmonious.
By 'in this present era,' I supposed you mean the gospel age in the general sense, and the 21st century in particular, where advanced communication tools are available. I have suggested that the advancement in communication does not ensure, and remotely means that in this present era every regenerated elect will be reached with the gospel. I leave it to you to think why.
Do you know that Cornelius, before the gospel message was brought to him, prayed to God ALWAYS? "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always." Acts 10:1-2. One may object, 'O he learned to do so from the Jews.' Fair enough. Who taught Abraham to do the same? And who taught Enoch, and Noah, and Mechizedek? There were certainly no Jews then! And who teach those in every nation mentioned by apostle Peter in Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Remember, Apostle Peter, under divine inspiration was MAKING A MOMENTOUS STATEMENT OF FACT. He did not say, in every nation, whosoever will fear God and will work righteousness, will be accepted with God, i.e. apostle Peter did NOT make a STATEMENT OF CONDITIONAL OFFER.
These people praise God day and night - PRIOR to and therefore WITHOUT the benefits of the gospel ministry - by their reverent fear of God and do works of righteousness. That's the way the most enlightened saints praise God day and night TOO. The great difference lies in the QUALITY of their respective praises. A child may know God as his Father (see Romans 8:14-15), and yet know next to nothing about him, and praise him and love him in a vague uninformed manner; and another child of the same Father, because of the benefits of a FAITHFUL and BIBLICAL (much is not) gospel ministry may know so much more about his Father, and much more... and praise Him and love Him in a much-informed manner. See the point?
<Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?>
## If the regenerated people [i.e. already given eternal salvation by God's free grace] are not called out by the ministry of the gospel to faith, then they are deprived of all the blessings - including the instruction concerning how, when, and why of their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, and the ordinance of baptism as a visible and vivid picture of those things - that the gospel ministry is ORDAINED by God to bring them.
That
is why the ministry of the gospel is VERY IMPORTANT... but ONLY VERY IMPORTANT
for the purpose it was ordained for by God. It is VERY IMPORTANT, not to bring
eternal salvation to God's elect, but it is very important as the means to
bring temporal salvation in this life here and now.
A child of God that is deprived of the gospel ministry and all the temporal blessings that come with it is like a child that is deprived of the blessings of a loving home and all that comes with it. But whatever deprivation a child of God might suffer, he is not one iota less than a child of God. This statement DOES NOT lessen the urgency of seeking out God's children with the gospel ministry.
The 'standard reformed' folks insist that the gospel ministry is VERY IMPORTANT because it is the means appointed by God, to be used by them, to give eternal salvation to the elect. This is erroneous.
God's children, in every generation, in every place, whether they have the benefits of the ordinance of baptism that comes along with the gospel ministry, unmistakably BEAR WITNESS to the truth that they have been raised to newness of life THROUGH their reverent fear of God and their works of righteousness. That separates them from all those around them who are still dead in trespasses and sin. The gospel ministry alone will give them light and understanding of what has happened to them by God's free grace.
Let me illustrate the truth. There was a time in high school when we begin to learn about the reproductive system in our science classes - about the wriggly sperms and the eggs, and fertilization, etc. Before that, you and I know next to nothing about our origin, where we come from, etc. Then we were instructed those wonderful truths! Imagine our older siblings who never go to school... and remained ignorant of those wonderful truths about their origin, about the true identity of their parents, etc... their ignorance does not make them any less children or any less human. See the point.
Imagine one of the siblings died early... deprived of the benefits of medical help, and knew very little of his parents... these are all very great losses... but all these do not make him any less child or any less human than the other siblings.
OK, this leads naturally to the next BIG question... and I like this one. I have asked it myself too. So, men made wise by God think alike, and fool never differs!
<By now you may have realized we asked amiss and stupid questions. What bothers me especially is "why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well-being of one's life while on earth. Declaring faith in the open would be like Adam & Eve in fellowship before their fall. Fellowship in the church is a type for the thing to come in heaven. Pastor, I am asking the ridiculous and putting forth questions with obvious answers. As you mentioned often, what is not said carries the true intentions.>
## I don't see nor realize any asking amiss or stew-pig questions. I think they are all legitimate, but whether they are ridiculous and have obvious answers, I can't say. I would be grateful if you can explain.
I am glad that you are especially bothered by this particular issue! You should be bothered by anything that is not consistent with the revealed Word of God, and seek for consistency by seeking to rightly divide the word of truth - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15)
I want to suggest that behind your good question "why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well being of one's life while on earth" there lurks a presupposition or preconceived notion, even though such notion is unbiblical and contrary to all observable facts in life.
I surmise that the preconceived notion is this: It is God's will that ALL His children (i.e. the regenerated elect) with full mental capacity will hear the gospel preached and enjoy the opportunity for the fuller well being of their life while on earth... i.e. be gathered into the NT church with all the blessings that come with it.
How wonderful if this had been the case... I would to God that this is the case indeed. But it is most certainly not - not only contrary to Scriptures but also contrary to observable facts.
This
notion leads to some strange ideas.
First,
it assumes that there is no elect of God in all those places and all those
people groups (i.e. ethnic nations) where the gospel has never reached; They presumptuous notion at best.
Second,
it assumes that none of the regenerate (mentally capable) elect is MISSED by
the ministry of the gospel in any place in any generation; i.e. the gospel
ministry has reached every regenerate (mentally capable, understood... the
gospel ministry is intended for such ONLY, to begin with) in every place in
every generation. Worse than presumptuous to claim so.
Third, this notion is a twin of the related error... gospel regeneration. Such believes, 'no gospel preaching means no regeneration, no eternal life, and no eternal salvation,' period. This is plain ignorance and confusion. Scriptures plainly declare, 'faith comes by hearing,' and not life comes by hearing. It is no gospel no faith and no conversion.
The
triune God has most assured declared that He will sovereignly and freely do certain
things for ALL His elect people... Read this very popular by most misunderstood
passage again,
"And we know that all things work together for good to them
that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom
he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his
Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he
did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also
justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30.
This passage speaks of ALL the elect... ALL them that are called according to God's eternal purpose... and what God has sovereignly and freely done for these SAME people. So please NOTE very carefully what is specifically stated that God did for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. Please note most carefully also what is NOT stated at all.
The things that God has sovereignly and freely done for ALL those that had been called according to His eternal purpose are THESE: foreknowledge, predestination, call, justification, and glorification. Here is a most wonderful and perfect and complete 5-links chain.
Please note carefully that these five are SO-LINKED in such a manner that they do not allow anything to come in between them. What God has joined together let not man put asunder by adding useless and odious links of their own invention to the perfect and complete chain. Man's activity in any form or degree is ENTIRELY and ABSOLUTELY excluded.
Foreknowledge (setting His eternal love) and predestination took place before the foundation of the world. The call takes place in time... at God's own appointed and accepted time - "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word [Christ] and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..." 1689.10.1. Justification mentioned here also takes place in time, in conjunction with the effectual call to grace and salvation. "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..." 1689.11.1
Note most carefully that the effectual call to grace and salvation, have to be an effectual call and NOT the gospel call because it is obvious beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are elect that are not called by the gospel, but ABSOLUTELY everyone and all of the elect is effectually called to grace and salvation. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is a gospel call. These obtuse and stubborn folks refused to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the call here as gospel call destroys the chain... and excludes many elects from glorification.
Note most carefully too that the justification spoken about is a justification that must be true to EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. And this justification simply and obviously CANNOT be justification by faith through the hearing of the gospel. This is the justification by God's free grace that is true of EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. This happens when He declares an elect under the condemnation of death to be righteous by forgiving all his sins and imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is justification by faith. These obtuse and stubborn folks refused to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the justification here as evidential and experiential justification, they destroy the chain... and shall exclude many elects from glorification.
From this passage, you see the plain declaration of what God has willed, decreed, and ordained what He shall perform for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. We must be careful not to break that unbreakable chain and add more useless and pathetic links of our own imagination... like the links of the gospel call, faith, repentance, progressive sanctification, etc... and force the Scriptures to say what it does not say. Let God be true and every man a liar!!!
God has most certainly commanded the NT churches to labour and to seek the lost sheep and gather them into the churches. And we are to do that faithfully and seek and gather them into the visible church. God ALSO cares for the well-being and comfort of His children while they travel through this world to their eternal home - that work is delegated to the church. At the best of times, most often the church fails very miserably. But sovereign grace alone ensures all God's elect shall be glorified. Very humbling and comforting.
Many deluded and misguided men think God needs them to house His elect in heaven!!! What arrogance and presumption. "Him that glories, let him glories in the Lord alone" - don't betray any indication that his eternal salvation is somehow remotely dependent upon something man does.
It would be wonderful if God had willed that each and every of His elect would enjoy the gospel blessings to the degree that apostle Paul had enjoyed... but God hasn't, otherwise His will shall surely come to pass.
I
have rambled on, but hope it is not all wind,
sing
