The sons of God, and the Son of God

 

November 13, 2019
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02TkKhJ1ftGdPrF3XjLpMXvQUbRi1wT7uGcjpp1xxdSrxra2Ma7sz5nPzAWjkJJ54tl

When the sons of God took on flesh, contrary to God's will, they brought destruction; when the eternal Word was made flesh, according to God's will, He secured redemption.

36 Comments
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Reggie Lee
That is an amazing concept

Sing
Reggie Lee, go to this post "angels that sinned" and answer the questions posed.
The study exercise itself will do you good.
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214998439569924

Joe Chin
Good one! I didn't think of that connection before.

Adam Wells
Joe Chin, does the scriptures say that the sons of God took on flesh? Please read here: http://www.letgodbetrue.com/.../nephilim-sons-of-god-word...

Sing
Adam, thanks for the link. We have gone through it. Didn't convince me.
Do the Scriptures say that godly Sethites marry ungodly women?
If you are interested, consider the questions posed in the post here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214998439569924
The exercise itself will do you good.

Sonny Bonner
That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.

Sing F Lau
Sonny Bonner That which is spirit can take on the flesh is a HARD biblical fact harder to ignore.

Some elect angels took on flesh throughout the Bible to run divine errands.

What prevents the fallen angels from doing the same, in transgression against God, with the intention to thwart/circumvent the curse in Gen 3:15?

Adam Wells
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/second-peter-two.pdf

Sing
I have studied through it. There are a few things I can't agree with, unfortunately.
I'm preaching through 2Pet 2 now. That's why the subject of the "angels that sinned" came to mind.

Sing
Adam, have you tried answering the simple questions on the angels that sinned?

Adam Wells
Are you referring to the questions in the link you sent?

Sing
Adam Wells, I assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1.. "God and Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1." What was that sin then?

He also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment." What was that sin that God saved the rest of the angels from?
(notes in verse 4)

Please say hello to Ma'am Fawn and the boys for me.

Thanks.

Adam Wells
John 8:44 says that the devil "abode not in the truth" which equals Jude 1:6 "kept not their first estate." Other than these 2 references, I can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and makes sense before creation. ("He was a murderer from the beginning" refers to creation.) It is a great stretch to try to read Gen 6 into being the sin spoken of in Peter. The argument is not only weak but simply nonsensical as there is no evidence that angels can take on flesh.

Thanks for the greetings!

Sing
Let me understand you correctly first. So the angels that sinned refers to that initial rebellion against God that got them cast out of heaven? Was that the sin and occasion?

Sing
So you are equating the DEVIL not abiding in the truth the same as the ANGELS not keeping their first estate? Do I understand you right?

Adam Wells
Sing F Lau ... Yes. Angels leaving their first estate does not mean that they were no more angels in the same way that Adam leaving his first estate doesn't mean he became an ape but rather a sinner.

Sing 
Does your "yes" affirm that for Jude 1:6 and 2Pet 2:4 "the angels that sinned" refer to the initial rebellion that got them thrown out of heaven,
OR
Does your "yes" affirm that the DEVIL not abiding in the truth is the same thing as the ANGELS not keeping their first estate? 

Sing
Adam @ "John 8:44 says that the devil "abode not in the truth" which equals Jude 1:6 "kept not their first estate." Other than these 2 references, I can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and makes sense before creation. ("He was a murderer from the beginning" refers to creation.) It is a great stretch to try to read Gen 6 into being the sin spoken of in Peter. The argument is not only weak but simply nonsensical as there is no evidence that angels can take on flesh."

==========
" I can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and makes sense before creation" - of course, you can't, there isn't such a thing to be found in the Scriptures. But who is saying that?

Angels (I supposed NOT fallen yet) that sinned BEFORE CREATION are mentioned by Brother Jonathan in his explanation on 2Pet 2:4.

Let's assume that unfallen angels did sin BEFORE CREATION, what was that sin? What was the consequence of that sin?

In 2Pet 2:4, it is some of the fallen angels that sinned in that they took upon themselves human nature and propagated themselves with the daughters of men. This explains the catastrophic and universal moral degeneration. 

Your statement "there is no evidence that angels can take on flesh" befits someone who has never read the Bible, or a Bible reader who is WILFULLY ignorant; this is said with all due respect.

Sing
Reposting a comment from above:
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I assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1. "God and Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1."
QUESTION: What was that sin then?

He also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment."
QUESTION: What was that sin God saved the rest of the angels from?
(notes in verse 4)

Sing
Adam @ "Yes. Angels leaving their first estate does not mean that they were no more angels in the same way that Adam leaving his first estate doesn't mean he became an ape but rather a sinner."
======
Nice try, Adam.
Adam Wells who left the estate of singlehood for the estate of matrimony is still human but is now joined to a woman.
That's one way to use the word estate.
The eternal Word was made flesh, united with flesh and became God-man, the Son of God. He became what he wasn't BUT He did not cease to be what He has always been, Divine.

2Pet 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.

Jude 6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Do you see the connection between their first estate and their own habitation? Their own habitation is their NATIVE God-ordained spirit realm.

Those angels that sinned joined themselves to human flesh; they kept not their first estate, i.e. they forsook their first and native estate; they left their OWN HABITATION, their own habitation is in the realm of spirit. They left their own habitation and trespassed into the habitation of man.

They left it and entered the physical realm, with sinister intentions and devastating effects, the details are recorded in Gen 6.

BUT grace intervened.

Adam Wells
The problem with eisegesis is the person doing it doesn't think they are. You want it to say that so you have read it into the text.

Sing
Adam Wells, that applies to you and every student of God's word too. Don't tell me you are incapable of eisegesis.
So, tell us exactly what is your interpretation, and then we can discuss its merit. 🙂

Sing
Adam Wells, have you tried answering those questions posed on 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6?

Adam Wells
Sing F Lau, I agree with the interpretation given in the links from letgodbetrue. I've no need to restate it as it is clear and precise.

Sing F Lau
Since you do agree with the interpretation, I assume that you have understood what's stated there. That's a reasonable assumption, I hope.

Then help me answer the two questions I have posed on what's stated there. I reposted my two questions but they were ignored or maybe just overlooked.
Let me re-repost it here; this is the third time.

----------------

I assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1. " God and Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1."
QUESTION: What was that sin then?

He also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment."
QUESTION: What was that sin God saved the rest of the angels from?
(His notes in verse 4)
---------
Thanks.

Sing
Adam Wells, This is Brother Jonathan's note on "The angels that sinned."

A. If God judged angels so hard, He will surely judge men defying Him (Job 4:18).
B. Compare Jude’s version of fallen angels and their judgment by God (Jude 1:6).
C. God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment (Mat 25:31; I Ti 5:21).
D. God and Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1.
Questions: What was that great event occurring before Gen 1:1?
What sin and judgement did God save the rest of the angels from?

Tell us, please.

Adam Wells
Sing F Lau You and I both know that the scriptures do not irrefutably tell us what Satan's "original" sin was. The great event then is referring to Satan's sin, however, we are not told specifically what that sin is. The rest of the angels referred to are elect angels, hence the reason they didn't fall from their estate.

Sing
Thank you for responding to my question somewhat.
"You and I both know that the scriptures ...." - you should speak for yourself; you know not what I don't know.

Would 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 be references to that original sin committed before Gen 1:1? Please answer this question. Thanks.

Was it Satan's original sin (before Gen 1:1) that caused him and his host to be cast out of heaven or was that the result of another sin?

Thanks. Keeping talking. You are helping me learn a few things.

Adam Wells
Sing F Lau we have already said that these references the Fall of Satan which was due to his original sin. If you know what that sin was say it plainly.
(sing: What is Satan's origin sin?)

Sing
Thanks for affirming that. I want to know what exactly you believe by stating them.
What was the consequence (to Satan and his host) of the original sin of Satan (before Gen 1:1)?

Adam Wells
Sing F Lau - the aforementioned scriptures answer that... We do not read those passages as referencing Gen 6, which has nothing to do with angels.

Sing
I'll demonstrate to you that that view is much worse than weak and nonsensical; it is self-contradictory and inconsistent in many ways. I will do that when I have access to my laptop. (Typing this from my toilet seat!)

Adam Wells
Please also name the "original" sin of Satan along with the scripture which states it. (No further explanation required just one sentence/word.) I would like to hear this.

Sing F Lau
You have said a few things about the "original sin" of Satan; let me quote from above.
1. " Sing F Lau You and I both know that the scriptures do not irrefutably tell us what Satan's "original" sin was. The great event then is referring to Satan's sin, however, we are not told specifically what that sin is."

2. "Sing F Lau we have already said that these references the Fall of Satan which was due to his original sin. If you know what that sin was say it plainly."

Adam, I may not know what the original sin was since you have stated that "the scriptures do not irrefutably tell us what Satan's "original" sin was."

But I can show you that to 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 CAN'T POSSIBLY be what you termed as Satan's original sins. To insist that they are, you have to commit many contradictions and inconsistencies.

Sing
Adam Wells, here is a statement on that "original" sin in today's proverb commentary.
The first sin in the universe was pride – Satan’s pride (I Tim 3:6). His arrogant ambition was to be like the most high God (Is 14:12-14). And he was punished for it. How severely? He and his angels are reserved for eternal torment in hell forever (Is 14:15; Matt 25:41; II Pet 2:4; Rev 20:10). The devil’s great abilities cannot save him at all.

The first sin in the universe, therefore, that sin must be AFTER Gen 1:1, unless you insist that there was a universe BEFORE Gen 1:1, and that angels were created before the creation week.

You said you agreed to all that. That's why I'm asking.

You asserted: "Sing F Lau I agree with the interpretation given in the links from letgodbetrue. I've no need to restate it as it is clear and precise"

Sing F Lau
The first sin in the universe was pride - Satan's pride. What was the consequence? Satan and his lackeys were expelled from heaven and cast down to the earth.

The specific sin mentioned in 2Pet and Jude was committed by some fallen angels.

What was the sin? Was it pride?
Go and reread the two passages.

What was the consequence for those angels involved? Cast down to the earth?
Go and reread the two passages.

Are the two sins - i.e. the 'original sin of Satan and the sin committed by some fallen angels mentioned in 2Pet and Jude - the same?
Go and reread the two passages.
Compare them with the "original sin" of Satan.

Any more questions?
======

postscript

Scriptures say the original sin of Satan was pride; the consequence of that sin was that God expelled Satan and his hosts out of heaven and cast them down to the earth. (Since they were cast down to the earth, it has to be AFTER Genesis 1:1; there was no earth before Genesis 1:1.)

Scriptures say the sin committed by some fallen angels recorded in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 was not keeping their first estate, but departing from their own habitation; the consequence of that sin: God has reserved them in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are in complete captivity.

They are two completely different sins with two completely different consequences. 
Yet many theologians and their followers insist they are the same! Whatever has happened to common sense? 
Only the wilfully blind fail to see the differences. 

Someone inquired about Judas Iscariot?

"As a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."
Sheep and goats belong to one flock of the shepherd;
that's the most obvious, plain and common sense.
Some insist that the goats are not part of the flock!
Then why does the shepherd need to separate them?
Of course, some think the wild GOATS strayed into the flock 
and got mixed up with the flock of sheep that belongs to Christ;
What an insolent insult against Christ as the Shepherd!

Laban had flocks made up of sheep and goats (and cattle). Gen 30:31.

  

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10203026549440153
October 20, 2014

It is common and popular to see the sheep and goats (Mt 25:31-46) as representing the elect and non-elect, respectively.

Let me suggest these for your consideration:

1. All three parables in Mt 25 are all about the same theme...
- the wise and foolish virgins of the One Bridegroom
- the faithful and unfaithful servants of the One Master
- the sheep and goats of the One Shepherd

Does this suggestion help to direct your thought on the sheep and the goats a bit?

"Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old." Matthew 13…
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21 Comments

eSun
Poultry farmers always have this particular problem. Rats or rodents are uninvited guests in the barns or poultry houses. They, not only bite or nibble the chicks when these poultry are young but they continue unashamedly steal from the feeders. These rodents eat from the same feeders, drink from the same drinkers and take shelters in the barns. The question is: are they owned by the good husbandry man? Absolutely no! As a simpleton farmer, I cannot think beyond this line. I raised my chickens since they are chicks and these belong to me...surely I cannot and do not want to have ownership for rats and rodents!

Sing F Lau
LOL... if I'm a shepherd, I would most certainly love the problem of having goats joining my flock of sheep... if there are such goats around to do that! Chickens and rats/rodents are poor comparisons.

Maybe chickens and turkeys would be a comparable comparison with sheep and goats. If I were a poultry farmer, I would love to see uninvited guests of turkeys joining my chickens! I fatt datt loh! <lol>

In real life in the 1st century, shepherds keeping sheep and goats in their flock was normal and common!

In the parable, the Lord Jesus uses the sheep to represent those who are believing and minister to His people, and the goats those that are unbelieving, thus failing to minister to His people.

Sheep and goats are in the same contrast between the wise and the foolish virgins, and the faithful and unfaithful servants.

eSun
Just wonder if Judas Iscariot was a goat when he decided to betray the Lord?

Sing F Lau
Judas' betrayal of the Lord Jesus Christ is wicked and despicable indeed.
While many believe Judas' act to be the most despicable, I don't. I fear there are so many pastors and teachers who are FAR WORSE than Judas in their betrayal of Jesus Christ. Judas sold Jesus Christ for 30 pieces of silver because he was disillusioned and disappointed that Jesus was not going to be a political messiah to set up a political kingdom, and have Judas himself be the Finance Mini$ter!

Others sell Him for filthy lucre of a far greater amount for preaching their own lies and fables, thus betraying their Lord in a far worse sense.

Judas' betrayal is far less serious, comparatively. He had too little light. There are many Judas in Christ's kingdom!!!

Charles Page
Paul was the chief of sinners!

Charles Page
Judas can't hold a candle to Paul!!!

Sing F Lau
Judas did hold the money bag! <lol>

eSun
So was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived? Is he found amongst the elders encircled the great & mighty throne of God praising Him?

eSun
If there is an answer to the above then we can expect the same destiny for those earlier described as filthy pastors and teachers.

[They are not filthy pastors and teachers, they are polished pastors and teachers who betrayed Christ because of their love of filthy lucre!  How words are so easily twisted by woolliness. It's frightening indeed! sing]

Charles Page
the question is was Judas an elect? If he is of the elect He will be in Heaven!

Charles Page
Being a goat or sheep has nothing to do with the election.
[AMEN. It has to do with discipleship among Christ's flock. sing]

Sing F Lau
Good questions; and they always help towards getting closer to the truth. Questions that can expose the inconsistencies and contradictions in an interpretation will save us from errors.

Your question "So was Judas Iscariot a goat whilst he lived?" turned my mind to what Apostle Paul so solemnly declared in his epistle to the Galatians... --- "8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

I'm not aware if Apostle Paul was as solemn as this in another matter. Preaching another gospel other than that which has been preached by the Apostle Paul is a betrayal of Jesus Christ FAR WORSE than the despicable betrayal committed by Judas Iscariot!

Judas' love and hope for an earthly messianic kingdom most certainly caused him to behave like a goat - unbelieving in the kingdom of heaven, and thus failing to minister to those who belong to it. Instead, in his misguided zeal, he betrayed the King of the kingdom of heaven!

eSun
Two questions:
Question 1. Beg my ignorance, where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot was disillusioned that there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he desired to be a finance minister of this earthly kingdom?
Question 2: According to your understanding goats are elected people of God who lived miserably with much disbelief and when they repented whilst still living then they become sheep. Apostle Peter was a goat when he denied the Lord thrice but later became a sheep. Right? But he repented and the Lord reinstated him because he was a chosen people of God. As we know our earthly body still have the remnant of sins; and I fear to depart from this world as a believing goat. I beg to God to be merciful so that I breathe my last breath as an elected sheep and not as an elected goat. But my sinful dwelling self is at war daily. How? Can anyone help me to be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an elected goat? But then James 2:14-26 stated clearly in gist faith without work is dead faith. So then do goats have good works to illustrate faith? If these goats already have works to shine forth faith in the Lord Jesus Christ then why call these creatures as goats? They are sheep!!

Sing F Lau
"... where is the text specifically mentioning Judas Iscariot was disillusioned that there was no earthly messianic kingdom of which he desired to be a finance minister of this earthly kingdom?"

There is much evidence that the greater part of the Jewish people was looking forward to an earthly messianic kingdom... and this carnal expectation was very alive with the apostles for a long time. Their minds were still on it when they asked, "When they, therefore, were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" It was an error that took a long time to dislodge from their mind.

In Mt 20:
20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

She too was expecting an earthly kingdom to be established by Jesus the Messiah, and wanted her sons to have positions of great power and honour in the earthly kingdom.

In Luke 24 we hear the words of two very downcast and disillusioned disciples... for their trust in an earthly theocratic kingdom was completely crushed and busted by the events that had happened...

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

That's the general background on the popular expectation of an earthly kingdom to be established by the promised Messiah!

It was very likely that the truth of the spiritual nature of the messianic kingdom Christ has established, and its implications, were early understood and grasped by Judas. Such a Messiah and the messianic kingdom were repugnant and contrary to all his expectations, and benefits.

Judas was one of the 12, and was the one who had the money bag (Joh 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein) - naturally he would think of himself as the finance minister in the earthly messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ.

And the betrayal requires a motive... maybe others can offer a more credible motive!

I don't know whether this answers your question.

Sing F Lau
I gather that the gist of Q2 lies in this sentence... "Can anyone help me to be an assured elected sheep of Christ rather than an elected goat?"

God elected, and save a people through His Son Jesus Christ alone, thus fitting them for eternal glory.

1 Pet 1:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We shall enter that inheritance at the general resurrection to glory.

God elected a people... not sheep and goats. Sheep and goats are pictures used in the parable to describe believing obedient and the unbelieving disobedient among His redeemed people.

Sheep don't turn into goats, and goats don't turn into sheep - but God's children can most certainly behave like sheep, and goats... as presented to us in Mt 25.

Apostle Peter gave an excellent answer to your inquiry: "give all diligence to make your calling and election sure..."

2 Pet 1
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

There are likely other things in Q2 that I have not answered.

Sing F Lau
got to go... Wed evening Bible study at 8pm.

eSun
As you have said God's children do not turn into goats or sheep but rather their behaviour viz a viz their obedience to Christ. In the case of Judas Iscariot can you conclude Judas was an elect with a 'goatly' demeanour when he turned against the Lord? Today despite being a 'goatly' elect, Judas Iscariot is in heaven with our sovereign God! Can you be certain Judas Iscariot's resting place? So also the many misguided teachers and pastors who taught wrongly. They are wrong doctrinally but we cannot judge them for at the present moment of time as they are 'goatly' but surely in due time they shall become 'sheeply'. Many of us in the past behaved 'goatly' but God opened our eyes and we become as 'sheeply' and we are certain our rest is in heaven. So generally speaking let no one speak ill anyone who 'sin' by way action (teaching wrong doctrine) or practice. We cannot for sure by the reasoning speak against our God's elects, right?
[A child of God DOES NOT revert back and forth as "sheep-goat...sheep-goat" throughout his life. They are terms describing his overall life.]

Sing F Lau
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." Amen!

We are given a wonderful glimpse of the glorious heaven prepared for us!

Sing F Lau
You have gone a lot further. I'm only dealing with the text in Mt 25:31-46 where the sheep and goats are mentioned.
I have no interest to speak ill of anyone, or desiring to decide who are sheep and goats among the Lord's flock. I sincerely pray that all are like the people represented by the sheep in Mt 25:31-46! I do want to be numbered and counted among such, I sure do!

I do however want to rightly divide the word of truth in that passage, and I am convinced the goats represent NOT the non-elect (as is so popularly understood) but the unbelieving elect; and were judged, like the foolish virgins, and the unfaithful servants.

You inquired about Judas... and the hideousness of his act of betraying his Lord, and I suggested that given the little light that he had, his betrayal is relatively minor compared to the betrayal committed by others who had so much light, with the complete Scriptures in their hand.

eSun
However, I have yet to be guided to whether Judas Iscariot was an elected goat and now worshipping God in the Celestial City or not. Wonder aloud - I know where is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I know where is Paul our dear brother. However, can I lovingly call Judas Iscariot a dear brother though he was 'goat'? Is he also numbered with the above-mentioned saints in Heaven?

[If you can accept the Bible's teaching on the intermediate state - the temporal state between death and resurrection - your most profound and difficult question is solved.]

Sing F Lau
Understanding the sheep and goats in Mt 25:31-46 as speaking of God's children among the Jews who are believing and unbelieving in the Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ makes me, I and myself to be sober in all things and walk circumspectly.

Since you are interested in Judas Iscariot's case, I will answer your questions in light of my understanding of Mt 25:31-46.

Judas Iscariot is one of the elect of God. [This is an issue much debated... my understanding of free grace has made it less difficult for me to acknowledge that he is one among the elect of God, but unbelieving, like many among God's children! ] He wasn't an elected goat. The elect is NOT SPOKEN of in terms of goat. His unbelief in Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah caused him to be described as a goat.]

His unbelief and betrayal are no worse than those to whom Apostle Peter preached on the day of Pentecost and was converted...

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

They by their wicked hands have crucified and slain Jesus Christ! Judas' betrayal is relatively minor compared with what Apostle Peter charged his hearers with. Judas was so filled with remorse for what he did... but people just write off his REPENTANCE as cheapskate remorse... "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, REPENTED himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders."

Believing Judas to be among the goat, he would be where Mt 25:31-46 tell us where goats are... UNTIL the day of resurrection, when he must be delivered up, and be glorified, and enter the eternal inheritance that Christ, His and mine Redeemer had secured for him.

Keep asking Brother. I like your questions!!! 

Modern Gospels Need Modern Marketing Techniques!

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid0A6apZqeavwpCmW9V7ZiMwUj4iAePZvK7y9Xd7A1nPpqBER1rbvLWpn8qEfj33RaWl
January 23, 2011

Modern gospels need modern marketing techniques!

Christ's method was like this:
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.

This is in stark contrast to a lot of modern mission activities that are more like money-based social activities centre missions. This will produce banana disciples and rice Christians.

64 Comments
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Sing F Lau
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.

"And if the son of peace be there" - the son of peace exist first, and Christ-sent preacher comes along, empty-handed BUT the gospel... announcing the gospel to him.

A son of peace who has been taken care of by God until His preacher brings the gospel to him can do very well WITHOUT the cheap and demeaning enticements to believe the gospel.

Those cheap enticements - modern man's marketing strategy has SPAWNED so many counterfeit and banana-churchians!

This is entirely different from doing good to the household of faith. So don't rave and shot in that direction <lol>.

Sing F Lau
People despise money politics... but they are so engrossed with money-evangelism!

Janet Hill Bell
All well-said! God bless you Brother!

Bill Taylor
Amen, Brother Sing

Sing F Lau
Westcott and Hort will always have their pettycott and haughty followers. I won't waste time arguing with them.

Dan England
The Apostle Paul had a wonderful attitude. He said, "What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice, yes, and I will rejoice."

Philippians 1:18
The forces that come to bear in a Christians life is strong in its work to make us comformed to this age. Whatever age we live in. Is only purity of docrine rewarded with eternal life? If the basics of salvation being taught are biblical and intact in a church, then whats the problem with the things that pass away at Christ's return? Or is accuracy to the "Letter" necessary? Wouldn't that doctrine make one a modern day Pharisee?

Kevin Teraoka
it should read salute no man UNLESS you are lower enlisted in the military and pass by an officer. Or if you are deployed in a battle zone and want to do a quick sniper check 😉

Dan England
That is so funny Kevin. That happened in Vietnam, but not Iraq or Afganistan! I was kind of ignorant about saluting. I only saluted if they looked at me.

William D Martin
It is so easy to throw rocks at the church and people who make their life th work of the gospel. Dan, I like the quote from Phillipians 1:18.

I often wonder what the apostle would say, if he attended some of our so called churches.

We all know that the church we see on Sunday morning is often not the real church.

Jesus used the parable of the wheat and tares, for our instruction. Don't pull the tares out but let them grow together with the wheat. They will be destroyed at harvet time.

William D Martin
He also said when speaking to Peter, 'On this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not overcome it. If Christ does not build the church it will fall.

Sing F Lau
Or is accuracy to the "Letter" necessary? Wouldn't that doctrine make one a modern-day Pharisee?
=======
We are saved to know the truth.

And if knowing the truth is unimportant, then hold one's peace. To believe rightly concerning the truth of God is one aspect of honoring God. To misrepresent him is a disgrace and reproach, shameful.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

William D Martin
I wonder how many of us are able to without any degree of doubt judge another believer as to his standing in Christ.

William D Martin
Sing will you stand in that place of absolute certainty? Except about your own standing with the Lord Jesus. Read Romans 14 and rightly divide.

Sing F Lau
William, be very clear and stick to the point.

I am not interested in anyone's standing in the Lord MUCH LESS judge another believer as to his standing in Christ. You may want to do that. I know RBs love to do that. I don't want to usurp Christ's sole prerogative.

I am only concerned with what a man claims what the Bible teaches. A man can believe ...anything he wishes... but the moment he claims that what he believes is what the Scriptures say, then I want to compare... I have a Berean spirit. Stay and chat along if you have the same spirit.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Dan England
This is what I believe Sing, Richard:
1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
1Co 15:6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
1Co 15:7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
1Co 15:8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

By the above I am a born again Christian. If anyone confirms they also fit into the above 8 verses then we have the right hand of fellowship, together we endeavor to glorify God. And like the Apostles, with whom I have fellowship with, I also have fellowship with the Father and the Son by the Holy Spirit.

Now anything beyond the above requirement for salvation is opinion.

Does that mean we can't discuss the things around the edges? No. As long as those things do not come between our fellowship. As long as those things do not take precedent over a human being. As long as we remember through Christ we are to love each other.

Sing F Lau
Two men, both believing the passage heartily, one is a free-willer, and another grace alone; one a gospel regenerationist, another 'without gospel means; one believes in order to have life, the other believes because he has been given life; one believes that Christ died for all, the other 'for His sheep only'... etc etc...

Do you think fellowship is possible between these two BROTHERS?

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Yes, they can be brothers. It is all about Christ. We submit to Him.
Then we stand side by side at the throne of Grace. Modern song

'"He ain't heavly, He's my bother!" Modern enough?

Sing F Lau
They don't have to do anything to be brothers - that comes by divine doing.
As Amos asked, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" When BOTH are submitted to His teaching, then fellowship between two brothers is POSSIBLE. This is an ancient truth.

I prefer good ole hymns than modern song! <LOL>

Dan England
Why not. When doctrine takes the place of what Jesus did for us it is a cult.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
The main thing about a CULT is the answer to "Who is Jesus?"
It is all about Him.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Back to Brother.... We are brothers because we share the same father. WE share the God of the Bible. Adonai Elohim. The God of Abraham Issac and Jacob.The father that loved the world so much he sent his only begotten son to die for us. That makes us brothers. Our Father.

Sing F Lau
Yes exactly, who is Jesus and what He has done! Some believe in a Jesus who only made salvation possible. Others believe that Jesus died for all...some believe in a hippy Jesus knocking pathetically at the heart-door of sinners heart... there are all sorts of Jesus believed by all sort of people.

So the good question is: who is Jesus? Indeed, it is ALL ABOUT HIM and WHAT HE has done. When there is no agreement on that, fellowship is not possible.

Can two BROTHERS walk together, except they be agreed?

Apostle Paul even say that some brothers must be marked and be avoid. Others must be excommunicated and treated as publicans!

So brotherhood DOES NOT automatically guarantee fellowship. Brothers who share the same Father may actually believe vastly difference things which make fellowship impossible.

Dan England
Its only impossible if you make it impossible Sing.

Sing F Lau
I am a man under command, not what I like or dislike.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Believing lies and error about Jesus is most definitely unfruitful works of darkness.

So, you and I are under different commands. You are autonomous and does what is right in your own eyes, and I will subject myself to my Master's command <LOL>

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
I am very old and I have studied a lot about the Lord. The more I study the more I know I have so much to learn, So with humility I say I have made Yeshua, Jesus Lord of my life and becasue of that I choose to love all others as myself. I have love and brotherhood in my heart. It is very simple for me. Yet very profound. The Holy Spirit, Ruach HaKodesh in Me has given me the vision, power and wisdom to love unconditionally. I do not quibble over small issues. I do not want to divide the body of Christ. There a pleanty of large issues. And even with those. I can say "Father forgive them they know not what they do." It is all about yeilding to Christ and obeying his will. Love the Lord your God with all your soul and heart and strenth and love your neighbor as yourself. It is simple We are responsible only for oursleves. We must judge oursleves. Jesus will judge the rest.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Well my friend in the Lord in Malaysia. I am going to stop for tonight and sleep. God less you and your family in Christ Jesus.

William D Martin
Suzanne Lundy Burnes, good preaching, I believe you were speaking right from the throne. My sentiments exactly. If a person is my brother, has the same spiritual Father, then the Spirit of God who lives in the two of us will cause us to walk together in unity in the Spirit.

Sing F Lau
Please elaborate

Sing F Lau
Now I understand. Forensic man! Thanks.
To a Chinese, very old means 90 and above.
'Old' means 80 and above!

Sing F Lau
Suzanne Lundy Burnes, good preaching, I believe you were speaking right from the throne. My sentiments exactly. If a person is my brother, has the same spiritual Father, then the Spirit of God who lives in the two of us will cause us to walk together in unity in the Spirit.'
=========
With all due respect, that is just PURE SENTIMENTALISM!
EVEN God can't walk with His wayward children, much less his children who are NOT agreed walk together?

It is not asked in vain, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Ain't no spirituality at all to take God's word in vain!

I most certainly hope I would NOT have such woolly sentimentalism when I get older!

Dan England
"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
If your fellowship is with a man, no.
But if your fellowship is with the Apostles and with the Father and His Son Christ Jesus, yes. 1 John 1:1-4. The correct translation is the NASB

The beauty of the Gospel and of what Christ Jesus has done for us in it is, silly simpletons like myself can be saved and carried in the arms of His Holy Spirit all the way to the Father on that glorious day when we are all called home to meet Him!

" in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."

2 Timothy 4:8
And indeed Lord Jesus the next verse is ours too:
"Make every effort to come to me soon;"

Make every effort to come to us soon Lord Jesus!

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Sing, Good morning.
God can walk with whoever he wants to walk with. Look at Jonah,.
Boy, he was wayward!!!!!, But God sent to fish to rescue him and in that situation, Jonah called out to God and God used Jonah ( rebellious as he was before) to go to the biggest sinful city to preach repentance ....All for God's Glory.

Don't miss the blessing of a BIG God who can love the sinner and hate sin. God will use who he wants the way he wants. He is God. Right now we need to see more come to repentance, to fall on their face before the living God, to receive His son Jesus and be saved. I wonder if the time is short.

Those who are believers walking still ( or again) in sin should be helped to return to the Holy Life. You are right, God wants us to be Holy and blameless, but that cannot happen without the Spirit of a loving God in us. Man in his sin nature is hateful, judgemental, lustful, and self-centred wanting to play God by judging everyone else. That is Jesus's job. The redeemed are to be kind, generous, peaceful and full of grace. Our sweet aroma is pleasant to God.

May I suggest you get Mathew Henrey's Commentary of the Entire Bible to add to your studies. It was written in 1700 but is used widely today as still the most respected commentary. John Whitfield read it four times...... the fourth time on his knees.

Your good perspective of God will enlarge greatly and your joy be made full as you study along with your scriptures. God Bless your research...wise men still seek Him.

Note. My husband is going as he often does to prison ministry all day today. He is living what he believes. He believes even murderers can repent and grow in the Lord. Instaed of excommunicating them like you would do. He is sharing the Good News of the Gospel and many are coming into the Kingdom. Every soul is important to God. Think about it. You do not join the sinner in his sin... you rescue him from his sin. ( of course, it is the Holy Spirit who actually does it, by the blood of Jesus for the Glory of God. . You just share the truth of the Word in love. )

Sing F Lau
Good night, I am knocking off after a long day. so, you have a good day. I am going to sleep soundly for the Lord's day worship tomorrow.

God is God and is answerable to no one. He is indeed BIG... VERY BIG. However, as a child of God, I am under His authority. I do what He commands. Others would do what seems right in their own eyes.

What makes you think I would ex-communicate prisoners?

Speak some sense, please! How to ex-communicate someone who is not even a member of the church to begin with? And if church members are imprisoned for their crime, then I would counsel them, they suffer justly.

Dan England
"I do what He commands. Others would do what seems right in their own eyes."
Alas, you validate Suzanne Lundy Burnes thought Sing. Apart from what Paul declares is the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15, everything else is opinion. And what you said in the quotes above, everyone who calls themself a believer, their statement too.

This makes Christs imperative even more imperative:

John 13:35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Sing. If you do what He cammands then you live a sanctified, Holy life in love because the love of God dwells in you. ( actually IN you!) I guess what has me so concerned about this discussion is that you seem to feel you are to judge others. We are to be strict with ourselves allowing nothing evil into our spirit man. But we are to love others with the patient, kind, love of Christ. It has taken me years where I do not subconsciously judge others. It was a real struggle with my flesh nature! "why weren't they all strong Christians like me!' How arrogant I was! . I wish someone has talked to me about that when I was in my 40's or 50's. But I kept it hid. It was for me, and can be for a you, a sumbling block to the fullness of Christ and the POWER of the Gospel. (I don't quote scripture to you because I see none of the people discussing as "babes" but knowers of the word.) You can take

scripture out of context. Look at the BIG Picture, Sing! "God so loved the World that ...." That is the Big Picture. Pray about this to the Father. Ask him outright. He will answer. "Father God Adonai, am I, Sing, supposed to judge others?" Then listen. He will show you in His word. He will miraculously bring someone across your path or he will tell you in His "still small voice" and confirm His word by another. Preachers and teachers are held to a higher standard and need to see clearly if they are to be commissioned by The Holy Spirit himself for readiness and gifts to evangelism. Romans 13: 8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another." Oops. I said I would not quote. But could not resist. LOL in joy. So Sing, " Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh in regard to lust. Judgementalism is a form of lust; lust to be superior.

That is not God's best for you. Jesus wants you to love your neighbour as yourself. On earth we are neighbours.

Dan England
Richard, can you tell me how it is one gets saved according to your doctrine? And why my terminology bothers you? Is it my use of the NASB too?

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Richard you asked me about CHANCE. I do not know what that is. I have never heard anything about it. Can you tell me where to find it.

Then I can answer your question.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Richard, I too do not accept the watered-down versions of the scriptures. I do use an old OPEN NASB that I have gone back and rewritten in the margins the original meaning of many of the Hebrew and Greek words so that it reads correctly according to ancient text. I do think the King James is WONDERFUL... but hard to read for some people. The Matthew Henry Commentary I recommended to Sing has King James. Since I study many hours each day with all the books and read from book to book I do get the King James. Good. Are you aware that the Greek is not really Greek? It has many made-up words because there were not words in Greek for many of the Jewish ways of the Bible you would LOVE Mathew Henry. Even though it is 300 years old it is not hard to understand at all. Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about it. (In many versions the font is too small to read. Hence, we got the 6-volume version)

Here is what Charles H Spurgeon said about it.
"First among the mighty (commentaries) for general usefulness we are bound to mention that man whose name is a household word, Matthew Henry. He is the most pious and pithy, sound and sensible, suggestive and sober, terse and trustworthy.... he is deeply spiritual, heavenly, profitable finding good matter in every text,, and from all deducting the most practical and judicious lessons... It is the Christians' companion, suitable for everybody, instructive, to all. "

Hope that helps. We got ours ( a second copy) for under $40 this year.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Just use a concordance like Youngs or Strongs. It is a place to begin.
Understanding scripture is not only about what you read but in what context and,to whom it is written for what purpose, in what language. It all works together like a dance in perfect step. The VERY MOST important thing I tell my students is to pray for discernment by the Holy Spirit BEFORE they study. Always!

I, every day, ask for a fresh infilling and anointing by the Holy Spirit before I study. What a difference it makes. New revelations are normal and constant in the fresh study of the Living Word. It is all about Jesus from Cover to cover. Glory to His marvellous Name.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
I do not like to insult or slam teachers ( Kay Arthur) or preachers. Just try to bring up points to consider. But lets just say that I find most currrent teaching mostly fluff. ( Tapes Books Ralleys like in MLM)MOre need to be taught for nothing in return but the joy in spreading the gospel. That's what I do. I will not take money.God provides for me himself.

You ask about me. I just teach and counsel ladies. I work as a volunteer professional photographer (that is my profession too ) to help all American orphans get adopted. Most have been neglected and abused. Then I also take photographs of lifetime missionaries to help spread the gospel. This is all a gift to the Lord from me. I not only tithe my money but also my time and talent. So I wear many hats to serve God and love His hurting people. As far as teaching. I use only the Bible and stick to it, word for word.

Dan England
Richard, if your salvation is too complicated to be understood or explained clearly, it is not from God.

Sing F Lau
Ah, I have a blessed worship service this morning.
The message was from 2The 1:11-12.
I see you have been busy conversing!
May our Lord give humility and light to learn from His word.

Sing F Lau
"Richard, if your salvation is too complicated to be understood or explained clearly, it is not from God."
=====
The more likely explanation is that the gospel of grace revealed in the Scriptures may come across as too complicated for those whose minds have been prejudiced... in whose mind, man is involved in some oblique manner in his eternal salvation!

It is silly to dismiss the seemingly complicated things as 'clearly it is not from God.' Please use your brain.

Paul said this to the Hebrews:

"11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Dan England
Wel,l in the Gospel of Jesus that Paul preached, "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Except in Richard and Sing's doctrine. That imperative, "WILL" is only in force if it is passed through the "private interpretation" of Richard and Sing!

I have been saved many years and so far have found this biblical truth to be true:

"WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Now, according to Richard and Sing...well lets just say I am so glad God saves fools. I was simple enough to believe that Jesus heard me when I cried out to Him. I cannot take you to the time but I can take you to the place. And say, "This is where I was born again!"

Sing F Lau
Dan, please provide evidence that I have said such things attributed to me above, otherwise, you make yourself a LIAR and false accuser.

"WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Now please tell us who are the 'whoever' that will call on the name of the Lord.
And tell us what is the salvation that is spoken of?
If you can't answer these two questions correctly, you have NOT NOT NOT properly understood the teaching of the Apostle Paul.

Dan England
Whoever is anyone who hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ and believes, and whoever they are will receive as a gift the Righteousness of God Himself found only in Christ Jesus His Son. The salvation is safety from that damnation that the devil Lucifer and his demons will soon experience. Salvation is being transferred by God from the domain of darkness to the Kingdom of Light. To Christ's Kingdom! Which I and all who have loved His appearing will enjoy. And both are that which NO MAN can take from us!

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Good morning my friend far away.Sing
Preach on in the good faith of our Lord. Great scripture you used this morning. We must put on the helmet of salvation to protect our brain so that when we hear the delusion we can have the Wisdom to discern the deception and stand in the Truth of the Gospel.

Many gifts at work in the spiritual battles. To be a soldier against delusion we must be trained in the gospel rightly.

This teaching is most interesting when read in the entire context.

(Note God sent deluding influence because they did not receive the L O V E of the truth to be saved. ) Maranatha.

I have no idea how I got into this conversation ( Via William D Martin who I know) as I am NEW to Facebook. Is this called CHAT?

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Oops, I read the wrong verse. 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12 is still interesting. Please disregard my comments. Big Mistake. Sorry 🙁

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
My fingers go too fast when I am rushing to church. 2 Thes 2:11-12
That was the wrong verse I read. Still Sorry.... LOL at myself

Sing F Lau
Dan, let me ask further:
who is that anyone who will hear the gospel and believe?
Him who is still dead in trespasses and sins or him whom the Lord HAS SAVED and given eternal life?

Who will believe the gospel UT one whom God has bestowed eternal salvation?
Who will ever call upon the Lord UNLESS God has saved him with eternal salvation?
And if it is one whom the Lord has saved with eternal salvation can call upon the Lord, then what is that salvation that will come upon him who call on the Lord?

The eternal salvation bestowed freely that enables a man to call upon the Lord and the salvation that will come upon calling on the name of the CANNOT POSSIBLY be the same salvation. Do you understand this simple truth yet? I don't think you do.

So, let me put it simpler for you.
The life that your parents gives you that enable you to live, and the life that you will get from your living CAN NOT POSSIBLY be the same life, can they?

Let's stay close to the subject at hand.

Suzanne Lundy Burnes
Sing. Wonderful to teach the fruit of 2 Thessalonians 1 :11-12
Amen!!!!

Asking Questions (9) - Roman 2:14-15 The Gentiles who have the work of the law written in their hearts

 

Romans 2:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature [phusis] the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
- phusis: a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature, habitual.

A Basic premise:
I think you and I will need to agree that 'the work of the law written upon their hearts' is stated as the explanation of why those particular Gentiles "do by nature the things contained in the law." [Apostle Paul is speaking of those Gentiles who "do by nature the things contained in the law." Not all Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law. All men, whether Jews or Gentiles, do by nature the things condemned by the law!]

These Gentiles are doers of the law because the work of the law has been written in their hearts; the former is the effect of the latter; the latter is the explanation for the former. If we cannot agree here, then we cannot proceed. If you do agree, then proceed.

Some Questions
Q1. What truth is Apostle Paul demonstrating with the illustration of these specific Gentiles here?

Q2. By 'the Gentiles' who "do by nature the things contained in the law" (v14) who does apostle Paul refer to?
- all the mankind generally, those whom he has described in Rom 1:18ff, or
- to one of the two groups of mankind mentioned in Rom 2:7-10?

Q3. By 'the Gentiles' does apostle Paul mean the Gentiles who are among those mentioned in verse 2:7;10
- among the group who are the doers of the law?
- Are verses 7 and 10 describing those who are doers of the law (v13)? Do they have the work of the law written upon their heart?
- Are verses 8 and 9 describing those who are doers of the law or breakers of the law? Do they have the work of the law written upon their heart?

Q4. Is "the work of the law written in their hearts" [i.e. those Gentiles that are doers of the law] a reference to that innate moral attribute stamped upon their nature as moral creatures made in the image of God?
- If it is, then this work would be true of every man, whether Jew or Gentile, wouldn't it?
- If it is, then every man, whether Jew or Gentile, would be a doer of the law, wouldn't it? (since being a doer of the law is directly attributed to the work of the law written upon their hearts as men?
- If it is, then who are those described in v8 and 9 - are they the doers of the law also, or are they the breakers of the law? Do they have the work of the law written upon their heart also?
- If it is, then why are there two distinct groups mentioned in verses 7-10?
- If it is, then every man has this innate moral attribute, why isn't every man a doer of the law, the Jews as well as the Gentiles??? Who are those described in verses 8 and 9?
- If it is NOT, then what is this work of the law written in their hearts that distinguishes them from the rest of the fallen humanity whom apostle Paul has described in 1:18-32?

Q5. Is "the work of the law written in their hearts" [i.e. those Gentiles that are doers of the law] a reference to that divine work at the effectual call to grace and salvation in Jesus Christ of these Gentiles?
- If it is, does this divine work explain why these particular Gentiles are doers of the law in contrast to the general mankind who obeys unrighteousness and does evil?
- If it is, does this divine work explain the NEW nature of those Gentiles, by which those Gentiles do by nature the things on the law?
- If it is, how did God perform this divine work? Was it through having the written law of God?
- If it is, how did God perform this divine work? Was it through the instrument of some human activities like preaching?
- Does the Scripture anywhere speak and declare this divine work of writing the law upon the mind and heart of man? Check Heb 8:10, John 6:44-45.

Q6. How did/does/will God bring His elect to grace and salvation in those far-flung corners of the world among all the people and kindreds and tongues and nations of the world where no preachers have ever been, or where many preachers have been but preached another gospel?

Q7. Does the work of God in effectually calling His elect to grace and salvation depend on having the opportunity to hear the gospel or not? What does Rom 2:11-16 say?
- If it does, would the judgment of God still be impartial with those who never had the gospel preached to them or those who had only the perverted and false gospels preached to them?
- If it does, wouldn't the judgment be partial towards those who have the opportunity/ability hear, and partial against those who have no opportunity/ability to have or hear the gospel?
- Would the righteous judgment still be according to each man's deeds?

Q8. What does apostle Paul want to VINDICATE by pointing out these Gentiles who are doers of the law who have never possessed or heard of the law of God, who never had privileges the Jews had???
[THE answer: eternal salvation is by God's free and sovereign grace alone, without any human or gospel preaching instrumentality! Preaching the gospel is for the instruction of those already saved that they may be made wise unto their salvation, instructed concerning the truth of their instruction.]

Q9. Are these Gentiles the doers of the law because of the divine work of circumcising their hearts (Rom 2:28-29) WITHOUT the human instrumentality of gospel preaching? What made the difference?
- Does circumcision made by hand bring about such change among the Jews?

Q10. How are these Gentiles in Rom 2:14 related to those mentioned in Acts 10:34-35?
- "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, IS  accepted with him."
- What accounts for those in every nation who fear God, and work righteousness, but have never had the gospel at all?
[THE answer: The direct and immediate work of God in effectually calling them out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ - this divine work explains why such fear God and works righteousness. They have no knowledge of their salvation yet... that has to come from the gospel ministry!]

Let there be no misunderstanding:
Don't misunderstand me. The preaching of the gospel is vital... but vital ONLY for the purpose for which God has ordained it. And what is that purpose? Is it an instrument in the effectual call of the dead in trespasses to eternal life, OR is it an instrument for the instruction and conversion to the truth of those already effectually called to eternal life?

Apostle Paul wrote to those in Rome he described as "beloved of God" (1:7), "the called of Christ Jesus" (1:6), and "called saints" (1:7). And yet he was very desirous and determined to have the gospel of God preached to these very same people.
- What does this tell us about Apostle Paul's view on "gospel regeneration," a common and popular view of the reformed people today?

Rom 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

In what exact manner to the end that the promise (of salvation) might be sure to all the seed?
- In what sense “it is of faith” so that the promise (of salvation) might be sure to all the seed?
- In what sense “be by grace” so that the promise (of salvation) might be sure to all the seed?