November
13, 2019
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02TkKhJ1ftGdPrF3XjLpMXvQUbRi1wT7uGcjpp1xxdSrxra2Ma7sz5nPzAWjkJJ54tl
When
the sons of God took on flesh, contrary to God's will, they brought
destruction; when the eternal Word was made flesh, according to God's will, He
secured redemption.
36
Comments
-----------
Reggie
Lee
That
is an amazing concept
Sing
Reggie
Lee, go
to this post "angels that sinned" and answer the questions posed.
The
study exercise itself will do you good.
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214998439569924
Joe
Chin
Good
one! I didn't think of that connection before.
Adam Wells
Joe
Chin, does the scriptures say that the sons of God took on flesh? Please read
here: http://www.letgodbetrue.com/.../nephilim-sons-of-god-word...
Sing
Adam,
thanks for the link. We have gone through it. Didn't convince me.
Do
the Scriptures say that godly Sethites marry ungodly women?
If
you are interested, consider the questions posed in the post here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214998439569924
The
exercise itself will do you good.
Sonny
Bonner
That
which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.
Sing
F Lau
Sonny
Bonner That which is spirit can take on the flesh is a HARD biblical fact harder to
ignore.
Some
elect angels took on flesh throughout the Bible to run divine errands.
What
prevents the fallen angels from doing the same, in transgression against God,
with the intention to thwart/circumvent the curse in Gen 3:15?
Adam
Wells
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/pdf/second-peter-two.pdf
Sing
I
have studied through it. There are a few things I can't agree with, unfortunately.
I'm
preaching through 2Pet 2 now. That's why the subject of the "angels that
sinned" came to mind.
Sing
Adam,
have you tried answering the simple questions on the angels that sinned?
Adam Wells
Are
you referring to the questions in the link you sent?
Sing
Adam
Wells, I
assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with
this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He
indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1.. "God and
Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1." What
was that sin then?
He
also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment."
What was that sin that God saved the rest of the angels from?
(notes
in verse 4)
Please
say hello to Ma'am Fawn and the boys for me.
Thanks.
Adam
Wells
John
8:44 says that the devil "abode not in the truth" which equals Jude
1:6 "kept not their first estate." Other than these 2 references, I
can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and makes sense
before creation. ("He was a murderer from the beginning" refers to
creation.) It is a great stretch to try to read Gen 6 into being the sin spoken
of in Peter. The argument is not only weak but simply nonsensical as there is
no evidence that angels can take on flesh.
Thanks
for the greetings!
Sing
Let
me understand you correctly first. So the angels that sinned refers to that
initial rebellion against God that got them cast out of heaven? Was that the
sin and occasion?
Sing
So
you are equating the DEVIL not abiding in the truth the same as the ANGELS not
keeping their first estate? Do I understand you right?
Adam Wells
Sing
F Lau ... Yes. Angels leaving their first estate does not mean that they were
no more angels in the same way that Adam leaving his first estate doesn't mean he
became an ape but rather a sinner.
Sing
Does
your "yes" affirm that for Jude 1:6 and 2Pet 2:4 "the angels
that sinned" refer to the initial rebellion that got them thrown out of
heaven,
OR
Does
your "yes" affirm that the DEVIL not abiding in the truth is the same
thing as the ANGELS not keeping their first estate?
Sing
Adam
@ "John 8:44 says that the devil "abode not in the truth" which
equals Jude 1:6 "kept not their first estate." Other than these 2
references, I can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and
makes sense before creation. ("He was a murderer from the beginning"
refers to creation.) It is a great stretch to try to read Gen 6 into being the
sin spoken of in Peter. The argument is not only weak but simply nonsensical as
there is no evidence that angels can take on flesh."
==========
"
I can't find a sin which is ascribed directly to fallen angels and makes sense
before creation" - of course, you can't, there isn't such a thing to be
found in the Scriptures. But who is saying that?
Angels
(I supposed NOT fallen yet) that sinned BEFORE CREATION are mentioned by Brother
Jonathan in his explanation on 2Pet 2:4.
Let's
assume that unfallen angels did sin BEFORE CREATION, what was that sin? What
was the consequence of that sin?
In
2Pet 2:4, it is some of the fallen angels that sinned in that they took upon
themselves human nature and propagated themselves with the daughters of men. This explains the catastrophic and universal moral degeneration.
Your statement "there is no evidence that angels can take on flesh" befits someone who has never read the Bible, or a Bible reader who is WILFULLY ignorant; this is said with all due respect.
Sing
Reposting
a comment from above:
----------------
I
assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with
this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He
indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1. "God and
Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1."
QUESTION: What was that sin then?
He
also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment."
QUESTION: What was that sin God saved the rest of the angels from?
(notes
in verse 4)
Sing
Adam
@ "Yes. Angels leaving their first estate does not mean that they were no
more angels in the same way that Adam leaving his first estate doesn't mean he
became an ape but rather a sinner."
======
Nice
try, Adam.
Adam
Wells who left the estate of singlehood for the estate of matrimony is still human but is now joined to a woman.
That's
one way to use the word estate.
The
eternal Word was made flesh, united with flesh and became God-man, the Son of
God. He became what he wasn't BUT He did not cease to be what He has always
been, Divine.
2Pet
2:4
For
if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and
delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
Jude
6
And
the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he
hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the
great day.
Do
you see the connection between their first estate and their own habitation?
Their own habitation is their NATIVE God-ordained spirit realm.
Those
angels that sinned joined themselves to human flesh; they kept not their first
estate, i.e. they forsook their first and native estate; they left their OWN
HABITATION, their own habitation is in the realm of spirit. They left their own
habitation and trespassed into the habitation of man.
They
left it and entered the physical realm, with sinister intentions and devastating effects, the details are recorded in Gen 6.
BUT grace intervened.
Adam
Wells
The
problem with eisegesis is the person doing it doesn't think they are. You want
it to say that so you have read it into the text.
Sing
Adam
Wells, that applies to you and every student of God's word too. Don't tell me
you are incapable of eisegesis.
So,
tell us exactly what is your interpretation, and then we can discuss its merit. 🙂
Sing
Adam
Wells, have you tried answering those questions posed on 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6?
Adam
Wells
Sing
F Lau, I agree with the interpretation given in the links from letgodbetrue.
I've no need to restate it as it is clear and precise.
Sing
F Lau
Since
you do agree with the interpretation, I assume that you have understood what's
stated there. That's a reasonable assumption, I hope.
Then
help me answer the two questions I have posed on what's stated there. I
reposted my two questions but they were ignored or maybe just overlooked.
Let
me re-repost it here; this is the third time.
----------------
I
assume you have read Brother Jonathan's note in 2Pet 2, please help me with
this question: what was the sin of the angels and when did it happen? He
indicated that it was something that occurred before Gen 1:1. " God and
Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1."
QUESTION: What was that sin then?
He
also said, "God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment."
QUESTION:
What was that sin God saved the rest of the angels from?
(His
notes in verse 4)
---------
Thanks.
Sing
Adam
Wells, This
is Brother Jonathan's note on "The
angels that sinned."
A.
If God judged angels so hard, He will surely judge men defying Him (Job 4:18).
B.
Compare Jude’s version of fallen angels and their judgment by God (Jude 1:6).
C.
God saved the rest of the angels from sin and judgment (Mat 25:31; I Ti 5:21).
D.
God and Peter gave you a glimpse of a great event occurring before Gen 1:1.
Questions:
What was that great event occurring before Gen 1:1?
What
sin and judgement did God save the rest of the angels from?
Tell us, please.
Adam Wells
Sing
F Lau You and I both know that the scriptures do not irrefutably tell us what
Satan's "original" sin was. The great event then is referring to
Satan's sin, however, we are not told specifically what that sin is. The rest of
the angels referred to are elect angels, hence the reason they didn't fall from
their estate.
Sing
Thank
you for responding to my question somewhat.
"You and I both know that the scriptures ...." - you
should speak for yourself; you know not what I don't know.
Would
2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 be references to that original sin committed before Gen
1:1? Please answer this question. Thanks.
Was
it Satan's original sin (before Gen 1:1) that caused him and his host to be
cast out of heaven or was that the result of another sin?
Thanks. Keeping talking. You are helping me learn a few things.
Adam Wells
Sing
F Lau we have already said that these references the Fall of Satan which was due
to his original sin. If you know what that sin was say it plainly.
(sing: What is Satan's origin sin?)
Sing
Thanks
for affirming that. I want to know what exactly you believe by stating them.
What
was the consequence (to Satan and his host) of the original sin of Satan (before
Gen 1:1)?
Adam Wells
Sing
F Lau - the aforementioned scriptures answer that... We do not read those
passages as referencing Gen 6, which has nothing to do with angels.
Sing
I'll
demonstrate to you that that view is much worse than weak and nonsensical; it is self-contradictory and inconsistent in many ways. I will do that when I have access to my
laptop. (Typing
this from my toilet seat!)
Adam Wells
Please
also name the "original" sin of Satan along with the scripture which
states it. (No further explanation required just one sentence/word.) I would
like to hear this.
Sing
F Lau
You
have said a few things about the "original sin" of Satan; let me quote
from above.
1.
" Sing F Lau You and I both know that the scriptures do not irrefutably
tell us what Satan's "original" sin was. The great event then is
referring to Satan's sin, however, we are not told specifically what that sin
is."
2.
"Sing F Lau we have already said that these references the Fall of Satan
which was due to his original sin. If you know what that sin was say it
plainly."
Adam,
I may not know what the original sin was since you have stated that "the
scriptures do not irrefutably tell us what Satan's "original" sin
was."
But I can show you that to 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 CAN'T POSSIBLY be what you termed as Satan's original sins. To insist that they are, you have to commit many contradictions and inconsistencies.
Sing
Adam
Wells, here is a statement on that "original" sin in today's proverb
commentary.
The
first sin in the universe was pride – Satan’s pride (I Tim 3:6). His arrogant
ambition was to be like the most high God (Is 14:12-14). And he was punished
for it. How severely? He and his angels are reserved for eternal torment in
hell forever (Is 14:15; Matt 25:41; II Pet 2:4; Rev 20:10). The devil’s great
abilities cannot save him at all.
The
first sin in the universe, therefore, that sin must be AFTER Gen 1:1, unless you insist
that there was a universe BEFORE Gen 1:1, and that angels were created before the
creation week.
You
said you agreed to all that. That's why I'm asking.
You asserted: "Sing F Lau I agree with the interpretation given in the links from letgodbetrue. I've no need to restate it as it is clear and precise"
Sing
F Lau
The
first sin in the universe was pride - Satan's pride. What was the consequence?
Satan and his lackeys were expelled from heaven and cast down to the earth.
The
specific sin mentioned in 2Pet and Jude was committed by some fallen angels.
What was the sin? Was it pride?
Go
and reread the two passages.
What
was the consequence for those angels involved? Cast down to the earth?
Go
and reread the two passages.
Are
the two sins - i.e. the 'original sin of Satan and the sin committed by some fallen angels mentioned in 2Pet and Jude - the same?
Go
and reread the two passages.
Compare them with the "original
sin" of Satan.
Any
more questions?
======
postscript
Scriptures say the original sin of Satan was pride; the consequence of that sin was that God expelled Satan and his hosts out of heaven and cast them down to the earth. (Since they were cast down to the earth, it has to be AFTER Genesis 1:1; there was no earth before Genesis 1:1.)
Scriptures say the sin committed by some fallen angels recorded in 2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 was not keeping their first estate, but departing from their own habitation; the consequence of that sin: God has reserved them in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. These angels are in complete captivity.
They are two completely different sins with two completely different consequences.
Yet many theologians and their followers insist they are the same! Whatever has happened to common sense?
Only the wilfully blind fail to see the differences.
