Election and Free Will?

Hello. My name is Mark C, and I am a member of Txxx Baptist Church in Vanxxx, Wxx. I am just learning calvinism and am a work in progress. I am wrestling around with a verse in the bible that several pastors I know can answer for me. Maybe one of you can help me.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Several pastors, including J. V M state that this verse shows election AND free will. Is that true? Every commentary I have is not reformed tradition. I'm new at this reformed thing. I'm trying to get a Reformation Study Bible with the reformed notes, but haven't got the money for it yet. Even pointing me in the right direction would be helpful.

God Bless.
Mark
--------

Hello Brother Mark,

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Since none has responded so far, let me suggest that there are two distinct comings spoken of here. Let me explain.

a. "All that the Father GIVETH me shall come to me;"
Here is the coming that involves ALL that the Father gives to Jesus, each and every one of the elect. All the elect were given to Christ in the eternal covenant of redemption.
- And each of them is given to Christ in time when God, at His appointed and approved time, draws each to His Son Jesus Christ in the effectual calling. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day… And he said, therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father” John 6:44, 65.

The drawing here speaks of the effectual call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ. And each elect shall be effectually called at God’s appointed and approved time.

Therefore, the first coming involves ALL THE ELECT in their effectual call to eternal salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God - "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..." 1689.10.1

This coming into vital union with Christ in REGENERATION is solely by the free and divine grace; each elect is absolutely and completely passive, being dead in trespasses and sins. This coming is by the divine effectual call, issued to individual elect DEAD in trespasses and sins. This coming is solely by the effectual and irresistible power of God in drawing out an elect from the state of condemnation, death, and alienation. It embraces every single elect God gave to His Son Jesus Christ.

b. "and him that COMETH to me I will in no wise cast out..."
- The coming involves the effectually called individual elect who does hear and believe the gospel, and by faith, receives and rests in Christ and His righteousness for eternal salvation.
- This coming to Christ in CONVERSION is through the gospel call administered by preachers sent forth by Christ, issued to the children of God, calling them to believe what is already true of them.
- Those already effectually called to grace and salvation, i.e. justified, regenerated and adopted – are capable to hear and believe the gospel, the good news of their salvation. The hearing of the gospel is blessed and made effectual to their conversion by the Spirit of God.

Only one that has been VITALLY UNITED TO CHRIST by the effectual call is able to come to Christ experientially by faith through the gospel call. ‘Him that cometh’ speaks of the active response of receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness in the gospel call.

This does not speak of the free will of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins. This speaks of *free agency* of those that God has made alive. This speaks of the human responsibility of God's children. Those effectually called to grace and salvation are commanded, and therefore called to believe, the gospel truth concerning their salvation by God’s free grace.

So, let every one who hears the gospel be encouraged to come to the Saviour. Him that comes to Christ He will in no wise cast out! Why? Why? Him that comes to Christ does so BECAUSE the Father has given him to Christ in the eternal covenant, and is effectually called by the Father, and is now summoned to come by the gospel call issued through the God-sent ambassador of Christ. So, let even the chief of sinners come boldly, with reverence. Christ stands ready to receive all such repentant sinners.

It is a common and popular error even among reformed people that ALL the elect will hear the gospel and believe in the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. However, there are effectually called elect who will never hear the gospel during their lifetime on earth.

It is also a common and popular error even among Reformed people that the gospel call is the necessary means to effectual call, i.e. no preaching, no effectual call to eternal life.

I would avoid a study bible... it takes great discipline to distinguish the divinely inspired word from human ideas that are put side by side with it! The danger of elevating man's opinion to the level of God's word is very real and subtle...

What's calvinism?

Just my simple understanding,

sing.
(a Chinese lad in the Far East)

 

Everlasting fire and the Lake of fire

Leongsy
Matthew 25 KJT
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...  
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Sir. I am listening to Pastor Jonathan's Ancient Landmarks sermon 6; around the 17th min, I definitely heard him say Matthew 25:41 is referring to the Lake of Fire.

What do you think?

sing
I think that's a popular fable.
May the Lord bless you to use a bit of common sense.

Please consider these few things:

ONE:
"everlasting" is carelessly understood as eternal. Everlasting hell lasts as long as time lasts; it shall be ended (emptied and become irrelevant) at the end of time. The lake of fire is eternal - it shall be ushered in after the end of time, THAT IS, after the general resurrection and the final judgment.

TWO:
Please ask and think through.
- Of whom does the righteous Judge require to show those kind deeds to His people? Does He require those good works from those dead in trespasses and sins? Or does He require such good works from His redeemed people?

THREE:
Read the response in verse 25.
To whom will you attribute the response to the righteous Judge's charges/censures? Is it a response from those dead in trespasses and sins or from those who own the Judge as their Lord?

FOUR:
The three parables in Mt 25 have one, same theme:
 - The ONE Bridegroom with BOTH wise and foolish virgins; BOTH are waiting for Him
- The ONE Master with BOTH the good/faithful servants, and the wicked/slothful servants. BOTH are his OWN servants.
- ONE Shepherd who has BOTH sheep and goats in His ONE Flock. Both are in His one flock - He separates them.

FIVE:
v46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do a search on the usage of "life eternal." You will discover the hard truth - life eternal is entered CONDITIONALLY through man's works of righteousness. Take a look here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2023/08/life-eternal-and-eternal-life.html

Heaven is accessed solely and wholly on the basis of Christ and His works alone.

And life eternal is not eternal life; and entering life eternal is NOT entering heaven.
Careless folks equate the two.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology

CONCLUSION
All the parables describe some harsh realities ABOUT the kingdom of God...
- There are BOTH the wise and the foolish virgins waiting for the Groom in the kingdom of God.
- There are BOTH the good/faithful servants and the wicked/slothful servants of the Master in the kingdom of God
- There are BOTH the disciples who show kindness to the least of the Judge's redeemed, and there are disciples who don't, in the kingdom of God.

The immediate CONTEXT of Matthew 25 is the coming of the Bridegroom/ Master/Shepherd (the descriptions of the same Person, the Lord Jesus Christ) in 70AD to judge earthly theocratic Israel.

May the Lord help you understand. Amen.

Leongsy
Good. You should write a book on the History of the Particular Baptists vs the Reformed Baptists and also include all those incorrect interpretations of the Scriptures by the Deformed Reformed guys into it, and then u give your correct interpretations, so that everyone may know the truth.

sing
2 Timothy 2:15 KJT — Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is a WORK with these great purposes:
- THYSELF be approved unto God,
- THYSELF need not be ashamed.
- THYSELF to be found faithful.

Rightly dividing the word of truth is NOT to parade oneself; it's not to show the errors of others, unless they inquire or dispute.

If anyone wants to know the truth, they just need to have some common sense and be honest with what the text says.

Consider the above, and may our blessed Lord grant you understanding.

Amen.

The Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord

Leongsy

2 Thessalonians 2: 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Sir, why is it "the day of Christ" here instead of "the day of the Lord"?

sing
2 Thessalonians 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
--------

Ask, what is Paul talking about, and to whom?

The day of the Lord is a phrase often used by the prophets to refer to the coming of the Lord in judgement against the earthly theocratic kingdom of Israel in 70 AD. This is often addressed to the Jewish audience.

Whereas "the day of Christ" speaks of the second advent of Christ. And that's the context of the passage, 2Th 2:2.

Examples of the day of the Lord:
Amos 5:18 KJT — Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

Amos 5:20 KJT — Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Zechariah 14:1 KJT — Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Malachi 4:5 KJT — Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

2 Peter 3:10 KJT - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Acts 2:20 KJT — The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

In both instances, Peter was warning the unbelieving Jews of the impending destruction in 70AD.

Examples of the day of Christ:

Romans 2:16 KJT
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:8 KJT
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 KJT
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:10 KJT
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

Philippians 2:16 KJT
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Leongsy
Haha. And some Dispensationalists interpret it as the Rapture with Christ coming to take us up 🤭

That was why I needed to check with you.

Basically, they believe that the church and Israel are distinct

sing
The dispensationalists' rapture is a fable.
The earthly theocratic Israel was immutably abolished by God in 70AD - just as prophesied by the prophets, and affirmed by Christ and His Apostles.

  

When did we get our spirits?

Could this indicate the exact moment God gives the spirit? 

https://youtube.com/shorts/CPWXF-OHt5w?si=xVN8BBC9rFbKBILY

Leonsie
When did we get our spirits? Did we inherit it at birth from our parents, or did God breathe each of our spirits into us when we were conceived?

sing
Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Ecc 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Leonsie
So each of us received our spirit directly from God when we were born?

sing
At conception - when we were conceived.

Leonsie
Is that when the Elect's vital justification takes place also?

sing
Read this again, from May 2025. This time with understanding, please.

Leonsie
Did I grasp the gist of what James Buchanan was trying to lay out in his book? Justification is Christ's work, but our own faith is AFTER we have been given the Holy Spirit.

sing
I'm delighted that you are looking at Buchanan's magnum opus. Too many Reformed people don't have a clue of the distinct aspects/facets of justification pointed out by Buchanan in his classic work on justification. Buchanan is an OLD SCHOOL Calvinist.

We need to be clear on the distinct role each Person of the Triune God in relationship to the justification of an elect in his native state of condemnation and death and alienation.

It's God who justifies.
A. God himself purposed justification for those He had elected out of the fallen race of Adam.
- The Decretal Aspect of Justification

B. God himself provided the basis/ground for the justification of His elect - by Christ's righteousness and blood.
- This is the Legal Aspect of Justification.
- This is Justification by the faith/righteousness of Christ. Romans 3:22, Gal 2:16,20; 3:22, Ph 3:9)

C. He Himself freely applies the righteousness to the elect when they are dead in trespasses and sins, at His own appointed and approved time.
- This is the Vital/Personal Aspect of Justification.
- This is justification by the grace of God. Romans 3:24.
- When the righteousness of Christ is freely applied to an elect, the Holy Spirit has the divine warrant to regenerate the spiritually dead.
- Those regenerated by the Spirit are adopted by the Father, and are given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in them.
- This indwelling Spirit of adoption works the fruit of the Spirit in them, including faith. Romans 8:15.

D. God Himself provides His children the means/instrument to experience the blessedness of their justification by God's free grace (C above).
- The indwelling Spirit of God works faith in God's children, enabling them to believe. BUT they must do the work of believing.
- Believing is an activity of man, it's work.
- John 6:29 KJT — "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
- This is the Practical/Experiential Aspect of Justification. This is what is described in Gen 15:1-6.

E. God Himself will consummate the justification He has purposed before the foundation of the world.
- The consummation shall take place at the general resurrection to glorification.
- Glorification is the Final Aspect of Justification

I hope the above makes sense. If not, ask.

=========

Could this indicate the exact moment God gives the spirit? 

https://youtube.com/shorts/CPWXF-OHt5w?si=xVN8BBC9rFbKBILY

"Faith alone justifies..." - a case of willful ignorance and unbelief!

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10200621316070822&set=a.10200621315230801

Faith alone justifies...- a case of willful ignorance and unbelief!

A man insisted: "Faith alone justifies..."

I inquired: How can it be that faith alone justifies?????

Scriptures declare these:
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Where did the lie 'faith ALONE justifies' come from??? Who started that lie???

He replies curtly:
"Because that is the way that God set up his plan of salvation...."

I marvelled:
Let God be true, but every man a LIAR!!!

The Scriptures do not say faith alone justifies. That is putting words in God's own mouth!

More likely, "that's the way misguided men imagine how a guilty condemned man is justified before God!!!"
================

Comments

Hulan Bass
However, Faith is one of the ingredients, but not alone.

Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan, "Faith is one of the ingredients" how a guilty man is justified before God???

Hulan Bass
Sing Lau, you are hard to communicate with. Faith comes at the POINT OF Regeneration, by the Voice of Jesus Christ, and that INWARD Faith is the Very Holy Spirit in the Trinity. There is NO FAITH in man before the New Birth.

Bernard Gowens
Bro. Sing, I am with you all the way. The creature's faith is not at all involved in God's family being justified by blood before God. I understood your truthful premise; whereas, it seems some others did not. Justification before God is totally absent man's faith.

Man's faith is only involved when a child of God hears and believes the Gospel preached and becomes justified by faith in the court room of his own conscience. This is justification before "self" and is within one's own personal conscience and that is "after the act of regeneration has taken place."

Following a regenerate person's justification by faith in the court of his/her own conscience, the regenerate person "should" manifest that faith by his works in the public courtroom of men. This then exposes to others that his/her faith is not dormant (dead) and is thus an operative faith.

[Peter Missing deleted all his comments]

Sing F Lau
Peter Missing, you said, "The bible does not concede that we are justified by any other factor.">

I have stated that the Scriptures declare otherwise, and you just go ahead and contradict the Bible so conveniently...

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:...

FREELY BY HIS GRACE... so debunks the lie of by faith alone.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

BY HIS BLOOD... so debunks the error of by faith alone

Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST... so debunks the fiction of by your faith alone.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

NOT BY FAITH ONLY... so debunks your fable of by faith alone!

Sing F Lau
Sing, you are hard to communicate with. Faith comes at the POINT OF Regeneration, by the Voice of Jesus Christ, and that INWARD Faith is the Very Holy Spirit in the Trinity. There is NO FAITH in man before the New Birth.
===========

Elder Hulan Bass,

1. I DON'T believe your PB notion that faith comes at the POINT OF Regeneration.

Faith DOES NOT come at the point of regeneration.

Eternal life comes at the point of regeneration. The Spirit of God is given to dwell in the regenerated elect as the Spirit of adoption. And the indwelling Spirit works all the saving graces in a child of God... and faith is one of them. Faith is a saving grace worked in the heart of a child of God by the indwelling Spirit. If you are saying the same thing, then I agree with you.

2. I DON'T buy your PB notion that "that INWARD Faith is the Very Holy Spirit in the Trinity."

If words have meaning, you have just done the most silly thing (no disrespect intended, so don't need to take any) by equating:

that INWARD FAITH as the Very Holy Spirit in the Trinity."

Sorry, Sir!!! Stop speaking in PB lingo, and you may be understood!!! You indeed communicate in a strange manner!!!

Bernard Gowens
Bro. Sing, it was said by another that "... that INWARD Faith is the Very Holy Spirit in the Trinity." This is not PB lingo, nor is it Bible truth. It is a gross misstatement. Consider this syllogism:

Premise #1: Faith is an attribute, not a Person.
Premise #2: The Holy Spirit is a Person in the Trinity, not an attribute.

Therefore: Inward faith is NOT the very Holy Spirit in the Trinity.

The brother that made this statement, made it badly.

Sing F Lau
Brother Bernard, you are a brave and honest man!

You restore my faith in the good PBs somewhat.

I was becoming cynical that the PBs don't express their disagreement with fellow PBs no matter what... because they are extremely weary of division... as though disagreement must always lead to division!!!

PJ Walters
Cannot a man also be justified by works?

Sing F Lau
Works justify a man evidentially/practically.

PJ Walters
Is there a Scripture which teaches justification by works?

Bernard Gowens
James 2:14-26. See especially verses 24 thru 25. This is a person's justification by works before the court or men. One's justification is manifested before the face of men, publicly, by man's works. This shows the man has already been regenerated in heart and has heard the Gospel and is justified (satisfied) in his heart and soul by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus on the cross.

PJ Walters
Thanks! I asked the question because I already knew the answer.

Hulan Bass
Bros. Sing Lau & Bernard, we are not communicating. I have never believed, preached nor taught that faith alone was all inclusive. Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, must be honored, so Faith is just one of Nine descriptions of the Fruit (singular) of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person in the Holy Trinity. The Gospel aspect of Faith, when manifested and displayed, by the "alrady born-again" child of God, fulfills James 2:24 - "Ye shee then how that by works a man is

Hulan Bass
justified, and not by faith only." More if necessary. Kindly.

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, Bro. Bernard and I are 1st Cousins. His Mother and my Dad were brother and sister. So he is free to ridicule me all he wants to, but cannot get rid of me. grin.

Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan, you love justifying yourself no matter what, even when the most stupid things are said!!! <LOL>

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing Lau, I have made mis-statements before, and my writing many times, is NOT what I really believe or intended to convey. Do you ever have this problem? I have already agreed to my mis-statements to Bro. Bernard, and will apologize to you also. Forgive and pray for me.

Sing F Lau
Then why don't you just admit that it was a simple mis-statement, but blah blah blah a whole lot of irrelevant things? I have no problem with your mis-statements! But when an EXACT man like you make mis-statement, and when pointed out, and no admission is forth coming , it is very distasteful!!!

Hulan Bass
I admit and apologize for my mis-statements. Kindly

Sing F Lau
Elder Hulan, your last comment SHOULD HAVE BEEN the first comment after Elder Bernard's comment of correcting you! But you blah blah blah.

Hulan Bass
I agree, you are always right, and so is Bro.Bernard.
I have no defense.

Sing F Lau
"I agree, you are always right, and so is Bro.Bernard."
=======

That's just being childish!

I did not claim that I'm always right... so your agreement is quite misplaced and misguided!

I did point out your OBVIOUS misstatement. That's all you need to admit to. It is as simple as that! Why can't we keep things very simple!!!

Hulan Bass
Many times I write responding immediately just like I'm doing right now, without checking, re-reading my comments in a discussion scenario, and find later that I had not stated exactly what I meant, so they become mis-statements not reflecting my which I do carefully re-read and correct my WRITINGS, especially pertaining to theological exegesis. Okay?

Hulan Bass
See this mess right here? continued from above "that I had not stated exactly what I meant and believe, so they become

I did this on purpose to prove my point.

I will not be posting or discussing much anymore without carefully examining articulately before posting.

Hulan Bass
Response coming

Charles Page
In a way I prefer dialog in an arena where we have to speak quickly and brief and our first impressions are given - this is "barbershop discussions" or agora public discussions. No thought out speech or prepared notes. If we are wrong make corrections and move on. And a bit of passion helps to provide a catalyst for discussions.

Preachers in pulpits and lawyers in courtrooms make for poor effective communications. The preacher and the lawyer will always win and both will get substantially rewarded!

Hulan Bass
Bro. Charles, this only opens the door for many, possibly too many hurt feelings and fellowship. Reasoning together is taught in Isaiah 1:18; and Acts 24:15; 18:4, 19; 24:25. Yet reasoning in the Barbershop is very casual, and nothing usually ever come to fruit-bearing. Old Baptist have through the years, even between Regular Worship Services, done what was known as Hardshelling out under the shade tree. Some good maybe came, and some not so. I know. I’ve been a member since 1942. Even this message was carefully thought-out and worded before publishing

Charles Page
Bro Bass, this why PB listen to preaching for an hour sing half an hour then eat fried chicken for an hour and a half and never once mention Christ name during fellowship! They really get along well! This is why you don't grow as a congregation you just exist till everyone dies off!

<LOL> too many hurt feelings! bless your sensitive heart!

Sing F Lau
More excuses! We ALL make misstatements. When pointed out... admit it and restate the misstatement if it is indeed one; otherwise defend it.

Hulan Bass
Bro. Sing, I have found, that by careful and thoughtful articulation, that I can and do write precisely and accurately, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, and then go back and “proof-read” what I have written and correct my words to be completely in line with what I believe, before publishing. Many times I have mis-stated and mis-represented the exact details of what I really intended.

By implementing this new procedure, I eliminate most all these inaccurate statements.

Yes, I admit and make no excuses for my past errors, but I am striving to eliminate all such in the future, so my intentions are communicating the exact truth.

Charles Page
I prefer telling people about my excitement about Jesus in a barber shop or in McDonalds or under a shade tree than sitting for an hour listening to a Primitive Baptist preacher give out his thoughtful articulation. It is not that he lacks the correct doctrine but he has lost the passion years ago!

When I hear a SBC preacher preach a less than doctrinal exposition I will approach him, afterwards in an awkward manner and ask him about what he said. The PB pastors are unapproachable in this. I've tried to approach the Guesses and the Poe with questions and there is a Hardshell that seems impenetrable.

The SBC preacher will squirm and get angry but there is a penetrable shell that is there and it gives me hope that some can be reached for Christ given time.

Hulan Bass
No Response at the moment

Charles Page
I take an opposing view, Respectfully, Robert. I believe that the truth of God's saving power cannot be damaged by my lack of grace and mercy. What can be damaged is the fickle feelings of men who are fearful of an open dialog and not one hidden under a bushel.

I am sure I don't know enough PB ministers and have not attended enough PB churches. So far the ones I have attended have already evidence (in the Memphis area) the ample proof I need to know that what is called "church" is more than a small group of people who love a-Capella singing, listening to an hour sermon and fellowshipping around an afternoon meal.

I am not certain that primitive baptist life is reflected in the modern primitive Baptist life.

But before we go any further with this discussion understand that any accusation against a brother has to be handled privately, absolutely. Accusations have not been made public by me nor anyone I know in these discussions. We are discussing theology and methodology and this is for open debate. It is the realm of our learning.

Sing F Lau
"We are discussing theology and methodology and this is for open debate. It is the realm of our learning."
=====
Amen. So let us stick to it, please.

Charles Page
My observation is that some I have observed have lost their passion. Your arousal indicates you still have the necessary passion! I'll stick to my accusation and certain that it's not a personal matter that strikes at a moral issue!

I follow Paul in provoking to emulation the ministers in order that I also might win some! I magnify my office.

I too will defend the Lord's church and 'our' brethern. I will be obedient!

Aaron Milyard
I'll never understand how people can say the things they do when the bible clearly states that ALL are dead in trespasses and in sins.

I heard a saying once: The man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

Let us not look to our own wills, thoughts and ideas for interpretation of Gods word. Ask God our Father to open our eyes to the truth in His word. The word of God is so much more than "just another book" to be read and "guessed" about what it means.

Sing F Lau
It takes a great measure of grace and humility to admit one's error, and repent and believe the truth.