March 10, 2013
Eternal
salvation is NEITHER by your faith in Jesus Christ nor by your works of
righteousness. Both are lies of the devil!.
Eternal Salvation
is
-
by the free grace of God alone (the manner salvation is bestowed upon dead
condemned sinners personally)
-
based upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone (the basis and foundation of
salvation), and
-
is experienced, and evidenced by believing in Jesus Christ.
Faith
in Jesus Christ is an EFFECT or FRUIT of salvation already given to a sinner.
An effect of salvation cannot be the means to obtain that salvation. This is
elementary.
It
is helpful to speak distinctly... i.e. rightly dividing the word of truth.
Remember
this injunction: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Ti 2:15
===========
129
Comments
Ray
Berrian
Galatians
3:26 'For
you are all the children of God by FAITH in Jesus Christ.'
'But
without FAITH it is impossible to please Him; for he who comes to God must
believe that He is, and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him'
[Hebrews 11:6].
Sing
F Lau
Thanks
Ray.
Now,
please tell us what does Gal 3:26 teach you.
I'm
not impressed with quoting of Scriptures. You should do better... quote and
explain its meaning. The Devil quote Scriptures pretty well too. I assure you
I'm not trying to be rude. I'm typing very courteously. (big smile)
Are you saying by Gal 3:26 teaches that a man becomes a child of God by his believing in Christ Jesus? I think the devil would want all to believe that! So, you see quoting Scriptures without spelling out what you want that Scriptures to teach doesn't help us to know what you want to say!
Ray
Berrian
Your
lead statement was, 'Eternal salvation is NEITHER by your faith in Jesus Christ
. . . While
I gave Scripture, from what I can see you minimized the importance of the Word
of God by neglecting to back up your ad hoc personal theological conclusions.
What are you trying to say to us in the above quote?
Hulan
Bass
Gal.
3:26 is clearly teaching that the Churches of Galatia are no longer under the
O.T. Law or Schoolmaster, but only under and in
the Faith of Jesus Christ who is FAITH Himself. For that matter no one else is
still under the O.T. Laws, who are Born-Again Children of God.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you have problem with my lead statement?
You
don't believe what's stated? Then you can explain why.
Nothing
wrong with you giving Scriptures. What is wrong is quoting Scriptures without
saying what it means! It helps when you tell us what Gal 3:26 teaches.
So is Gal 3:26 saying that a man become a child of God by his believing in Christ? Or it is saying what Elder Hulan has said?
Ray
Berrian
The
quote is 'Faith is the result of the new birth and not . . .'
This thought came out of Calvinism and not Scriptural, Holy Spirit guided exegesis. This is presuppositional quasi-theological thinking which came originally from the Roman Catholic Church and many of the Protestant reformers stayed rather close to papal understanding rather that being guided by the precious Holy Spirit of God. Only after 490+ years has some of the evangelical churches grown in faith and have moved away from Calvinism which is only the systematizing of Augustinian theology meaning Roman Catholic theology.
Ray
Berrian
This
amount of space is poor for discussion. Sing F. Lau needs to suggest a better
venue like the Catholic-Protestant-Islam forum.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you even have problem with "'Faith is the result of the new birth and not
. . .' I'm surprised!
Would
you have problem with Christ's statement, "Except a man be born again, he
cannot see (perceived spiritual things)... he cannot enter (believes the thing
concerning Christ)...
Before
a man is quickened, he is spiritually dead. I hope you agree with Paul. A
spiritually dead man have no capability to believe. The ability to believe is a
result of new birth.
I
take it as a GIVEN that spiritual life must precede the activities of that
life.... the new birth must precede the activities of that spiritual life, like
ability to perceive spiritual things, and believing spiritual things of Christ.
If we are not agreed on this, then we are TOO far apart on our basic
understanding.
Good night. Need to sleep now.
Hulan
Bass
Bro.
Keith, a GREAT BIG AMEN, then Apple is the Result and not the cause. as in the
natural creation, God did not plant seeds but full grown everything, trees,
animals, fish, and humans.
Ray
Berrian
Salvation
does not 'pop into mid air nor does the Christian tree grow' and develop
'fruit' Galatians 5:22]without--first saving faith in Jesus [John 1:12]. Good
works and the 'fruit of the Spirit' follow faith in Christ which includes
repentance of past sins.
Ray
Berrian
Brother
Lau, You
misquoted John 3:3. You added on 'perceived spiritual things' which anyone can
read, it is not there. Here is the quote:
'Jesus
answered and said to him, Verily, verly I say to you, Except a man be born
again, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.'
Big
difference.
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
Jesus
used an illustration concerning the new birth...If you had no participation in
your earthly birth, you also had no part in your spiritual birth..In either,
you were born, yet in neither did you have a choice, nor did you work to become
a child. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of
the spirit is spirit Ye must be born again.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God...."
Seeing is perceiving the truth concerning the kingdom of God. It is elementary,
sir. You are just TOOOO obtuse not to see that "perceive spiritual
things" is an explanation of "see."
Without
seeing the kingdom of God, there can no entering the same kingdom of God.
And
both the activities of seeing and entering are EFFECTS of the new birth. It is
also elementary.
You
must have life first to enable you to see this post, and seeing this post you
entered into the discussion. The sad thing is though you have physical sight to
see this opening post that started this thread, you did not perceive the
spiritual truth stated!!!
So, I didn't misquote John 3:3. You did not want to accept the plain teaching of John 3:3, sir.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
"Salvation does not 'pop into mid air "
=========
O
yes, there must be Divine popping in your life, otherwise you would still be in
your native state of sin and death!!!
Read
this and understand...
Eph
2
1
¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according
to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children
of disobedience:
3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our
flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature
the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by
grace ye are saved;)
Charles
Page
"Salvation
does 'pop into mid air" we didn't do any popping!!!
Johnny
Davis
Looking
at the great men (can't remember if women were included, or not) of FAITH, each
were righteous and thus saved, which is from the Father, and resulted in the
human actions stated, a result of their faith. They would not have believed in
what was not seen, unless God placed in their hearts, that which caused the
action. I concur, with Sing and Elder Ellis. Man can boast in NOTHING, not
THEIR faith, for it is "spiritual," and "spiritual" comes
only from the Father.
Ray
Berrian
We
don't boast in our faith; it is the key that opens the door of Heaven and
everlasting life to us [I John 5:12-13].
Repentance accompanies faith which means repentance of our sins, which is hardly boastful. It is a sadness over disobeying the Almighty Lord God.
Johnny
Davis
Which
inspired writer said, I boast only in God? Yes, Ray, repent is to turn from,
not just be sorry for sin, or to be "saved," but BECAUSE OF GOD'S
LOVE, GRACE, AND MERCY, and living a life of worship, sin, sijply has no place,
anymore. How can one cotinue in sin, KNOWITH of the grace, that sent Christ to
the Crose, and God forsaking Him.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ "... our faith; it is the key that opens the door of Heaven and
everlasting life to us."
======
Ray,
have you ever tried giving the key to awonderful mansion to a dead man, and
said, "Sir, this is the key that opens to door into that glorious mansion
on Beverly Hills. Use it." If you do believe what you have said, you ought
to demonstrate its truthfulness just once for us - that that dead man will take
the key and open the door of that mansion. Otherwise, you are just DECEIVING
yourself with a PLAIN LIE!!! Just being plain and honest with you - I speak as
a Chinese... no beating round the bush type!!!
How
do you put faith in the hand of the spiritually dead man, and say, "This
is the wonderful key that opens the door of heaven and everlasting life to you.
Use it"? May be, you will piggy back him, carry him to the heaven's door,
hold his hand (with the key) in your hand, guiding the key in his hand to the
keyhole in the heaven's door... and turning his hand to open the heaven's
door....and BINGOOOOOOOOOO .... the door opens, and a dazzling beam of light
zaps through the opened door from heaven struck him, and the dead man you are
piggying is quickened to eternal life.
Is that the scenario, I'm just wondering? Or is it somewhat different? may be you would like to tell us the real scenario. Thanks!
Johnny
Davis
@Ray.
I may be confusing the issue, but then again, may be providing the distinction.
At one time, I was under the impression, that a sinner had to be touched by God
through a preacher (hear the gospel), before faith could come about. Do you
make a distinction in the term "Believe" of John, and the faith,
which Sing speaks of. At one time, I did not.
Sing
F Lau
Johnny,
faith is spiritual virtue worked within a child of God by the indwelling
Spirit.
It
is that grace which enables a child of God to believe.
Regeneration gives everlasting life to the dead. The Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of adoption is given to dwell in a child of God (a regenerated elect). The indwelling Spirit works all the saving graces (the fruit of the Spirit), including faith. This grace enable a child of God to believe.
Johnny
Davis
So,
the yet-to-be-regenerated, and/or, the unregenerate, were "dead," in
what way. If the Holy Spirit indwells in the human, from "before the
foundation of the world," then, "dead" could NOT be,
"spiritually" dead, for such a person, according to God's spiritual
being and His time, ALWAYS are alive. Then, it would not be, physical death,
either, and the dude with God's spirit (or even without), is breathing, and
walking around. I'm just not "up" on what regeneration is, though
wish to understand. It is, a spiritual concept, mentioned specifically, and has
distinct meaning. But, your statement, "gives everlasting life to the
DEAD" puzzles me. I understand, I think, the distinction between faith
(spiritual, agreed, as you said), and belief (a physical, human "good
work" resulting from faith). Yet I simply have not grasped, the FUNCTION,
I suppose, of regeneration in the process, if that is a spiritual term, of
salvation, either here, or later. Thanks for your help, coming from the Father.
Sing
F Lau
DEAD
in that he is completely incapable of doing anything to bring in himself to
God...
In
his native state, man is worse than 'dead' - he is positively hostile, and in
enmity against God.
A
man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins... because of his sinful nature,
he is completely unable to do anything to bring himself to be in favor with
God... he is positively hostile and in enmity against God.
You
believe a FICTION that the Holy Spirit indwells in the human from before the
foundation of the world! That fiction has messed up your thinking! And
regeneration is an instantaneous act of God in bestowing eternal life to a
spiritually dead man.
I'm going out for my MID-night run. It's 11.10PM here.
Ray
Berrian
The
Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their lost condition. There is no
impartation of the Spirit of God to sinners until they yield to Jesus in a
faith-trust commitment.
In
Revelation 3:20 Jesus knocks at the door of the soul; He does not do a forced
entry. He respects the human will. Some reject Jesus [Acts 7:51]. In theology
this is called 'Resistible Grace' in counterdistinction to Calvin's
'Irresistible Grace.'
Calvinism
is only the systematizing of Roman Catholic Augustinianism.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
PLEASE read Rev 3:20 carefully. Those words are addressed to a CHURCH... yes,
to a degenerated and lukewarm CHURCH... not the door of a DEAD MAN'S soul like
you imagined!!!
If
you are interested in discussing Calvin or RC Augustinianism, this is the WRONG
PLACE for you.
Here,
we are ONLY interested in the Scriptures... because we really mean business
when we say Scriptures ALONE. I'm not a calvinist just in case you are
mistaken. I have no interest in the Genevan nor the Harlot of Roman.
So
I suggest to you that you stick to the Scriptures rightly divided... and don't
abuse Scriptures like you had with Rev 3:20.
The
Holy Spirit REGENERATES the dead...
The
Holy Spirit CONVICTS God's children of their sins and the truth of the
salvation by God's free grace... that they may be converted to the truth.
There
are deluded men who want to convict those dead men in the caskets!!! You should
try that sometimes and see the result! <LOOOOL>
Ray
Berrian
Contextually,
I knew this was dealing with the church when you were a preteen. I learn this
in Bible College in 1961. On the other hand, evangelists often use this verse
to invite people to receive Christ as Savior being a sinner. We must open the
door; He does not barge into our lives and He will not force the backslider to
return to fellowship with Him. He may just providentially chastise said this
failing Christian.
What
verse or verse do you want to examine.
I
believe in Prevenient Grace and not Total Depravity. The two words above are, I
think, poorly chosen. No grace enters a sinner until they receive Christ.
What verse are we going to exegete, Pastor Lau?
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
choose better and more precise words, and we can do what you wish. Pick your
choice.
You
have abused Rev 3:20, and you still want to justify it.
O
yes, I do believe that my gracious and merciful God DID BARGE into my life,
freely and sovereignly, without my permission whatsoever... He had to barge
into my life... there was no other way to save me... I was dead in trespasses
and sin, in enmity and hostility against Him, and would never have been able to
give Him the permission!
Haven't
you read, or don't you believe the Scriptures????? Or you put your own opinion
above the Scriptures? "For men shall be... highminded..." warned
Apostle Paul. Highminded men put their opinion above the Bible!
Eph
2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...
4 ¶
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5
EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by
grace ye are saved;)
Have
ever tried calling out to a dead man in a house to open the door for you to
come in to resuscitate him? Have you? Try it next time! Wait for him to open
up! Stupid man waits for the dead man to open up the door. Wise and gracious
man SMASHES down the door and do the rescue. You SEEM to believe in a little
stupid god... My God is infinitely wise...
Ray
Berrian
Your
accusations have been used before by Five Point Calvinists. Beside being dead
in sins, you must also factor in Genesis 1:26 & 27 and James 3:9 which
strongly tells us that all sinners were created 'in the image or similitude of
God.'
This
means that God can approach the sinner after the
Word
of God has touched his heart by the mighty working of the Holy Spirit. He
convinces and convicts sinners of their need of Christ.
As I mentioned before, some sinner reject the calling of the Lord God as demonstrated in Acts 7:51. Both the Jewish fathers under the O.T. and those son under the New Covenant both rejected Jesus and His calling by the Holy Spirit of God.
Sing
F Lau
My
accusations????
No,
it is my plain reasoning with you. If you can't do simple reasoning, this place
isn't for you.
You
can factor in anything you want... I go by the biblical declaration... Being
made in the image of God makes no difference to a man DEAD in sin.
Joh
3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of
the Spirit is spirit."
Prevenient
grace, even if there is such a fable, is out no use to a man born of flesh!!!
1Co
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
And
you believe otherwise... that dead man made in the image of God can hear and
open the door for you to render him some assistance.
I'm
only pointing out the stupidity of your notion [you are clever, but your notion
is stupid], and show you plainly that the Scriptures declares otherwise.
Ray
Berrian
You
have failed to refute my contention taken from Scripture as to sinners
rejecting the call of God in Acts 7:51. This Scripture becomes a bone in your
throat that you cannot dislodge.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
just what do you expect sinners dead in their trespasses and sins to do? To
accept the truth?
And
when some sinners do receive the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, what is
your explanation? That sinners dead in their trespasses and sins are able to
receive the things of the Spirit of God?
I chew bones and crush them and swallow them!!! Ask my wife!!!9y
Ray
Berrian
You
may be a pastor but you are most definitely not a Bible teacher of truth. You
sound like a Primitive Baptist person and not like a Southern Baptist like Dr.
Stanley.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you are a free man... choose the bible teachers you like and enjoy! I told you
before, I'm a Chinese who loves the Bible. I don't ape the white man! I study
the Bible for myself!
3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after
their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto
fables.
Ray
Berrian
Does
old school Baptist suggest your denomination?
Race
has nothing to do with correct theolgy. It does mean we have to bow to the
written Word because it comes from the living Word even Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sing
F Lau
You
are quite mistaken if you think I belong to any denomination. "Old school
baptist" is not a denominational label but a term indicative of their
theological/doctrinal understanding, and old school baptists were staunchly
independent in their church principles.
I
mentioned race only because you boast about having to be like so an so in the
American SB. I do despise with my whole being the patronizing spirit of the
white Christians towards others!
So,
if you can't keep to the theological issue at hand, this is not a place for
you...
Ray
Berrian
Don't
bring up your religious background if you do not want us to ask about what you
meant by 'old school Baptist.' Man up!!
I
also favor Assemby of God churches as well as Southern Baptist Churches.
Primative
Baptists are false teachers believing that God is autocratic in His choice of
who can be saved and who is eternally rejected from His Presence.
I
am a Christian and happen to be an American. My ministry is mainly to Nigerians
and Pakistani. www.spreadthewordministries.org and I do not take any money for
salary; I invest money in our seminaries there.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
who brought up religious background first? You brought up the labels of
Catholic, protestant, Islam first, then the SB and PB, didn't you? And you
brought them up because you were shown to be woefully deficient as well as
irrational in your understanding of Scriptures!
I
told you I am a Chinese, and I'm no black, and I don't take patronizing
nonsense from any white man. I hope you get the point.
If
you want to discuss Bible with your brain switched on, you are welcome to hang
around. Otherwise, you are not oblige to stay. <LOOOOOL>
Dellis
Layne Worsham Sr.
In
reference to Rev 3:20 " Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the
door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
I
use this as an example...Matthew 16:15-17
15
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(
The knock)
16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living
God.
(Proof
that Peter heard the knock, the profession of faith)
17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for
flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(
Jesus and Peter supping together) And...flesh and blood did not reveal it, but
the Father in heaven....Since it was God who revealed it, it was certainly a
spiritual event.
Ray
Berrian
I
agree with you Mr. Chong; Pastor Lau added on his own words to Scripture,
namely, 'perceived spiritual things.'
Big difference that the Greek Biblical reading for John 3:3.
Sing
F Lau
And
Ray... I forgot to say... I'm not impressed with "cemeteries" at
all... first I very much doubt there is a biblical warrant for such a man made
institution. And then it is positively harmful in its work... as a place of
indoctrinating and coercing men with the beliefs of that institution, instead
of teaching them to study and learn the Bible themselves.
Also,
if you wish to pick on the Primitive Baptists, you should go to the right
place.
In
this place... Scriptures alone. All else is irrelevant.
Ray
Berrian
You
said on your Facebook page you were 'old school Baptist.' I was curious about
what you meant and mean by this phrase. No crime has been committed. Are you
sure you are an ordained pastor with your attitude? We just want to know the
meaning of what you said to all of us.
Ray
Berrian
Mr.
Chong in Acts 7:51 both the O.T. Jews and those who Luke was writing about in
the Acts of the Apostles had rejected Jesus even through the convicting and
convincing power of the precious Holy Spirit. The Jews remained obstreperous to
the Triune Godhead even our Savior Jesus Christ.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
Berrian, what's wrong with my attitude?
When
Keith pointed out your obvious error, your retorted, "This amount of space
is poor for discussion."
What
kind of attitude is that?
Then
your patronizing nonsense, " Sing F. Lau needs to suggest a better venue
like the Catholic-Protestant-Islam forum."
And
when you were shown your errors, you call names... Calvinism and Primitive
Baptists... derogatorily!
And
who brought up denominational issues? You did!
What
kind of attitude is that? INSTEAD OWNING UP to one's obvious errors instead of
speaking about attitudes!!!
You
are a great joker!
I
told you many times now.... if you can't put on your brain and stick to the
Scriptures, this place is NOT for you.
Go
and find a place where its attitude suits you, Sir - said with due courtesy.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
, you asked the question, "Does old school Baptist suggest your
denomination?"
You
think and operate in denominational term... You assume the description
"old school baptist" is a denominational term. I explained to you
that the term "old school baptist" is descriptive of the
theological/doctrinal beliefs of those baptists. And what was your reaction to
that?
Your
arrogant and patronizing spirit is betrayed here in this response "Don't
bring up your religious background if you do not want us to ask about what you
meant by 'old school Baptist.' Man up!!"
Who
brought up religious background? You did, sir!
And
you do that because your understanding of Scriptures is shown to be irrational
and woefully deficient!
And
you are TOOOOOOOOOOOOO highminded to admit it! <LOOOOOOOOOOOL>
And
I repeat, if you can't put on your brain and stick to the Scriptures, this
place is NOT for you.
Ray
Berrian
Baptists
can be Primitive Baptists who are five point Calvinists or the Southern Baptists
who are four point Arminians. So to most of us 'old school Baptist's means
nothing. That is why I asked. What is your thinking about those doctrinal
issues.
If
you want to discuss a particular verse or passage let me know.
Sing
F Lau
You
have raised passages and twisted them, and
you won't even admit the irrationality and inconsistencies of your
interpretation. Get them straighten out first.
Your
basic premise is this: the activities of a dead man brings life to him; i.e.
the activities of a man secures his salvation.
My
basic premise is this: life must be given to a dead man before he can perform
the activities of that life; i.e. eternal life must be bestowed to a
spiritually dead man before he can even perceived spiritual things and believe.
And
this premise is founded upon the declaration of Christ: "Except a man be
born again, he CANNOT..." You reject this basic premise.
So,
until we can settle BASIC and ELEMENTARY issue, there is nothing to discuss.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
[John
10:24] Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost
thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
[25]
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my
Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26]
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The
cause is "ye are not of my sheep". The effect is "ye believe
not". A human being who is not one of the sheep of the Lord Jesus Christ
does not have the desire or ability to believe, and such humans do exist.
Regeneration comes first; faith comes as a result of regeneration; belief is an exercise of faith. Thus, anyone who believes has already been previously born of the Spirit, as taught in John 5:24.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
[Romans
8:30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he
called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Regardless
of what one may think "foreknowledge" and "predesitnation"
involve, here is something clearly taught in Romans 8:30 - all whom God calls
are justified, and all whom are justified are glorified.
If, on the day of the general resurrection, an individual is not glorified, then God never called that individual.
Ray
Berrian
Exactly,
Mr. Francisco. Good thoughts and Biblical, therefore, from the Lord.
Sing
F Lau
Samuel,
you are no less confused and misguided than Ray, which explains why he
exclaimed "Exactly." For fear that Ray becomes more entrenched in his
errors by your thoughts, i will now show that your comments are hardly biblical
and quite erroneous! Ray needs as much guidance as you do... at least you are
humble enough to admit it... but Ray is just tooooo highminded - I wish his
exclamation 'exactly' was with respect your confession of needing guidance!
<LOL>
You
wrote:
"I
believe this is the point, Brother Ray Berrian is making -He says that even
though we are dead in tresspasses and sins, we are[still] made in GOD's image -
in our emotions and attitudes we exercise, in the right manner and GOD-honoring?..."
Samuel,
you are believing the sweet lie of the devil that a man dead in trespasses and
sins is capable of exercising his emotions and attitudes in the right manner
and God-honoring way. [The fact that he is made in the image of God DOES NOT
ALTER the matter one-tittle!]
The
Scriptures declare thus about man by nature (dead in trespasses and sins):
-
"There is none righteous, no, not one... There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God... There is no fear of God before their
eyes." Rom 3:11-18
-
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God..." Rom 5:10
-
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to
the law of God, neither indeed can be." Rom 8:7.
The
Scriptures repudiate your fiction!! You believe a fable! Your diagnosis of man
in his native state of sin and death is completely fictional, and biblical. Ray
has the same problem. His is spiritually dead man can perform acts in order to
be saved by God!
You
said,
"No
and never was because of our love for sin and arrogant attitude."
I
can't make any sense of what you mean by this sentence.
You
said,
"However
when the Holy Spirit convicts and shows a sinner his need for a Savior than by
choice -thinking turns into actions- His faith in JESUS saves him. Holy Spirit
still works and therefore pops in the hearts and spirits of wicked men and
women, through prayer and witnessing opportunities we exercise towards these
people."
Samuel,
there is one GREAT OMISSION - the Holy Spirit must REGENERATES them dead in
trespasses and sins first. The dead must be brought to life first. Christ said,
"EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT..." PERIOD. Except a man be
again, no amount of conviction and demonstration will have any effect upon the
dead in trespasses and sins. Only those that have been born again is capable of
being shown their glorious Savior, and capable of SEEING (i.e. perceiving the
truth of their salvation by God's free grace), and ENTERING (making the
decision to believe in Jesus as the Christ.
So,
yes, the Holy Spirit works freely and sovereignly to REGENERATE sinners dead in
trespasses and sins. And He does this work of regeneration WITHOUT your prayers
and without your witnessing towards these people. Yes, through His Spirit, God
freely POP POP POP salvation to sinners under the condemnation of sin and
death!!!
The
Lord Jesus declares how His Spirit works in regeneration, " 8 The wind
bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not
tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of
the Spirit" - yes, WITHOUT your prayers and without your witnessing
towards these people. Every child of God is regenerated by the Spirit of God
SOVEREIGNLY and FREELY without man's help.
Ray
needs as much guidance as you do...
Ray
Berrian
All
Mr. Lau has is a tad of Biblical knowledge and he tries to suggest that he has
a perfect understanding of Scripture. I can take on any theologian in a debate
and use only 1/3rd of my brain and still win the discussion if he or she is
giving a wrong exegesis. I have studied in Calvinistic and Arminian seminaries
and I know all the angles of thought.
Sing
F Lau
'Perilous
times shall come... for men shall be boasters...." Apostle Paul warned.
Ray
is a great theologian who can't even get Rev 3:20 right, but he boasts up to
the third heaven!
That's
the whole problem... Ray went to "cemeteries" and came out brain dead
and not knowing it!!! Nothing seminal about that at all... just brain dead! 😉
Seriously
Ray, you can boast and practice your patronizing nonsense in Africa and
Pakistan, and anywhere else you like, but not here. ... I'm a student of Jesus
Christ, and I don't entertain nor tolerate such here.
Ray
Berrian
Is
this the best you can do being an uneducated man in the Holy Scriptures. And by
the way I took two courses in Advanced Hermaneutics with 300+ Q & A in each
course. I know how to exegete Holy Scripture. This surpasses the abilities of a
small town pastor; this is just so you understand the difference.
If
you were spoon fed only Total Depravity and Unconditional Election then that is
all you can prattle. I understand your extreme limitations.
Your
defensiveness is obvious with words like, ' . . . Ray went to
"cemeteries" and came out brain dead and not knowing it!!!
Study
Mr. Lau; this is the key to correct interpretation of the Word of God.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you have very very impressive credentials, probably the most learned man this
village pastor have ever met! Thanks for revealing your credentials. I can't
claim any... I'm not even a small town pastor... just a village preacher.
Cemeteries
brainwash their students and cripple their studying, and learning ability... as
well as puff them up with pride... like the way you messed up Rev 3:20; like
the way you are incapable of getting the sense and grave implications of
Christ's words in John 3:3,6.
And
you are much to proud to admit your errors!
Apostle
Paul said,
"Men
shall be ... ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the
truth."
You
are a classic example. Your Advance Hismannewticks (Hermeneutics) did not help
you to rightly divide Rev 3:20!!!
2Ti
2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not
to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Hulan
Bass
Rev.
3:20 is written to a Luke Warm Church, not to a dead alien unregenerated
sinner. Supping together is for the already ALIVE person. We don't sup or eat
"in order to" get life.
Sing
F Lau
Thank
you for such simple truth that a village preacher can understand!
Mr
Bass, did you take more than two courses in Advanced Hermeneutics? <LOL>
Why
Ray did two courses in Advanced Hismannewticks but can't get it right!!! 😉
Good
night! It's just past midnight here.
Ray
Berrian
I
am glad I had the opportunity to study. Thanks be to God that He can receive
all the glory. I am like a speck of dust in His sight but have been given
special gifts to exegete Scripture.
Your
ministry is not little in the sight of the Lord or me. You work is very
important.
Even
the little that we do for Him is much when God is in our ministries. Enjoy your
ministry and keep studying what other expositors of the Word have to say.
Hulan
Bass
Bro.
Sing Lau, according to the K.J.T. we are Brothers in Christ, and just Mr.
Ray
Berrian
Yes,
Hulan, we are brothers in the Lord and each of us is important in His sight.
Hulan
Bass
The
texts being employed to defend “salvation” is not “rightly divided.”
The
TRUTH IS – these texts about little children are not addressing ETERNAL Salvation,
but TIMELY Salvation (Deliverance) by the GOSPEL, and the Kingdom herein
is the CHURCH ON EARTH. So far as little children, even new-born babies
are NOT necessarily, in fact, few are born-again at their early age, as
is declared clearly in Psalms 51:5; 58:3; You can be grown 30, 50, 80 whatever
and still be ignorant, without proper knowledge and understanding, as
a child on milk – still – 1st Cor. 2:14—16; 3:1-3; Heb. 5:12—14. Next, the
word “Kingdom” in the K.J.T. has many different applications in each
different context, and most are that of the CHURCH ON EARTH, Gospel
and Timely. HEAVEN and the KINGDOM thereof are contextually different,
mostly, There are applications of Kingdom meaning, Born-again,
or,
with proper knowledge, joining the Church on Earth as many are still
in
their gospel and timely ignorance – Rom. 10:1—4, and then finally, here
is
a clear Eternal Context – Matt. 25:31—34 that we Inherit. Yet, while we
sojourn
on earth there is a phase of the Kingdom we PRESS INTO - Luke
16:16 which we are appointed – Luke 22:29. Now please always RIGHTLY
DIVIDE each context. Kindly, Hulan Bass
Ray
Berrian
Salvation
is as simple as saying yes to Jesus and following Him by living a life of
holiness. What says Isaiah 35:8?
' .
. . the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.'
Ray
Berrian
Mr.
Francisco, Getting
saved is not a complex series of events.
In
three out of the four Gospels God talks about the faith of children. [Matt.
19:14; Mark 10:14; Luke 18:16.
15
Let's define what Luke meant by '. . . infants.' βρέΦη {brepha} refers to a
young child probably any age from two to seven. The parents wanted Jesus to
bless them but the apostles did not think this was necessary.
16
Essentially, Jesus called them to Himself. He may have called them by their
first names giving special attention to each child. Our Lord said, "The
Kingdom of God is filled with people with child like, trusting faith in
Him."
17
The children did not come to Christ with an evil or questioning agenda. They
knew of His miracles and of His kindness and were eager to be in His Presence.
In the same way, sinners must come to Jesus knowing their guilt before Him, yet
seeking the miracle of a changed heart and life. People must want Him more than
their sins or they will never see the beatific {happy} reality of seeing Jesus
and of reuniting with their saved loved ones. The English word 'beatific' comes
from the Latin word beatificus meaning {made joyful, blissful, ecstatic}.
Hulan
Bass
Dear
Bro. Berrian, AMEN to your posting about little children. I was only concerned
that such cannot be UNIVERSAL, or else we have conflict in the K.J.T. Okay?
Sing
F Lau
Samuel
said, "It is funny, the detailed analytics of Brother Lau they just
aggravate a simple truth that cannot get any simpler....
===========
It
is indeed very simple...
-
by nature a man is dead in trespasses and sins..
-
the Spirit of God regenerates a man like that...
-
that explains everything else that follows..
THAT
IS, eternal salvation is given to a man dead in trespasses and sins, then and
only then, he is able to perceive spiritual truth, ad believe it.
Rejection
of the gracious and prior work of the Spirit of God complicates and repudiates
the simple truth... you and Ray do just that!
How
simple could it get?
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ "Getting saved is not a complex series of events."
===========
Getting
saved (in the eternal sense) is so simple that no man can perform it, but
wholly and solely by God's SINGULAR and immediate and sovereign act alone.
Eph
2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins... But
God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us... even
when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye
are saved.
How
difficult for deceived and misguided children of God to receive this simple
truth. Many of God's children REJECT and REPUDIATE "by grace are ye saved."
They insist on their works... the activities they must perform in order to be
saved!
Instead
of recognizing this great work of God in salvation, Ray is obsessed with what
sinners dead in their trespasses and sins must do to be saved.
That's
another gospel...
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ Salvation is as simple as saying yes to Jesus and following Him by living a
life of holiness.
===========
It
is indeed as simple as a dead man saying yes and opening the door for you to
come in to dine with him; it
is as simple as a man in enmity against Christ agreeing to Christ's lordship
and follow Him; it
is as simple as a man who is a servant of sin to live a life of holiness.
You
most certainly believe in a salvation that comes by the works of men.
You
have all along strenuously REJECTED and REPUDIATED the absolute necessity of
God's gracious and PRIOR activity of quickening the dead in trespasses and
sins. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he
loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with
Christ, (by grace ye are saved..." The disjunctive 'but' points to the
native state of man before this sovereign and gracious act quickening the dead.
But
you INSIST sinners in their native state of sin and death can say yes and
follow Jesus by living a life of holiness.
You are preaching a false gospel!
PJ
Walters
Even
faced with the fact that faith is in the list of the fruit of the Spirit, Mr.
Ray still asserts that faith must precede the Spirit.
Mr.
Ray, please, tell us how an effect precedes its cause.
Sing
F Lau
Brother
Elder Keith pointed out this truth at the beginning to Ray. He either didn't
notice, ignored it, or rejected such obvious truth. It doesn't fit his
man-centred scheme of salvation.
PJ
Walters
Perhaps
it be too simple a concept for the high and wise, but easy for little village
boys and backwoods rednecks?
Ray
Berrian
Salvation
comes from the calling of the Holy Spirit on a person's life. Salvation is by
pure grace.
Ray
Berrian
Titus
4:5; Ephesians 2:8-10; I John 5:12-13; John 3:16 is a sample of God's call to
eternal salvation.
Sing
F Lau
Thanks,
Ray. Please
state in a few words the condition of the those people WHEN the Triune God call
them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
"Salvation
is by pure grace" is a meaningless shibboleth mouth by many. You are one
such men by what you have insisted so far.
"By
pure grace", if words have any more meaning, necessarily EXCLUDES any
activities of those saved... but you have so strenuously insisted on the
activities of man in order for them to be saved. That's hardly grace, much less
pure!!!
Many
hold to adulterated and contaminated grace... but masquerading it as "pure
grace" nonetheless.
Ray
Berrian
What
is your understanding of Romans 10:14 & 17?
Sing
F Lau
Kindly
answer my question first, and I will tell you my understanding of that passage
in Romans 10.
My question is: Please state in a few words the condition of those people WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
Ray
Berrian
All
sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved. Sinners and Christians are
capable of committing any sin and Christians can attain to high levels of holy
living/personal holiness. [I Peter 1:15-16]
With
this depravity in every human being [Romans 3:23 & I John 1:8] {the latter
the Adamic nature/Original Sin} we cannot reject the fact that in Genesis 1:26-27
and James 3:9 indicates that each human being is created after the likeness to
God. The Apostle Paul being the penman for God says in I Corinthians 11:7 that
'The
man ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the 'image and glory of
God.'
G.F.
Oehler contends that ' . . . the original pattern is reproduced in man and that
propagation in every person is His Image in humankind.'
The
truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the
breath of lives {plural}. Deilitzsch writes,
'That
man not only has imparted to him life but that life entails 'the Personality of
God so man may become a living soul. The material body of a man or woman
receives a Divinely-inbreathed spirit. {not the Holy Spirit} Within this
concept humankind is mysteriously place under moral law going back some six
thousand year to the time of Adam and Eve.'
Fallen
man retains the image of God and this reality defines the extent of his
degradation. If the 'image of God' was lost to every human being, man's conscience
also would be incognito as to the moral law of the living God.
If
we were totally depraved God could approach a man but he never for all eternity
could respond to the calling of the precious Holy Spirit. He would be like an
animal, unable to respond to Jesus' plan of salvation--ever.
The
truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the
breath of lives {plural}. The plural lives refers to the human spirit that we
receive when we are born, plus all of the attributes that the Lord God has are
breathed into us also at the time of our human birth. This causes us to be
created in the image of God. We know how to love because God is love. We
understand justice only because it is imputed to our spirit at birth. The
sinner also with his choice can be merciful to other human beings without
knowing Jesus in saving faith. Why? Because of the image of God in a man or
woman.
Please,
think clearly here. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit who comes into
our lives when we believe and trust in Jesus as our Savior and Lord. This
process is called regeneration of our soul and human spirit; this causes us to
have the Presence of the Holy Spirit and we are ' . . . sealed unto the day of
our final redemption' in Heaven. [Ephesians 4:30].
Yes human beings are depraved but never reject the fact that we were create in the image of the living God. This is the Biblical and balanced view of the depravity of humankind.
Ray
Berrian
As
to what I said, I was discussing 'Total Depravity' and not and explanation of
salvation through Jesus. The issue was depravity of the sinner and also the
fact that he or she is created in the image of God as I documented above in the
N.T. The sinner is reachable because the Holy Spirit knocks at the heart and
life of all sinners who have access to the plan of salvation.
Ray
Berrian
We
used to sing this in our church when I was a kid.
Do
you have any insight as to the menaing of every person being born 'in the image
of God?'
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
I'm not interested in total depravity. Since you have raised the subject,
please tell us what is total depravity?
I'm
only asking you to state in few words the condition of the those people WHEN
the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
I'm
not asking about the makeup of man made in the image of God. That's a
completely different matter.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ "All sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved."
Same
question: state in few words the extent of the depravity of those sinners WHEN
the Triune God call them unto eternal salvation. Thanks.
How
depraved are those shown mercy here?
4 ¶
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by
grace ye are saved;)
How
depraved are those who are dead in trespasses and sins?
Ray
Berrian|
I
am surprised, Pastor Lau, that you have not had to memorize the meaning of Reformed
theology on this issue of Total Depravity.
Do
a SEARCH and you will get the Calvinistic perspective, which is a narrow view
of the Word of God.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you make a serious assumption... that I'm a student of reformed theology or
calvinism! Quite mistaken, sir. Quite mistaken. So, no need to sidetrack the
issue. Red herring doesn't work with me! <LOL>
I'm
a student of the Bible, and am interested in what the Scriptures declares about
the state of those sinners WHEN the Triune God call them unto eternal
salvation. So, state them if you wish, else hold your peace.
I
can see that you have memorized the some teaching of men! Quoting men is
futile... quoting Scriptures and rightly divide them is fruitful. Try it, sir!
Ray
Berrian
Study,
Pastor Lau, you are clearly Calvinistic on the first point of Calvinism. The
sinner so dead and cannot turn to the Lord because he is like a dead man toward
spiritual issues. You are not Biblical on this issue as I have so clearly
explained to you and others about the sinner's ability to receive Christ as
Savior [John 1:12].
Hulan
Bass
A
good parallel is to sent preachers to the cemeteries and try get the bodies to
just blink an eye, indicating that they want LIFE so they can be brought up out
of the grave. That would be Calvinism and Arminianism.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
if a teaching is according to the Scriptures, it doesn't matter what label you want
to associate with it. Just prove that it is not in the Scriptures.
John
1:12 DOESN'T help you at all.... Verse 13 repudiate you fable!!! It states that
being born of God must PRECEDE believing; being born of God enables faith in
the Son of God.
Verse
13:
Which
were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.
WERE
born... explaining the believing activity!
And
this new birth is not:
-
of blood (natural lineage)
-
the will of the flesh (his own power)
-
the will of man (human instrumentality).
Verse
12 says, believing in Jesus Christ gives a man the right and authority to
claim/call himself a child of God, and the explanation for that is found in
verse 13!
So, you are believing a fable.
Sing
F Lau
Samuel,
I fear you have no inkling of what spiritual deadness means by your silly
question - How could anyone be so dead to not realize their sinnership?
We
know what a dead man can do! Deadness speaks of the utter inability to do those
acts that accompany the opposite, that is, life. A dead man has no ability to
do whatsoever those activities that accompanies life.
When
the Scriptures declare that man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins, it
states his complete inability of performing those activities of spiritual life.
He must be given spiritual life first before he could perform any activities
that accompany that life, like the capacity to perceive the things of the
Spirit of God, believing them, and repenting, etc.
Man
dead in trespasses and sins is NOT dead in his active ENMITY and rebellion
against God... he is very much alive in his sin... he revels in his
sinnership... he is willingly a slave of sin... he is positively antagonistic
against the things of God...
You are completely misguided on the matter... just stating a fact. You may be pissed off... if that be the case, too bad. You speak as a theologian, and I respond to you as such. If you are a student, I would be real patient and tender with you!!!
Ray
Berrian
You
have locked down your first and second doctrines begun with the top Roman
Catholic theolgian, Augustine and later systematized by John Calvin in CALVIN'S
INSTITUTES. Do you also believe in Limited Atonement/Particular Atonement?
Sing
F Lau
Be
careful Samuel., else you be blocked for your stupidity and foolishness here. If
you can't engage in decent discussion, you shall be sacked from here... or you
can choose to remove yourself!
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
it would be more credible if you can refute the teaching of plain Scriptures.
There is NOOOOOOO need to pick at Augustin or Calvin... I have no interest in
them... they are not here to defend themselves either.
Deal
with the Scriptures.... if you can't or won't, hold your peace, sir.
PJ
Walters
I
believe in a definite and absolute atonement. Others may keep their worthless
indefinite and relative atonement; I will have none of it.
Ray
Berrian
As
to Unconditional Election this means that the Lord only came to save some souls
and to willfully damn other sinners. Reformed theology shows the Lord God as
being partial and not God of Divine Justice/fairness.
Problem:
The Lord is not partial toward some to take them to Heaven and to damn the
majority of humankind. Study: Romans 22:11, II Samuel 14:14; Deuteronomy 10:17;
the Book of Job 34:19.
Sing
F Lau
Let
stay on the unresolved matter yet...
Ray,
state in few words the condition of those people WHEN the Triune God call
them unto eternal salvation.
Samuel, more childish nonsense from you, you will lose your privilege here.
PJ
Walters
Mr.
Ray, your last comment presupposes that we believe double predestination to be
true. It is a misrepresentation and a red herring.
We
believe that the elect are predestinated to heaven based solely upon the blood
and righteousness of Christ, and that the non-elect are ordained to damnation
based upon sin.
Now, please get back to and stick to the our question concerning man in his native state of sin and death.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
maybe you have stated the Reformed Theology RIGHTLY... that God willfully damns
other sinners! Maybe you are right. I'm not acquainted with Reformed Theology.
I'm most certainly acquainted with the Scriptures, though I am still studying
them. I do believe Reformed Theology has some serious deformities.... but that is another subject altogether.
The
Scriptures don't teach that God damns any sinners. It teaches that SINNERS
have DAMNED themselves by their sins - both imputed sins and actual sins. Why?
The WAGES of sin is DEATH!!! All have sinned in Adam, and all are conceived and
born in sins, grow up in sin, and WILL MOST CERTAINLY die and PERISH in sin...
UNTIL and UNLESS divine grace intervenes, freely and sovereignly! It has to be
freely and sovereignly!
But
you insist that sinners dead in trespasses and sins can, and must do something,
then God will intervene to help them.
The simple truth is: God must intervene first and QUICKEN the spiritually dead sinners before they could perform any spiritual activities. BUT you have nothing of this truth... but prefer the fiction and fable that action precedes life!!!
Ray
Berrian
All
sinners are depraved but not Totally Depraved. Sinners and Christians are
capable of committing any sin and Christians can attain to high levels of holy
living/personal holiness. [I Peter 1:15-16]
With
this depravity in every human being [Romans 3:23 &* I John 1:8] {the latter
the Adamic nature/Original Sin} we cannot reject the fact that in Genesis
1:26-27 and James 3:9 indicates that each human being is created after the
likeness to God. The Apostle Paul being the penman for God says in I
Corinthians 11:7 that
'The
man ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the 'image and glory of
God.'
G.F.
Oehler contends that ' . . . the original pattern is reproduced in man and that
propagation in every person is His Image in humankind.'
The
truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the
breath of lives {plural}. Delitzsch writes,
'That
man not only has imparted to him life but that life entails 'the Personality of
God so man may become a living soul. The material body of a man or woman
receives a Divinely-inbreathed spirit. {not the Holy Spirit} Within this
concept humankind is mysteriously placed under moral law going back some six
thousand year to the time of Adam and Eve.'
Fallen
man retains the image of God and this reality defines the extent of his
degradation. If the 'image of God' was lost to every human being, man's
conscience also would be incognito as to the moral law of the living God.
If
we were totally depraved God could approach a man but he never for all eternity
could respond to the calling of the precious Holy Spirit. He would be like an
animal, unable to respond to Jesus' plan of salvation--ever.
The
truth of the original language tells us that ELOHIM 'breathed into Adam the
breath of lives {plural}. The plural lives refers to the human spirit that we
receive when we are born, plus all of the attributes that the Lord God has are
breathed into us also at the time of our human birth. This causes us to be
created in the image of God. We know how to love because God is love. We
understand justice only because it is imputed to our spirit at birth. The
sinner also with his choice can be merciful to other human beings without
knowing Jesus in saving faith. Why? Because of the image of God in a man or
woman.
Please,
think clearly here. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit who comes into
our lives when we believe and trust in Jesus as our Savior and Lord. This
process is called regeneration of our soul and human spirit; this causes us to
have the Presence of the Holy Spirit and we are ' . . . sealed unto the day of
our final redemption' in Heaven. [Ephesians 4:30].
Yes
human beings are depraved but never reject the fact that we were create in the
image of the living God. This is the Biblical and balanced view of the
depravity of humankind.
Sing
F Lau
Hey
Ray, repetition of a lie does not, and will not morph it into a truth!!!
<LOL>
You
copy and paste the above comment from the SAME comment you posted 6hr ago!!!
Maybe you have forgotten. Never mind, sometimes repetition is useful... both ways.
PJ
Walters
Adam
corrupted that image!
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
1Pet
1:15-16 are dealing with those Peter described as
"Elect
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the
Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto
you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 ¶
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his
abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of
Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved
in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be
revealed in the last time."
Why
would you even pick this passage to demonstrate your fable and LIE - that
sinners dead in trespasses and sins are able to act in such a way to obtain
salvation from God.
This
passage DECLARES the opposite!!! Don't you even read????
That's
why the first time you posted it, I didn't even bother to deal with it!!!
Ray
Berrian
Pastor
Lau, since
you did not respond to my long explanation of the sinner's condition of soul, I
thought I would repeat it so you get the benefit of the Hebrew word meaning. No
repetition was intended here. Respond to people's comments and don't just let
them pass by you.
Sinners
are lost and depraved but do have a conscience and do understand the plan of
salvation. As the Spirit of God works in their mind and on their life they will
either yield to Jesus or will reject or neglect Him.
I did not get to your I Peter 1:15-16 passage yet.
PJ
Walters
This
is an express denial of 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Ray
Berrian
The
sinner does not understand nor does he care about spirutual issues or truth;
that is true.
Sinners
do know they are sinners and when the Gospel is heard and the Spirit of God is
at work in the minds of lost souls, they understand the concepts of Jesus dying
on the Cross, paying for their sins, and their need to receive Christ to
receive inner peace and Divine forgiveness.
The
Lord visits sinner with the Holy Spirit and CONVICTS people of their sins [John
8:9].
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
@ "Sinners are lost and depraved but do have a conscience and do
understand the plan of salvation. As the Spirit of God works in their mind and
on their life they will either yield to Jesus or will reject or neglect Him.
"
==========
You
may be a little confused here. See if I can help you see your own confusion...
Man
is man, a moral creature made in the image of God... whether he is dead in
trespasses and sins, or quickened by the Spirit. The conscience of a man dead
in trespasses and sins DOES NOTHING to help him to perceive spiritual things.
The
FIRST work of the Spirit upon a man dead in trespasses and sins is to QUICKEN
him from his state of spiritual death! "EXCEPT a man be born again, he
CANNOT..." did you hear the words of Christ??? You insist otherwise.
You
have also OPENLY in defiance of Paul's words
"But
the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned."
Apostle
Paul declares NO, you insist yes!
Ray
Berrian
The
thief on the Cross first asked Jesus to remember Him when He came into His
Kingdom. He was not that depraved that he did not know to ask Jesus for help.
Jesus
always responds to our call for help and salvation when we were sinners. What
did Jesus say in this instance while both were on the Cross.
'Today
you will be with Me in Paradise.'
This
is not difficult Math. Accept Jesus teachings with thanksgiving. The thief did
and was made fit for Heaven and everlasting life.
PJ
Walters
Man
by nature is totally depraved. Born again man is depraved, but not totally!
Sing
F Lau
It
is HARD Math for man to accept that in his native state of sin and death, he
cannot see nor enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus
declares, "EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT see...."
It
is very SIMPLE Math to conclude that when a man is able to see the kingdom of
God, like the thief on the cross, he has been born again of God. Those born of
God are delivered from their deadness to spiritual things.
PJ
Walters
"Let
favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the
land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of
the LORD." Isaiah 26:10
Yet
he says that a man may be shown favour (grace) and that man will learn
righteousness!
PJ
Walters
"Because
they have no changes, therefore they fear not God." Psalm 55:19b
Sing
F Lau
Ray
is joined to his fables... I
will leave him to his beliefs.
"The
most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has
not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made
clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows
already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo
Tolstoy –
PJ
Walters
Leave
him to his belief? More like his unbelief!
Ray
Berrian
Liberals
believe that everyone is saved; all we have to do is go and tell them they are
the children of God. Thank God this is not either Pj nor Pastor Lau. You simply
believe that the Lord choses the sinners He wants to save eternally, empowers
and transforms their souls through the 'new birth' and then tells them here is
the gift of faith; take it.
The
thief on the Cross asked for a Divine favor which took a degree of faith that
Jesus would respond in a positive way. [Luke 23:42] Only then, did Jesus
respond with His Divine promise. [Luke 23:43].
'And
Jesus said unto him. Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in
Paradise.'
Don't
rearrange the order of the dialogue. First the thief asked and finally Jesus
responded to the thief's attempt at having faith in the One who he saw as being
able to save his soul.'
Ray
Berrian
Knowing
the Word of God and teaching it is more important to a pastor and those who
hear him then quoting from a sinner with clever words like Tolstoy.
The
man of God must deliver the Lord's message with a Thus saith the Lord and not
the mental wanderings that mislead the flock.
How
many infants and children does the Lord pass by and not give them the message
of eternal salvation? It sure must be nice to be those infants and children who
are graced with His salvific benefits. But to the rest of the children and lost
adults, He allegedly leaves them in their sins. They were dead toward God
anyway and can only blame themselves at the White Throne Judgment at the end of
the age. Their sins sent them to Hell which was their horrible situation.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you are a smart aleck!
"Knowing
the Word of God and teaching it is more important to a pastor and those who
hear him then quoting from a sinner with clever words like Tolstoy.
=========
Go
and tell that to Apostle Paul when he quoted the pagan poets and prophet (Acts
17:28, Titus 1:12) to shame the smart alecks!
Ac
17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your
own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Tit
1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are
alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Sing
F Lau
Ray,
you are probably the MOST OBTUSE man I have come across... and this is why:
You
said, "Don't rearrange the order of the dialogue. First the thief asked
and finally Jesus responded to the thief's attempt at having faith in the One
who he saw as being able to save his soul."
But
who is rearranging the order of dialogue?
The
issue is: what explains for the dialogue!
You
have not answered the question... what enabled a the thief, a man conceived and
born in sin, dead in trespasses and sins... to see Christ as the Saviour and
seek for mercy?
What
explains the thief's attempt at faith? When you see a man who was DEAD but now
asking for food, don't you want to ask, what was done to the dead man such
that he wants food now?
EXCEPT
the Spirit of God HAS ALREADY REGENERATED him, would the thief be able to do
what he did? WITHOUT that SAVING activity of the Spirit of God, would the thief
be able to SEE Jesus as the Christ???
Is
that a simple enough question?
I repeat, you are the most obtuse and incorrigible man I have encountered on Facebook... just stating fact from my perspective!
Ray
Berrian
You
already have ignored my lengthy paragraphs explaining that man is depraved but
also has deeply imbedded in his spirit 'the image of the living God' {James 3:9
& Genesis 1:26 & 27]. All of the attributes of the Lord are invested in
every sinner, with the added factor of a conscience that has in it the moral
laws of God.
The
sinner is not dead toward God, to the extent that when someone witnesses to a
sinner, or preaches in a congregation where a sinner is seated or a tract is
given, this gives the Holy Spirit the open opportunity to speak to the person's
lost condition of sinfulness.
Romans
10:9-17 indicates that God sends preachers so sinners can hear the plan of
salvation.
'Faith
comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.'
You
contention is that a sinner is born of the Holy Spirit before or after he hears
and then the light of faith goes on in his mind and heart.
The
thief on the Cross heard and saw Jesus and the Spirit caused him to realize
that He is the Son of God and Savior of the world. And then the thief said
'Remember me . . . ' What then? The answer to his asking.
'Today
you will be with Me in Paradise.'
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ "Romans 10:9-17 indicates that God sends preachers so sinners can hear
the plan of salvation.
'Faith
comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.'
============
No,
God sends preachers so that His CHILDREN can hear the GOOD NEWS of the salvation
He has accomplished for them in Jesus Christ.
ONLY
His children - sinners whom He has regenerated by His free and sovereign
activity when they were still dead in their trespasses and sins - are able to
hear the glorious good news of their salvation.
The
grandest plan of salvation is of no use to those dead in trespasses and sins.
You are completely deceived!!!
Sinners
who are not already regenerated by God have no capability to hear the things of
the Spirit of God. The gospel is foolishness to them!!!
"For
the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us
which are saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18.
You
can continue with your fiction and fable!
Gospel
preaching can bring out faith from God's children ONLY... it CANNOT and WILL
NOT bring faith out from those who are still dead in trespasses and sins.
Why
is this PLAIN and OBVIOUS truth so difficult for your to accept??????
PJ
Walters
I
see in Mr. Ray's comments a blatant denial of original sin.
PJ
Walters
He
is also continuing with what the serpent said, "Ye shall not surely
die." He says, "They are not really dead!"
Ray
Berrian
I
believe in Original Sin, Pj. You have trouble accepting what people write on
this venue.
PJ
Walters
Furthermore,
Mr. Ray is attempting to sidestep "dead in sins" by his own
redefining of what it means; instead, he should take it for what it is and
admit that man by nature has no ability of his own to do good, or any desire
thereunto, and that it is God which worketh in men both to will and to do of
his own good pleasure.
PJ
Walters
Yes,
I do have a problem with what people write on this particular venue as the word
of God teaches otherwise.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
believes in original sin...
Tell
us, Ray, what is original sin, and what is the actual implications and effects
of your idea of "Original Sin".
Thank
you very much.
One
sly Yankee told me long ago this, 'He who defines always wins."
Pj
describes you spot on: you are continuing on with what the serpent said.
Thanks, Pj Walters, that is an apt observation.
The
whole idea is really stupid, oxymoronic: "he is dead, but not really
dead!!!
Sing
F Lau
The
dead man inside his house is reachable by Ray knocking on the door of the dead
man's house... the dead man has the golden opportunity to open up and invite
Ray into the house to dine with the dead man! Yes, comical INDEED! I don't even
know why Ray doesn't see the futility of his fable!
Why
is it so hard for him to admit the PREREQUISITE divine work of regenerating
sinners dead in trespasses and sins BEFORE they can do anything.... Why is it
so hard to accept the declaration of Jesus the Christ, "
EXCEPT
a man be born again, he CANNOT...
How
dead is a man dead in trespasses and sins?
Ray
said dead, but no so dead... there is some spark of live that enable him to
open the door when the Spirit come knocking!
Jesus
the Christ said, 'CANNOT... " Ray the highminded man repudiates Jesus
words, and insisted, "CAN CAN CAN..."
Let
God be true but every man a LIAR!
Ray
Berrian
I
went to a Reformed seminary for one year and I was told that there were infants
who were non-elect.
Pastor Lau, your allusion to 'a dead man' shows me your gullibility and blindness to the truth of humans being all made after the likeness of God and not after the similitude of the Devil. The N.T. does not refer to a dead man illustration. I heard this back in 1961 so the illustration is not new with you.
Sing
F Lau
Ray
@ The N.T. does not refer to a dead man illustration.
=======
Yes,
dead in trespasses and sins... rendering a man incapable of performing any act
that brings him to God... even though he is very alive in his enmity and
rebellion again God... rejecting the gospel as foolishness...
Yes,
so dead that EXCEPT he is born of God, he CANNOT... CANNOT perceive the truth
concerning the kingdom of God...
You
are either blind or choose not to believe what is plainly stated in the Scriptures!!!
Have you heard it only in 1961? I heard it said in the 1st century!
Ray
Berrian
After
the Word is given the Spirit of God calls sinners to Christ. They do not always
respond as we well know from Acts 7:51.
Ray
Berrian
I
am happy that the Scripture trumps your personal ideas and has kept you from
believing in Irresistible Grace. Thanks be to the Lord God.
Ray
Berrian
Chong, explain
Acts 7:51. If you cannot do this we will know you do not want to understand
what the Lord is saying about these Jews and all the people of the world who
willingly reject or neglect receiving Christ as Savior and Lord of their lives.
Ray
Berrian
God
is blessing our teaching in all parts of the world.
Sing F Lau
Ray,
"God is blessing our teaching in all parts of the world."
=======
That
is no measure of truth!
Man
loves LIES too!!
