That they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil

 

2Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

If God peradventure will give them repentance...
To whom does the pronoun 'them' refer:
- careless and foolish children of God, or
- those that are still dead in trespasses and sin?

(peradventure: an adverb, archaic: PERHAPS, POSSIBLY)

1. Who are those who oppose themselves?

2. In what ways do they oppose themselves?

3. Who are they that are taken captive by the devil at his will?

4. Who are they that may RECOVER themselves out of the snare of the devil?

5. How are they to recover themselves from the snare of the devil?

6. Are those still dead in trespasses and sins capable of being instructed concerning spiritual things?

7. What do you think of the idea of God giving repentance to them that are still dead in trespasses and sins?  What good will it do?

Please give some answers and the reasons for them. Thanks.

BE CAREFUL - God's own children may be foolishly OPPOSING THEMSELVES!

Please give some answers and the reasons for them. Thanks.
--------

Troy Thomas
“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10

I cannot manufacture godly sorrow, but I can pray that God would grant me godly sorrow. However, this may bring on tribulation. I must learn to be comforted by HIS rod and staff. 

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
The verb translated "oppose" is a present participle in the middle voice which can have a reflexive sense in Greek, but used reflexively the subject may be understood to be acting on or for himself, and the latter seems to be a much more reasonable translation. It's in the accusative, answering the question of whom is to be instructed. Those who are opposing (the truth) are to be instructed.

YLT: in meekness instructing those opposing

What they are opposing is the correct handling of the Word of truth. We can gently instruct, but it is God who must give repentance. Our instruction is just the means by which he grants it. The people he is referring to are people ensnared by the Devil, doing his will and lacking a knowledge of the truth.

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Since salvation is through the belief of the truth as in 2 Th 2:13. it would seem that the people referred to in Timothy do not possess this faith, although they may have professed it at some earlier point.

The word translated "RECOVER" basically means to sober up, and does not necessitate that they had ever been sober in the first place.

Sing
Daniel, it's the same problem again: you are incapable of distinguishing the eternal salvation given freely to sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and the temporal salvation experienced by such through believing the gospel truth.

There is NO need to go through the same thing again. I have no time for that.

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
If I'm unwelcome to give answers to questions you post, please just say so and I will not do so. If I am free to comment, please feel free not to respond to my comments. I also don't want to get into the same merry-go-round all over again.

Whilst there surely are different aspects of Salvation they need to be demonstrated contextually and exegetically from the text, not imposed on it. The Greek must also take precedence over the English in the KJV. Making points from the English word "RECOVER" should only be accepted if the Greek word possesses the same kind of assumption as the English, which, in this case, it does not.

Not having a capacity for a distinction and not being persuaded it by it are very different things. I'm very capable of distinguishing the concepts you propose, I just don't see any logical or exegetical necessity of doing so, as well as seeing a whole bunch of exegetical issues if we were to do so, which is why I asked you of the exegesis of certain texts which you haven't provided me with yet.

Exegetically, we have a decree unto salvation, we have the purchasing of the salvation (redemption), we have the timely application of the different aspects of the salvation that was (or would be in the case of OT saints) purchased (regeneration, illumination, justification, adoption, sanctification), culminating in the resurrection and our final glorification.

There is no reason to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is given and plenty that it is. Christ's righteousness was acquired FOR us, before we believed, but it was not given (imputed) TO us, before we received it by faith.

Ante Zivkovic
Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie, it's another pointless debate. Your Greek exegesis dismisses context. You don't know Greek, so don't lecture on how a word should be translated. Context is the church and Christians. Your exegesis is in contradiction to 1 Corinthians 1:18. Your assumption is that the Bible is not written only to the saved. You do not instruct those who think of the cross as foolishness.

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Ante Zivkovic, my knowledge of Greek or lack thereof is irrelevant to the truthfulness of my statement. Yes, the context is the church and false teachers within the church. They are not to be regarded as true possessors of faith.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

My exegesis is not in contradiction with 1 Cor 1:18. You do not understand neither Greek nor English tenses and how they are used. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. The participles in 1 Cor 1:18 are in the present tense, not the perfect tense. In Greek, the present tense, especially in the indicative mood denotes actions taking place or going on in the present time.

Sing
Daniel @ "Exegetically, we have a decree unto salvation, we have the purchasing of the salvation (redemption), we have the timely application of the different aspects of the salvation that was (or would be in the case of OT saints) purchased (regeneration, illumination, justification, adoption, sanctification), culminating in the resurrection and our final glorification.

There is no reason to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is given and plenty that it is. Christ's righteousness was acquired FOR us, before we believed, but it was not given (imputed) TO us, before we received it by faith.

=====================

There is enough agreement stated above:
You agree that there are indeed distinct aspects of salvation:
a. Eternal salvation DECREED for ALL the elect,
b. Eternal salvation ACCOMPLISHED for ALL the elect,
c. Eternal salvation APPLIED to EACH elect, who is in his native state of sin and condemnation and death, at God's own appointed and accepted time,
d. Eternal salvation EXPERIENCED by EACH elect who is called out by the gospel.
e. Eternal salvation CONSUMMATED for ALL the elect at glorification.

I will keep (c) and (d) distinct and separate, because even though eternal salvation is applied to each and every elect of God, yet NOT every one to whom it is applied FREELY will be brought to experience that salvation through a saving knowledge of that salvation by the gospel ministry.

Not every child conceived and born into this world grows up to have an experiential knowledge of their parental love.

You insist that (c) and (d) be fused together.

You entertain a fable that those who do NOT HAVE the righteousness of Jesus Christ (just what is the spiritual state of a man WITHOUT the righteousness of Jesus Christ, maybe, you may like to tell us!) are already regenerated, and are capable of spiritual activity like believing. Or you have a perverse IDEA that a regenerated man does not ALREADY have the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; or a perverse idea that a regenerated man is not yet SAVED by God but needs his act of believing in order to receive that salvation.

The solution to all your perverse fables is simply to recognise that though the eternal salvation is APPLIED freely, believing the truth of that salvation is needed to experience it; believing the truth of that salvation IS NOT to obtain that salvation, believing the truth of that salvation is not in order to have the righteousness of Christ imputed to you.

In other words, you entertain the stupid idea that EVERY CHILD born will also grow up to have a conscious knowledge and experience of parents' love.

The CRUX is stated here:

"There is no reason to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is given and plenty that it is."

No, you are INCAPABLE of reasoning. If you are, there is EVERY REASON, to keep the two distinct and separate. The Scriptures are full of concrete examples that the two are distinct.

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Yet, none of the examples of Scripture you give a remotely convincing to me, as are none of the answers you give to my objections.

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Sing @ "I will keep (c) and (d) distinct and separate, because even though eternal salvation is applied to each and every elect of God, yet NOT every one to whom it is applied FREELY will be brought to experience that salvation through a saving knowledge of that salvation by the gospel ministry. "

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Sing 
Do you even understand this Scripture?
Kindly peruse this article, "The Two Comings to Christ!"
Here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-two-comings-to-christ.html

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Sing, your traditions blind you to your eisegesis.

Sing
Daniel: So, why waste time here interacting with a man blinded by traditions?

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Why waste your time with me? I'm happy to comment even if you don't respond. If I'm unwelcome to comment, I will not.

Sing
Because you come to my page and shit here! Where is your manner, sir? You are shameless... I said that you are wasting time here, but you persist in hanging around and littering here.

Do you notice, I don't go to your page and litter around?

Where are your manners, sir?

Daniel-Kenneth Mackenzie
Sing. if that is what I did may the Lord deal severely with me. If you are the one judging falsely may the Lord grant you repentance leading to the truth.

Sing
May the Lord have mercy upon you and open your eyes.
So, begone now. And good-bye.

Those that Oppose Themselves

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid05zCpvGj9mbCF184rKYMFaor1w9ygDa7Ei4yKTu3hwsyGfv3vRmTYoJSQQNmQDDtZl

#ThosethatOpposeThemselves

2Timothy 2 KJT
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Why such an instruction to a servant of the Lord about those who oppose themselves - on the one hand, not to strive with those who oppose themselves but to be gentle to all, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing such children of God?

peradventure: an adverb, archaic: PERHAPS, POSSIBLY

If God peradventure will give them repentance...

To whom does the pronoun 'them' refer:
- careless and foolish children of God, or
- those that are still dead in trespasses and sin?

1. Who are those who oppose themselves?

2. How and in what ways do they oppose themselves?

3. Who are they that are taken captive by the devil at his will? When and how are they taken captive?

4. Who are they that may RECOVER themselves out of the snare of the devil?

5. How are they to recover themselves from the snare of the devil?

6. Are those still dead in trespasses and sins capable of being instructed concerning spiritual things?

7. What do you think of the idea of God giving repentance to them that are still dead in trespasses and sins?  What good will it do?

Please give some answers and the reasons for them. Thanks.

BE CAREFUL - God's own children may be foolishly OPPOSING THEMSELVES!

Take heed, don't end up opposing yourself! I heard mutters, "Nay, we are opposing the pastor, not ourselves!"

==========

Reggie
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (2 Timothy 2:19-21 KJV)

So, both honourable and dishonourable wessels... dwell in The House

(🤭ok, yeah, I’m making fun of Chinese people)

Sing
Weasels, wessels, whistles, vessels.

Does the fact that the Lord knoweth them that are His negate the truth that some of His children do foolishly oppose themselves?

Do some of God's children oppose themselves and dishonour themselves into spittle pots??

Reggie
Sing: yep

Sing
Reggie. yep to ? or to ?? or both above?

Reggie
Sing: I see… 1. Nope. 2. Yep.

Reggie
Sing, bro. If one is a true Primitive Baptist, they have to hold to the understanding that there are countless millions, if not billions of children who belong to God that have never even heard of Jesus or confessed faith in Him.

When the voice from Heaven spoke to Jesus concerning Glorification, the scriptures declare,

“…some said it thundered, some said an Angel spoke…”

Those who are Dull of hearing, having ears that have waxed gross (filled to the fullest) hear only a sound, while the others who have hunger hear a voice.

God speaks clearly from Heaven for all to hear. Well, if God wants certain people to hear Him, He will, peradventure… perhaps, open their ears.

Sing
True PBs are rare; half-baked ones are common!

Are you true to non-true PB?

Yes, there are God's children (regenerated elect) who do not have the ability to hear nor the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ... thus they are not converted.

Those who do have the ability and opportunity to hear, some are converted to various degrees; others are not.

Faith cometh by hearing... hearing by the word preached by God's messengers. Rom 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Reggie
Sing, I think I put two ideas together that shouldn’t have been.

That’s not how I meant for this to come across..

Any regenerate sinner that hears the gospel will believe…

But those who have been saved from the wrath to come in 70AD were the ones who kept hearing the gospel over and over in their hearing.

Reggie
Sing, the eternally saved who became dull of hearing were left behind and destroyed by the Roman Army…

Sing
Reggie @ Any regenerate sinner that hears the gospel will believe…
---------

Rom 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Reggie
Sing: so, real quick here. Those who were in Japan while the gospel was being preached, did anyone in Japan hear this?

Those is China, while Jesus was being crucified, did they ever hear the gospel?

Sing
Reggie @ so, real quick here. Those who were in Japan while the gospel was being preached, did anyone in Japan hear this?
---------

If the gospel was being preached in Japan, then some Japanese would have heard it.

@@ Those is China, while Jesus was being crucified, did they ever hear the gospel?

I don't understand the question. Explain. Thanks.

God effectually calls each elect out of his native state of sin and condemnation to that of grace and salvation - fitting him for eternal glory. All this is prior and independent of the gospel call to conversion for his temporal salvation. Do I make sense?

Sam
Sing, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth from all sin. There is no temporal salvation from His blood only eternal salvation in Christ

Sing
Sam, the eternal salvation enables one to work out his own temporal salvation.

Philippians 2:12 KJV — Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Timothy 4:16 KJV — Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Acts 2:40 KJV — And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Kindly explain these Scriptures.

Thank you.

Sam
Sing, it is your own salvation enabled by the Holy Spirit but nowhere do I read temporal about this salvation.

2 Corinthians 4:18 “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.”

Sing
Temporal in contrast to eternal; temporal as it relate to this temporal life only...
If you don't like the word temporal, it's fine.

==========

 

Power to become the sons of God

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid08RJXCQvfhxYu3nEjzTefge9wvjuvVBx6LsTP6Y1iLKARfYXCekimSrwJEfyzi6SUl

Consider this passage.

John 1 KJT
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

power - exousia : leave or permission, of authority (influence) and of right (privilege).

Q1: To whom did God give power to become the sons of God?
Q2: What does it mean to be given power to become sons (children) of God?
Q3. What are the THREE things stated?
Q4. What is the chronological order of the three things stated?

Do you care enough about the truth concerning your salvation to muse on the matter?

Do remember that these two:
- being given power to become sons of God (which is clearly conditional)
and,
- being born of God (which is clearly unconditional, the spiritually dead can't possibly meet any conditions)
ARE Distinct.

But so many equate the two; this prompted me to see if you have learnt the truths.
-------

Ann 
Pastor, what can you tell me of the meaning of “even” in v. 12?
There was a meaning for this word, common in scripture, that’s very different from how we use it, and I’m often a little confused

Sing
Ann, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Two notes:
1. "even" is in the italic, indicating that it's not in the Greek text but a word supplied by the translators, as needed in English grammar.
2. In English grammar, "even" indicates a comparison; or introduces a more specific or emphatic detail.

"Even" introduces a more specific or emphatic term or phrase to clarify or strengthen a previous phrase.

"to them that believe on his name" is a more specific phrase to explicate the earlier phrase "as many as received him."

I hope this helps.

Ann
In my personal understanding of the covenant that saved His elect, "receiving him" was an alternate way to express the experience of being born again. Many children of God are not aware or not yet aware that they have been redeemed and have a savior. So, if that's right, then believing on His name would ensue from receiving him or being born again, yet this verse seems to treat those two as different and believing being a stronger experience than merely receiving Him. That's what doesn't make sense to me. Your reiteration of the meaning of "even" is our familiar usage but it interrupts the flow of the idea in the passage, rather than facilitating it - at least for me. I remember having to go back and read bible verses many times when "even" was used this way, which is why I thought it used to have some other shade of meaning.

Dan
I often ask: “If we have no choice in our birth (wherein we become sons of God), in what sense might someone choose to exercise power to BECOME a son of God?” The answer lies in “becoming a son INDEED” - literally “in deed” - in acting in accordance with the father’s will for our lives. A father whose son gets in terrible trouble by breaking the law might well say, “That’s no son of mine!” In so doing he is not denying the son’s natural, genetic lineage, but rather pointing out that the child has not acted in accordance with his upbringing and as such has not produced the evidence of his parentage by his deeds. The matter of having the power to become sons of God has respect to the visible fruit of our deeds as borne out in obedience to the father’s teaching.

Rod
🙂 Amen. To John 1:12-13.
Regarding "The question is not, what does it say; the more important question is, Do you believe what it says?" perhaps understanding comes before believing? If so, then the order would be:
* What does it say?
* What does it mean?
* Do you believe?

Acts 8:30-31 (KJV) - "And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him."

Acts 8:35,37,39 (KJV) - "Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. ... And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. ... And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing."

Amen.

Sing
Rod, thank you. What is the distinction between "what does it say" and "what does it mean"?

Is the former interpretation and the latter application?

Rod
🙂 In the example provided, the Ethiopian could read what was written in the Book of Isaiah, but he could not understand it. He needed someone to "guide" or explain it to him. Philip preached to him, then the eunuch "went on his way rejoicing."

The first is the ability to read. The second is to interpret and understand what has been read. The third is to believe what has been read.

I hope this helps, brother Sing.

If I sent you a letter in some foreign language, you know the alphabet, so you can read it, but without understanding. You need to translate it into a language that you understand. Then you are able to decide if you believe what was written, or not.

Sing
Rod, thanks. I need to translate it into a language I can read. but reading and understanding are two different matters; many can read eloquently without understanding what is read. So also with understanding and believing, even though understanding is necessary for believing. For example, I understand what an Arminian says - for example, a man believes in order to get life - but I refuse to believe the irrational idea.

If I know what it says, then I know what it means. Knowing what it means, I make a conscious choice to believe it or reject it.

That's the way I see the matter.

To whom did God give the power to become the sons of God?

 https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02rP3n6Qey9gPK4zeuv3YBumi4KEjFFb7jQQsa58PBh9Bu6mn7apPk6qrnnKNWVpS2l

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

power - exousia: leave or permission, authority and of right (privilege).

Q1. To whom did God give the power to become the sons of God?
- "to as many as received him (Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God."
- receiving Christ is further explained as "... even to them that BELIEVE on his name.
- To believe on His name, Jesus Christ, is to believe the truths indicated by the name.
- Mat 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
- John 6:69 "And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."  Christ (Χριστός) means the Anointed One, the promised Messiah.
- "as many as received him" excludes those effectually called who are without ability or opportunity to receive Christ Jesus.

To be given the power to become sons of God is clearly conditional upon their receiving Christ, believing on His name.

Q2. What does it mean to be given power to become sons (children) of God?
- It means to be given leave or permission, the authority (power) and right (privilege) to claim sonship of God.
- To as many as believe in Jesus Christ, they are given the authority and right to own God as their Father; as many as received Jesus Christ manifest that they HAVE BEEN BORN of God; they are God's children. Spiritual life precedes the activities of that life.

Q3. What are the THREE things stated?
The three things stated are indicated by these three verbs:
- "as many as BELIEVED... BELIEVE on his name"
- "to them GAVE he (God) power..."
- "which were BORN..."  (this is regeneration at the effectual calling.

In the effectual calling of an elect out of his native state of sin and death unto the state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, these three divine activities take place: justification by God, regeneration by the Spirit, and adoption by the Father with the giving of the Spirit of adoption to dwell within him; all these are solely based on the redemptive work of Christ.

ONLY those ALREADY effectually called to grace and salvation in Jesus Christ are capable of receiving Him.

Q4. What is the chronological order of the three things?
a. "which were BORN..."
- Spiritual birth by the Spirit of God comes first. John 3:3, Eph 2:1

b. "as many as BELIEVED..."
- Those born of God are indwelt by the Spirit of adoption, who works in them all the saving graces, including faith.
- The grace of faith worked in the children of God makes believing possible.

c. "to them GAVE he (God) power..."
- This is in consequence of believing on the name of Christ.
- Believing the gospel truths of Jesus Christ, the children of God are blessed by God to EXPERIENCE their sonship of God.

—————-

Q. Why is it lacking common sense (i.e stupid)  to equate "to them gave he power..." as regeneration, i.e., "born of God"?
- Give a few obvious reasons.

Yet, not a few sincere believers, including some reformed folks, equate the two.
- How does equating the two REPUDIATE salvation by grace alone?

As many as - i,e, not one more and not one less

'As many as...' (2)

Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Christ Jesus gives eternal life.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they s
hall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Christ gives eternal life to as many as the Father has given to Him, not one more and not one less. Christ knows the Father's will. he came to save His people... those whom the Father has given to Him are His, no more and no less. He knows each one of them by name... their names have been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10: 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Be wise... and don't contradict Christ's words. He died for as many as the Father has given to Him; and as many as he died for, he gives them eternal life at God's approved and appointed time. He did His Father's will, and not the will of some opinionated preachers.

Christ was given power over ALL flesh... but STILL He gives eternal life to ONLY as many as the Father has given to Him.

So many would scream and rant that Christ is not very loving for not giving eternal life to ALL flesh.

I suggest that if Christ had given eternal life to just one condemned sinner, He would have been very loving already!
=======

Charles Page

I believe that the number that Christ gives eternal life to FAR exceeds the number of people who would exercise free will if it were given to them. Naturally, though, the unregenerate don't have free will. God's grace is exceedingly great and gracious beyond human comprehension.

2/3 of humanity would far exceed the number the Arminians believe will be saved, like the 20% or less Pinoy B., this is merely speculation, but the thoughts of a great number thrill my soul. The thought of a multitude so vast no human could number them, and everyone has a glorified body with mouth, hands and feet to praise God in glorious jubilation! makes me want to shout, dance a jig and throw my hands up high to God's glory!

Sing F Lau
I would leave numbers and figures like that to the divine Accountant!