2Timothy 2
24 And the servant
of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness
instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them
repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may
recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him
at his will.
If God peradventure
will give them repentance...
To whom does the pronoun
'them' refer:
- careless and
foolish children of God, or
- those that are
still dead in trespasses and sin?
(peradventure: an
adverb, archaic: PERHAPS, POSSIBLY)
1. Who are those who
oppose themselves?
2. In what ways do
they oppose themselves?
3. Who are they that
are taken captive by the devil at his will?
4. Who are they that
may RECOVER themselves out of the snare of the devil?
5. How are they to
recover themselves from the snare of the devil?
6. Are those still
dead in trespasses and sins capable of being instructed concerning spiritual
things?
7. What do you think
of the idea of God giving repentance to them that are still dead in trespasses
and sins? What good will it do?
Please give some
answers and the reasons for them. Thanks.
BE CAREFUL - God's
own children may be foolishly OPPOSING THEMSELVES!
Please give some
answers and the reasons for them. Thanks.
--------
Troy Thomas
“For godly sorrow
worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the
world worketh death.” 2 Corinthians 7:10
I cannot manufacture godly sorrow, but I can pray that God would grant me godly sorrow. However, this may bring on tribulation. I must learn to be comforted by HIS rod and staff.
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
The verb translated
"oppose" is a present participle in the middle voice which can have a
reflexive sense in Greek, but used reflexively the subject may be understood to
be acting on or for himself, and the latter seems to be a much more reasonable
translation. It's in the accusative, answering the question of whom is to be
instructed. Those who are opposing (the truth) are to be instructed.
YLT: in meekness
instructing those opposing
What they are
opposing is the correct handling of the Word of truth. We can gently instruct,
but it is God who must give repentance. Our instruction is just the means by
which he grants it. The people he is referring to are people ensnared by the
Devil, doing his will and lacking a knowledge of the truth.
2Th_2:13 But we are
bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Since salvation is
through the belief of the truth as in 2 Th 2:13. it would seem that the people
referred to in Timothy do not possess this faith, although they may have
professed it at some earlier point.
The word translated
"RECOVER" basically means to sober up, and does not necessitate that
they had ever been sober in the first place.
Sing
Daniel, it's the same problem again:
you are incapable of distinguishing the eternal salvation given freely to
sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and the temporal salvation experienced by such
through believing the gospel truth.
There is NO need to go through the same thing again. I have no time for that.
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
If I'm unwelcome to
give answers to questions you post, please just say so and I will not do so. If
I am free to comment, please feel free not to respond to my comments. I also
don't want to get into the same merry-go-round all over again.
Whilst there surely
are different aspects of Salvation they need to be demonstrated contextually
and exegetically from the text, not imposed on it. The Greek must also take
precedence over the English in the KJV. Making points from the English word
"RECOVER" should only be accepted if the Greek word possesses the
same kind of assumption as the English, which, in this case, it does not.
Not having a
capacity for a distinction and not being persuaded it by it are very different
things. I'm very capable of distinguishing the concepts you propose, I just
don't see any logical or exegetical necessity of doing so, as well as seeing a
whole bunch of exegetical issues if we were to do so, which is why I asked you
of the exegesis of certain texts which you haven't provided me with yet.
Exegetically, we have
a decree unto salvation, we have the purchasing of the salvation (redemption),
we have the timely application of the different aspects of the salvation that
was (or would be in the case of OT saints) purchased (regeneration,
illumination, justification, adoption, sanctification), culminating in the
resurrection and our final glorification.
There is no reason to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is given and plenty that it is. Christ's righteousness was acquired FOR us, before we believed, but it was not given (imputed) TO us, before we received it by faith.
Ante Zivkovic
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie, it's another pointless debate. Your Greek exegesis dismisses context. You
don't know Greek, so don't lecture on how a word should be translated. Context is the church and Christians. Your exegesis is in contradiction to 1 Corinthians 1:18. Your
assumption is that the Bible is not written only to the saved. You do not
instruct those who think of the cross as foolishness.
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Ante Zivkovic, my
knowledge of Greek or lack thereof is irrelevant to the truthfulness of my
statement. Yes, the context is the church and false teachers within the church.
They are not to be regarded as true possessors of faith.
Mat 7:21 Not every
one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but
he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
My exegesis is not in contradiction with 1 Cor 1:18. You do not understand neither Greek nor English tenses and how they are used. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action. The participles in 1 Cor 1:18 are in the present tense, not the perfect tense. In Greek, the present tense, especially in the indicative mood denotes actions taking place or going on in the present time.
Sing
Daniel @ "Exegetically, we have a decree unto salvation, we have the purchasing of the salvation
(redemption), we have the timely application of the different aspects of the
salvation that was (or would be in the case of OT saints) purchased
(regeneration, illumination, justification, adoption, sanctification),
culminating in the resurrection and our final glorification.
There is no reason
to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is given and
plenty that it is. Christ's righteousness was acquired FOR us, before we
believed, but it was not given (imputed) TO us, before we received it by faith.
=====================
There is enough
agreement stated above:
You agree that there
are indeed distinct aspects of salvation:
a. Eternal salvation
DECREED for ALL the elect,
b. Eternal salvation
ACCOMPLISHED for ALL the elect,
c. Eternal salvation
APPLIED to EACH elect, who is in his native state of sin and condemnation and
death, at God's own appointed and accepted time,
d. Eternal salvation
EXPERIENCED by EACH elect who is called out by the gospel.
e. Eternal salvation
CONSUMMATED for ALL the elect at glorification.
I will keep (c) and
(d) distinct and separate, because even though eternal salvation is applied to
each and every elect of God, yet NOT every one to whom it is applied FREELY will
be brought to experience that salvation through a saving knowledge of that salvation
by the gospel ministry.
Not every child
conceived and born into this world grows up to have an experiential knowledge of
their parental love.
You insist that (c)
and (d) be fused together.
You entertain a
fable that those who do NOT HAVE the righteousness of Jesus Christ (just what
is the spiritual state of a man WITHOUT the righteousness of Jesus Christ,
maybe, you may like to tell us!) are already regenerated, and are capable of
spiritual activity like believing. Or you have a perverse IDEA that a regenerated
man does not ALREADY have the righteousness of Christ imputed to him; or a
perverse idea that a regenerated man is not yet SAVED by God but needs his act
of believing in order to receive that salvation.
The solution to all
your perverse fables is simply to recognise that though the eternal salvation
is APPLIED freely, believing the truth of that salvation is needed to
experience it; believing the truth of that salvation IS NOT to obtain that
salvation, believing the truth of that salvation is not in order to have the
righteousness of Christ imputed to you.
In other words, you
entertain the stupid idea that EVERY CHILD born will also grow up to have a
conscious knowledge and experience of parents' love.
The CRUX is stated
here:
"There is no
reason to think that what is given is not experienced at the same time it is
given and plenty that it is."
No, you are INCAPABLE of reasoning. If you are, there is EVERY REASON, to keep the two distinct and separate. The Scriptures are full of concrete examples that the two are distinct.
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Yet, none of the
examples of Scripture you give a remotely convincing to me, as are none of the
answers you give to my objections.
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Sing @ "I will keep
(c) and (d) distinct and separate, because even though eternal salvation is
applied to each and every elect of God, yet NOT every one to whom it is applied
FREELY will be brought to experience that salvation through a saving knowledge
of that salvation by the gospel ministry. "
Joh 6:37 All that
the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no
wise cast out.
Sing
Do you even understand this Scripture?
Kindly peruse this article, "The Two Comings to Christ!"
Here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-two-comings-to-christ.html
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Sing, your traditions blind you to your eisegesis.
Sing
Daniel: So, why waste time
here interacting with a man blinded by traditions?
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Why waste your time
with me? I'm happy to comment even if you don't respond. If I'm unwelcome to
comment, I will not.
Sing
Because you come to
my page and shit here! Where is your manner, sir? You are shameless... I said
that you are wasting time here, but you persist in hanging around and littering here.
Do you notice, I
don't go to your page and litter around?
Where are your manners, sir?
Daniel-Kenneth
Mackenzie
Sing. if that
is what I did may the Lord deal severely with me. If you are the one judging
falsely may the Lord grant you repentance leading to the truth.
Sing
May the Lord have
mercy upon you and open your eyes.
So, begone now. And
good-bye.
