a well-meaning but disappointed God;
a popular error, rightly pointed out
by Mr Pink in the meme.
The implication of such a fable
is the height of blasphemy, as Pink indicated.
Initially post here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid02soc9i3CUm6Z3xeg5EqH7cmjnLZNBBhNGyuF4RkDQ9ozyADFVG5Vt8ZBY1koUJ28yl
-------------
(A note on Mr Peter Missing's numerous comments: He deleted them all; perhaps he realised his error from hindsight.)
He basically fails to make the distinction between what a man is in his native state of sin and death and what the same man can do after the divine grace has worked in him, freely and sovereignly by God.
The former is completely incapable of any spiritual activities, being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. Until and unless the grace of God intervenes, he lies in an active enmity against God, unable to do anything to bring himself to God. "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." is a statement with no exception. This involved his sonship; he is completely passive in his new birth by God.
The latter has been born of God, and as a child of God and with the Spirit of adoption dwelling in him, he is commanded to know and obey the will of the Father for him. This is discipleship, and he is actively involved in working out his own salvation. Much of his points are in this realm.
Mr. Missing, failing to distinguish the vast difference between the two, is opposing a strawman of his own imagination.
============
Ernesto Cuevas
That is why I am a
Christian Universalist.
[Ernesto completely misread Pink; Pink points out that the god of the universalists is well-meaning but impotent to accomplish his purpose. sing]
Sing
What is that?
Elaborate a bit.
Ernesto Cuevas
I believe God loves
everyone and that he will save everyone in Christ. Some will have to go through
the second death, but the elect will be saved first, and after them the whole
world. since in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive. He is the
saviour of all men, especially them who believe
Ernesto Cuevas
Go there still is
judgment in the Lake of Fire, but it's just not forever. I can tell by your
profile picture that you love speaking of death
Sing
You are in plain
error.
Rev 20:
13 And the sea gave
up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and
hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was
not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
All in Adam = all
represented by Adam.
All in Christ = all
represented by Christ.
You are ignorant of
the Scriptures, leading you to bear false witness concerning God in His work of
redemption.
Your idea of second
death is a fable; second death is the lake of fire, and there is no exit, it is
the eternal abode of those not redeemed by Christ.
Ernesto Cuevas
And you're confused
about what Mr. Pink is even saying. There will be a time when there will be no
more death. Leaving the second death will discontinue. In Adam all die; in Christ
all will be made alive literally and you don't believe Jesus is the saviour of
the world
Ernesto Cuevas
God was in Christ
reconciling the world to himself. There is no such thing as unredeemed. Show me
one verse
Sing
Your mind is made
up, so I don't wish to waste more time.
You probably believe those whose names were not written in the book of life were ALSO redeemed but end up in the lake of fire anyway. Thanks for your smart idea.
Michael A Hamilton
Sing, I’m hoping
that you’re not taking the quote above from AW Pink out of context. If you read
his stuff, he does not believe what is quoted above. He is just stating that some people believe the above statement.
Sing
Lol.... Like what Mr
Trump said what Mr Putin said what he believed about the Russians meddling in
the US election!
Pink stated a popular error, i.e. pointing out the erroneous but popular notion among many Christians.
Sing
You disagree with
Pink but agree with the sincere folks whose pathetic view of God; i.e. God is well-intentioned but impotent - that Pink is pointing out to us?
(Mr Peter Missing has deleted all the comments he had made)
Sing
Sir, I fear that Mr
Missing is missing what Mr Pink is saying.
It is still possible
that I'm the one missing Pink's point, since your English is far superior to
mine.
Sing
Peter, You are MISSING the
point, I fear.
Mr Pink is
describing the belief system that is popular with many believers.
Have you read Pink's "The Sovereignty of God"? I have read only a few books, and that happens to be one.
Sing
Just one time will
do if the mind is not distracted or prejudiced by some other issues.
No, the election is
not the escape clause; it is the foundational clause from which the Triune God
directs their activities to the eternal salvation of those elected.
Your departure point
of "God wishes all to be saved" sure sounds sentimental, even though it is contrary
to many biblical statements.
Christ came to save
His people from their sins. God gave His Son to save them from their sins.
Christ came to do His Father's will, to save those whom the Father has given to
Him, etc.
What is sentimental
is not necessarily biblical.
Steve Woods
Peter is missing the
point. Whose will? Whose free will? These are not my words, but the words of
the Master, our Dear Saviour: John 5:21 "For as the Father raiseth up the dead,
and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."
Nathan Ridgeway
Each of you should
read carefully Pink's writing here carefully before commenting. The way his statement is
constructed can be confusing if one does not read slowly and carefully. I
believe Brother Sing has made his point. And I am in no way Universalist.
Steve Woods
Job 23:13 Psalm
115:3 Daniel 4:35
These prove absolutely that God does whatever his soul
desireth. He always has, he always will. Therefore, if it is God's desire to
save all, then all will certainly be saved. However, as Sing pointed out
scripturally, those who are not save, those who are not among the elect, those
who are not given to the Son by the Father (repeated he says "All that the
Father giveth me") will burn everlastingly in hell. Therefore, since he
did not save all of Adam's race, it was not his desire, never his desire to
save all of Adam's posterity but rather he saved all that the Father gave him
in the eternal covenant of grace. The Bible could not be more plain on this
matter.
Steve Woods
The context of Romans
9 (of which I made no allusion nor mention) is the sovereignty of God. It shows
the wisdom of God to all who might reply as you do to Romans 8. All that are
loved of and by God will never be separated from his love. He made provisions
for all those he loved, even you and your interest in the Scripture proves your
election of grace. No person has ever been interested in the things of the
Spirit of God but what they were first born of the Spirit of God (See 1 Cor
2:14).
You judge God, and this is in error for Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are
not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD....
You can
trust him, Peter, because he loves you and his love is unchanging, eternal; he
never started loving you. Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me,
saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with
lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Now, for your last statement ".... in
arguing that God does as he wills,...."
My argument is not based on a whim
nor does it imply God acts on a whim. He never has and he never will (Known
unto God are all his works from the foundation of the world). On the
contrary, if you love Jesus, and I know you do, then you should take him at His
word. Notice what he says about this matter and I will leave it to you to
believe him or not to believe him: John 6:37-39 "All that the Father giveth me
shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I
came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent
me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath
given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
Dellis Worsham Sr.
I saw the point
being that if God had purposed the whole world to be saved and yet the majority
of that world remained in a lost and dead state, than the task which each of
the trinity determined to do is not being accomplished.
Bro. Sing, please
correct me if I'm wrong.
Sing
Yes, that's the
popular fable that Pink is pointing out, then stating the harsh reality, and he
spells out the inevitable implications of such an idea; God is well-intentioned
but a miserable failure.
Sing
What Pink said makes
plain sense to me. God accomplishes to the uttermost what He purposed before
the foundation of the world.
Dellis Worsham Sr.
Amen
Sing
Isaiah 55:9 KJV —
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your
ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God elected a
certain people, Christ secured their salvation, the Spirit applies the salvation to each
one personally, everyone God purposed to save shall be saved to the uttermost.
I rejoice in that certainty of God's wisdom and sovereignty.
God's love accomplishes everything it sets out to accomplish despite unbelief and scruples, rejection
and opposition.
Philip Blankenship
Peter Missing, the
whole idea that you have a desire is evidence that you are an elect. By nature, none
could choose him or desire to follow him.
Sing
Peter, why speak of
the covenant-keeping God and deny the plain and explicit truth that at the
centre of that covenant is election?
Why is the fact of the election so offensive to you? Probably, you have not understood it correctly.
Proof of it, you use the example of your wife making you to love her. What a
total misunderstanding of God's acts of saving us while dead in trespasses and
sins, giving us a new nature, thus making it possible for us to love him.
I just started
preaching through the first epistle of Peter a few weeks ago.
1 Peter 1:2 KJV —
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification
of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Why deny such a
plain truth so central to the true grace of God?
1 Peter 5:12 KJV —
By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly,
exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
I will hold my peace.
Steve Woods
Peter Missing, absolutely not. Sing, Philip and I do not believe in the predestination of what
we do; we believe God predestinated people, not actions or things. He clearly
commands us to do or not to do certain things and leaves us free to do, but
notice that we were all dead in trespasses and sins. Dead men cannot choose
life. He quickens us into divine life by his mercy.
Titus 3:1-7 Put them in mind
to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to
every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle,
shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes
foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in
malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness
and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness
which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of
regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly
through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should
be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Then, after that, we can do
righteous things, just as you do now.
1 John 3:7 ...whosoever doeth
righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Philippians 2:13-15 For it
is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all
things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and
harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and
perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world..."
Steve Woods
Sing: Mark
13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be
saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the
days. Jesus believed the elect to be more than himself
Steve Woods
Peter Missing, you
post things like "That drives our highs, lows, ups, downs - but if God is
our reward (Gen 15:1), we'll be fulfilled, yet never owned." This shows you do not read the Scriptures or know the power (authority and ability) of
God. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in
you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a
price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
I hope you will begin today to empty yourself of the vain deceit and philosophy
of your false teachers and learn the plain declarations of Holy Scripture, quit
believing men and believe God. I have not asked you to believe me, I have shown
you scripture after scripture, plain scripture, and you choose to believe
otherwise.
You say it is all about Jesus and I agree, it is all about his will. Now listen to the tense of this scripture Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he
hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. When did that happen? To whom
did Christ make this offering? Was this offering received? For whom was it
made? If God received this offering (The resurrection proves he did) then on
behalf of whom was it received? It was received on behalf of all for whom
Christ died, for his blood sanctified them all. If it were for all men, then God
has no right whatsoever to make any man suffer eternally for sin that Christ
atoned.
Steve Woods
Peter Missing: We are
seeing you speak in generalities only, as you see Christ generally saved
everyone, but particularly no one. What you say above, if true, (read what you
said) just condemned all of humanity outside of Jewry before the cross to
everlasting destruction. Your system, that Jesus died for all mankind or all
humanity, affirms that those not in the family of Jacob/Israel were all
condemned despite Jesus dying for them because they did not perform the
requirements that your system places on mankind to be saved.
J.E. Griffis
Peter Missing: God's love is the cause of my love and your love for him. Jn 4:19
Lindsey Ward
Good post and
following arguments, Sing.
Mary Gassaway
O'Gwynn
WOW!!!
Steve Woods
John 17:1-4 These
words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour
is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast
given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as
thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on
the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Steve Woods
Jesus defined in no
uncertain terms what it was the Father's will for him to do. Either he did it or
he did not. He defined that in John 6 cited above, he declared in John 17 that
he finished the work, and we, by our statements, affirm that we believe him or we
affirm we do not believe him. I affirm that I believe not just "in
him" but I BELIEVE HIM. He said it was his Father's will for him to save
(equal sign, " as many as" is the definition of an equal sign) as
many as the Father gave him, not one more human being, not one less human
being.
These are his words, not mine. Jesus affirmed in John 17 that he
finished his work. Paul says the same to Timothy: 2 Timothy 1:8-11 Be not thou
therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be
thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our
works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ
Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our
Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher,
and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
The angel affirmed the same to
Joseph:
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his
name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Here, the angel
declares the purpose for the advent of Christ, that he would save His
people, not all people, from their sins, not all sins. His death on the cross
was effective; by his blood, he reconciled us to God, by his death Romans 5:8-11
Steve Woods
I notice you use no
scripture to justify your philosophy, but you ask this question, so I will answer
it: But how do you leap from that to the notion that God prescribed how many
would be saved? He expressly states his Father's will to be "as many as
the Father giveth me". I quoted you scripture after scripture yet you
answer with philosophy and judging God.
Jesus gives cause and effect, will you
listen? Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep. You deny the existence
of an election when it is plainly taught throughout scripture.
Psa 65:4 plainly
states "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to
approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with
the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."
So, will Scripture be your
guide or vain deceit and philosophy and judging God your Maker?
Steve Woods
CHOSEN AND
PREDESTINATED
February 6, 1930
We are well aware of
the fact that the doctrine of God's choice and predestination is often called
in question and denied by many, especially by the religious world. Although
this is true, yet there is nothing more plainly taught in the Bible; and when
properly understood, there is no truth taught therein that is more consoling and
encouraging to the Lord's humble poor. We will try to write a few thoughts
concerning this precious truth for the benefit of our readers. We wish, first,
to emphasise the fact that God's choice and predestination do not harm or
injure anyone, and never have done so.
If A is a millionaire, and makes choice
of B and predestinates to make him heir to his estate, he does not thereby
injure C. A's choice and predestination do not do C any harm, although C is
not embraced in the choice and predestination of A. If A was under any
obligation to B, then it was not a matter of mercy or grace that he was made
heir to A's estate, but a matter of debt or obligation.
Some people have
charged that the Old Baptists believe that God made some people to save them
and others to damn them. This charge is untrue. That is not Old Baptist
doctrine or teaching, neither is it Bible teaching. God did not make people to
save them or to damn them. Let the Bible answer the question as to what He made
them for. "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on
all the face of the earth." Ac 17:26. This tells us plainly that God made
all nations of men for to dwell on the face of the earth. That is what He made
them for. Let us accept it for just what it says, and take it at its full
value. If any are lost, it is not because God made them to be lost, but it is on
account of sin -the transgression of God's law. Man did transgress God's law. It
is not necessary to cite the Scriptures to prove this, as all professed Bible
believers will accept that truth, so far as we know. Paul tells us that
"we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under
sin."-Ro 3:9.
This shows that all are under sin, both Jews and Gentiles,
and Paul says he proved this before. To deny it is no better than infidelity,
for it is to deny the plain statement of God's word. Then, as all are under
sin, it follows that all are in a lost state or condition, and will remain so,
without the intervention of a higher power. Now, seeing that all are, without
the intervention of mercy, or a higher power, forever lost, and the Bible plainly
teaching that some are saved, let us look into the matter and find whether the
Lord has made choice of them or not. First, we ask what the word choice means?
And what does the word chosen mean? Choice is the act of choosing; the
voluntary act of selecting from two or more things that which is preferred; the
determination of the mind in preferring one thing to another; election;
selection. Chosen means selected from a number; picked out; in theology, elect.
Chosen people, the Israeli ties; see 1Ch 16:13 "O ye seed of Israel His
servant, ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones;" Ps 33:12 "Blessed is
the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom He hath chosen for His
own inheritance." See also Ac 13:17. Chosen, as a noun, is one who is the
object of choice or divine favor; an elect person. To know whether any persons
are the objects of choice or divine favor, and are elect persons, and whether
they were predestinated unto a better state, let us read Eph 1:3-4,5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed
us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as He
hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be
holy and without blame before Him in love: having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure
of His will," etc. The word us in this text is a personal pronoun, and as
a pronoun must have an antecedent, it follows that persons (understood) is the
antecedent of this pronoun. Hence, it must necessarily be true that persons
(us) were the objects of God's choice. He chose persons- persons were chosen by
Him. No man on earth can deny this without denying the plain statement of the
Word of God. Not only is it true that God made choice of persons, but He also
predestinated those same persons unto the adoption of children; He
predestinated that they should be adopted into His heavenly family. To
predestinate is to appoint or ordain beforehand by divine purpose or decree; to
preelect. These people were appointed beforehand to be adopted into the family
of God. God predestinated that this should be done. He predestinated that they
should be saved. He appointed them beforehand unto salvation. If you are ever
saved, or brought into the family of God, or made a child of God, it is because
God appointed beforehand, by His divine purpose, that you should be saved; that
you should be brought into and made a member of His heavenly family. "In
whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the
purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."-
Eph 1:11. If one obtains an inheritance in Christ it is because he was
predestinated unto that end by the Lord Himself, and according to His own
purpose; and He works all things necessary to the accomplishment of that end.
Nothing in order to the accomplishment of that end is left to rest upon any
condition to be performed by others-it is not contingent upon the works of men.
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might
be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them
He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He
justified, them He also glorified."- Ro 8:28-29,30. Here we are plainly
told that some persons were predestinated to be conformed to the image of His
Son. God the Father predestinated this. Who can object to being predestinated
to be conformed to the image of Christ? If you are ever conformed to the image
of Christ it is because the Father predestinated that you should be conformed
to His image. Can one object to that? "Blessed is the man whom thou
choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy
temple."-Ps 65:4. Who approaches unto the Lord? According to David's
language here, it is the man the Lord chooses and causes to approach unto Him.
No person has ever yet approached unto the Lord, only that person whom the Lord
has chosen and caused to approach unto Him. For one to object to the doctrine
of God's choice is for him to object to the very principle upon which a poor
sinner may approach unto the Lord. Can you afford to object to a poor sinner
approaching unto the Lord? If you cannot afford to object to that, then you
cannot afford to object to the principle upon which he may approach unto Him.
If you have ever been brought to realize your need of God's mercy and grace in
your salvation, and caused to approach unto Him in humble prayer and
supplication, begging Him for mercy, it was because God had made choice of you
and caused you to approach unto Him; and that is the reason why you will be
given to finally dwell in His courts. You will finally be brought into His
glorious and holy presence in the heavenly world, and there be perfectly and
fully satisfied. You will then be finally and fully glorified, and will dwell
in His glorious presence forever. May this be your happy lot, if according to
His heavenly will, is our humble prayer. C. H. Cayce.
Steve Woods
Peter Missing: No,
you don't. You present a completely contradictory will and no supporting
scripture. Jesus, and I quoted this, plainly stated his Father's will was to
raise up at the last day all the Father gave (all the Father chose and gave to
Christ when he asked, Psa 2:8).
I showed you Mark 13:20, where Jesus defines the
elect as those who were chosen, yet you deny Jesus' plainest of all statements.
You continue with philosophy and human reasoning in flat rejection of the Word
of God. You claim God's sovereign love and choice is unjust, and in so doing you
declare God unjust; you have judged God by your philosophy. You claim Romans 8
is a generalisation when it is plain to any reasonable person selective and
personal. I have a personal God, he foreknew me, he predestinated me, he called
me (Col 1:13) he called me with a holy calling, an individual calling, he
called me out of a state of being dead in sins into a life, an eternal life, of
righteousness in him. He justified me. He glorified me. Now, I was not the only
one so when Paul writes of this he says "whom", those are particular
person, whom he did foreknow he also predestinated. Same persons. And whom he
predestinated, THEM he also called, same persons, and whom he called, THEM he
also justified and whom he justified, THEM, same them in every case, he also
glorified. This language is to clear to be misunderstood, it must either be
believed or rejected. Please pray and ask God to guide you in all truth and use
his Holy Word, the Bible. The Bible is plain if you just let God and not men guide
you. Clearly, you will not consider what I have said or the Scriptures I have
provided so I will see you in Heaven someday and we will both know the truth.
God bless!
Sing
Peter @ "That's like saying "I love my wife because made me do it". That's also like saying 'the devil made me do it'. So does God make you get up and pray, does he drive you to church, does she make you read your bible, does he make you believe, does he make you, oblige you to do the right thing? How empty that argument. How circuitous. You'd better be prepared to follow the lie all the way around, because science demands that for a law or principle to hold, it must hold for all observations, which yours doesn't, not by a long, long, long way."
==========
Peter, your words just show you
have a perverted understanding of the saving works of God that enable the
saved to respond to him. It is no virtue to burn a straw man which you have
imagined in your own mind. I'm flabbergasted by the childish challenge.
Maybe, asking some
questions will help you better, instead of banging your head against the wall.
Ernesto Cuevas
Sing, I've been
reading your comments, and I think you just like to argue, so I'm going to opt
out
Sing
Ernesto, when you
are shown to be contrary to plain Scriptures, you change the subject! You make
unbiblical statements, and you expect me to leave you in your error? That's a
dereliction of duty on my part.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any
of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know,
that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul
from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Sing
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his
manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of
the scriptures, 3 Opening and
alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead;
and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
Sing
Peter @
"Because it isn't so. You confuse "God predestined us in him" as being about us, not him. As I said before, detracting from Jesus and the error
reveals itself."
=======
How is Jesus detracted from what? Doctrine of election?
How could Jesus be
detracted from any doctrine of salvation?
All the saving
activities of the Triune God flow out of that fountain head, His electing love
for His elect?
Why is His act of
election so hateful to you?
Show us. I will listen.
Sing
Peter @ "That's like saying
"I love my wife because made me do it". That's also like saying
"the devil made me do it". So does God make you get up and pray, does
he drive you to church, doe she make you read your bible, does he make you
believe, does he make you, oblige you to do the right thing? How empty that
argument. How circuitous. You better be prepared to follow the lie all the way
around, because science demands that for a law or principle to hold it must
hold for all observations, which yours doesn't, not by a long, long, long way."
=============
I'm really saddened by
this illustration and the grotesque and rhetorical questions that follow. This
is a classic caricature of the truth into fatalism.
In the sentence
"I love my wife because made me do it", there may be a missing noun or
pronoun. "I love my wife because [God? she?] made me do it"?
Let us apply the
illustration to the sphere of salvation by grace.
What is the
spiritual state of sinners before free and sovereign grace intervenes?
- What saith the
Scriptures? Dead in trespasses and sins, in enmity against God, in rebellion,
none seekest after God, no fear of God, etc.
- in this native
state, i.e. conceived in sin, born in sin, walk in sin...
- they have
freewill, yes they have freewill, they freely live in sins, they freely rebel
against God. [God's moral government over His moral creatures collapses when
freewill is denied, plain and simple. This is a separate issue.]
- until the free and
sovereign grace of God intervenes, the sinners have no hope, and without God in
the world.
- in your illustration, the woman who is now your wife was an odious harlot, or a newborn heathen girl left
to perish.
Eze 16:6 "And
when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto
thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in
thy blood, Live."
To whom is that the
free and sovereign grace shown?
- Those whom God
purposed to save from before the foundation of the world.
- Those whom God
gave to His Son Jesus Christ to save, and for whom Chirist secured their eternal
redemption.
- The Spirit of God
and Christ applies the redemption purposed and accomplished to each individual
elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.
- Except a man is
born again, he CANNOT. Grace turns a rebel into a child of God. As a child of
God, he is able to do that which the Father commands. The Spirit of God works in
him to will and to do the Father's will.
The commands to
perform any spiritual activities are directed at those whom God has imparted
spiritual life.
God's children love God because they have first been loved.... that love is traced ALL THE WAY BACK TO GOD'S ELECTING LOVE FOR THEM.
Sing
Peter @ "The
presupposition that we are unable to choose our response to God....."
"Except a man
be born again, he CANNOT...."
No, God doesn't
choose the response of sinners dead in trespasses and sins. He chose to SAVE
them first, to quicken them from spiritual deadness to life. He saved them
first, then He commands His children to respond to do His will.
There is
nonrefundable to caricature a view you oppose. That's unfortunate.
Sir, we are on parallel
tracks. You stay in yours, I mine.
Thanks for dropping
in.
Sing
A dead man has no
choices. He has choices only after he has been quickened.
A spiritually DEAD
man has no choices; he is in enmity against God; he is incapable of discerning spiritual things. How does he exercise choice?
God alone must choose to regenerate him; the dead is
completely passive in his being quickened by God.
This is a plain and
simple reason. And you say reason is suspended.
I let you have the
last word, Peter.
Sing
Peter, it is sad
that you don't seem to understand a simple thing. When Paul, as a saved man,
chose to daily reckon himself dead, buried and risen again, after God having
quickened him from his native state of deadness, and a man in his native state
of sin and death mortifying himself are two VERY DIFFERENT matters.
Where's your reason? A
dead man mortifying himself? Your whole idea is just nonsensical.
We are talking past each other. Waste no more time.
Sing
Thanks, Peter.
I won't waste more
time.
I will leave you in
your own soundness.
Dellis Worsham Sr.
I am beginning to
see, more and more, where the Arminians are so much in error concerning the
scripture.
I have always
believed that what Adam fell into because of sin, we are brought out of by God
for the purpose of restoring us unto Him who loved us from the beginning.
There is a
difference between being dead in sin and being dead to sin. I think that's what
Paul was talking about. I know without a doubt that he wasn't talking about
being born again on a daily basis.
Sing
I like the wonderful
distinction, dead in sin and dying to sin. THANKS.
A man dead in sin is
in active enmity against God; none seek God, none understand, none fear God,
etc.
A man, having been
quickened by God, is commanded to die to sin daily. Only a living man, having
been born of God, can act to mortify the remaining sin.
Sing
It is sad that you
folks can't stick to the point raised by the quote from Pink, but drag in a
host of other matters and beat around the bush. I'm not impressed by your
vast knowledge of other related matters.
Election is a
hateful doctrine even though the Scriptures declare "elect according to
the foreknowledge of God" as the foundation of the true grace of God.
The outworking of
that doctrine immutably guarantees the eternal salvation of all for whom Christ
died to save.
Dellis Worsham Sr.
I began as a Baptist
long ago. I fell into the calvinist thing for a bit, but could never get used to being called a robot by those who were of the Arminian sort. After much observation,
I also concluded that the calvinist rests his hope on God for more things than
should be. eg, I've seen many live and act as if they did not think living a
life of sin after conversion was of any matter at all. They conclude that God
must want them to live that way, else He would change them. I guess this is the
hyper sort of calvinism that produces that mindset.
After reading your
posts for the last few years, I know that this Primitive Baptist is saved by
grace, and I know I have a responsibility to do my part in sanctification. I die
daily. I sin, but I don't entertain the notion that God is happy with it. If
anything, it's God who is convicting me of it because He wants to help me conquer
it... The hypers don't know the word conquer either.
Thanks, Brother Sing,
for being steadfast and true to God's word.
Sing
The relationship
between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, unless properly
understood, leads to all sorts of silly notions, from both ditches, the Arminians as
well as the Calvinists, along the gospel highway.
Divine sovereignty
in the context of that couplet speaks of the monergistic activities of God in
turning sinners dead in trespasses and sin into sons of God, fit and destined
for eternal glory; the human responsibility in the couplet refers to the
responsible activities of God's children working out their own salvation with
fear and trembling. God holds His children responsible to live soberly, godly
and righteously in this present world.
It is a complete
folly to think God holds the dead in trespasses and sins responsible to
do so.
One's responsibility
is defined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.
Joe Shultz
This whole thing is
ridiculous. God is not some legalistic lawyer waiting to trip the witness up
and send them to their doom. God is bigger than man’s visions and definitions,
even those of the prophets and apostles. There were messengers but not the
final authorities. The days of arguing over how many angels can fit on the head
of a pin, are over. Go out and do something for the poor, the marginalized, the
oppressed, the jailed. Welcome the immigrant. That is what the Bible and Christ
tells us to do...
Sing
The Bible I have
read tells me a whole lot more than those few things you have mentioned. Yes,
welcome the legal immigrants, prosecute lawless ones; those jailed for crime
and lawlessness, let them rot, defend those in jail for righteousness' sake....
Joe Shultz
Sing, no where
in the Bible does it speak of letting the imprisoned rot. You, yourself, added
that. Be very careful of what men choose to add to the word of Christ. Even the
Apostles. They were C students at best.
Sing
Let the imprisoned
rot - i.e. let justice be done. Let a murderer be hung, and not kept alive at
the taxpayers' expense. Do you even believe in the rule of law and justice?
There are enough of leftist lawless liberals around.
Do you even care for
the countless innocent Christians persecuted in oppressive regimes?
Sing
The Apostles were
NOT Communist students at best, as you imagined.
Ephesians 2:20 KJV —
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
himself being the chief cornerstone.
They were the foundation upon which the church is built. Your low view of the Apostles of Christ is revealing.
Sing
God is gracious and
merciful - turning those in enmity against Him into His children, teaching them
to live soberly, godly and righteously in this present day.
God so loved that He
quickened those spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, and brought the gospel
to inform them of the good news of His saving them.
So what axe do you want to grind, Joe Shultz?
Sherry Miles Nance
I love this!!!!!!
