Perseverance in a life of faith and holiness - reality or fiction?

Does a child of God always exhibit a life of faith and holiness?
Calvinism insists that one who does not exhibit a life
of faith and holiness can't possibly be a child of God to begin with.
Are there times when God's children fail to manifest a life of faith and holiness?

Does this popular notion measure up to the facts of Scriptures?
Do all of God's children go through the strait gate and walk the narrow way?
What about those who make a shipwreck of their faith?
Are they God's children or a they not?
Can children of the devil make a shipwreck of their faith?
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Read and think about the subject in the brief discussion below.

Statement 1: "No life of faith and holiness means no state of grace, i.e. all those in the state of grace will have a life of faith and holiness."

Is such idea biblical truth or injurious falsehood?
Is it reality or fiction?

Statement 2: "No state of grace means no life of faith and holiness... i.e. a state of grace is absolutely necessary to enable a life of faith and holiness."

Does this mean that every child of God evidences a life of faith and holiness?

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Adam
"That man's state is nothing, and his faith unsound, that finds not his hopes of glory purifying to his heart and life." ~ Robert Traill

Sing F Lau
Why is a man's state nothing if it is a state of grace?
If he is in a state of grace, he has been made fit for eternal glory! Most certainly, that's quite something by God's grace.

If it is STILL in the state of nature, then that would be far worse than nothing!
Only a man in a state of grace is capable of faith, whether that faith is sound or unsound! Soundness of faith depends very much on the availability of faithful gospel ministry, as well as diligence attendance unto it. Faithful gospel ministry informs and instructs a child of God concerning his hopes of glory through the finished work of Christ APPLIED to him personally by the free grace of God.

Adam
If he is in a state of grace is the question. Do you think a man can be in a state of grace and not show fruit of it by a purified life? I think not!

Sing F Lau
Brother, ask Lot! Look at Solomon towards the latter part of his life! Did they show fruit of that state of grace by a PURIFIED LIFE? The Scriptures speak of those children of God who make shipwreck of their faith. Jesus speaks of those children of God, who because of the cares of the world become fruitless! (Mt 13 parable is about discipleship of God's children).

A state of grace SHOULD manifest itself in a state of grace... fact is, it DOES NOT ALWAYS. That's reality... assumed and evident in many of Paul's epistles.

A man's state of grace by God's free and sovereign is something very precious, and not nothing, even though his discipleship is messed up, and suffer accordingly.

Christopher
Purified Life ? Who can attain that state if not for the Grace of GOD ? It is a long long long process especially man that has been soaked with the world and all it's evil ways. No one can question or judge the state of man even though there is no evidence seen by man . A man can repent but to conform to the WORD of GOD takes a life time . I guess normal people do not understand the struggles of abnormal people . There are some who can change overnite but they are far and few like the Apostle Paul . Only GOD sees the man's heart condition and say it is good

Adam
You are right Chris, it is a process, but a process means something is happening. What the quote is saying is that if people call themselves believers hoping for eternal glory the effect should be like Titus 2:11-13 says "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
Let no man deceive himself, though he call himself by the name of Christ and does not obey his commands, what is he?

Sing F Lau
"... we SHOULD live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world..." Triple amen to that.

To say that God's children SHOULD - SHOULD - SHOULD be fruitful is very different from saying that THEREFORE each and every child of God WOULD SURELY be fruitful, and that those that are not fruitful can't possibly be God's children at all to begin with. That is the assumption of many.

Indeed let NO PREACHER go around lying that every child of God would live purified life, life of faith nd holiness. That simply does not measure up to facts revealed in the Scriptures.... See More

Such a preacher is utterly ignorant of the SIMPLE FACT that SONSHIP is wholly and solely by the free grace of God... whereas fruitfulness as a DISCIPLE is dependent upon many human factors.

There are healthy children, and there are sickly children. Some preachers would dismiss the sickly as children of the devils because they believe the lie that all God's children as strong and healthy, and there are no sickly weak children among them!

Liars insist that all of God's children live purified life. God plainly diagnosed his people this way, "My people are bent on backsliding."

Adam
Sing - Are you suggesting that the same Lord who justifies us will not also sanctify us?

No one said that there are not weak and sick, but the scripture instructs us to do what with them? Leave them in their weakness or exhort and correct?

I also agree that preachers ought not say that every child of God will live a completely purified life, but to say that a child of God will not undergo purification is equally false.

Sing F Lau
"That man's state is nothing..."

Ok, let's leave aside first whether it is nothing or something.

Fact 1: A man has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with the state he is in. If in the state nature, and all (absolutely everyone without exception) begin with that nature... he was conceived and born in the state of sin. And there is absolutely nothing he can do about it to get out of that state. He loves, and wallows in his native state.

Fact 2: A man has NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the state of grace he is in. God alone, through His FREE and SOVEREIGN grace brought that man who was by nature in the state of sin and death, out of that state into the state of grace and salvation.

Eternal salvation is by God's free and sovereign grace alone. Free grace alone brought a man out of the state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life.

The state of a man - whether in the state of nature or of grace - is really beyond and outside his power. Without free and sovereign intervention from outside of him, he would remain in the state of sin and death in which he was conceived and born.

However, his state of WELL BEING is an entirely different issue. His state of well-being depends very much upon his discipleship... his obedient responses to the gospel ministry. He is responsible to work out his own salvation, because God has first saved him with eternal salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Adam
Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures. What you are suggesting sounds like a calvinist's version of "Easy Believism."

Christopher
A man's ways are right in his own eyes but the LORD sees and weighs the heart.... There are many who live a "purified life" but the heart is still empty because they still feel unworthy because the question is what is purity ? GOD's standard or man's standard ? GOD is merciful and gracious whereas man is critical and judgemental . God recognizes ... See Morethe frailty of man and HE judges the heart condition of man ,just like David a murderer and wife stealer yet GOD says that david is a man after HIS heart but of cos david had to face the consequences of his sins . Let us not get ourselves entangled with the ways of man but let us understand the HEART of GOD who loves us all and revel on HIS LOVE ! Remember the 2 most important commandments LOVE GOD LOVE our neighbours as ourselves above these there is NO OTHER !!! Amen

Adam
Chris you said "There are some who can change overnite but they are far and few like the Apostle Paul." Let me ask you, did Paul have access to more grace than the next guy? What about David? Let us not condone or make excuses for our sin, but rather submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee.

Christopher
I'm not saying that we condone sin but rather let us take each step at a time step by step . We only have one life and let us live it well for the glory of GOD and live it by simple faith for faith comes from hearing . Let us hear from GOD and from the people around us who can teach all of us to live correctly. We want to be encouraged by believers... See More to grow in our faith and not reminded again and again of our state we were or are in. We want to be cheered on brother as all of us are running in the same race . JESUS always encourages people and his disciples with parables. Sometimes some of these quotes by men do not reach that mark but rather it sometimes derides a persons self-worth and faith. I don't mean to debate with you but just to let you know how it feels. I am not in that level of spiritual maturity but this is my understanding of scripture ,Let us teach one another.......with love and gentleness ...and continue to love one another with the LOVE of the LORD

Adam
Bro Chris, I shun anything that tries to give me self worth. Many preachers today stroke self and try to comfort men in the flesh. The problem is that is what the flesh wants to hear. As Isaiah said in ch 30: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not to us right things, speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits..."

Kind of sounds like what Paul said: men would gather teachers who would tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

Remember, the Lord disciplines those that He loves and no discipline is comfortable while the rod is upon us! Let us consider our ways.

Sing F Lau
"Sing - Are you suggesting that the same Lord who justifies us will not also sanctify us?"

Adam, you DON'T seem to understand a very basic thing - there are things that God ALONE does... and what HE does He does it EQUALLY well in every elect.

Every elect is equally justified, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less justified than any other elect.

Every elect is justified by their faith to a great variety of degree - all conditioned upon the degree of their faith. This is experiential justification in contrast to legal justification conditioned upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Every elect is equally regenerated, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less regenerated than any other child of God.

Every elect is equally adopted, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less adopted than any other child of God.

Every elect of God is EQUALLY sanctified (separated) from the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. Theologians call this DEFINITIVE SANCTIFICATION - which is a once for all, complete and unrepeatable... because it is entirely by God's free grace alone. In this definitive sanctification, every child of God is equally sanctified by God, because it is the sanctification that God alone WORKED it Himself by His free grace.

However, your question involve a sanctification which is very much conditioned upon the obedience of God's children. And that human factor in the equation is where ALL the trouble lies... God has said, "My people are bent on back-sliding..." That's pretty blunt... what a no-frill point blank diagnosis!

That's explains why there are Lots and there are Abrahams among God's children

Yes, a child of God SHOULD - SHOULD - SHOULD... but how often does he do so? I fear not very often at best... Look at all the constant rebuke and admonition and censures in all the epistles.

I am stating reality... not at all condoning the poor discipleship that prevailed. It is misleading to give the impression that God's true children will all live life of faith and holiness!

Adam
Sing you say: " I am stating reality... not at all condoning the poor discipleship that prevailed. It is misleading to give the impression that God's true children will all live life of faith and holiness!"

I couldn't disagree more! Again you are speaking the same type of notions as the "easy believism" camp.

Anyhow, enough for tonight, I'm off to bed.

Christopher
When i say self-worth this what i mean...Remember the 2 most important commandments LOVE GOD LOVE our neighbours as ourselves above these there is NO other !If we do not have this in our hearts we are just like those pharisees which is still prevelant in the middle east .

People grow when they are encouraged.People gets discouraged when things are rammed down thier throats even tho" they know it's for thier good. GOD gave us JESUS so that thro HIM he can experience the struggles that we face everyday and gave us HIS ultimate sacrifice.That is the encouragement to live our lives for HIM.HE knows that without HIS GRACE we can do nothing .The HOLY Spirit will help us in our weaknesses when we desire HIM. Let GOD do HIS work.....

Wells
"People grow when they are encouraged." - So in your opinion how do we encourage one another? Is it that we say what the other wants to hear thus flattering them? Or do we ignore obvious errors to preserve peace? I think the best way is to live our lives unto the Lord and "to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27 When we refuse to compromise and allow worldly thinking, this will invariably cause those watching our lives to check themselves. Doesn't this "encourage" them (fellow believers) to also be free from the pollution of this world?

In the words of Richard Baxter, the puritan known for being a great pastor: "Screw the truth into men's minds." I am certain that many are thankful for Baxter's persistant hammering of the truth!

Sing F Lau
"I couldn't disagree more! Again you are speaking the same type of notions as the "easy believism" camp. "

You give me the greatest tickle I have had for a long time. How does what I say have anything to do with easy believism!

Let me give you an example: Supposing Adama said that all American citizens do enjoy the American Dream (i.e. all God's children do live purified life of faith and holiness) Those that do not can't possibly be true American citizens, they are pariah (i.e. that who do not live a purified life of faith and holiness CAN'T possibly be God's children, but children of wrath).

Supposing Osinga disagrees with Odama and insists that there are many American citizens who do not enjoy the American Dream, and yet they are no less American citizens than those who do enjoy the American dream.

Then Adama smugly labels Osinga of 'easy citizenism'!
I say Adama has a perverse idea of the citizenship and American dream!

What a joke!

If God's dear children do live [simple present tense, the habitual state of being] purified life - soberly, godly and righteously - then lots of exhortations and warnings become redundant. All those warnings and admonitions just show otherwise.

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

What kind of life do all these rebuke and admonition presupposes? Is Apostle Paul dealing to real situation?

You need more?
Here it is... said to God's children:
4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Not much of a purified life...

Look at the letters to the seven churches... so much things wanting in most of them... beside their genuine and sincere effort to bear a witness to the Lord.

Sir, may be you have been blessed with a congregation of saints that live purified life. Those that don't you would consider them of children of wrath.

Sing F Lau
Adam Wells@ Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures. What you are suggesting sounds like a calvinist's version of "Easy Believism."

I suggest that words SHOW so serious misunderstanding. See if you can understand.

NO ONE has denied the truthfulness of the first sentence... "Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures." What make you thing that I disagree with you on that statement?

It only shows that you DON'T EVEN know that exact issue being disputed.

The issue is like this:
You are insisting that every human being manifest good health strength. That is a falsehood. And based on that falsehood, is this injurious conclusion-those who do not manifest good health and strength are not human beings.

I objected that your statement is a falsehood, and your conclusion (and that's the standard conclusion of many puritans who had to work in a state church, and not the gathered church) is injurious to those human beings who are weak and poor in health.

Then you conclude that I am for weakness and poor health among men... EVEN though I do everything to promote health and strength among God's children on the one hand, and constantly warn them of the many things that are injurious to their health and strength!

Flabbergasted by your obtuseness, and your readiness to throw around label. Is that the best you can do? It is an insult to label me a calvinist... for I am not one.

Adam
Sing - My goal is not to offend by name calling, but to understand where you are coming from, and so that you can see how I take what you are saying... it seems you are adding to what I have said and what the original quote is saying. It IS NOT saying that men will live perfectly pure lives. It IS SAYING that if one has hopes of heaven and those ... See Morehopes of heaven do not bring about purification (notice the wording, however small or great that purification may be) he is deceiving himself into thinking he is in born again, possibly because he admires Christians or feels it will do him good.

The admonitions are necessary and yes men are prone to backsliding. Consider this text of I Cor 6: " Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Sing F Lau
Adam@ "It IS NOT saying that men will live perfectly pure lives."

Who has given the slightest hint that God's children will live perfectly? Is anyone contending for that worse lie? I have heard of Methodist Perfectionism before! What a deluded fiction!

The point of contention is: you said that grace always manifests itself in a purified life in EVERY child of God. That is a very popular Calvinistic doctrine.

I said the witness of the Scriptures plainly contradicts that false notion, even though it is calvinistic!

Lot was certainly a child of grace. Did he live a purified life? If yes, then I understand what you meant by a purified life. Solomon was a child of grace... look at the last years of his life! Did he manifest a purified life - life of idolatry and multitudes of foreign wives.

Such calvinistic fiction would have to write off these two men, and many others... since they didn't fit the calvinistic fiction that all children of grace live purified life!

The Scriptures tell us plainly that some of God's children make shipwreck of their faith... instead of living a purified life! They, through their carelessness and negligence and unbelief, mess it up to various degrees. Even the candlesticks are removed from churches! If the calvinistic fiction is true, these things would be unnecessary!

Don't think that I am lowering the standard. The biblical standard of godliness must be insisted upon, and those who name the name of Christ must at all time be given all the encouragement - through sound doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness - to live soberly, godly and righteously.

But that is not the same as bearing false witness that every child of grace will live purified life... that's just a fiction and a lie.

Yes, every child of grace OUGHT/SHOULD live purified life. I will end here. But many fail to! Others make a shipwreck of their faith. MANY go through the wide gate and walk the broad way!

Thanks for the exchanges...

Justification, Regeneration, and Conversion - the evidence of both.

How to see the truth like this???

Not a few are logical enough to know that regeneration must logically, as well as chronologically, precede conversion, i.e. the bestowal of eternal life in regeneration makes repentance and faith possible at outward gospel call.

However very few realize that justification by the free grace of God must LOGICALLY precede regeneration by the Spirit. A man who is not justified by the free grace of God is still a man under the condemnation of death, a state and condition he is in by nature.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

By the offence of one >>> judgment came upon all represented by Adam unto condemnation [of death].
By the rigtheousness of one >>> the free gift came upon all represented by Christ unto justification of life.

Justification of life through the free grace act of the Father based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ must LOGICALLY precede the regeneration unto eternal life through the free grace act of the Spirit of God.

But so many have reversed the logical order... claiming that those under the condemnation of death are regenerated first by the Spirit, then their condemnation is removed by God, CONDITIONED on their act of believing in Jesus Christ.

See the discussion on these issues in the exchanges below.
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ebe
"We are not born again by repentance or faith or conversion: we repent and believe because we have been born again." - John Murray

Nipps
Amen. This is certainly the true doctrine of regeneration.

Childers
amen,amen,amen,amen!

Taillefer
John 3

Sing F Lau
We are born again by the FREE - FREE - FREE grace of God, i.e. without us meeting any condition whatsoever.

And one is born again BECAUSE he has been JUSTIFIED BY GOD, that justification of life has taken place by God's FREE - FREE - FREE grace while he was in the state of condemnation and death, i.e God has applied the righteousness of Christ, giving the Holy Spirit the warrant to regenerate the dead.

The Holy Spirit has no warrant to regenerate any whose condemnation has not been removed by God's work of justification.

John Murray did not know the distinction between legal justification APPLIED by God's free grace, and the experiential justification by believer's faith. He confused the latter with the former.

The order set out in his 'Redemption: Accomplished and Applied' contradicts that of the Scriptures, and that which is summarized in his doctrinal standard WCF.

God justifies the UNGODLY, those in the state of sin and death.

Faith justifies the believers, certifies, demonstrates, evidences that they are in the state of righteousness and eternal life!

Johnson
This is a logical sequence, not a chronological one.

Sing F Lau
Whether logical or chronological, justification APPLIED by God's free grace is ALWAYS prior to justification EXPERIECED by believers faith.

Justification applied takes place when God effectually calls an elect out of his state of sin and death in which he is by nature, to that of righteousness and eternal life. The effectual calling out of the state of sin and death REQUIRES justification (to remove condemnation, and give righteousness), regeneration (to removed death and give life), and adoption (to remove alienation, and made member of God's family) and the bestowal of the gift of the Spirit to dwell in the child of God. All these are simultaneous in the effectual call to righteousness and life, but in that logical order, and all by the FREE - FREE - FREE grace of God.

With all the above completed by free grace... faith become possible... leading to experiential justification by faith... as in Gen 15:1-6. There is imputation of Abraham's faith in Gen 15:1-6. There is NO legal imputation nor personal application of Christ's righteousness in Gen 15:16.

Johnson
A distinction needs to be made between a logical sequence and a chronological sequence.

How many regenerated, but unbelieving folk, do you think there are walking around in this world?

Regeneration is not the effect of conversion but the logical cause.

However, should we suppose that one can be born again and not believe?

Regeneration and faith/conversion happens as a "packet" and are not to be separated in time.

When God turns the wheel, all the spokes turn at once.

Taillefer
They can upon regeneration look upon the cross with the eyes of faith and belief. At that moment, they receive the King whom they formerly rejected. God gives them power/ability to receive by the new birth, being born of God.

Nipps
Amen, Trevor and Rick. The idea that God regenerates people and they do not believe and repent as an immediate fruit of that new life is simply HYPER-Calvinism and unbiblical.

Johnson
The John Murray quote IS technically correct, if applied logically and not temporally.

But many Calvinists, in an effort to stress monergism and divine sovereignty, fall for this error.

Another frequent error that some - in a zeal to promote God's sovereignty - fall into is the belief that God regenerates without the use of means.

But the truth is that God uses means (i.e., the instrumentality of the Word of God):

'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3

Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.

........But that is a topic for another time.....

Sing F Lau
I am trying to get something so simple and basic across... but I am not sure if I can.

Can you imagine regeneration LOGICALLY prior to justification... eternal life is given PRIOR to the imputation of righteousness leading to justification unto life?

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Sin brings the condemnation of death, and righteousness is necessary for the justification of life.

The imputation of righteousness leading to justification of life is necessary for and LOGICALLY prior to regeneration.

Justification by faith that follows regeneration is experiential in nature. Faith justifies a believer that heis indeed a child of God, possessing eternal life.

God justifies a condemned dead sinner by forgiving him all his sins and applying to him personally the righteousness of Christ.

The two aspect of justification are very different.

Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Regeneration and faith/conversion happens as a "packet" and are not to be separated in time. "

Does Abraham fit in?
Does Cornelius fit in?
Does Lydia fit in?
And what about Ethiopian eunuch?
And those devout God-fearing Jews who came to Jerusalem from and were CONVERTED on the day of Pentecost?

Were they ALREADY regenerated, or were they still in their state of condemnation and death?

Were their conversion and their regeneration separated with SOME substantial time in between?

Were they regenerated through the means of the gospel ministry? Or were they regenerated long before the gospel ministry was brought to them for their CONVERSION?

I am just inquiring to understand what you have said.

Johnson
Yes, they all fit in.
There are no regenerated people walking around who are not yet converted.

Sing F Lau
You stated that regeneration and faith/conversion are not separated in time - therefore simultaneous.

Was Cornelius regenerated before Apostle Peter came and converted him with the gospel ministry?

Was the Ethiopian eunuch regenerated before Phillip was sent to convert him with the gospel ministry?

Does a natural man fear God and worship Him?

Sing F Lau
Trevor @"Another frequent error that some - in a zeal to promote God's sovereignty - fall into is the belief that God regenerates without the use of means.
But the truth is that God uses means (i.e., the instrumentality of the Word of God):'
========

Take this statement to heart and consider its implication if what you claim is true:

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

First, take note of the declaration: "so is EVERY ONE that is born of born." So, there is one same way of regeneration for EVERY ONE, and the one same way is true of every one that is born of God. (If means is requires, then some elect are beyond the reach of this means. So this idea is obviously ruled out! It is just that simple!)

Second, take note of the fact the when, where and how strong the wind blows IS ABSOLUTELY independent of the activities of man. It is not conditioned upon anything man is or can contribute. Every farmer knows this fundamental fact... sadly only a few preachers do.

Third, man can only observe the effect and evident that the wind has blown... preachers can observe the effect of the activities of the Spirit of God through the means of the gospel ministry, but he has no role whatsoever in the regenerating activity of the sovereign Spirit of God.

Preachers observe the effects and evidence of the regenerating activity of God if the gospel ministry administered by him locates faith in the midst of his hearers. The gospel ministry is the means divinely appointed for bringing to light, make manifest, draws out the faith that is worked in the child of God by the indwelling Spirit.

God does use means in the CONVERSION of His children. And please, only God's children can be converted to the truth through the means of the gospel. The dead can't be converted!

God DOES NOT require or uses means in the regeneration of those dead in trespasses and sins. He does this immediately, and without means. This ALONE guarantees that EVERY ELECT will be regenerated and be made fit for eternal glory!

Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "There are no regenerated people walking around who are not yet converted."
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This may sound very strange to you, but mull and chew over it slowly.

It is precisely that there are regenerated people walking around who are NOT yet converted that need to be converted that the gospel ministry was instituted for such purpose.

There was the regenerated devout God-fearing Jews on the day of Pentecost that needed to be converted, there was the regenerated Ethiopian eunuch riding around on his chariot that needed to be converted; there was the regenerated Italian Cornelius that needed to be converted.

The gospel ministry is the means divinely instituted to MAKE DISCIPLES of God's children, whom He, by His free and sovereign grace and will, has begotten (John 1:13).

As I said, it may sound strange to you... but mull and chew on it...

Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans, whom he described as saints and beloved of God... yet the Apostle said that he has the great urgency and indebtedness to preach the gospel to them! Did you notice this simple fact? They have not heard the gospel, and they need to hear the gospel.... but they are already 'saints and beloved of God' even though they have not heard the gospel, and Apostle Paul was in great urgency to bring the gospel to them.

Just mull and chew over this thought... please don't get choked over this grain of rice.

Wiebe
Sing, how long (time frame) do you believe it takes from being regenerated to being converted as you put it? correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that from your last comment that it could be or is an extended period of time between the two.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. John 3:16. does this not contradict your statement of Christians being "begotten"?

I might be chewing, but I am not swallowing the explanation.

Johnson
Sing, you are getting election and regeneration confused.

Election is from eternity past. Regeneration happens at a point in time.

God ordained to regenerate the Elect from all eternity; but he did not due so until the appointed moment in time.

Sing F Lau
Elmer@ 'Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. John 3:16. does this not contradict your statement of Christians being "begotten"?"
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This will answer you adequately:
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God in the sense described in Luke 1:35. He was the eternal Word made flesh - the ONLY begotten of God.

The elect are begotten of God, born of Him in regeneration.

Sing F Lau
Wiebe@ Sing, how long (time frame) do you believe it takes from being regenerated to being converted as you put it? correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that from your last comment that it could be or is an extended period of time between the two.
========
We don't know how long... but it is certain from the narrative of those converted, they were regenerated before their conversion were recorded for us. Consider that of the devout god-fearing Jews "out of every nation under heaven" that were gathered at Jerusalem; the Ethiopian eunuch, the Italian Cornelius, etc, etc.

How long was Cornelius a devout God-fearing man, prayed to God always" - before Apostle Peter was sent to convert him to the gospel truth? I don't know. If you need to know, do a research. I take it that ONLY a regenerated man can be a devout man, fearing God, and prays to God always.

How long has Lydia gathered by the riverside to worship and pray to God before Apostle Paul was instrumental in her conversion? I don't know. I take it that Lydia must be a regenerated woman before she could worshipped and prayed to God.

Sing F Lau
Johnson@ "Sing, you are getting election and regeneration confused. Election is from eternity past. Regeneration happens at a point in time."

What did I say that make you conclude that I confused them? Election is indeed from eternity - before the elect existed. Regeneration is indeed at God's approved and appointed time.

I didn't talk about election. I talked about regeneration and conversion, both in time! It is more likely that you are confused about regeneration and conversion!

Regeneration is ALWAYS logically and chronologically prior to conversion - even in the closest case possible. Just imagine the best scenario... A preacher is preaching. Preaching - reasoning, demonstrating and persuading the hearers of the gospel truth takes time, hearing takes time, understanding takes time... (and surely ONLY those who are ALREADY regenerated are able to hear and discern spiritual things... and hearing, understanding, being persuaded and turning around take time... these do not happen instantaneously, do they? ). There is a time frame between regeneration and conversion... some very long, others shorter.

John@ "God ordained to regenerate the Elect from all eternity; but he did not due so until the appointed moment in time."
I am talking about regeneration and conversion in time... that regeneration is always CHRONOLOGICALLY prior to regeneration. Just look at all those cases of conversion recorded in the Scriptures. Look at their lives before conversion - were they still dead in trespasses and sins, or they giae evidence of born again, and needed to be converted to the gospel truth?

Wiebe
@ Lau: I am not disputing that regeneration takes place prior to faith, but I have been led to believe that the time factor is almost simultaneously while still keeping the order of salvation.

Wiebe
@ Sing in the 1 John 5:18, it is only the KJV that uses the "begotten" term. the rendering is "born of God", but we know Jesus was not born of God: He was not regenerated like us.

Nipps
@ Sing... In reference to John 3... Do you think that the wind blows and then days or months later the leaves or grass move??? The grass and leaves (elect) immediately are moved by the wind (spirit).

Sing F Lau
@Nipps... a valid rhetorical question, but quite misguided! Such a question misses the whole point of the illustration, beside taking the illustration in the wrong literal sense!

The point of the illustration is that the wind blows INDEPENDENT of man's presence and activity, i.e. the Spirit's work of regeneration is FREE, SOVEREIGN and INDEPENDENT of human mean and activities. The wind DOES NOT wait until someone is there to observe the effects of its activities. (According to some, unless there are men standing under the tree, the wind can't and won't blow!)

In spiritual term, the way appointed to discern the regenerating activity of the Spirit is to preach the gospel. If there are faith and repentance, then it is evidenced that the Holy Spirit has worked... then you are seeing 'the leaves or grass move' expect in your rhetorical question - a point which the illustration DOES NOT deal with.

The effects of the Spirit's work of regeneration can ONLY BE OBSERVED or BROUGHT TO light through the gospel ministry.

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."

The passage states plainly, that life and immortality - the effects of the regeneration work of the Spirit based on the finished work of Christ - are brought to light through the gospel.

The gospel ministry is the means to bring to light life and immortality that ARE ALREADY there. The gospel ministry CANNOT bring to light what is NOT ALREADY there! It is not the means to bring life and immortality. That's a devil's lie!

Imagine you turning the light in a dark room. Your turning on the light make manifest the furniture that are already there. Your turning on the light DID NOTHING to bring the furniture into the room!

Sing F Lau
Wiebe@"I am not disputing that regeneration takes place prior to faith, but I have been led to believe that the time factor is almost simultaneously..."

The 'almost simultaneous' idea is due to the false idea that regeneration conditioned upon the instrumental means of gospel ministry... i.e gospel regeneration. That is a popular, and common error.

Conversion of God's children (elect that are regenerated) is conditioned upon the instrumental means of gospel ministry. 'Faith comes by hearing.' I fear too many believe 'eternal life comes by hearing'!

You can keep your 'simultaneous' belief. I will keep to the biblical examples that show regeneration is direct and immediate, without the gospel ministry, and the various substantial time laps between the regeneration and the conversion of an elect of God through the gospel means some time later.

Sing F Lau
Wiebe, I don't know what is the issue concerning 1Jn 5:18. Can you please explain?

Here is 1John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

'Born' and 'begotten' in the passage above have the same root word in Greek.

Christ is the only begotten Son. Perhaps you draw the conclusion that, therefore there are no other begotten beside the one begotten Son.

Then we have forgotten the one cardinal rule of interpretation: context. context. context. Christ is begotten in a different sense then the elect are begotten. We need to give attention to the SENSE, not the SOUND-BYTE.

Sainz
the evangelical Calvinist earnestly calls all men to repentance, not because, on their own, they are able to respond, but because we are commanded to the cast forth powerful word of God as a seed to which the Holy Spirit sovereignly enables men to respond as He applies the grace of regeneration to His elect, to those the Father has given to the Son as a bride from eternity (John 6:37, 39).

Sing F Lau
That's gospel regeneration, the Holy Spirit needs the preaching of the gospel in order to do His work of regeneration. That will exclude some elect from being regenerated, unless you have an exception clause to include such... an idea which begets a bigger problem.

How does the Holy Spirit then regenerate those elect who are incapable, for various reasons, of being reached with the gospel preaching?

Is there an alternative way to regenerate them apart from the gospel ministry?... See More

If yes, then what do you make of Christ's own plain statement, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT"?

The words "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" permit of no exception. It permits of ONLY one way in regeneration, and it applies equally to each and every single elect.

God the Spirit regenerated directly and immediately... WITHOUT any instrumental means, and it is the same to EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit. This alone ensures and guarantees that every single elect is regenerated.

Every farmer knows perfectly well that the wind blows with absolute sovereignty, totally independent of his presence or activities. He can only observe the effects - if there twigs on the ground, windfall, fallen trees, etc... then he knows that the wind has blown.

Only a few preachers seem to realize the same truth about the work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

Sing F Lau
The Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius were regenerated long before the gospel were brought to them. These two, and many others in the Scriptures debunk the popular myth of gospel regeneration.

Is Gospel Preaching a necessary Aid for Regeneration???

Was the activity of the wind seen here or anywhere dependent upon the presence or activities of men?
Then why so many preachers insist that the Spirit's activity of regeneration depends on their activity of preaching?
Let God be true, but every man a liar.
======

One of the central tenets of Calvinism teaches that the gospel preaching is a necessary aid for the Spirit's work of regeneration. This popular notion is CONTRARY to the Holy Scripture. Gospel preaching is a necessary instrument for the conversion of God's children.

Here are some exchanges on the subject. Let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

Sainz
the evangelical Calvinist earnestly calls all men to repentance, not because, on their own, they are able to respond, but because we are commanded to the cast forth powerful word of God as a seed to which the Holy Spirit sovereignly enables men to respond as He applies the grace of regeneration to His elect, to those the Father has given to the Son as a bride from eternity (John 6:37, 39).

Hacker III
good stuff

Lochridge
Blessed truth.

Sing F Lau
That's gospel regeneration, the Holy Spirit needs the preaching of the gospel in order to do His work of regeneration. That will exclude some elect from being regenerated, unless you have an exception clause to include such... an idea which begets a bigger problem.

How does the Holy Spirit then regenerate those elect who are incapable, for various reasons, of being reached with the gospel preaching?

Is there an alternative way to regenerate them apart from the gospel ministry?

If yes, then what do you make of Christ's own plain statement, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT"?

The words "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" permit of no exception. It permits of ONLY one way in regeneration, and it applies equally to each and every single elect.

God the Spirit regenerated directly and immediately... WITHOUT any instrumental means, and it is the same to EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit. This alone ensures and guarantees that every single elect is regenerated.

Every farmer knows perfectly well that the wind blows with absolute sovereignty, totally independent of his presence or activities. He can only observe the effects - if there twigs on the ground, windfall, fallen trees, etc... then he knows that the wind has blown.

Only a few preachers seem to realize the same truth about the work of the Spirit of God in regeneration.

Sing F Lau
The Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius were regenerated long before the gospel were brought to them. These two, and many others in the Scriptures debunk the popular myth of gospel regeneration.

Powell
Sing, I think that Michael is speaking of the ordinary call of the Gospel and the ordinary means. God has ordained the means as well as the result. As God, He does as He pleases. working by the means, without the means, or against the means. As He chooses. The Lord knows those that are His, but those who name the name of Christ are called to depart from iniquity. We are called to preach the Gospel to every creature; God does as He pleases.

God can send the ravens to feed the prophet; but ordinarily the prophet must work for his bread, the ordinary means. It is tempting God to ignore the ordinary means and "trust" God to provide extraordinary ones. God can send angels to catch you, but not if you play the fool and jump off the temple.

Jesus illustrated the method: He told Nicodemus about the work of the Spirit as the wind, but He still preached the Gospel to him.

Sing F Lau
The preaching of the gospel was ordained for the CONVERSION of God's children, NOT as a means necessary for the REGENERATION of sinners dead in trespasses and sins! Regeneration brings eternal life to the dead; gospel preaching gives LIGHT to God's children.

Yes, God does as He pleases... and He is mighty pleased to regenerate, to produce His children, without the help of preachers! No man fathers his children by the help of midwives! Yet some self-conceited midwives would insist otherwise! Even so, many preachers insist that God, whom they say does as He pleases, needs their preaching activity for Him to quicken the dead!

There is NO ordinary means NOR special means in regeneration. Regeneration is WITHOUT any means. Regeneration is by the direct and immediate power of the God. No means needed at all. The gospel ministry is the means divinely appointed for the CONVERSION of God's children, those whom He Himself has quickened by Hid Spirit based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Milne
Sing - for starters, there's the issue of James 1 and 1 Peter 1 that you still have to deal with... and it's speculative presumption to claim that there are some elect that God has chosen to save yet has chosen to not give them the gospel. The witness of the New Testament is that regeneration causes faith in the gospel... it is not therefore unreasonable to say that the Holy Spirit needs the preaching of the gospel in order to regenerate them and cause faith in the gospel. Check the example of Lydia in Acts 16... Paul preached, and God opened her eyes. We'll grant the exception of John the Baptist, but his role is certainly not normative for the New Testament believer. And why would you think that the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius were regenerated long before the gospel was brought to them? Are you claiming that it's ordinary for regenerate people to not believe the gospel? Check the John 3 passage... it blows where it wills, but people see and hear the effect of it. The effect of regeneration is faith in the gospel. It would be like going somewhere where we see and hear no evidence of wind, and then claiming that because the wind blows where it wills, that it's blowing there, too.

The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit. The Spirit does not go around conquering the rebellious hearts of men without His weapon. By arguing for a chronological separation of regeneration and faith in the gospel, you are arguing for an ineffective regeneration, a blowing of the wind without effect, a Holy Spirit that does not make men holy...

Sing F Lau
Milne, please state precisely what are the issues of James 1 and 1 Peter 1 that need to be dealt with.

As for the CONVERSION of Lydia... please note that PRIOR to Paul's gospel ministry to her, Lydia was ALREADY a worshipper of God. If you wish to continue to believe that she was still UN-regenerate, therefore STILL in her native state of sin and death, but was ALSO a worshipper of God.

"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Whose heart the Lord opened simply means God granted her understanding of the spiritual things spoken to her by Paul. God opens the heart of His children.... God needs to regenerate those that are still dead in their trespasses and sins.

Powell
"from a child you have known the holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise...." Do not neglect means.

Sing F Lau
Amen, do not neglect the means, because the means will make you wise... instructs and informs you ABOUT the salvation that God has bestowed on you by His FREE grace. The means PLAYS no role whatsoever in the bestowing or the securing of the salvation. The means makes you wise - instructs, educates and enlightens you - in the salvation that God has bestowed on you.

Do not neglect milk and meat, for they will nourish you... but milk and meat play NO role in the bestowal of the life whatsoever!

Sing F Lau
Bud@ "I think that Michael is speaking of the ordinary call of the Gospel and the ordinary means."

'Ordinary call... ordinary means' - these necessarily imply special call and special means.

Can you please tell us what they are?

Don't you think Christ's words exclude all such idea about the ordinary and special means?

I mentioned this before... read it again.
If yes, then what do you make of Christ's own plain statement, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT"?

The words "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" permit of no exception, whether ordinary means, and special means. It permits of ONLY one way in regeneration, and it applies equally to each and every single elect, and it is by the direct and immediate power of the God in quickening the dead.

Do I make sense?


Powell
Sing, it does not say make you wise "about" salvation, but make you wise "unto salvation." Jesus put it this way, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life."

Sing F Lau
Powell@"Jesus put it this way, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life."

I hope you don't put the words of preachers in the same category and same level with the living giving words of the Christ, the Eternal Logos.
Christ alone could summoned Lazarus out of his death. No apostles or preachers could do that.
All that the apostles could do was to help remove the grave cloth from the resurrected Lazarus... to free him from the bondage of the grace cloth.

Powell
Acts 11: 13 And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Sing F Lau
Powell@"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved..."

You ever asked, "saved from what?"
Saved from eternal condemnation and hell?
Or save ignorance and darkness concerning their glorious salvation ALREADY bestowed upon them by God's free grace?

1Ti 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." The gospel ministry brings light and understanding, thus saving God's children from darkness of lies and falsehood and superstition. A faithful gospel ministry SAVES BOTH the preacher himself and those under his charge. It has nothing to do with eternal salvation... it saves in the temporal sense... delivering from timely evils.

Powell
1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Regeneration is of incorruptible seed, by the word of God.

Sing F Lau
Powell@ "Regeneration is of incorruptible seed, by the word of God. "
======
What is the incorruptible seed spoken of? Scriptures have been corrupted by many... the gospel too!

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." Who or what is the word of God that lives and abides forever? Who or what is the word of God?

Re 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

Who do the personal pronouns 'his' and 'him' refer to? The word of God, do they not?

Have you consider that the Word of God is none other than the life-giving Eternal Logos, the second person of the Godhead?

If regeneration is by the Eternal life-giving Logos, then when there was no written word or the gospel preaching - and there was a VERY LONG PERIOD when there was none of both - regeneration of God's elect took place AS USUAL.

SO IS EVERY ONE - no exception... not some by ordinary means, and others by special means, whatever they are - that is born of the Spirit!

Milne
James 1:18 - "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

God regenerated us...
1) of his own will
2) by the word of truth

The first does not negate the second. The fact that God regenerated us by his own will (the whole point of the John 3 passage) does not negate the fact that he used the means of the preaching of the gospel.

1 Peter 1:22-25 - "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for 'All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.' And this word is the good news that was preached to you."

Again, God caused us to be born again (fully in agreement with John 3) through the word of God. And note that Peter makes it explicit - "this word is the good news that was preached to you."

The ordinary means that the Holy Spirit uses in regeneration is the preaching of the gospel.

Sing F Lau
Powell @ "And note that Peter makes it explicit - "this word is the good news that was preached to you."

Plain WRONG. Please read what is said... don't just make it say what you want! Please read slowly and carefully... take the SENSE, not just the SOUND-BYTE!

"And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." The word and the gospel are clearly distinct... by the preaching of the gospel 'the word' is made known. The gospel is NOT the word; the word is made known by the preaching of the gospel.

When, where and how the wind blows is absolutely
independent of the presence and activities of men.
Few seem to understand this basic fact.

Sing F Lau
Milne@ "The ordinary means that the Holy Spirit uses in regeneration is the preaching of the gospel."

If preaching is the ordinary means in regeneration, then what is the special means? Then how many ways of regeneration are there? But Christ has declared in the plainest term possible... the same way of regeneration applies to every one that is born of His Spirit. So, how?

Powell
Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Powell
1Cor 11Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
But I refrain from further comment.

Sing F Lau
Powell@1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
=======

When the gospel come to THEM THAT ARE SAVED... the preaching of the cross speaks of the power of God in saving them. THEM THAT ARE SAVED are there first... the gospel ministry came to them... the gospel is the message speaking of God's power of saving them.

TO THEM PERISH, the same gospel is perceived as a foolishness.

The message play no role in their regeneration. They are already SAVED before the gospel came to inform and instruct them of the power of God in saving them.

Message has no power to save. Message informs and educates the hearers of the power of God unto salvation.

Sing F Lau
Nate@ "And why would you think that the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius were regenerated long before the gospel was brought to them?"

Concerning Ethiopian eunuch, here was a man who traveled all the way from the far south to Jerusalem TO WORSHIP God... he was a man earnestly reading and searching the Scriptures. If you insist that he was UN-regenerate, still in his native state of sin and death, then you probably believe that a man dead in trespasses and sin DOES worship the God of the Bible!

Concerning Cornelius the Italian, have you not read.... "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." God even sent His angel to inform him that He is pleased with him. You see an UN-regenerate man here?

All I can respectfully say is, "Please take off the coloured glasses and read them again... and let them say what they say! Don't make it say what you want it to say!

Of the man in their native state, it is declared, "there is none that seeketh after God.... there is no fear of God before their eyes...'

Cornelius was a man that sought after God... and feared God with all his house... and you pronounced him an UN-regenerate man! I am lost for words! What arrogance!

Powell
Except this: 1Thess. 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Milne
Oh, but why bother with the Ethiopian eunuch or Cornelius? Let's come up with a better example... how about Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin and a teacher of Israel? Surely he must have been regenerated, too? Why, he even sought out Christ to go ask him about eternal life! He must have been regenerated then!

But wait... Christ says to him, "you must be born again." Without the Spirit's work of regeneration, bringing about faith in the gospel... all of Nicodemus' worship of God, all of his fearing of God, all of his seeking after God, all of his earnestly reading and searching the Scriptures... even with all of that, he would not see the kingdom of heaven. And just as Nicodemus needed to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit, so likewise the Ethiopian eunuch and Cornelius needed to be regenerated.

Sing F Lau
Milne@ "But wait... Christ says to him, "you must be born again."
========
A basic error is made.

Christ DIDN'T say that. The statement He made is not addressed to Nicodemus personally, not in the second personal singular. Christ declared a statement of truth to Nicodemus. He was not telling Nicodemus that he must be born again.

Christ DID say, "Except a man be born again." He was making a general statement of truth, in the 3rd personal singular, about the absolute necessity of regeneration... to which He later added that regeneration is the free and sovereign work of His Spirit.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 'Thee" is second person singular, and 'ye' is the second person plural. Christ did not say to Nicodemus, "THOU must be born again."

What Nicodemus said about Christ in verse 2 shows that he is seeing the kingdom of God in the person of Christ. In light of what is said by Nicodemus concerning Christ and His work, Jesus Christ attributed that to the fact of regeneration, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Powell
Sing. The history does not teach the doctrine. The doctrinal passages do. Yes, Cornelius and the Ethiopian were worshippers of God, just as thousands of people are today, who are not regenerate. You are reading in regeneration where it doesn't exist. The Ethiopian couldn't even understand what he was reading, and Cornelius was sent to Peter to hear the words by which he could be saved.
You should be speechless.

Sing F Lau
Powell@ "The history does not teach the doctrine. The doctrinal passages do."
=====
So, not doctrine taught in the historical Pentateuch? Or the first 5 historical books of the NT?

You evidently missed this declaration here!
"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable FOR DOCTRINE...."

All Scripture, not just the doctrinal passages!
History, the record of God's activity in redemption is in perfect harmony with the doctrine revealed.

Let God be true and every man a LIAR!

Sing F Lau
Powell @ "You are reading in regeneration where it doesn't exist. The Ethiopian couldn't even understand what he was reading, and Cornelius was sent to Peter to hear the words by which he could be saved."
======

It is true the Ethiopian eunuch didn't understand much. But would you use that to dismiss him from being regenerated and a child of God?

That's precisely why the gospel ministry was sent to him, to grant him understanding, to give him light.
Did you overlook this in Eph 4:
11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

The Galatians believers were in a far worse situation... they rejected what they had believed before through Apostle Paul's ministry. Even that can happen to God's children!

Powell
Sing, you would separate Christ from the Holy Spirit.

Sing F Lau
powell@ "you would separate Christ from the Holy Spirit."

How so? Or is that just a wild accusation? The Holy Spirit is sent forth by Christ, to regenerate those whom He has purchased and redeemed. Jesus Christ gives eternal life, and He does it through His Spirit. They work in perfect unity and harmony.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

Christ Himself said of His Spirit's activity: " 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

Christ Himself is the life-giving Eternal Logos, and He gives eternal life THROUGH the regenerating activity of HIS Spirit.

The Father's will is executed by Christ through His Spirit. They work in perfect unison and complete harmony.

Powell
"I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." You are refuted over and over by Scripture which who denigrate, Sing. Give it up. You make the Holy Spirit the Savior, and that is heresy.

Sing F Lau
Powell@"I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
======
A popular passage, but often wrongly divided.

The gospel is the good news... good news because it declares of what God HAS DONE to secure the eternal salvation of His people. The good news is not the OFFER of what God will do if we comply with the condition - but that's what so many people think! The offer won't be good news at all - because men dead in trespasses and sin WILL NOT meet the condition of eternal salvation.

Good news is the message, the message that declares the eternal salvation that God had purposed, and accomplished through His Christ, and have APPLIED it to the elect personally by the work of the Holy Spirit.

The message itself has no power to save any. The message informs and educates and enlightens God's children of what has taken place by God's free and sovereign grace. ONLY the LIVING, those already regenerated are capable of being informed, educated and enlightened with the truth of their salvation by God's free grace.

The same message is perceived by one as a message babbling of foolishness.... but received by another a message declaring the power of God in saving them.... yes, to every one of them that BELIEVES, the message speaks of the power of God in salvation.

ONLY - ONLY - ONLY them that have been born of God, regenerated, is capable of believing the gospel message brought to them.

Paul declared, "18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

To them which ARE SAVED (effectually called out of the state of sin and death to righteousness and eternal life), the message of the cross speaks of the power of God in saving them.

When the gospel preaching come to them THAT ARE SAVED (with eternal salvation by free grace), believing in Christ is made possible. In believing in Christ, they save themselves from lies and errors and falsehood.

Sing F Lau
Powell @ "18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
=======
Apostle Paul has NOTHING to do with regenerating anyone.

All that the Apostle Paul was told to do has SPECIFIC REFERENCE to them WHICH ARE SANCTIFIED... i.e. them which has been separated from their state of sin and death by the free grace of God through the faith that is in Christ alone... i.e on the finished work of Christ

ONLY the regenerated alone, i.e the children of God, their eyes can be opened to the truth through the gospel ministry, they can be turned from darkness of lies and errors to the light of God's truth, and be turned from the deceiving power of Satan... to God.

Powell
That is your trouble, Sing. You do not really believe that you have the gospel or that you have the scriptures.

Sing F Lau
Powell, you are quite mistaken. I have the gospel as revealed in the Holy Scriptures. But that's not the issue. The issue is, regeneration is a direct and immediate work of God, through His Spirit based on the finished work of His Son. The gospel, the good news of eternal salvation in Jesus Christ is ordained for the instruction and enlightenment of His children, that they may be converted to the truth of their salvation by God's free grace.

But you insist that there can be no regeneration WITHOUT man's preaching!

Powell
Sing, you are very ignorant of the doctrine of Scripture as well as other things. Verbal revelation was given in the Garden of Eden and the promise of Christ was given. The first "Bible" but not necessarily the first writing was the books of Moses a very long time ago. Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken, and appealed to them again and again. He also said that his words would not pass away.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You, Sing, are a heretic. Of course you downgrade scripture, so you can invent your own doctrine. As I said before, you should be speechless.

The scriptures are able [powerful] to make you wise....
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God which must be preached by those who are sent [Rom 10 context] Whosoever shall call....shall be saved. How shall they call without faith. How shall they call on him whom they have not heard. How shall they hear without a preacher? You invent some nameless act that you call regeneration, separate it from Christ, the Scripture, and the Gospel and preach it for truth. You would penetrate the mysteries of God which you claim to understand better than the doctrine of Scripture which has been cited to you over and over again on this thread. You must cease and desist.

By this, you trust in your "regeneration" and do not believe the Bible, the writings inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore set the Spirit against Himself and against the Scripture and against the Lord Jesus. Cease and Desist.

Sing F Lau
Powell@ "Sing, you are very ignorant of the doctrine of Scripture as well as other things. Verbal revelation was given in the Garden of Eden and the promise of Christ was given. "
======
I gladly affirm that you are learned in whatever you think of yourself.

May I ask, was Adam regenerated? If he was, how was he regenerated? And was the manner he was regenerated the same as the manner you were regenerated (I assume you are a child of God).

Is the statement of Christ below true of Adam, as well as for you? "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Is 'so is every one that is born of the Spirit' equally true of you and Adam?

Sing F Lau
Powell@ "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God which must be preached by those who are sent [Rom 10 context] Whosoever shall call....shall be saved. How shall they call without faith."

It is faith cometh by hearing. It is not regeneration or life cometh by hearing! Hearing the gospel draw forth the faith already worked in a child of God... someone ALREADY regenerated prior to the preaching of the gospel to draw out that grace of faith in him. The grace of faith in a child of God (a regenerate, i.e.) is drawn forth by the preaching of the gospel.

The spiritual ability to hear cometh by the Life-giving Word of God, Christ who gives eternal life through His Spirit, not by the hearing of the preach word of God.

You asked, 'how shall they call without faith'? That's your question. Apostle Paul DID NOT have the problem of WITHOUT FAITH. Apostle Paul deal with those who has the grace of faith... and preaching is needed to draw out that faith in them. That's why Apostle Paul asked these rhetorical questions: " 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Preaching is very necessary for the CONVERSION of God's children... those who are capable of HEARING, BELIEVING and CALLING, faith comes by hearing, therefore the gospel must be preached, that God's children may be brought to faith, i.e. converted.

Powell
Michael. I am sorry to have taken up so much space on your site. I will wipe my feet and go home. Every blessing to you.

Sing F Lau
Friends, thanks for the exchanges in this thread.

The Popular 5 Solas, with one Fallacious Kink

The kinky one is an illusion, a figment of man's imagination.

Justification before God is NOT by faith, therefore much less by faith alone.
Justification is based solely on the righteousness of Christ alone.
This righteousness is applied to a condemned man by the free grace of God alone,
i.e. without the condemned meeting any condition.
Faith is indeed the ALONE instrument to experience the blessedness...
of one's justified state by the free grace of God.
The blessedness of one's justification by God's free grace
can ONLY be experienced through faith ALONE in the Lord Jesus Christ,
THAT IS, experiential justification is by faith alone.
Few rightly divide the word of truth.
=====

Wiebe posted this popular slogan known as 'The 5 Solas'.
"Scripture alone is the standard, by Christ alone are we saved, salvation is by grace alone, justification by faith alone, for the glory of God alone! ~5 solas.

The following exchanges took place"


McCall
Amen!

Berge
Amen! on that was the reformation built!

Sing F Lau
May I ask a simple question?
Was Abraham justified by God in Gen 12-14?
If he wasn't justified, then he would still be under the condemnation of sin and death, wouldn't he?

Please tell, when was Abraham justified by God?
And please tell, when was Abraham justified by his faith? Please remember that in justification by God, there is imputation and impartation of righteousness to the condemned that was justified. In the justification by faith, there is NO imputation or impartation of Christ's righteousness. There is imputation of the believer's act of believing unto the believing one to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace.

The sola of the 'justification by faith alone' - what kind of justification is meant - is it legal justification by God's free grace or is it experiential justification by faith?

Is the justification by God and freely by His grace, and the justification conditioned upon man's believing one and the same justification?

Please give me one passage of Scriptures that says justification (that involves the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the one to be justified) is by faith, man's act of believing.

Think a bit please. And no 'reformed' shibboleth please, thank .

Wiebe
How about some scripture, Sing? this should answer your question of when was Abraham justified.

Romans 4:9-16
9 Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."

Grega
Romans 4 was the passage I first thought of as well. I like the easy questions. And no one even had to include a 'reformed' shibboleth'.

Brown
Our justification is in the person and work of Jesus Christ the object of ones faith. One does not have faith in their justification nor faith in thier faith.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Just a thought, Gill commentary is fairly actuate:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Rom 4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", Phi_4:7; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness.

Sing F Lau
Elmer, Scriptures ALONE is the way. Amen.
So, according to your understanding of the Scriptures quoted, Abraham was justified by God at Gen 15:1-6, and therefore he was an UN-JUSTIFIED man before that? Are you saying this?

Then you MUST necessarily concluded that Abraham was an UN-JUSTIFIED man, STILL in his native state of condemnation and death EVEN in Gen12-14? Yes or no?

Now a man is either still under the condemnation of death (the state he is in by nature) OR he is a justified by God, through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to him. Do we agree?

Let me remind ourselves some basics:
Condemnation and Death came by sins. EVEN SO
Justification and Life must come by righteousness - either your own or that of a substitute.

'No righteousness, no justification or life' is the Bible's teaching. Righteousness is the ONE and ONLY indispensable requirement for justification and life, the 'justification of life' in the passage below.

" 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

But so many 'reformed' as well as the 'arminians' bring man's faith into the equation of their legal justification by God.

Both believe the devil's lie - that their faith has any instrumental role in their before God.

Faith is the result of justification by God; a fruit and effect of justification can't possibly be the instrumental cause of the same justification. Your rule of non-contradiction applies here as well.

It is 'the just shall live by faith' - it is only the justified that shall live by faith. BUT so many, calvinists as well as arminians, believe, 'the condemned, by their faith, shall be justified by God, and live'! What is perverse twisting!

Faith is fruit and evidence of a justified state by God's free grace. Faith is the instrument to evidence the justification that has taken place!

Abraham was justified by God in the Ur of the Chaldeans when God's effectually called him out of the state of sin and death, to righteousness and life. All of Abraham's life in Gen 12-14 shows that of a justified man walking humbly before God.

And you said he was NOT not justified by God until Gen 15:1-6. There was NO imputation of righteousness, which is at the heart of justification before God, in Gen 15. There is imputation of Abraham's act of faith to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace.

The two are world apart.

Distinction is the essence of sound theology.

I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE.

Belgium
AMEN ! (to the 5 solas)

Grega
Sing wrote: "I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE. "
You would do well to heed your own advice. In the Romans 4 passage the apostle Paul is contrasting justification by the works of the law with justification by faith. Your long post above does not even mention the law one time. You have absolutely no Scriptural basis for what you're saying because you've gone outside of Scriptural parameters to define your own view. You said "Distinction is the essence of sound theology". Your view is so distinct it's not even in the Bible.

Dekker
Faith is not the result of justification by God. It is the result of regeneration. Ephesains 2:8 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Justification comes when we exercise this gift. This is the biblical position which is why it is also the reformed position.

Hartman
Paul told Timothy, "...charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and [aimless] genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the [goal] of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1Tim.1:3-7).

Difficulty lies in that the vain janglers always seem to think that the jangling is coming from someone else-- too proud and too blind to even entertain the thought that they themselves might be erring [1Cor.2:7-16].
---------------------------------
Re: the OT saints, the question of "when?" is misplaced. E.g., when was the Lamb of God slain? "...from the foundation of the world." (Rev.8). Why, then was Jesus born and why did He have to die? "That the Scripture might be fulfilled." This was the implementation of the foreordained truth. (Luke 24:25-27).

So it is with those things that were predestined to befall God's people through the ages. As Heb.11 tells us, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. <> For by it [faith] the elders obtained a good report" (vv.1-2), and in vv.39-40 (following 36 verses not-to-be-skipped) goes on to say, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing for US, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Paul beseeches us to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye bare called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." (Eph.4:1-7).

Wiebe
Scripture must interpret Scripture especially if it is a subject explained in another portion of it.

yes, Genesis 15:6 answers Abraham's justification. Abraham received the same Adamic nature that you and I did and therefore had the wrath of God abiding on him until he was declared righteous. John 3:36; Romans 5:9 and Ephesians 2:3

while I am not sure who would legitimately use "man's faith" for justification. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that "faith" is a gift of God, not of man.

once again, I am not sure who is saying the following
BUT so many, calvinists as well as arminians, believe, 'the condemned, by their faith, shall be justified by God, and live'! What is perverse twisting!

I am not sure what you are saying in your following comments. please explain "And you said he was NOT not justified by God until Gen 15:1-6. There was NO imputation of righteousness, which is at the heart of justification before God, in Gen 15. There is imputation of Abraham's act of faith to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace."

Sing F Lau
Grega@You would do well to heed your own advice. In the Romans 4 passage the apostle Paul is contrasting justification by the works of the law with justification by faith. Your long post above does not even mention the law one time.
===========

I hope you are aware that there are SEVERAL aspects of justifications. Read WCF 11.4 for a start - decretal, legal, vital/personal, experiential/evidential. (the same is found in the quote from John Gill above)

In legal justification, the contrast is between the righteousness of a condemned criminal or the substitute righteousness of someone else. Faith, man's act of believing play no role in his justification before God. "Being justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." FREELY cannot be conditioned on faith at the same time. FREELY is FREELY, independent of everything in, and of man.

In experiential justification, the contrast is between a child of God observing ceremonial law or a child of God believing in God's promise concerning the Messiah. Experiential justification is conditioned on faith in the promised Messiah.

Apostle Paul marshaled Abraham to demonstrate the latter. His experiential justification was long before the ceremonial law was ever instituted. That was the point of his demonstration. Therefore Abrahm's justification was without the observation of the ceremonial law, of which circumcision was one.

His experiential justification, conditioned on faith, took place in Gen 15:1-6.

His vital/personal justification, by the FREE grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, took place in the Us of the Chaldeans when God had called him out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

I hope you understand the above, otherwise we are not on the same page.

Wiebe
while it does not appear that he was, it may have been just before that, I am not 100% sure. Joshua gives a little history lesson in Terah and Abraham served other gods:

Joshua 24:2-3
2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods. 3 'Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.

Sing F Lau
Elmer, yes, Genesis 15:6 answers Abraham's justification. Abraham received the same Adamic nature that you and I did and therefore had the wrath of God abiding on him until he was declared righteous. John 3:36; Romans 5:9 and Ephesians 2:3
============

Elmer, can I conclude that in your understanding, Abraham was an UNJUSTIFIED man, i.e. in his state of condemnation and death, which he was in by nature, prior to Gen 15:1-6? Are you saying that Abraham in Gen 12-14 was still an UNGODLY unjustified man, still the the state of condemnation and death?

Grega
Sing wrote: "I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE."

You preach to us to stick with the Scripture, and not to give the typical reformed response, and then you respond with the Westminster Confession of Faith??? Is this some kind of a joke?

Sing wrote: "I hope you understand the above, otherwise we are not on the same page".

I guess we're not on the same page. I just read what the apostle Paul wrote in his Epistle to the Romans and believe that. I don't need the WCF to define what the apostle Paul meant. What is it with you people who try to foster confusion among God's people by trying to set yourselves up as some kind of authority of Scripture? The true sheep of the Shepherd hear His voice. Yours makes a strange, incoherent sound.

Sing F Lau
Dekker@Faith is not the result of justification by God. It is the result of regeneration.
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Double error here. Take this correction to heart.

Faith is only possible because a man has been justified by God. It is the JUST (the justified ones) who are able to live by faith! An unjustified man, still under condemnation of death does not have faith, much less live by faith.

If faith is the fruit of regeneration, and justification is conditioned on faith, then you have this order: regeneration, faith, justification.

You are saying that regeneration, the giving of eternal life PRECEDES the removal of condemnation of death in justification. If you think that is a biblical truth, you can continue to keep it. No, the Father's work of justification in removing condemnation provides the divine warrant for the Spirit's work of regeneration in giving eternal life. Anything else is IMMORAL.

The common problem here is that you don't distinguish the legal justification which is by the free grace of God, and the experiential justification which is conditioned on faith. The former is God's free and sovereign act is removing condemnation through the imputation of Christ's righteousness. It is LEGAL justification applied to individual elect personally. The latter is conditioned on the faith of a child of God through the imputation of the believing act of God's child. Gen 15:1-6 is speaking of the latter. Very many are confused, and equate it with the former.

It was universally believed by the old school theologians that:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

Sing F Lau
Diane @ Justification comes when we exercise this gift. This is the biblical position which is why it is also the reformed position."
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Reformed position is stated here: WCF 11:4
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"

ONLY after that they been justified personally FREELY (i.e. without the condition of faith!) by the grace of God - when the Holy Spirit has in due time actually apply Christ unto them (when they were in the state of death and condemnation, of course!) that they have the grace of faith worked in them to enable them to believe the gospel truth that is already true of them.

"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7)" WCF 11:2.

Please note carefully the reformed position summarized here: faith is NOT alone in the person justified, faith is one of the saving grace found in a justified person, as mentioned in 11:4.
Faith is a fruit of the legal justification applied personally. This is distinct from the experiential justification by faith that follows!

Faith in Christ is the alone INSTRUMENT to experience and to evidence the justified state by the FREE grace of God.

Don't equate one's idea of 'reformed' as 'biblical' too quickly! Too many are already doing it. Don't add another one to the huge crowd

Sing F Lau
Grega@"You preach to us to stick with the Scripture, and not to give the typical reformed response, and then you respond with the Westminster Confession of Faith??? Is this some kind of a joke?"
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That's because some equate the two... so I try to show that what they think is the reformed position is not something I find in a reformed confession!

Yes, it is a big joke... everyone calling their idea reformed! It is trendy I think!

Wiebe
@ Sing I believe I have already answered your question so I am not sure why you have to rephrase the same question. let me know what your real question is and maybe then we can proceed from there. you need to articulate your point with much less words. imho

Grega
Sing, I think I know where you're coming from now. But I had to read your blog to find it out. I actually liked some of the things I read there. Don't come on so strong, next time. It's puts people on the defensive. even if what you're saying is worthy of consideration. You have to consider your motivation. Are you seeking to win others to your way of thinking, or are you seeking to win a debate, and condemn everyone who differs with you in the process? Too many people to the latter. You seem to be a person who can be above that sort of thing.

Sing F Lau
Wiebe, if, as so many insist that Abraham's justification BY - BY - BY God took place in Gen15:1-6, then one must necessarily conclude that Abraham was still an UN-JUSTIFIED man before that, i.e.still in his native state of condemnation and death.

Does that idea fit what we read of Abraham in Gen 12-14? That's the question.

Isn't there a massive theological blunder involved by saying that Gen 15:1-6 speak of Abraham justification by God? Oh yes, Gen 15:1-6 does speak of Abraham's justification by his faith!

Ungodly Abram justified by God through His free and sovereign grace is A WORLD APART from godly Abraham being justified by his faith... is it not?

SORRY, I failed to express things better. English is not my native language... I think with a Chinese mind, and express it in English!

An Englishman taught me, when there is contradiction, that exegesis is OFF, eisegesis is IN.

Sing F Lau
Grega, I am just attempting to show that there is a consistent way of understanding the Scriptures. So many aren't aware that their position necessarily involves contradictions and deficiencies while they pontificate about the reformed shibboleth with such presumptuous confidence!

No desire to debate at all... passed that stage already. Just prompting people to see that there is massive inconsistencies and contradictions in their supposed 'reformed' view. That's all.

Wiebe
Sing, who is suggesting that Abram was a godly man before God justified him by grace through faith? as I pointed out earlier, him and his father Terah were worshiping other gods.

Sing F Lau
Wiebe, read Gen 12-14 again, and tell us whether you see an UNGODLY man, still under his native state of condemnation and death, or whether you see an godly man walking with the Lord?

Please tell us, is Abraham in Gen 12-14 a justified man or is he not. It seems to me that you see Abraham as a UNGODLY man, still in his native state of condemnation and death - something so contrary to the plain and straight forward narrative in those three chapters! Do you see the point?

I am stating, and not suggesting, that Abram in Gen 12-14 is a godly man, having been LEGALLY justified by THE FREE GRACE OF GOD when God effectually called him out of his state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life. Faith is not involved here... it is FREELY - FREELY - FREELY by God's grace through the righteousness of Christ.

I am also stating that Gen 15:1-6 speaks of Abraham's EXPERIENTIAL justification by HIS FAITH. By his faith, he experienced the blessedness of his justified state that occurred long ago in the Ur of the Chaldeans when grace was FREELY - FREELY - FREELY first applied to Abram personally.

Legal Justification by the FREE GRACE of God, and the Experiential Justification by Abraham's faith are TWO VERY DIFFERENT aspects of justification.

The old school theologians kept this distinction so clearly... their children still do... their step children have not only lost it all, they repudiate it.

Grega
Sing, what's with the sarcastic grin thing? You talk some much about "experiential justification". How about some "experiential SANCTIFICATION'. It's too bad. You have some good points to make, but you're blowing it with your attitude.

Sing F Lau
Grega@ the grin is not sarcastic. It expresses something which is funny to me.

I have come across this common attitude many times, "I like what you said, but I don't like the way you say it." Instead of dealing with the issue under discussion, they get sidetracked with subjective feelings. Quite common.

Attitude problem indeed - got sidetracked by a 'grin' thing!

Sing F Lau
Brother Steve, thank you quoting Gill on Rom 5:1.

Did anyone read it carefully, and noticed that Gill, (very many 'refromed' folks HATE Gill... and slander him as hyper!) in common with the old school theologians of his period, ENUMERATED the FOUR DISTINCT aspects of justification:
- decretal justification of all elect before time.
- legal justification of all elect at the cross... See More
- vital/personal justification of individual elect at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life
- experiential justification as the effect.

I paste the initial part of the quote here: read and think over it:

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Rom_4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it;
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Notes:
- 'THE FIRST OF OUR JUSTIFICATION... a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity.

- The JUSTIFICATION that took place through Christ, and ON - ON - ON all the elect considered in Him, WHEN He rose from the dead.

- The JUSTIFICATION that took place by the free grace of God as God's work -IN - IN - IN each individual elect.

- The JUSTIFICATION that took place by faith, faith as a means our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it.

"We are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification, nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works."

All there... and the common understanding of all the old school theologians... these understanding have been summarized in both WCF and 1689 (more precise, being issued later).