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| "Perseverance in a life of faith and holiness to the end is a condition for entry into heaven." I wish you good luck. |
A young man wrote these words:
"Christian life is a constant
salvation-race run to the end if we expect to be saved ultimately. Therefore,
young Christian, Do not be so proud to think that you cannot fall and perish if
you continue sinning. Fear God and keep faith to the very end, and you will be
saved (see Matt. 24:13, Heb. 10:26-27, 1 Tim. 4:1)."
Is he stating the gospel truth? Is he
confused in some way? Or is it a terrible lie? Give us your considered
judgment.
=======
Sing F Lau
Would you like to condition your ultimate
(i.e. eternal) salvation upon how well you run your salvation-race (whatever
that means)?
Is that good news?
Christopher Cunningham
This is outright Sinless perfectionism, and he
fails to make the distinction between sinning deliberately and falling into
temptation. Too bad David sinned but repented cause according to him David was
lost; same with Peter and his denial of Christ, the same who taught repentance, Acts 2:38-42.
It's Pharisee Doctrine the yoke of bondage going back to law when scripture says the law points to sin as a teaching tool. Instead he thinks the law and gospel are the same thing this is legalism.
Jonah 2:9 Salvation is of the Lord. This refutes his theory in both instances, verses 8 and 9 combined.
Hebrews 10:26-27 makes a distinction between a weak man growing in grace and a man who outright makes himself an enemy of God. We that are growing in grace, hating sin, are not enemies; the carnal Christian who shows no sign of repentance is the enemy. Remember John's epistle in Chapter 2:19.
And finally, Matthew 24:13 says
nothing about losing salvation; rather, saints will endure, that is true, but by
what means? The will of man? Or the work of the spirit Ezekiel 36:25-26, 18:21-31, and Phil 1.
Sing F Lau
"Christian life is a constant
salvation-race run to the end if we expect to be saved ultimately"
========
Question 1:
If a man had not been given eternal salvation
by the free grace of God, i.e. effectually called from his native state of sin
and death, could he even run in the so-called salvation-race?
Question 2:
What is the salvation involved in the
salvation-race run? What kind of salvation does his running secure for him?
Question 3:
Is your ultimate salvation dependent upon
your running well to the end?
Is your expectation to be saved ultimately
dependent or conditioned upon your running to the end?
Well, I sure hope you run well enough to save
yourself ultimately!
Christopher Cunningham
1. No, because the will of man will fail every time his natural state only allows him to rebel. 1st Samuel 15:3 Romans 8:7 and 1:21-23
2. The salvation involved in the race is the work of the holy spirit by calling to election: Romans 9; John 37:-44. Regeneration by the holy spirit ezekiel 36;25-26 18:21-31; Phil 1:6. Justification by Christ through the atonement Hebrews 9:22; Leviticus 17:11; and sanctification: Phil 1:6; Galatians 5:22-27.
It secures our salvation and blessings of God. Christ said his sheep will not be cast out john 6 and 10 but called back, seeking that which is lost.
It is dependent on God's work: Proverbs 16:33; Jonah 2:9; Romans 9:21, not what we do. Our faith and work are a byproduct of
the natural man, which must be repented of when receiving the new nature.
Brendan Burnett
PEOPLE, that post put up by Mr Lau is
something I wrote, and for your sake I wish he mentioned my name. Go onto my
page and have a look at my posting; it is worded just as Mr Lau so accurately
quoted.
Mr Lau also sent me a message saying that he
would do this, so this is fine. However, I therefore wrote back this message to
him in my own defence, for he misconstrued my meaning and distorted the belief.
Here is my message to Mr Lau, with some added clarifications for your sake:
~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr Lau, the doctrine of Eternal Security as
commonly taught is one of the most unbiblical doctrines which I have ever
encountered. By Conditional Security, I do not understand it to mean that we
are saved or kept by good works, which you wrongly attribute to my belief. Rather,
I mean that it is believers alone who remain in Christ, the Vine (Jn. 151-17,
Rom. 11:11-21) and that if believers should spurn the Holy Ghost in their
lives, they will be cut off from the Vine (Rom. 11:11-21, Heb. 10:19-39).
Salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works (Eph. 2:8-10), yet if
believers resist the Holy Spirit in their lives continually, they break faith,
abandon the faith (1 Tim 4:1) and shipwreck their floating vessel of faith (1
Tim 1:18-20). This apostasy will increase to the very end of time in the
Eschaton (Jude 1:5-6, 2 Thess. 2:3 NASB). Christ taught that we must persevere
in faith to the end for final salvation (Matt. 24:13). For we have been saved,
we are being saved, and we will be saved, and it is not the case that once we
are saved we will always be saved, or that we have eternal security, or that
the perseverance of the saints is inevitable. Indeed, there are those from the
Christian faith who have fallen away, like Hymaneus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:20),
various women (1 Tim 5:15), the covetous (1 Tim 6:10) and gossips from the
Church (1 Tim. 4:21).
So I do not agree with your rendition, Mr
Lau, and I would kindly ask you to respect my opinion, and not accuse me of
lying, of denying the Gospel which I love, or that I believe in works
salvation, for that is completely ignorant of the truth.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Now, it seems very evident to me that the description I have given is anything but any heresy (particularly it is not Perfectionism), and it has also never been condemned by any credible Church council of any age of the Church. Additionally, it appears to be virtually the unanimous opinion of the early church and of the majority of Christian believers. Therefore there seems no good reason to condemn what I have said, and indeed it is also the case that he who submits to Scripture and understands it should eventually reach this opinion.
Additionally, Christians, I would ask you all
in good faith and charity to quit with the silly, callous remarks of me
"lying" and me being "legalistic." In the words of John
Wesley, if from my scriptural deduction you believe I am teaching a works-based
Gospel, then let the Gospel be works-based!! He was speaking in exasperated
jest of course.
It's just so silly. It's like reading 1 Tim.
4:7-8 and saying, "Oh how dare you Paul! You're taking all the effort for
your own salvation! Surely, you're trusting in your own works Paul! YOU ran the
race? YOU fought the fight? YOU finished the course?! Get a grip, Paul, you
Pharisaical legalistic!"
How do you think Paul would have reacted to
that? Stop with the nonesense, Christians.
Christopher Cunningham
I have respect for wesley he and whitefield
disagreed but never was heretic thrown around in such a manner. How knows
brendan you may come to these doctrines later on and change your view. Paul
charged timothy to be humble in his battle for truth 1st Timothy 1:18.
I take it there is missing text from the
conversation.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, you are shameless.
Paste here what I wrote initially that you
deleted.
Cease raving here if you can't do that! You
hear?
Christopher Cunningham
I would not call it nonsense but a rebuke and
correction 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 its not hatretd or slander to do such.
Brendan Burnett
Sir, I respect your sentiments and the fact
that your disagreement with me is profound. However, surely it is not Christian
behavior to speak to another Christian just as you have written to me. Behold:
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as
Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the
reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and
respect..." (1 Pet. 3:15).
GENTLENESS and RESPECT, sir. I DO seek to do
this. I cannot return your words to you which you had posted on my wall, for I
deleted your post: I did not copy text--and that was hours ago. I deleted them
becasue it brought a discussion which was not intended on a post of
edification. I apologise if this has upset you, but I did not feel it was the
appropriate forum for such a discussion. Peace.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, you tend to LIE by speaking half
truth!
You didn't mention that you just deleted what
I have written... charging me with Calvinism and other lame excuses..
I wrote this in reply...
=====
Brendan, thanks for your SHAMEFUL
explanation.
I care NOTHING for Calvinism, or ARMINIANISM.
I do care for the truth of the gospel... the
GOOD NEWS.
Your post DENIES the good news of God's work
in securing eternal salvation. You promote eternal salvation based on your
effort of running the salvation-race!
Perseverance has nothing to do you your eternal
salvation.
Perseverance has to do with your WELL-BEING.
That is a biblical truth. But you are
promoting a lie!
Please return to me what I have posted... I
will post it on my wall to expose that it is a LIE that denies the gospel.
Thanks.
=====
So post here what you deleted... and it will
be known that your statements promote LIES and repudiate the gospel of Christ.
Brendan Burnett
Hopefully, Mr Lau, you can see from my
initial three postings above that I do not intend to make this a war, but
simply to defend my own sentiments and integrity. I am not a liar, and God's
Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Therefore as a
child of God, I implore you to correct your speech. It is not said in love.
Mr Lau, I CANNOT return your words to you,
for I deleted a post. I am not sure how to undo this, and if you can direct me
how to, then I will attempt to, and will return them. As for now, I am not sure
there is any way of doing that.
Christopher Cunningham
Galatians 1:8-9 ephesians 2:8-11 come to
mind.
Apart from Christ alone as opposed to our so called freewill no God forbid.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, what did Apostle Paul say to those
who promote ANOTHER gospel?
You are most certainly promoting eternal
salvation conditioned upon your running the salvation-race to the end... IF IF
IF words have any meaning left!
Can those who do not possess eternal
salvation by God's free grace to begin with, even run in your
'salvation-race'!!!
Brendan Burnett
Sir, salvation is by grace through faith,
apart from works, so that no man may boast. For we are God's workmanship
created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which He has prepared beforehand,
that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2:8-10).
>>I do not believe that we are saved or
justified by good works, but that the Holy Spirit by His grace alone effects
salvation is us.<<
But I do not believe that God chooses to save
unbelievers, such that if a believer should choose to not believe, He would be
cut off from Christ. I implore anyone to go and investigate for themselves
those verses which I have brought up, study God's word, submit to it, and come
to a greater knowledge of what is true, so that you may serve the LORD with
fear and trembling:
Jn. 15:1-17
Rom. 11:11-21
Heb. 10:19-39
Heb. 6:4-6
1 Tim 4:1
1 Tim 1:18-20
Jude 1:5-6
2 Thess. 2:3 (NASB)
Matt. 24:13
1 Tim 1:20
1 Tim 5:15
1 Tim 6:10, 21.
These are just a sampling, friends. God bless
you all.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, you are just plain confused.
And this is where the problem lies!
You are just plain ignorant of the
distinction between eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace...
which enables a child of God to work out his own temporal salvation.
There is a salvation which is finished by the
work of Christ...
And there is a salvation which you must
work out for yourself... by your obedience to the Father's will. If you don't do
it, you will mess up your redeemed life big time.
Because of your ignorance or rejection of this
biblical distinction, you remain confused.
You know, I have no respect for a man who
deletes what others say just because he disagrees. And you are one such.
Sing F Lau
Your shibboleth... "salvation is by
grace through faith, apart from works" - through WHOSE FAITH... apart from
WHOSE WORK?
Christopher Cunningham
Ephesians 2:10: we are the workmanship of
Christ not ourselves.
Brendan Burnett
I have had enough of your plain insults, Mr
Sing F. Lau. I am leaving this conversation.
But before I go, I would implore us all,
Christian brethren: It is good to disagree and be able to have a healthy
discussion. But to behave like Mr Lau has (which I am sure is out of character
for him) is nothing but an absolute disgrace. Christ said that it is by loving
each other that we prove ourselves to be His disciples (Jn. 13:35), the
Evangelist echoes the same (1 Jn. 4:20), and the Apostle says that if we are to
give a defense for truth, we are to give it with gentleness and respect (1 Pet.
3:15). I have not seen any of these in the character, mode or form of Mr Lau's
comments. Please Christians, be godly; love Christ and live like Him,
especially among the assembly of the faithful.
God bless you all in the unity of the
fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
Sing F Lau
Brendan... you are not capable of healthy
discussion.
You DELETE my first comment that exposes the
LIES of your initial statements. That's what annoyed me!
You did not have the courtesy to reply...
much less discuss!
Brendan, don't hide behind those platitudes.
Deal with the errors of your beliefs...
Sing F Lau
Brendan @ "Christian life is a constant
salvation-race run to the end if we expect to be saved ultimately. Therefore,
young Christian, Do not be so proud to think that you cannot fall and perish if
you continue sinning. Fear God and keep faith to the very end, and you will be
saved (see Matt. 24:13, Heb. 10:26-27, 1 Tim. 4:1)."
=============
Cunningham @ "This is outright Sinless
perfectionism, and he fails to make the distinction between sinning deliberately and falling into temptation. Too bad David sinned but repented cause according
to him David was lost; same with Peter and his denial of Christ, the same who
taught repentance, Acts 2:38-42.
Christopher, please tell us how did you squeeze
out 'sinless perfectionism' from what Brendan said? I am a little puzzled.
What is the significance and implication of
the distinction between deliberate sin and being tempted into sin?
Did David sin deliberately, or was he tempted
to sin?
Thanks
Christopher Cunningham
I drew sinless perfectionism by the
continuation of the sins statement, as if to hint that make sure we are in the faith, we in some sense must have moral perfection; otherwise its as if making errors
and mistakes will cost our salvation. Now, if he speaks in the sense of habitual
sense, then I agree.
Christopher Cunningham
Brendan has been studying the works of
Pelagian thats how i caught it if he indeed wrote it.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, no one disputes your standing as a
child of God. I am only dealing with your statements that your ultimate
salvation is conditioned on your running the salvation-race to the end, nothing
more and nothing less.
It is out of love for you as a brother in
Christ that I took the pain to explain to the errors of your notions. I want
to convert you from the errors of your way.
God's children can embrace grievous errors!
The gospel ministry is for their sound doctrine, correction, reproof and
training in righteousness.
James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the
truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the
sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a
multitude of sins.
