Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 10:38:22 +0800
Dr Lee inquired:
Pastor Lau,
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. (here https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2026/08/he-also-freely-justieth-1689111.html )
I have
some agreement with most of what is said, but a few I'm still grappling with. Some
further questions:
1) Maybe I read your reply too quickly, but I
still don't have an idea of where you place the Effectual call in relation to
Justification.
2) If justification has to precede
regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order, but then
who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints
were regenerated before justification?
3) If you are saying that the elect is justified at the cross, then are you also saying that the state of condemnation of all the elect is lifted at the cross?
The Puritans wrote about Virtual, Actual and
Declarative Justification.
The first is at the cross, the second by faith and the third by faith and works. (I think I have represented that somewhat correctly!!). I find that to be a helpful way of understanding the whole doctrine of justification.
Tony
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Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 00:19:45 +0800
Brother Tony,
My comments in your post are indicated by ##
Tom == Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I have some agreement with most of what is said, a few I'm still grappling with. Some further questions:
## I have said nothing new in my reply. I am mostly repeating what has been expressed before. We will work together to grapple with, and hopefully resolve, the few that remain.
Tom == 1) Maybe I read your reply too
quickly, but I still don't have an idea of where you place the Effectual call in
relation to Justification.
## I am glad you ask. I am a poor communicator. Read less quickly, and I may make more sense to you.
The effectual call is that divine calling
"out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace
and salvation by Jesus Christ."
Calling an elect out of the state of sin
and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation requires
justification (freely by God's grace), regeneration and adoption - in that logical order and number.
That's the teaching summarised by the Confession, and I do agree with it. If you don't agree, show me what it does say.
Effectual calling involves the justification (the vital/applied aspect),
regeneration and adoption of an elect - they are necessarily
involved in the calling an elect "out of that state of sin and death in which
they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ."
Without any of the three free and gracious saving activities of God, an elect CANNOT be brought OUT OF his native state of condemnation, death and alienation INTO the state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.
Justification and regeneration and adoption are divine acts subsumed under the theological term of effectual calling to grace and salvation. Think of ONE medical surgery that requires SEVERAL distinct and logical procedures.
Tom == 2) If justification has to precede
regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order! but then
who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints
were regenerated before justification?
## There are several issues here.
a. Your 'if... ' and 'surely...' logic betrays an obvious confusion and deficient understanding. Let's look at your argument. You said: == “If justification has to precede regeneration (I'm still not convinced that this is the correct order! but then who knows?), and justification has occurred at the cross, surely the OT saints were regenerated before justification?”==
You are equating and confusing justification applied to individual elect personally [Puritan's 'Vital'] at the effectual call with the justification accomplished for all the elect legally [Puritan's 'Virtual'] by Christ at the cross. So, the 'difficulty' is the result of the confusion and failure to recognise the different and DISTINCT aspects of justification. I am saying with the Confession that justification applied at effectual calling logically precedes the regeneration at effectual call - and this logical order is true of each elect at any time in the redemptive history of the elect, i.e. whether in the OT or NT, see 1689.11.6.
I am saying with you that the experiential justification by faith in Christ and evidential justification by works and faith in Christ FOLLOW AFTER regeneration. We are adequately agreed here. Without regeneration, there can be no believing by us to be imputed to us for our experiential [Puritan's 'Declarative'] justification. Isn't this SO SIMPLE???
The justification that occurred at the cross
is legal [virtual] justification of ALL the elect. (EVEN So, the legal
condemnation imputed to all represented by Adam at the Fall.
The justification that occurs at effectual
calling is legal justification applied to each individual elect personally;
thus what was legal becomes 'Vital.'
The justification that occurs at conversion
is Vital justification EXPERIENCED by faith in Christ and evidenced by works
and faith in Christ.
It is said of all the elect: "The just (a verbal noun meaning 'the justified ones by the grace of God') shall live by faith" - all those that believe do so because they are JUSTIFIED ONES... and God alone does that when they were UNGODLY, and when enemies.
b. Chronologically, justification and
regeneration and adoption happen simultaneously at the effectual calling of
EVERY elect to grace and salvation.
- This is quite obvious from the Confession. Effectual call from sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ MUST REQUIRE justification (freely by grace), regeneration and adoption.
c. Logically, justification precedes
regeneration, and regeneration precedes adoption. Common sense, simple logic
and theology require such logical order. This order is as plain as noonday sun
from the Confession for anyone who can read and whose mind is not prejudiced.
Words do have meaning, and the framers were logicians as well as theologians.
Whether you are convinced or not is another matter.
I do sincerely hope that you are willing to learn and grow in grace and knowledge here. I will make some extra effort... So kindly reciprocate, and please read carefully and with patience.
d. There are various aspects or facets of justification plainly spoken of in the Scriptures. The Confession affirms this simple, but wholly neglected and despised fact, despised because it debunks erroneous soteriology.
Three years ago, at the beginning of my short-lived discussion with the RB pastors and leaders, I said, "There are more streets than one in the Justification Town." Shortly after, I was hastily declared to be in 'serious and fundamental error' by the local 'standard' RB men. I was merely calling their attention to look at 1689.11.4. Nobody cares to even consider it!!!
First, let me quote 1689.11.4 for your
consideration and study:
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."
Note the 3 distinct aspects of justification specifically mentioned above. Faith in Christ enters into the picture ONLY AFTER the Holy Spirit has in due time ACTUALLY applied Christ unto them... i.e. at effectual call, of course.
First, God did from all eternity decree to
justify all the elect:
- there is the DECRETAL aspect: God did decree to justify
ALL the elect before time. All the elect are justified decretively before time.
They were actually justified decretively before time began. Rom 8:29-30. What
was decreed before time took place in time.
Second, Christ did in the fullness of time die
for their sins, and rise again for their justification:
- there is the LEGAL
aspect: Christ did justify ALL the elect by his death and resurrection.
Christ's righteousness is legally imputed to all God's elect. All the elect are
justified in the legal sense. This is a ONCE-FOR-ALL gracious act of imputing
the righteousness of Christ to ALL His elect. This cannot be, and has no
need of being, repeated. Rom 5:12-21. (EVEN SO, was the condemnation of the
whole of mankind in Adam through his act of rebellion).
By Christ's life and death, ALL the elect are LEGALLY justified, but they are not PERSONALLY justified "until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" at effectual calling. At the effectual calling to grace and salvation, Christ's righteousness is applied to each elect personally; in the OT, it was based prospectively on what Christ will do; and in the NT, it's based retrospectively on what Christ has done. Read 1689.11.6.
Third, they are not justified personally,
until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them:
- there
is the Personal/Vital aspect: the Holy Spirit APPLIES the righteousness of Christ to
each INDIVIDUAL elect personally at God's appointed and approved time, i.e. at
the effectual call to grace and salvation. The personal aspect is applied to
ALL the elect, to each one when 'ungodly,' 'without strength,' 'dead in sin,'
'a child of wrath,' when in the state of sin and death, etc. When Christ's
righteousness is applied to an elect personally - by free grace alone - the
condemnation of death is removed, and righteousness of life applied personally,
on that basis, the Holy Spirit regenerates the justified elect individual. No
justification applied, no regeneration! The Spirit of God works in harmony with
God the Father: His Spirit regenerates ONLY those whom He has justified
personally by the righteousness of Christ.
When God has FREELY and SOVEREIGNLY done the above, i.e. when Christ has been APPLIED to an elect personally at the effectual call to grace and salvation, that elect is enabled to believe in Christ through the preaching of the gospel. The time lapse between the effectual call and conversion at the gospel call varies widely. Conversion through the gospel preaching does not even take place for some of the sentient elect - read 1689.10.3. Are you shocked by this statement?
The actual application of Christ's righteousness to each elect personally - whether in the OT or the NT - is based solely and wholly upon the righteousness of Christ at the cross; For the OT saints, the righteousness of Christ was applied to them based on what Christ would accomplish. For the NT saints, the righteousness of Christ is applied to them based on what Christ has accomplished.
1689.11.6 states this plain truth: "The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament."
However, whether before or after the cross, justification APPLIED always precede regeneration. Removal of the condemnation of death on the elect personally and the giving of the righteousness of life to him personally by God (justification applied) MUST logically precede the giving of eternal life by the Holy Spirit (regeneration).
This leads us to the next aspect:
- The Experiential aspect: This is what we read in Gen 15, in Cornelius, in those converted on the day of Pentecost, in the eunuch, Lydia. Through the preaching of the gospel, God blessed the faith of a believer in the promised Seed, worked in them by the indwelling Spirit, to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. 'His faith is accounted to him for righteousness.'
God justifies the UNGODLY - the righteousness
of Christ applied personally.
Faith justifies the BELIEVERS - the blessedness of the imputed
and applied righteousness experienced personally.
What God declares about the UNGODLY CONDEMNED SINNER is very different from what faith declares about a believer. The former is forensic, and the latter is experiential.
Not all the elect of God enjoy experiential justification through the ministry of the word. Some are not reached with the gospel. Others are incapable of being reached with the gospel. The new school Baptist soteriology has no place for such... contrary to 1689.10.3.
Experiential and evidential justification FOLLOW regeneration. New school Baptists take this as the ONE and ONLY street in Justification Town, and worse still mistake these two streets as the Forensic Avenue.
- The FINAL aspect: God shall vindicate EVERY AND EACH of the elect He has decreed to justify, and Christ has died for their legal justification and whom the Spirit has applied the same for their vital and personal justification. "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The GRAND BASIS of this final VINDICATION is : inherit the kingdom prepared for you from before the foundation of the world; GRACE - GRACE - GRACE.
Let's apply all these to Abraham:
Abraham lived before Christ had executed and
accomplished redemption. So Christ's righteousness was applied TO HIM
PERSONALLY by God based on the redemptive work that Christ would accomplish.
God has faith in His Son doing so.
Christ's righteousness was APPLIED to Abraham personally when he was an ungodly, idolatrous man in Ur, dead in trespasses and sin, without strength, etc., etc., This happened when God, by His free and sovereign grace, called Abraham out of his state of sin and death to grace and eternal salvation. Because of that free and gracious and sovereign act of God, Abraham was a changed man; his works of obedience in Gen 12-14 are the CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE of his justified state.
The full and complete righteousness of Christ was applied to Abraham personally, once-for-all, unrepeatable, and cannot be improved upon. With the righteousness of Christ applied personally, Abraham is clothed with the righteousness of Christ and stands COMPLETELY and ETERNALLY righteous before God.
Gen 15 records the INITIAL EXPERIENCE of Abraham concerning his justified state before God by His free grace and mercy. He has never experienced the blessedness of his justified state before the event recorded in Gen 15:1-6. It was at this event that it is recorded that his faith was accounted to him. Never before in Gen 12-14 do we read that his faith was accounted to him personally to EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to him when he was still an ungodly man in Ur.
This EXPERIENTIAL aspect is repeatable and ongoing throughout life. It begins with INITIAL faith in the promised Seed, even the blessed Lord Jesus Christ. Ongoing faith in Christ Jesus is accounted to us to experience this blessedness of our justified state by God's free grace through the imputed righteousness of Christ.
Our LEGAL justification - both secured at the
cross and applied to us at effectual calling - is OBVIOUSLY by God's grace
alone through Christ's righteousness alone... and NOT - NOT - NOT by our faith
in Christ alone. Until the justification is applied to us personally, we were
under the condemnation of death, dead in sin, and an alien.
It is our EXPERIENTIAL justification that is
by our faith in Christ alone... VERY SIMPLY because it is faith in Christ
alone, and never our works, that is accounted to us to personally experience the blessedness of our justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.
> 3) If you are saying that the elect is
justified at the cross, then are you also saying that the state of condemnation
of all the elect is lifted at the cross.
Again your 'if.. then...' logic betrays
confusion and failure to distinguish the different aspects of justification.
Legal Justification of all the elect took place at the cross: that is the ONLY time when double imputation actually took place: all the sins of all the elect were imputed to Christ at the cross, and the righteousness of Christ was imputed to all the elect. This is purely a legal transaction. What is legally transacted is applied to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.
Yes, I am saying that LEGALLY, that condemnation that came upon ALL the elect because of Adam's transgression is lifted at the cross. But UNTIL the righteousness of Christ - that lifted that legal condemnation and secured legal justification - is applied PERSONALLY at the effectual call of each elect at God's appointed and approved time, the elect is still dead in sin, a child of wrath, in enmity against God, etc...
Legal justification is applied to each elect personally at effectual calling out of sin and death to grace and salvation. Only when the legal justification has been applied personally, an elect is able to exercise faith, i.e. to receive and rest in Christ through the gospel call... thus experiences justification.
Tom: The puritans wrote about Virtual, Actual
and Declarative Justification. The first is at the cross, the second by faith
and the third by faith and works. (I think I have represented that somewhat
correctly!!). I find that to be a helpful way of understanding the whole
doctrine of justification.
You are nearer to the truth now that you have recognised and acknowledged the various aspects of justification. However, I doubt you have represented them correctly. If you have understood them, you would not have those difficulties expressed in your 'if... then...' type of logic in your rhetorical questions.
Whatever terms people use, let them define the term they use. Different terms by different people may actually be stating the same truths and principles. [Similarly, the same terms by different people may be used to denote different things.]
The legal aspect is at the cross - by the faith OF Christ alone, all the elect are LEGALLY justified, double imputation having taken place at the cross. Maybe this is virtual...
The applied/personal aspect is at the
effectual call - by grace alone, freely.
- What is legal is now applied to each
elect personally - obviously by God's free alone. In applying Christ's
righteousness to an elect personally, God declares an elect PERSONALLY
righteous. Maybe this is Actual (Vital/Personal), the person is not just
legally, but Vitally (Personally) justified. [But this took place when an elect
is in the state of sin and death – incapable of believing.]
The experiential/practical aspect is at initial conversion - by faith IN Christ alone. Faith in Christ is Declarative of the justified state of an elect by free grace. Faith in Christ is always accompanied by all other saving graces. Works and faith declare evidentially, i.e. works and faith justify evidentially that the person is indeed a true child of God.
Thank you for your interest and patience.
Some things need repetition, so please do pardon.
sing
"And some believed the things which were
spoken, and some believed not" Acts 28:24
