The kinky one is an illusion, a figment of man's imagination.
Justification before God is NOT by faith, therefore much less by faith alone.
Justification is based solely on the righteousness of Christ alone.
This righteousness is applied to a condemned man by the free grace of God alone,
i.e. without the condemned meeting any condition.
Faith is indeed the ALONE instrument to experience the blessedness...
of one's justified state by the free grace of God.
The blessedness of one's justification by God's free grace
can ONLY be experienced through faith ALONE in the Lord Jesus Christ,
THAT IS, experiential justification is by faith alone.
Few rightly divide the word of truth.
=====
Justification is based solely on the righteousness of Christ alone.
This righteousness is applied to a condemned man by the free grace of God alone,
i.e. without the condemned meeting any condition.
Faith is indeed the ALONE instrument to experience the blessedness...
of one's justified state by the free grace of God.
The blessedness of one's justification by God's free grace
can ONLY be experienced through faith ALONE in the Lord Jesus Christ,
THAT IS, experiential justification is by faith alone.
Few rightly divide the word of truth.
=====
Wiebe posted this popular slogan known as 'The 5 Solas'.
"Scripture alone is the standard, by Christ alone are we saved, salvation is by grace alone, justification by faith alone, for the glory of God alone! ~5 solas.
The following exchanges took place"
McCall
Amen!
Berge
Amen! on that was the reformation built!
Sing F Lau
May I ask a simple question?
Was Abraham justified by God in Gen 12-14?
If he wasn't justified, then he would still be under the condemnation of sin and death, wouldn't he?
Please tell, when was Abraham justified by God?
And please tell, when was Abraham justified by his faith? Please remember that in justification by God, there is imputation and impartation of righteousness to the condemned that was justified. In the justification by faith, there is NO imputation or impartation of Christ's righteousness. There is imputation of the believer's act of believing unto the believing one to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace.
The sola of the 'justification by faith alone' - what kind of justification is meant - is it legal justification by God's free grace or is it experiential justification by faith?
Is the justification by God and freely by His grace, and the justification conditioned upon man's believing one and the same justification?
Please give me one passage of Scriptures that says justification (that involves the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the one to be justified) is by faith, man's act of believing.
Think a bit please. And no 'reformed' shibboleth please, thank
Wiebe
How about some scripture, Sing? this should answer your question of when was Abraham justified.
Romans 4:9-16
9 Is this blessing then upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say, "Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Grega
Romans 4 was the passage I first thought of as well. I like the easy questions. And no one even had to include a 'reformed' shibboleth'.
Brown
Our justification is in the person and work of Jesus Christ the object of ones faith. One does not have faith in their justification nor faith in thier faith.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Just a thought, Gill commentary is fairly actuate:
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Rom 4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it; and so we come to have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The apostle having set the doctrine of justification in a clear light, and fully proved that it is not by the works of men, but by the righteousness of God; and having mentioned the several causes of it, proceeds to consider its effects, among which, peace with God stands in the first place; and is so called, to distinguish it from peace with men, which persons, though justified by faith in Christ's righteousness, may not have; but are sure, having a sense of this, to find peace with God, even with him against whom they have sinned, whose law they have transgressed, and whose justice they have affronted; reconciliation for sin being made, and a justifying righteousness brought in, and this imputed and applied to them, they have that "peace of God", that tranquillity and serenity of mind, the same with "peace with God" here, "which passes all understanding", Phi_4:7; and is better experienced than expressed: and this is all through our Lord Jesus Christ; it springs from his atoning sacrifice, and precious blood, by which he has made peace; and is communicated through the imputation of his righteousness, and the application of his blood; and is only felt and enjoyed in a way of believing, by looking to him as the Lord our righteousness.
Sing F Lau
Elmer, Scriptures ALONE is the way. Amen.
So, according to your understanding of the Scriptures quoted, Abraham was justified by God at Gen 15:1-6, and therefore he was an UN-JUSTIFIED man before that? Are you saying this?
Then you MUST necessarily concluded that Abraham was an UN-JUSTIFIED man, STILL in his native state of condemnation and death EVEN in Gen12-14? Yes or no?
Now a man is either still under the condemnation of death (the state he is in by nature) OR he is a justified by God, through the imputation of Christ's righteousness to him. Do we agree?
Let me remind ourselves some basics:
Condemnation and Death came by sins. EVEN SO
Justification and Life must come by righteousness - either your own or that of a substitute.
'No righteousness, no justification or life' is the Bible's teaching. Righteousness is the ONE and ONLY indispensable requirement for justification and life, the 'justification of life' in the passage below.
" 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
But so many 'reformed' as well as the 'arminians' bring man's faith into the equation of their legal justification by God.
Both believe the devil's lie - that their faith has any instrumental role in their before God.
Faith is the result of justification by God; a fruit and effect of justification can't possibly be the instrumental cause of the same justification. Your rule of non-contradiction applies here as well.
It is 'the just shall live by faith' - it is only the justified that shall live by faith. BUT so many, calvinists as well as arminians, believe, 'the condemned, by their faith, shall be justified by God, and live'! What is perverse twisting!
Faith is fruit and evidence of a justified state by God's free grace. Faith is the instrument to evidence the justification that has taken place!
Abraham was justified by God in the Ur of the Chaldeans when God's effectually called him out of the state of sin and death, to righteousness and life. All of Abraham's life in Gen 12-14 shows that of a justified man walking humbly before God.
And you said he was NOT not justified by God until Gen 15:1-6. There was NO imputation of righteousness, which is at the heart of justification before God, in Gen 15. There is imputation of Abraham's act of faith to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace.
The two are world apart.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE.
Belgium
AMEN ! (to the 5 solas)
Grega
Sing wrote: "I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE. "
You would do well to heed your own advice. In the Romans 4 passage the apostle Paul is contrasting justification by the works of the law with justification by faith. Your long post above does not even mention the law one time. You have absolutely no Scriptural basis for what you're saying because you've gone outside of Scriptural parameters to define your own view. You said "Distinction is the essence of sound theology". Your view is so distinct it's not even in the Bible.
Dekker
Faith is not the result of justification by God. It is the result of regeneration. Ephesains 2:8 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Justification comes when we exercise this gift. This is the biblical position which is why it is also the reformed position.
Hartman
Paul told Timothy, "...charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and [aimless] genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the [goal] of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm." (1Tim.1:3-7).
Difficulty lies in that the vain janglers always seem to think that the jangling is coming from someone else-- too proud and too blind to even entertain the thought that they themselves might be erring [1Cor.2:7-16].
---------------------------------
Re: the OT saints, the question of "when?" is misplaced. E.g., when was the Lamb of God slain? "...from the foundation of the world." (Rev.8). Why, then was Jesus born and why did He have to die? "That the Scripture might be fulfilled." This was the implementation of the foreordained truth. (Luke 24:25-27).
So it is with those things that were predestined to befall God's people through the ages. As Heb.11 tells us, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. <
Paul beseeches us to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye bare called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ." (Eph.4:1-7).
Wiebe
Scripture must interpret Scripture especially if it is a subject explained in another portion of it.
yes, Genesis 15:6 answers Abraham's justification. Abraham received the same Adamic nature that you and I did and therefore had the wrath of God abiding on him until he was declared righteous. John 3:36; Romans 5:9 and Ephesians 2:3
while I am not sure who would legitimately use "man's faith" for justification. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear that "faith" is a gift of God, not of man.
once again, I am not sure who is saying the following
BUT so many, calvinists as well as arminians, believe, 'the condemned, by their faith, shall be justified by God, and live'! What is perverse twisting!
I am not sure what you are saying in your following comments. please explain "And you said he was NOT not justified by God until Gen 15:1-6. There was NO imputation of righteousness, which is at the heart of justification before God, in Gen 15. There is imputation of Abraham's act of faith to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace."
Sing F Lau
Grega@You would do well to heed your own advice. In the Romans 4 passage the apostle Paul is contrasting justification by the works of the law with justification by faith. Your long post above does not even mention the law one time.
===========
I hope you are aware that there are SEVERAL aspects of justifications. Read WCF 11.4 for a start - decretal, legal, vital/personal, experiential/evidential. (the same is found in the quote from John Gill above)
In legal justification, the contrast is between the righteousness of a condemned criminal or the substitute righteousness of someone else. Faith, man's act of believing play no role in his justification before God. "Being justified FREELY by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." FREELY cannot be conditioned on faith at the same time. FREELY is FREELY, independent of everything in, and of man.
In experiential justification, the contrast is between a child of God observing ceremonial law or a child of God believing in God's promise concerning the Messiah. Experiential justification is conditioned on faith in the promised Messiah.
Apostle Paul marshaled Abraham to demonstrate the latter. His experiential justification was long before the ceremonial law was ever instituted. That was the point of his demonstration. Therefore Abrahm's justification was without the observation of the ceremonial law, of which circumcision was one.
His experiential justification, conditioned on faith, took place in Gen 15:1-6.
His vital/personal justification, by the FREE grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, took place in the Us of the Chaldeans when God had called him out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
I hope you understand the above, otherwise we are not on the same page.
Wiebe
while it does not appear that he was, it may have been just before that, I am not 100% sure. Joshua gives a little history lesson in Terah and Abraham served other gods:
Joshua 24:2-3
2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, 'From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods. 3 'Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.
Sing F Lau
Elmer, yes, Genesis 15:6 answers Abraham's justification. Abraham received the same Adamic nature that you and I did and therefore had the wrath of God abiding on him until he was declared righteous. John 3:36; Romans 5:9 and Ephesians 2:3
============
Elmer, can I conclude that in your understanding, Abraham was an UNJUSTIFIED man, i.e. in his state of condemnation and death, which he was in by nature, prior to Gen 15:1-6? Are you saying that Abraham in Gen 12-14 was still an UNGODLY unjustified man, still the the state of condemnation and death?
Grega
Sing wrote: "I did say, no reformed shibboleth! No offence intended! Just a gentle reminder to stick to Scripture ALONE."
You preach to us to stick with the Scripture, and not to give the typical reformed response, and then you respond with the Westminster Confession of Faith??? Is this some kind of a joke?
Sing wrote: "I hope you understand the above, otherwise we are not on the same page".
I guess we're not on the same page. I just read what the apostle Paul wrote in his Epistle to the Romans and believe that. I don't need the WCF to define what the apostle Paul meant. What is it with you people who try to foster confusion among God's people by trying to set yourselves up as some kind of authority of Scripture? The true sheep of the Shepherd hear His voice. Yours makes a strange, incoherent sound.
Sing F Lau
Dekker@Faith is not the result of justification by God. It is the result of regeneration.
==========
Double error here. Take this correction to heart.
Faith is only possible because a man has been justified by God. It is the JUST (the justified ones) who are able to live by faith! An unjustified man, still under condemnation of death does not have faith, much less live by faith.
If faith is the fruit of regeneration, and justification is conditioned on faith, then you have this order: regeneration, faith, justification.
You are saying that regeneration, the giving of eternal life PRECEDES the removal of condemnation of death in justification. If you think that is a biblical truth, you can continue to keep it. No, the Father's work of justification in removing condemnation provides the divine warrant for the Spirit's work of regeneration in giving eternal life. Anything else is IMMORAL.
The common problem here is that you don't distinguish the legal justification which is by the free grace of God, and the experiential justification which is conditioned on faith. The former is God's free and sovereign act is removing condemnation through the imputation of Christ's righteousness. It is LEGAL justification applied to individual elect personally. The latter is conditioned on the faith of a child of God through the imputation of the believing act of God's child. Gen 15:1-6 is speaking of the latter. Very many are confused, and equate it with the former.
It was universally believed by the old school theologians that:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
Sing F Lau
Diane @ Justification comes when we exercise this gift. This is the biblical position which is why it is also the reformed position."
=====
Reformed position is stated here: WCF 11:4
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
ONLY after that they been justified personally FREELY (i.e. without the condition of faith!) by the grace of God - when the Holy Spirit has in due time actually apply Christ unto them (when they were in the state of death and condemnation, of course!) that they have the grace of faith worked in them to enable them to believe the gospel truth that is already true of them.
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7)" WCF 11:2.
Please note carefully the reformed position summarized here: faith is NOT alone in the person justified, faith is one of the saving grace found in a justified person, as mentioned in 11:4.
Faith is a fruit of the legal justification applied personally. This is distinct from the experiential justification by faith that follows!
Faith in Christ is the alone INSTRUMENT to experience and to evidence the justified state by the FREE grace of God.
Don't equate one's idea of 'reformed' as 'biblical' too quickly! Too many are already doing it. Don't add another one to the huge crowd
Sing F Lau
Grega@"You preach to us to stick with the Scripture, and not to give the typical reformed response, and then you respond with the Westminster Confession of Faith??? Is this some kind of a joke?"
=====
That's because some equate the two... so I try to show that what they think is the reformed position is not something I find in a reformed confession!
Yes, it is a big joke... everyone calling their idea reformed! It is trendy I think!
Wiebe
@ Sing I believe I have already answered your question so I am not sure why you have to rephrase the same question. let me know what your real question is and maybe then we can proceed from there. you need to articulate your point with much less words. imho
Grega
Sing, I think I know where you're coming from now. But I had to read your blog to find it out. I actually liked some of the things I read there. Don't come on so strong, next time. It's puts people on the defensive. even if what you're saying is worthy of consideration. You have to consider your motivation. Are you seeking to win others to your way of thinking, or are you seeking to win a debate, and condemn everyone who differs with you in the process? Too many people to the latter. You seem to be a person who can be above that sort of thing.
Sing F Lau
Wiebe, if, as so many insist that Abraham's justification BY - BY - BY God took place in Gen15:1-6, then one must necessarily conclude that Abraham was still an UN-JUSTIFIED man before that, i.e.still in his native state of condemnation and death.
Does that idea fit what we read of Abraham in Gen 12-14? That's the question.
Isn't there a massive theological blunder involved by saying that Gen 15:1-6 speak of Abraham justification by God? Oh yes, Gen 15:1-6 does speak of Abraham's justification by his faith!
Ungodly Abram justified by God through His free and sovereign grace is A WORLD APART from godly Abraham being justified by his faith... is it not?
SORRY, I failed to express things better. English is not my native language... I think with a Chinese mind, and express it in English!
An Englishman taught me, when there is contradiction, that exegesis is OFF, eisegesis is IN.
Sing F Lau
Grega, I am just attempting to show that there is a consistent way of understanding the Scriptures. So many aren't aware that their position necessarily involves contradictions and deficiencies while they pontificate about the reformed shibboleth with such presumptuous confidence!
No desire to debate at all... passed that stage already. Just prompting people to see that there is massive inconsistencies and contradictions in their supposed 'reformed' view. That's all.
Wiebe
Sing, who is suggesting that Abram was a godly man before God justified him by grace through faith? as I pointed out earlier, him and his father Terah were worshiping other gods.
Sing F Lau
Wiebe, read Gen 12-14 again, and tell us whether you see an UNGODLY man, still under his native state of condemnation and death, or whether you see an godly man walking with the Lord?
Please tell us, is Abraham in Gen 12-14 a justified man or is he not. It seems to me that you see Abraham as a UNGODLY man, still in his native state of condemnation and death - something so contrary to the plain and straight forward narrative in those three chapters! Do you see the point?
I am stating, and not suggesting, that Abram in Gen 12-14 is a godly man, having been LEGALLY justified by THE FREE GRACE OF GOD when God effectually called him out of his state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life. Faith is not involved here... it is FREELY - FREELY - FREELY by God's grace through the righteousness of Christ.
I am also stating that Gen 15:1-6 speaks of Abraham's EXPERIENTIAL justification by HIS FAITH. By his faith, he experienced the blessedness of his justified state that occurred long ago in the Ur of the Chaldeans when grace was FREELY - FREELY - FREELY first applied to Abram personally.
Legal Justification by the FREE GRACE of God, and the Experiential Justification by Abraham's faith are TWO VERY DIFFERENT aspects of justification.
The old school theologians kept this distinction so clearly... their children still do... their step children have not only lost it all, they repudiate it.
Grega
Sing, what's with the sarcastic grin thing? You talk some much about "experiential justification". How about some "experiential SANCTIFICATION'. It's too bad. You have some good points to make, but you're blowing it with your attitude.
Sing F Lau
Grega@ the grin is not sarcastic. It expresses something which is funny to me.
I have come across this common attitude many times, "I like what you said, but I don't like the way you say it." Instead of dealing with the issue under discussion, they get sidetracked with subjective feelings. Quite common.
Attitude problem indeed - got sidetracked by a 'grin' thing!
Sing F Lau
Brother Steve, thank you quoting Gill on Rom 5:1.
Did anyone read it carefully, and noticed that Gill, (very many 'refromed' folks HATE Gill... and slander him as hyper!) in common with the old school theologians of his period, ENUMERATED the FOUR DISTINCT aspects of justification:
- decretal justification of all elect before time.
- legal justification of all elect at the cross... See More
- vital/personal justification of individual elect at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life
- experiential justification as the effect.
I paste the initial part of the quote here: read and think over it:
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith,.... Not that faith is at the first of our justification; for that is a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity, and which passed on Christ, and on all the elect considered in him, when he rose from the dead; see Rom_4:25; nor is it the chief, or has it the chief place in justification; it is not the efficient cause of it, it is God that justifies, and not faith; it is not the moving cause of it, that is the free grace of God; it is not the matter of it, that is the righteousness of Christ: we are not justified by faith, either as God's work in us, for, as such, it is a part of sanctification; nor as our work or act, as exercised by us, for then we should be justified by works, by something of our own, and have whereof to glory; but we are justified by faith objectively and relatively, as that relates to the object Christ, and his righteousness; or as it is a means of our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it;
======
Notes:
- 'THE FIRST OF OUR JUSTIFICATION... a sentence which passed in the mind of God from all eternity.
- The JUSTIFICATION that took place through Christ, and ON - ON - ON all the elect considered in Him, WHEN He rose from the dead.
- The JUSTIFICATION that took place by the free grace of God as God's work -IN - IN - IN each individual elect.
- The JUSTIFICATION that took place by faith, faith as a means our knowledge, and perception of our justification by Christ's righteousness, and of our enjoying the comfort of it.
"
