Keep monergism and synergism distinct and separate.Otherwise the confusion 'zonkey' will inevitably show!
This quote was posted... and an exchange followed.
"This is the single issue that separates the supernatural religion of Christianity from the man-centered religions that surround us. Whether the work of salvation is perfectly accomplished by God for His own glory or is dependent upon man's cooperation and assistance is the watershed issue that separates Biblical Christianity from everything else." James White
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Sing F Lau
Men may mouth MONERGISM (i.e. salvation by free and sovereign grace alone) but they always inevitably end up with SYNERGISM because they are UNABLE or REFUSE to differentiate the ETERNAL salvation that is completely and wholly and solely by God's free and sovereign grace alone, and the temporal salvation (relation to the life here and now) that is conditioned upon the obedient response of God's children to the divine grace working, i.e. God's children, saved with eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace alone, must work out THEIR OWN salvation for the life here.
Sing F Lau
Eternal salvation is by free grace alone... that means NO CONDITION whatsoever for our eternal salvation. God saved us by His free and sovereign grace, then we are called to believe the truth of our salvation by grace. Only those that are saved are able to believe spiritual things... some believe more, others believe less.
Sing F Lau
Stephen@ "Christ died for all sin, but not all men are saved for their rejection of Him."
If Christ died for all sin, then all sin of all men have been atoned for, payment for all sin of all men has been made. Is this what you are saying?
Their rejection of Him is because they are not among those for whom He died. They are not among the sheep, and Christ did not die for them. "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."
Jesus gave His life for the sheep ONLY, and none others. God the Father gave sheep to Jesus Christ... but they were LOST sheep... and Jesus came to seek and save the sheep ONLY... He lay down His life for the sheep.
Sing F Lau
Do you mean by 'the whole world' as embracing every man of the world exhaustively, OR all sort of men distributively, i.e, not just the Jews, but men and women of every nation, tongue, tribe and people?
If Christ did die for all the sins of all men, then on what basis were those in hell find themselves there? Was it just that they find themselves... there? Was it their sin of unbelief? If it is, then Christ did not die for their sin of unbelief... then Christ did not die for ALL the sin of ALL men! If Christ did die for their sin of unbelief, then why are they still condemned for that sin? Isn't it utter immoral and injustice to demand for double payment of a crime? Let us be careful lest God's name be maligned!
Wiebe
@ Stephen. would you say that the one that becomes a Christian does it through a process of human choice and in cooperation with God with acceptance, completing the salvation gift? the one rejecting would be lost by their own choice?
Sing F Lau
Elmer@ "would you say that the one that becomes a Christian does it through a process of human choice and in cooperation with God with acceptance, completing the salvation gift? the one rejecting would be lost by their own choice?"
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There is a salvation that is entirely by God's free grace on the one hand... MONERGISTIC i.e... . purposed by God, accomplished by Christ, and applied to each individual elect in his state of death and condemnation... thus turning a condemned dead alien into a justified, regenerated and adopted son, indwelt by the Spirit of God, completely fitting him for eternal glory. His ETERNAL SALVATION is complete, ALL by God's free grace. This child of God, destined for eternal glory needs to be saved by the gospel ministry. But the gospel ministry deal with timely or temporal salvation... salvation pertaining to the life here and now. The gospel ministry saves a child of God from ignorance, lies and untruth, warns and weans him from worldliness, trains him in righteousness, etc... all having NOTHING to do with ETERNAL SALVATION.
And it seems there is ANOTHER way of salvation proposed above by Elmer: a salvation that is SYNERGISTIC... 'through a process of human choice and in cooperation with God with acceptance, completing the salvation gift." This salvation requires the ACTIVE participation of man TO COMPLETE.
If Elmer is speaking of the timely or temporal salvation, then he would be right. In the timely or temporal salvation, God's children (and they become God's children all by the free grace of God) must WORK OUT THEIR OWN SALVATION with FEAR and trembling.
The ETERNAL SALVATION is entirely by the free and sovereign will of God. This is pure MONERGISM.
The TEMPORAL SALVATION is by the obedient responses of God's children to the commands of God to them. This is real SYNERGISM.
There must be a clear and sharp distinction between the two... else there will be confusion.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology. Paul reminded Timothy "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Harvell Jr
I do believe Sing F Lau that Elmer would hold to what Reformed Theology believes concerning monergism and synergism. This is how Reformed distinguishes between the two:
The Reformed faith teaches that the initial first step or the act that causes a sinner to come from death unto life is God's resurrecting power. In other words regeneration is ... monergistic. It is an alone working of God, whereby he works alone to bring the sinner from death to life. But after the sinner is regenerated or made alive, then the life the believer lives is a synergistic work. The sinner works with God in working out his salvation with fear and trembling.
Wiebe
@ Sing it seems my question of the way of salvation was not understood the way I intended it to be. Make no mistake, I testify to the synergistic work of God in my regeneration. the Glory goes to Him alone!
I proposed it because most people including myself learn more by asking questions. it is not about me, but about the Truth.
the Bible does NOT violate the law of non-contradiction so my question to you, Sing. how can salvation be temporal and eternal? I am not sure how 2 Timothy 2:15 answers your assertion. is this splitting hairs? this is something new to me.
Wiebe
thanks Hershel for coming to my defense clarifying the I am reformed in my soteriology in that God is the one who regenerates His sheep as His Elect as His vessels of honor via the Potter's redemptive hand.
Sing F Lau
Elmer@ "the Bible does... NOT violate the law of non-contradiction so my question to you, Sing. how can salvation be temporal and eternal? I am not sure how 2 Timothy 2:15 answers your assertion. is this splitting hairs? this is something new to me."
The ancients have used adjectives 'eternal' and 'temporal' with regard to ... salvation, to clearly distinguish the distinction between the two. They are two distinct entity. They understood the Scriptures more completely than many of us today.
Eternal salvation is God's monergistic work of saving His elect from their just and deserved eternal condemnation. These deals with eternal realities. This deals solely with their eternal well being. This aspect of salvation is absolutely and exactly the same for every child of God - all equally justified, regenerated, adopted, and glorified. In all these, God's elect are absolutely PASSIVE... i.e. no synergism involved at all.
Temporal salvation is the synergistic work of God's children, in cooperation with, and response to the work of the Spirit within them, to save themselves from this perverse and wicked generation. This deals with their well being in their temporal life here and now on earth. In temporal salvation, there is a WIDE range and degree... conditioned upon the obedient response of each child of God in working out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling!
Sing F Lau
Elmer, is there any typo in this declarative statement of yours? - "I testify to the SYNERGISTIC [emphasis mine] work of God in my regeneration. the Glory goes to Him alone!"
What role did your play in your regeneration - since you see it as synergistic? Trying to understand you!
Sing F Lau
Elmer@ "the Bible does violate the law of non-contradiction so my question to you, Sing. how can salvation be temporal and eternal? I am not sure how 2 Timothy 2:15 answers your assertion. is this splitting hairs? this is something new to me."
NO law of non-contradiction is violated at all. This is because we are NOT saying that ONE salvation is BOTH eternal and temporal. If that is the case, then it is indeed irrational and nonsensical. A cannot be non-A at the same time.
However we are speaking of two distinct salvation, just as the Bible presents so clearly - one that is purposed, accomplished and applied to them personally by free and sovereign grace alone, and one that God's children must be actively involved to work it out from themselves.
There is a salvation which the Lord God Himself has worked out for us... He himself purposed it, accomplished it, and effectively applied it to individual elect, fitting him for eternal glory, without him meeting any condition!
Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." In all these, the objects are absolutely passive.
The salvation which the Lord MONERGISTICALLY purposed, accomplished and effectually applied to each individual is TOTALLY distinct and separate from the salvation which God's children are commanded to work out for themselves. "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out YOUR WON SALVATION with fear and trembling."
Another passage, Pastor Timothy must work out his own salvation, and that of those under his charge... "Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both SAVE THYSELF, and them that hear thee."
The (temporal) salvation that involves the active work and obedience of God's children is very different from the (eternal) salvation that God alone, by His own power, purposed, accomplished, and applied to each elect individually by His free and sovereign grace.
I hope I make some sense.
Wiebe
@ Saul too much multi-tasking on my part. I am sorry, Sing. thanks for pointing that out, brother. I saw what I posted and yes it is a typo (misspeak). one of the things of getting older. My apologies everyone. I got my mix talked up. :(
Wiebe
this 2 salvation type theory still troubles me, though. while our state in heaven will be different in heaven as glorified bodies than here on earth, but to compare them as two different salvations suggests in-continuity between the two. we are God's workmanship start to finish, Author and Perfecter. we are not the author and perfecter of our faith, faith is a divine gift!
Harvell Jr
The idea of concurrence or confluence whereby two personages work together towards the same goal would still apply after we are regenerated. God begins a work in us to bring us to an ordained decreed end of perfection. Hence the scripture states Work out your own salvation withj fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will ... and to do of his good pleasure. Therefore I would not make to broad of a distinction(if I made one at all) between temporal and eternal. The salvation that we enjoy in this life is the result of the same decree given by the Father when he chose us before the foundations of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ.
Sing F Lau
Hershel@ 'The salvation that we enjoy in this life is the result of the SAME DECREE given by the Father when he chose us before the foundations of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ."
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If that is indeed true, then we should expect EVERY ELECT to experience and enjoy the same salvation in this life... which is no true at all. There are Lots, and there are Abrahams; there are Paul who fought a good fight of faith, nd there are those who made a shipwreck of their faith!
There are God's children who enjoy and experience great measure and degree of temporal salvation in this life. Others experience very little... some do not even have the Holy Scriptures in their own language. Some enjoy faithful gospel ministry and biblical church fellowship... others virtually nil.
Are these vast differences in this life ALL ordained and decreed before the foundation of the world?
Some of God's children died without hearing the true gospel! They have been told half-truth and lies all their life! These do not enjoy the temporal salvation of hearing the true gospel? Are these decreed by God also?
Men may mouth MONERGISM but they always inevitably end up with SYNERGISM because they are UNABLE and REFUSE to differentiate the ETERNAL salvation that is completely and wholly and solely by God's free and sovereign grace, and the temporal (relation to the life here and now) salvation that conditioned upon the response of God's children to the divine grace working in them.
God's children working out THEIR OWN SALVATION is obviously different from the salvation that is worked out and applied by the free and sovereign grace the Lord's ALONE!
That which is divinely decreed would necessarily be true of every child of God in the same nature and degree... eternal blessings such as justification, regeneration, eternal life, adoption, the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell within the heart, and glorification...
The temporal salvation a child of God will experience in this life is LARGELY conditioned upon his obedience to the will of the Father...
One is wholly MONERGISTIC, God ALONE is wholly active.
The other is wholly SYNERGISTIC, God's children actively working through the grace working in them.
Without distinguishing them clearly, salvation by grace ALONE is necessarily and inevitably adulterated and contaminated by man's part, and thus repudiated!
What is the point of shouting Grace ALONE so loud, when it is note alone at all?
It is still monergistic even though it requires man's active role in it! Harvell Jr
Sing F Lau you are mixing up God's common grace with Special saving grace. One may not have the Bible written in their own language yet they had to have heard the word in their own language or they would not be children of God, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. All of God's elect, all of those who are born again and have ... come from death to life, enjoy the same salvation my friend. They all may not enjoy the same common grace such as you are speaking, but all enjoy the same salvation. God has not called us to a life of ease and relaxation. He has not called us to a life of making this world our home. All of God's elect have received the inward work of regeration and therefore take joy in what they will experience in the world to come and they all confess that they are strangers and pilgrims in this world. Yet not all have the same living conditions in this world nor the same amount of persecution. I want to add that you stated that some of God's children have had only have truths, yet they had to have had enough truth to save them or they would not be God's children. I also will add that ungodly men most of the time have more temporal blessings than the elect, yet are not saved. This my friend is common grace given to all men, but only saving grace is given to the elect. Do not confuse temporal blessings with spiritual blessings. All of God's redeemed elect have been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son and are seated in the heavenly with Christ and have been blessed with spiritual blessings in the heavenlies in Christ.
Harvell Jr
Another point bugs me whereby you state that some of God's children have died not hearing the true gospel. My friend if this is the case then they were never God's children. One must hear in order to be saved.
I also want to reaffirm that you have totally confused natural blessings with spiritual ones. You have not been exposed to the word of faith movement have you?
Sing F Lau
Hershel@ you are mixing up God's common grace with Special saving grace.
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I read of NO - NO - NO grace that is common, and NO - NO - NO grace that is apart from and outside of, Jesus Christ. And grace in Jesus Christ is very specific and non-common.
Sir, you are confusing God's work of providence as Creator, and God's work of redemption as Redeemer. God the Creator is benevolent to His creatures - whether elect or not. God the Redeemer is gracious to His elect alone... through His Son Jesus Christ alone.
Sing F Lau
Hershel @ 'Another point bugs me whereby you state that some of God's children have died not hearing the true gospel. My friend if this is the case then they were never God's children. One must hear in order to be saved."
Sir, one must first be saved by God with ETERNAL salvation before he can ever hear to be saved from lies and errors, ... and be brought to know the truth of his eternal salvation ENTIRELY by God's free grace, and be taught to live godly, soberly and righteously... thus saving him from the evils and wickedness of this perverse generation.
One must FIRST be a made a child of God, all by the free and sovereign grace of God, BEFORE he can hear and receive the things of the Spirit... to save him from hell here on earth.
"Except a man be born again... except a man be given eternal salvation... HE CANNOT... CANNOT... CANNOT..." Do people take the declaration of Jesus Christ seriously?
I said before... though many shout MONERGISM, so much they say BETRAY that they are full of SYNERGISM!
God's children among the Arminians lived and died without hearing the true gospel. Perhaps you would accept Arminianism as teaching the true gospel. Of course many so called 'reformed' people would deny that Arminians are true children of God!
Why do people declare from one side of their mouth that salvation is entirely by the free and sovereign grace of God, and in the same breath from the other side of their one same mouth insist that this SAME salvation is conditioned on so many things... preaching of the gospel, hearing the true gospel, believing the right doctrines, etc?
If the clear and obvious distinction between the CAUSE of the eternal salvation is MONERGISTIC, and the effect and manifestation of that salvation is SYNERGISTIC, then all the confusion and contradiction disappeared!
Sing F Lau
Hershel@ "I also want to reaffirm that you have totally confused natural blessings with spiritual ones."
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Would you classify that salvation that you have to work out for yourself with fear and trembling as natural blessing? Or are they spiritual blessings? I have said they are spiritual blessings.
I think you are confused as well as mistaken! I am talking about SPIRITUAL blessings... spiritual blessings that are ETERNAL in nature (i.e. that pertain unto eternity) secured for us by the free and sovereign grace of God, and spiritual blessings that are temporal in nature (i.e. that pertains to this brief life on earth only) that are worked out for ourselves through the grace of God working in us.
The former are eternal blessings by divine MONERGISM.
The latter are temporal blessing by SYNERGISM of human working in obedient to God's grace in them.
Hartman
The reason our working "out" of our salvation is monergistic and not synergistic is that it is the work of God in us, based upon the completed work of Christ, by which salvation was worked "in" to us.
Jesus said that apart from Him we can do nothing, but we are to abide in Him as branches of a vine. The branches exert no self-effort, and all the fruit is produced by the vine, through the branches.
Sing F Lau
Hmmmm, your working out your own salvation - is that salvation part of the same salvation that Christ has worked out for you?
The way you put it, monergism and synergism become synonymous, and the stark distinction between ceases. There is no more difference between the two!
We are put in union with Christ through the free and sovereign grace of God in the effectual calling out of our state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation - all monergistically, without any aid or help from us.
As God's children (by His free and sovereign grace alone), if we abide in Christ in our discipleship, we are able to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. God's children who do not abide in Christ make shipwreck of their faith... like Lot messing up his life big time!
Our working out our own salvation, which is temporal in nature, is CONDITIONED upon our abiding in Christ. God's Spirit works in us to will and to do... but we are the ones who must DO and ACT, in obedient to the Father's will, to work out our own salvation... to save us from this crooked generation... not to save us from eternal condemnation. God alone has done that for His elect through Christ and His Spirit.
Working out our own salvation has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with delivering ourselves from eternal condemnation or securing for ourselves eternal salvation. That work of ETERNAL redemption is ABSOLUTELY by the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE, PLUS nothing.
Harvell Jr
Evidently you have never studied theology because Yes yes yes theologians distinguish between common grace and special saving grace The bible declares that God is good to all and his tender mercies are over all his works Psalms 145:9 and God blessed Ishmael and Esau with the natural things of life but only special grace was given to Isaac and Jacob.
Harvell Jr
I believe that I was accused of confusing natural blessings with spiritual blessings though I did accuse Sing F Lau of this about 3 post ago because Sing keeps arguing from the temporal to the spiritual and vis a versus. This much said I will reiterate that the same salvation of which I have a dear brother in Korea also possesses though our spiritual growth is not the same and our calling of where to grow in grace is not the same. I also reaffirm that ones initial regeneration is an act of God alone and that after we are born again we do work with God. Our salvation after we come to life is synergistic. The work we do after this is done in cooperation with God. Paul did not write his epistles to dead men, but to those who were brought out of death, therefore we cannot state that salvation is completely monergistic after the initial first working of God.
Sing F Lau
Harvell@ "Sing keeps arguing from the temporal to the spiritual and vis a versus."
Hello, you are very confused, and perhaps obtuse, too. Temporal is contrasted with eternal; and natural with spiritual. I didn't argue from temporal to spiritual... that's your imagination. I am distinguishing spiritual blessings that are ETERNAL from spiritual blessing that are TEMPORAL. Do you get the simple point?
Sing F Lau
Hershel@ "Our salvation after we come to life is synergistic. The work we do after this is done in cooperation with God. Paul did not write his epistles to dead men, but to those who were brought out of death, therefore we cannot state that salvation is completely monergistic after the initial first working of God"
You have used both adjectives - 'synergistic' and 'monergistic'. Well done! Can you now tell us exactly which part of salvation is synergistic and which part is monergistic? And how do you distinguish the two?
Can the one and the same salvation be at the same time monergistic as well as synergistic?
Or that which is monergistic and that which is synergistic are distinct and separate because one deals with eternal issues, and the other deal with temporal issues (things pertaining to this life only)?
And don't forget Elmer's reminder on the law of non-contradiction.
Harvell Jr
To James Gaylon: I understand that we were discussing whether Stephen needed to repent about not believing what Christ said. But he gave the challenge that he would repent if I could prove that the Bible teaches that he must believe in Calvinism. But here he is building a straw man and tearing it down. No Calvinist teaches this, but instead teaches... that one must believe in Christ, yet I told him that if I could give a scripture showing that Christ said his sacrifice was limited then he needs to repent for not believing what Christ said. I gave 3 scriptures of which he has yet to answer. I will also state that the Hebrews writer also gives a warning concerning Christ sacrifice of those who would trodden under foot the Son of God and count his blood as an unholy thing. The Greek word for unholy can be translated common. They trodden under foot the Son of God by counting the blood of the covenant as something that is common to all. Hebrews 10:29
Sing F Lau
Hershel @ " I will also state that the Hebrews writer also gives a warning concerning Christ sacrifice of those who would trodden under foot the Son of God and count his blood as an unholy thing. "
The book of Hebrews was written to God's children among the Jews, Hebrew believers in Jesus Christ. These were in danger of reverting back to the old covenant ways of worship... with all its sacrifices.
The author is warning these CHILDREN of God who are believers in Jesus Christ that to revert back to those old covenant sacrifices is equivalent to trampling underfoot and despising the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And this evil has grave judgment here and now to them... It has NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation/condemnation That's a done thing, all by God's free and sovereign grace. It is about temporal condemnation.
" 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"
The punishment spoken here is God chastising His children for unbelief! Verse 27 speaks of the fiery destruction in 70AD!
Their eternal salvation is solely and completely by God's free and sovereign grace alone, absolutely independent of what they can or unable to do. Their obedience or disobedience will affect their temporal salvation... which they have to work out for themselves
Tilton
You both might be saying the same, yet maybe a little differently. I desire to radically work out my salvation because He started His work in me, which is a result of His perfect work at Calvary. He started the work and is working, that's why I work. I must be involved in the sanctification process. If I'm not, I could end up like Lot. Thanks for that comment about Lot, Sing! There are other examples of those who are truly Christ's, yet could end up like Lot for not working out their salvation. One example is David, who lived in his sin without confessing and repenting for quite awhile until Nathan came to him. Part of what happens in believers we know is clearly seen from God's side and not ours. I just know, I wouldn't be working out my salvation if it wasn't for His working in me, yet now with that knowledge, I better be radically working it out!
Sing F Lau
Tilton@ "Thanks for that comment about Lot, Sing! There are other examples of those who are truly Christ's, yet could end up like Lot for not working out their salvation."
May I ask, those who failed to work out their own salvation and ended up like Lot, is their eternal salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God any less than that of Abraham and Paul? Is the vast difference between the temporal salvation of Abraham and Lot attributed to God, or chiefly attributed the them, their negligence or vigilance in working out their own salvation?
Hartman
Richard, I think you've hit the nail on the head!
Sing has elaborated my point in a much clearer presentation than my brief statement made. The difference between us, as I see it, is a misunderstanding of terminology:
The salvation that is worked FOR us by Christ is also worked IN to us by God, to be worked OUT by us IN and By the power of God ... which works IN us to will and to do His good pleasure.
It is NOT synergy, for synergy is a partnership (a co-operation of elements which each depend upon the other's support). We are WHOLLY dependent upon God (unable in ourselves to do anything), whereas God needs nothing from us in order to achieve His ends.
Often the barrier to understanding one another owes as much to the way one listens as to the way the other speaks.
Sing F Lau
If God's children have to work out their own salvation, then they play an active role in the accomplishment of this salvation, do they not? They don't meet the condition, they don't get the salvation. And you still insist that that salvation is still monergistic, and not synergistic! Words have lost all its meaning.
Monergistic salvation is one ... which is completely dependent upon God's free and sovereign acts alone, absolutely independent of anything in, and of man.
A salvation that is conditioned upon God's children obedient responses to the grace working in them INVOLVES their ACTIVE and CONSCIOUS role. This salvation that requires the active role of God's children can only be temporal salvation... to do with their WELL BEING here and now. It has NOTHING to do with their BEING, children of God completely fitted for eternal glory by God's free and sovereign grace alone.
If you insist that this is still MONERGISTIC salvation, then reasonable communication has broken down.
To so many, monergistic is also synergistic, and synergistic is also monergistic!
They have become synonymous because they can't and refuse to recognize the biblical distinction between monergistic salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and synergistic salvation by the active obedient response to the grace of God working in them.
Hartman
Brother Sing, monergism and synergism ARE distinctly different. You speak well, Brother, but you do not listen well. It would seem that you are so convinced you are right that you can hear nothing but your own voice. I mean no insult or disrespect in saying this, but I have spoken plainly and you respond as if I had not spoken at all. You are ... reading my comments eisegetically, assigning to my words meanings I do not intend, but you are not exegeting the meaning of what I say.
As monergism differs from synergism, so dialogue differs from monologue.
I ask you to objectively and prayerfully review my comments before responding again: ask God for wisdom to learn more than you presently know-- to stop growing is a living death.
Salvation is of [from] the Lord; not some salvation or a certain kind of salvation. The works that we perform in the flesh we are enabled to do by the grace of God given to us in Christ. To say that God needs our help to deliver us in this world is to deny His omnipotence and sovereignty.
Peace, Brother-- rest well. It is time here for sleep.
Wiebe
well said about the barrier of communication, Al. we have all been down that road a time or two.
Sing F Lau
Brother Hartman, I could also say the same of you! But it won't help in the discussion.
If there is ONLY ONE salvation, then it must be implied that the salvation of the Lord that was purposed, accomplished and worked in and applied to each of His children is quite different indeed.
The fact of this vast difference is plain and obvious to... See More all. There are Lots and there are Abraham, there are Paul who fought a good fight of faith, and there those who make shipwreck of their faith... YET they are equally saved with ETERNAL salvation by God's free and sovereign... though in temporal salvation, they were saved to vastly different degree.
But the eternal salvation from the Lord is exactly the same for each of his elect - see Rom 8:29-30.
However the temporal salvation of God experienced by each child of God varies VASTLY because this salvation is CONDITIONED upon God's children working SYNERGISTICALLY with the grace of God working in them. There is a direct HUMAN factor in it - thus synergistic.
The vast difference in the temporal salvation CANNOT be attributed to God working differently in each of His children. It must be attributed to the difference in the response of each child of God to the same grace working in them; the different degree to which God's children shoulder their responsibility in working out their OWN salvation.
You said, "To say that God needs our help to deliver us in this world is to deny His omnipotence and sovereignty."
To deny that temporal salvation is dependent and conditioned upon the conscious obedience of God children to His will for them is to deny and repudiate true human responsibility altogether.
No, God's does not need our help to deliver us in this world. He does not even ask for our help in order for Him to help us. The fact is, He commanded us to work out our own salvation. He DOES NOT do it for us. His children must do it themselves... and do it with FEAR and TREMBLING. If they don't do it, they don't get it... they shall suffer the temporal consequence of their disobedience in this life.
Have a good sleep brother! Shalom!
Sing F Lau
Hartman @"When God destroyed the world by flood, Noah was not spared because he was righteous but because he found grace in the eyes of the LORD. If that grace was given as a reward for righteousness, it could no longer be called grace, for grace is unearned and unwarranted favor."
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Please tell, is saving from the flood the same as saving from the eternal consequences of sin? Is saving from the flood eternal salvation?
And do you think all those 8 that we saved from the flood were all saved with eternal salvation?
And do you think that among all that perished in the flood, all perished ETERNALLY, i.e. gone to hell?
Or is the deliverance from the flood a temporal salvation, in which Noah and his family was VERY actively involved. It was a salvation that Noah cooperated actively! That's not monergistic is it, if monergistic has any meaning at all
Noah being shown grace, eternal salvation in Jesus Christ is monergistic. Noah being saved from the flood is entirely SYNERGISTIC, he cooperating actively with the grace of God shown.
Hartman
Hartman @Brother Sing, you seem to see salvation as an "either/or" proposition: Either God is the sole agent of salvation OR man is responsible to act on his own behalf. Therefore you divide salvation into two separate classes, eternal and temporal. The Bible does not make such a distinction.
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The Bible doesn't make such distinction??? Or is it because men fail or refuse to rightly divide the word of truth.
The Bible on the one hand declares of a salvation is of the Lord... by grace alone... the eternal redemption that Christ alone is the author and have accomplished for His people. The Bible ALSO and IN ADDITION to that declare that there is a salvation that God's children are to work out for themselves with fear and trembling... a salvation CONDITIONED upon their obedience!
One can choose to see them as one salvation and live with the contradiction and confusion, or one can rightly divide the word of truth... and see two distinct salvation spoken of... the former with the Triune God alone as the author, the latter God's children working actively in response to God's grace working in them.
And in light of these plain facts men pontificate that the Bible does not make the distinction! I stand amaze!
Hartman
Sing F Lau
Hartman@Salvation is God's work alone. That is why Jesus is called Savior and we are not. But God certainly DOES hold us accountable to obey such commandments as to work out our own salvation. This may constitute paradox, but it is NOT contradiction. PLEASE NOTE: we are to work OUT our salvation, but NOT to work FOR or TOWARDS our salvation. God ... has worked salvation for us through Christ and worked it IN us by the Holy Spirit's administration of His Word. Now that it is IN us, we are responsible to work it OUT, i.e. to manifest it.
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'Salvation is God's works alone.' Please tell, what is this salvation that is God's works alone? So, I take it that anything that is not by God's work alone is no longer this same salvation spoken of... otherwise words cease to have specific meaning. FULL of contradiction, sir!
Is it the same with the salvation that God's children are commanded to work out for themselves?
How can the salvation that is by the work of God ALONE, and the salvation that is by the working of God's children in respond to God's grace working in them STILL be the one and the same salvation? FULL of contradiction, sir!
The salvation that is worked for us by Christ (legal) and worked in by the Spirit (applied personally) is the eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace... it is God's work alone in delivering from the eternal condemnation of our sins, and bringing us in the state of eternal salvation. The working of that ETERNAL salvation is a finished and done thing by God alone.
You are giving the impression that you must continue that same salvation that God has began and will complete Himself. So, you INDEED have some part to play in your eternal salvation! Then your eternal salvation is NOT longer the work of God alone, is it? It is more like God began it, and you conclude it by your work.
Brother, I am not saying that this is what you believe... but merely pointing the logical conclusion if you fail to distinguish the eternal salvation by free grace alone, and the temporal salvation by God's children working it out for themselves with fear and trembling!
Hartman
How is it possible for God to be utterly sovereign and omnipotent while at the same time holding us responsible for acts of our will? He hasn't given us the specifics, perhaps because we are as yet incapable of comprehending it, but most certainly because such full knowledge would make faith impossible. Faith IS the evidence of things not seen.
Sing F Lau
Hartman@ "How is it possible for God to be utterly sovereign and omnipotent while at the same time holding us responsible for acts of our will?"
God is sovereign and omnipotent in our eternal salvation. He alone is does it all... see Romans 8:29-30.
And He holds His children responsible for working out their own temporal salvation. God has given His children His will to observe to work out their own salvation.
All the acts of His children contributes NOTHING, ZILCH to the eternal salvation that Triune God has purposed, accomplished, applied personally, and will consummate.
Living soberly, godly and righteously save God's children from temporal consequences of their sins in this life, save them from this perverse and crooked generation.
Wyatt
Double salvation? Sounds awefully Wesleyan. And like John Wesley was then you are now, Sing, wrong. Might I suiggest you study hebrews 11 to better understand faith as a result of grace not as the producer of it. Might I also suggest a book my an very godly man named Dr. Louis Hill called "Faith Is...". I know it is available on Amazon. But worth the read and might help you in this issue even if you don't think you need the help.
Sing F Lau
Wyatt@Double salvation? Sounds awefully Wesleyan.
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Is the life that your parents gave you by their action, and the life you are busily making for your self the one and the same life, or are they distinct lives - the one that is undying, and the other temporary, the former of which you have nothing to do, and the latter which you are actively engaged; the one in which you can't alter anything, and the other which is to a very large extent is determined by your response to good parenting?
Get the point? Away with anything Wesleyan please!
Wiebe
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Is the life that your parents gave you by their action, and the life you are busily making for your self the one and the same life, or are they distinct lives - the one that is undying, and the other temporary, the former of which you have nothing to do, and the latter which you are actively engaged; the one in which you can't alter anything, and the other which is to a very large extent is determined by your response to good parenting?
Get the point? Away with anything Wesleyan please!
Wiebe
unless someone else wants to step in, Sing you have been given plenty of time and space to make your case, but it seems that no one is buying it. you do not answer questions when asked but continue to type out data. just let it go.
Sing F Lau
Yes, brother, I will muzzle up. Thanks for the reminder. It is not about selling anyone anything.
It is discussing how best the Scriptures is understood.
Which question did I overlook? Post it on my wall, and I will take it up if I have any thought on the questions.
Thanks again.
It is discussing how best the Scriptures is understood.
Which question did I overlook? Post it on my wall, and I will take it up if I have any thought on the questions.
Thanks again.
When God destroyed the world by flood, Noah was not spared because he was righteous but because he found grace in the eyes of the LORD. If that grace was given as a reward for righteousness, it could no longer be called grace, for grace is unearned and unwarranted favor.