Eternal, Legal, Vital, Practical, Final - do these terms make sense to you?
Initially posted here:
I posted:
Please read these words by the Old School Baptists carefully and slowly,
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them." 1689.11.4 BCF.
All quite plain and simple, aren't they? Only if your mind has not been poisoned by lies!
However the New School Baptists are not only ignorant of the plain gospel truth summarized, but they in their haughtiness also misrepresent the old fathers and accuse and attribute falsehoods to these framers.
One common and popular example is their dismissal and condemnation of the teaching on 'eternal justification' by these Old School Baptists.
1689.11.4 read these words carefully and slowly, and catch the plain and obvious sense.
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them. (13)"
The ETERNAL justification the Old School Baptists speaks of is exactly what the Framers spoke of: "God DID from all eternity decree to justify all the elect."
There is a true sense in which ALL the elect was ACTUALLY justified in eternity - but in the DECRETAL sense, in plain distinction to the LEGAL and PERSONAL and EVIDENTIAL senses dealt with in the other parts of the same chapter!
Many ignoramus reformed (new school baptists) people just dismiss this aspect of justification... and worse still, in their willful ignorance, they accuse and attribute to the Old School Baptists WILD falsehoods - exposing their own ignorance and shallowness. They accuse the Old School Baptists of believing that the elect were actually LEGALLY and PERSONALLY justified by God in eternity!
These are guilty of bearing false witness! They are LIARS, and TWISTED the plain words of the framers! And they have the cheek to claim themselves descendants of the Old School Baptists. They are more like illegitimate step-children from somewhere!
Then there is the EXECUTION of that decree: "Christ DID in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification." There is a true sense in which all the elect was ACTUALLY justified at the cross - but ONLY in the LEGAL sense. All the sins of God's elect were legally IMPUTED to Christ, and Christ's righteousness legally IMPUTED to them at the cross.
LEGAL Condemnation of all in Adam ACTUALLY took place in the garden. LEGAL Justification of all in Christ ACTUALLY took place at the cross. Christ DID - DID - DID die and rise again for the LEGAL justification of all the elect.
What was DECREED and ACCOMPLISHED is then APPLIED to each elect personally. UNTIL - UNTIL - UNTIL then, an elect is not PERSONALLY justified - "they are not justified PERSONALLY, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" - EVEN though they are LEGALLY justified ALREADY.
The crucial word 'personally' is not the WCF, but is in the superior 1689 BCF, further elucidating the sense stated.
"They are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them" - most certainly PRESUPPOSES that they are ALREADY justified DECRETALLY as well as LEGALLY, BUT not personally YET.
And it is ONLY - ONLY - ONLY when they are actually justified personally, when the Holy Spirit does, in God's approved and appointed time, actually apply Christ unto them, at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, THAT they are justified, in the ACTUAL PERSONAL SENSE.
Then and only then they are EN-abled to respond to the gospel call, to believe in Jesus Christ.
Believing in Jesus Christ is the INSTRUMENT to evidence, manifest, demonstrate their JUSTIFIED STATE by the free grace of God. It is NOT - NOT - NOT the instrument to secure PERSONAL justification. It is the instrument to EVIDENCE, MANIFEST, PROVE, VINDICATE, TESTIFY, etc... that the personal justification has taken place by God's free grace.
This is so straightforward that an unprejudiced and un-poisoned mind can understand so easily!
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."
- Leo Tolstoy –
Experiential Justification by Faith in Christ
1689.11.2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7)
Some very obvious implications:
1. "Faith is not alone in the person justified..." Therefore, faith is one of the many saving graces that are found in the person whom the Holy Spirit has applied the justification personally.
Is it not simple and plain enough to say that the product and effect of justification CANNOT possibly be the instrument to secure that same justification at the same time?
Is it not simple and plain enough to say that the product and effect of justification is the instrument or means to MAKE MANIFEST the justification that has taken place by God's free grace? The effect is EVIDENCE of the CAUSE; The effect is not to secure the cause!
2. Faith and works ARE BOTH saving graces produced when justification is applied personally by the Holy Spirit. Both faith and works EVIDENCE and VINDICATE the justified state by God's free grace. Faith and works justify the justified state by the free grace of God.
3. Receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness is ONLY possible WHEN the Holy Spirit has APPLIED the justification to an elect personally. Application of the justification by the Holy Spirit must precede the experience of receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness.
That is why the Old School Baptists declared this:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
All new school baptists reject this obvious truth... betraying their true character as step-children... and not true descendants of the OSB.
Jason asked:
Sing in your opinion was Spurgeon a new school or old school Baptist?
Sing answered:
The answer to your question is, I don't know. And it doesn't matter to me. Probably neither... but somewhere in between. He was morphing... and beginning to lose grip with some of the truth clearly embraced by the old fathers. That's why Spurgeon is loved and quoted by new school baptists all the time.
Andrew Fuller is loved by new school baptists, but he was a 'heretic' to the old school baptists of his time, for his serious deviation from the gospel truth.
I used to read lots of Spurgeon (got lots of his sermons, writings, etc). It was the little book 'The Forgotten Spurgeon' by Iain Murray that was instrumental in introducing the doctrine of grace to me. But I found that Gill is far closer to the faith expressed by the old fathers.
But Gill, who was universally loved and respected by the theologians of various denominations of his days, is now despised and maligned by the new school baptists. That's despite the fact that Spurgeon spoke so highly of Gill, owning him as his mentor.
Spurgeon recorded this in his autobiography these words, "My eminent predecessor, Dr. Gill, was told by a certain member of His congregation who ought to know better, that if he should published his book 'The Cause of God and Truth,' he would lose some of his best friends, and that his income would fall off. The old doctor said, 'I can afford to be poor, but I cannot afford to injure my conscience:' and he has left his mantle as well as his chair in our vestry."
Augustus Toplady, a no mean Anglican theologian himself, testified of his Old Baptist mentor, “Perhaps, no man, since the days of St. Austin, has written so largely, in defense of the system of Grace; and, certainly no man has treated that momentous subject, in all its branches, more closely, judiciously, and successfully.”
“John Gill, a Baptist puritan pastor who writes a thorough defense of Calvinistic theology.” Dr Robert L. Reymond – reformed Presbyterian, Professor of Systematic Theology, and author of “A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith.”
Time has changed indeed, don't you think???
People who claim that they hold to the truth summarized in the 1689 CoF show themselves so different in some major doctrines... the new school has departed from the old path trodden by the old fathers.
Jason inquired further:
Sing I agree with John Gill you might say as a whole however cannot say I agree with every point or at least as I understand him to be saying. A clarification or at least a question I might ask others in defense of eternal justification is, When did Christ atone for their sin once they exercised faith in Christ or When Christ was on the cross before they were born I think the latter would be obvious. I do not disagree with your commentary on Eph 2:8-9 however believe not only is Grace a gift and we are saved by grace through the faithfulness of Christ but to even believe that requires faith which also is a gift. Btw off the subject if I may inquire what eschatological position do you hold.
Sing replied:
"When did Christ atone for their sin once they exercised faith in Christ or When Christ was on the cross before they were born..."
This is a very good question... and you will answer this question rightly if you understand the fundamental difference between LEGAL ATONEMENT and EXPERIENTIAL ATONEMENT.
Atonement took place when Christ died on the cross. At the cross, ALL the sins of ALL those given to Him by God were LEGALLY imputed to Christ, and Jesus Christ suffered fully in their place. Any sin that was not imputed to Christ when He died on the cross WOULD NEVER be atoned for... PERIOD.
You may ask, how is that possible? I was not even born, nor have committed any sin? It is perfectly possible because imputation is a legal transaction, and does not need the personal existence of the persons involved. Though you were not yet born, yet you are already a legal entity... your name is ALREADY in the Book of Life of the Lamb of God.
That LEGAL ATONEMENT on the cross is APPLIED to you PERSONALLY when God called you out of your state of sin and death, in which you are in by nature, to that of grace and salvation. This enabled you to believe and respond to the gospel ministry...
It is in believing that you actually EXPERIENCE your sins ATONED for.
The atonement of our sins REQUIRE just suffering for those sins... and that TOOK PLACE only once at the cross. There is NO OTHER point in time in which the atonement of our sins took place, but at the cross.
So, what is obvious to you is obviously a misunderstanding of the issue involved.
Jason inquired,
Two additional questions in light of Justification Do you believe in imputed rightousness? Do you believe Christ always sanctifies those for whom he justifies at least to some degree.
Sing replied:
Adam's sin was legally imputed to all when he sinned in the garden. That legally imputed sin is APPLIED PERSONALLY, i.e. become operative and vital at conception. What is applied then becomes manifested in sinful thoughts and actions.
Yes, I do believe in IMPUTED righteousness. It is at the very heart of the gospel... I also believe in APPLIED righteousness (imputed righteousness is applied personally, otherwise it is just a legal fact), and MANIFESTED righteousness.
EVEN SO... EVEN SO... EVEN SO...
Christ's righteousness was LEGALLY IMPUTED to all the elect at the cross. Christ's righteousness is APPLIED PERSONALLY to each elect at his effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
This effectual call brings about the DEFINITIVE SANCTIFICATION - a once for all and unrepeatable and complete and perfect separation from the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This aspect of sanctification is EXACTLY the same in nature and degree in every elect.
With this sanctification, there is also ON-GOING sanctification... made possible because of the indwelling Holy Spirit working all the graces within the heart of a child of God. This ENSURES that God's children are always sanctified to some degree.
The degree of this aspect of sanctification is dependent upon many factors... the availability of the ministry of the word, pastoral oversight, Christian fellowship, obedience, etc.
The gospel ministry and the NT church life are very vital elements for the ongoing sanctification of God's children.
Make sense?
Jason replied:
Gotcha thanks, Brother.
