A sheep... lost and all alone. Not found and gathered to the flock!SHEEP & GOATS - There is this common and popular notion among so many Christians... that they were GOATS... and it was through the gospel ministry they were turned into SHEEP. I do wonder whether these sincere folks ever read the Bible? And when they do read, do they understand what they read, and believe what the Scriptures stated in such simple and plain term!
Sides
I was once lost now I'm found.
Sing F Lau
I wrote this note in another place on FB:
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All the elect are SHEEP... ALWAYS SHEEP... but they were lost sheep by nature. Lost sheep were NO goats!
The LOST sheep were lost in that they are cut off from God because of their sins. Jesus came to seek and save them... by His life of perfect righteousness (for justification unto life) and sacrificial death (for the remission of sins).
Jesus' life and work DID FIND and SAVE all the sheep... each and every one of them were reconciled to God - OBJECTIVELY and LEGALLY - it is FINISHED!
This OBJECTIVE and LEGAL work [of eternal salvation] is applied to each individual sheep at God's approved and appointed time... in the effectual call... when each elect is called out of his state of sin an death, in which he is by nature, to that state of grace and salvation.
Those that have been called out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation are able to respond to the gospel call... evidencing the work of God's free grace in them.
Of course very many preachers think their ministry helps to turn goats into sheep! They think and act just like the popish priests who believe by their superstitious hocus-pocus could actually turn wafer and wine into the real body and blood of Jesus Christ!
What darkness!
"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Jesus gave himself for the sheep. He did not give himself for to goats , in order to turn them into sheep! That's a devil's lie.
'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.'
What the Father gave to Christ are SHEEP, not goats! But those sheep were lost... separated from the Father because of sin...
Do people ever read, and believe what the Scriptures say so plainly??? Then why do they believe such weird notions and lies?
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The only biblical explanation:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Fables are FICTIONS...
And the solution prescribed to combat this great evil?
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Too many are just preaching lies! And how many despise sound bible doctrines!
God give them over to DELUSION such that they can't differentiate a lost sheep from a goat!
Now, this is a goat. A goat always remains a goat, even if it become a 3-legged goat! Hodges
Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Hart
Brother Sing, I do NOT think your belief is private interpretation.
Your explanations cannot be understood by lost sheep due to priestcraft deceptions.
Brother Sing, do you think Paul's epistle to the Roman Christians was about charitable giving > Romans 8:28 ?
There's a loved one who ignores verses 29 and 30 and says "dad" has a "personal feeling" and "view". Self justification is the way of lost sheep!
Hart
I have NOT observed priestcraft deceptions in any writings of Brother Sing or Daniel Hodges.
I'm troubled by my family trusting Arminian preachers and modern versions.
Hodges
Dear ones, remember that any of these modern or revised versions are really just reversed visions.
Hart
Agree!
Sides
Sing no one within the reformed camp believes they are out proclaiming the Gospel in order that God may elect them.Out of curiosity what are thoughts in regards to the preaching of George Whitefield.
Sing F Lau
Jason, if you have not come across EVERY so called reformed camp, and they are VERY diverse and many, it is logically and rationally IMPROPER to claim that 'no one within the reformed camp believes blah blah blah..." It would be more correct to say, "Of all those I have come across in the reformed camp, NO ONE... blah blah blah... " would sound more reasonable.
Also the issue is not about election... the issue is about the role of the gospel ministry in transforming GOATS into SHEEP.
Lost, and then found is so simple and plain.
Goats, then become sheep? Superstition and delusion of the worst kind!
Lost sheep were never goats. Period. The father of lies tell God's children otherwise.
Sides
Sing if the issue were not about election why then would you even mention it your feedback in response to your post seems to prove otherwise. I will hold you to the same standard since you do believe I'm wrong why not provide at least one person in any reformed camp who believes as you suggest they do? Secondly I asked about Whitefield and in other post if you ever evangelize and you seem to ignore the issue.
Sides
Richard if I may ask do you hold to what Spurgeon and Baxter taught?
Sing F Lau
Yes, I did mention about election... i.e. that the elect are referred to as sheep, even before they gospel ministry was ever brought to them. They were lost sheep, and not dead goats! That is very different from the issue you raised, I.E. election is conditioned on the proclamation of the gospel - why introduce this alien red herring into the discussion!
I will also state that I have not heard anyone from the reformed camp that believe that election is conditioned upon the gospel ministry. But I have not heard from EVERY reformed camp. I have most certainly heard some people from both the reformed AND deformed camps that insist that the gospel ministry is the instrument to turn goats into sheep! So, I won't declare like you did, "NO ONE from the reformed camp blah blah blah..."
Jason, what did I say that makes you assume that I am suggesting anything about the reformed camp?
What about the preaching of George Whitefield? Is it whether his preaching did turn goats into sheep? If that's the point, then I declare that he was most certainly deceived.
And what specifically that Spurgeon and Baxter taught that you have in mind? Be a little more specific... will help in the discussion.
Wells
Sing - Though you speak very confidently about your position, I must say that I am not so confident in your opinion. As far as I have read and studied, those who will be damned are only referred to as goats one time is scripture. One can hardly build their case on a single verse. Am I wrong on this, please enlightened me.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
~ II Cor 5:17 So then, if one were already a sheep and he becomes a new creature, what is he?
Also, if unregenerate are already sheep, it should be very easy to spot them... after all there are visible differences between sheep and goats. There of course would be no reason to pray or preach to them for they would be found when Christ is ready. With this logic, there would be no need for evangelism. Of course if one did speak God's word, the sheep would hear, because they know the shepherd's voice... but wait... they are not yet regenerate and dead men can't hear the Gospel... so that cancels out the scripture that says my sheep hear my voice.
Hmmm... sounds awful shaky to me Sing.
Sheep that are sought and saved, and added to the flockWells@ "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Cor 5:17
So then, if one were already a sheep and he becomes a new creature, what is he?
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It matters very little to me whether you - for that matter, any man, great or small - are confident in anything I say. What matters to me is that I rightly divide the truth so that I not be ashamed, when shown in error by smart Brother like you! "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
I have been shown to be wrong many times before, and taught the truth. You would do me a great favor by showing me the truth. You have not.
A LOST sheep is an elect in his natural state, in the state of sin and death... a creature in his natural and old state, therefore an OLD creature. He is NOT a goat, nor a lost goat.
A lost sheep that is found PERSONALLY (as opposed to found LEGALLY in the finished work of Christ) when the redemption is applied to him in effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, is turned a NEW creature by the grace of God.
Isn't that a very simple answer to your rhetorical (but very misguided) question?
The UN-regenerate elect ARE sheep, but they ARE LOST - LOST - LOST sheep... in their natural state of sin and death. So, it is impossible to spot them... because the lost sheep "were by nature the children of wrath, even as other." They (UN-regenerate ELECT) are exactly like the goats in their spiritual state.
Did you notice, "EVEN AS OTHERS"?
Sing F Lau
Wells@ "Also, if unregenerate are already sheep, it should be very easy to spot them... after all there are visable differences between sheep and goats."
If you are thinking of LITERAL sheep and goats, then you are right! But if you are on that, then you and I are not communicating.
NO, NO, NO, there are NO difference between the LOST sheep (elect who are not regenerated) and goats (the rest of mankind).
There are visible and radical difference between found sheep (made new creatures through effectual by God's free grace) and goats.
Sing F Lau
Wells@ "There of course would be no reason to pray or preach to them for they would be found when Christ is ready. With this logic, there would be no need for evangelism. Of course if one did speak God's word, the sheep would hear, because they know the shepherd's voice... but wait... they are not yet regenerate and dead men can't hear the Gospel so that cancel's out the scripture that says my sheep hear my voice."
This reveals a whole loads of confusion and delusions.
First, only those sheep that are found, i.e the elect that are regenerated will ever hear and receive the preached gospel as God's power of saving them. All the others, i.e. LOST sheep, still in their state of sin and death, will not hear the gospel... the most eloquent and persuasive preaching of the gospel will come across as foolishness to them.
Second, 'my sheep hear my voice'. You are confusing the LIFE-GIVING voice of Christ in calling out those sheep dead in trespasses and sins to grace and salvation. Christ's sheep alone, those given to Christ in their lost condition - shall be summoned to life... i.e. they alone shall hear the life-giving voice of Christ. NONE others will, because the life-giving voice of Jesus Christ will not be spoken to them.
Please don't confuse the life giving voice of Christ in regeneration, and the preachers' voice as the instrument in CONVERTING God's children. Christ DOES NOT speak through preachers in quickening dead sinners.
Prayers and preaching are very important for their divinely ordained purpose... BUT most certainly not for the purpose conjured up by confused and deluded men! I don't want to repeat the same things over again. Let the wilfully ignorant be ignorant still, said the Apostle Paul.
Sides
Sing I trust you have read of Whitfields sermons so I am not being specific about a particular thought but rather what he taught in the open air as a whole.Your snide gestures against a person rather than the position held seems to put so many on the defensive.Have you written any articles on how to evangeize not just how not to if so and it is biblical would you kindly share it as it could prove to be a great benefit as we are called to redeem the time not waste it on what could be silly attempts of proclaiming the Good news.
Hart
"The Bible does not teach that belief in Christ is what saved us from hell: but rather, belief tells that we ARE saved from hell. Paul tells us that the gospel brings eternal life to light. It reveals what is already there, and it enlightens us to believe all the more." - David M.
Hart
Jason, I do NOT hold to the teachings of any man.
I am especially concerned that so many well-meaning believers align themselves with ministries named after men.
Jude 3,4 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For the there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lascisviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I do believe in God's preservation of the saints. - FREE Grace
I do NOT believe in perseverance of the saints. -Works or self-justification.
Intrinsic faith is God's free gift.
Gospel faith is man's exercise of the gift, gospel obedience.
The Law only informs us of sins, but cannot eternally save us.
I believe in eternal salvation and time salvations contingent upon obeying and honoring our LORD.
Sing F Lau
Brother Jason, I have read lots of Whitefield's sermons, and his massive biography by Arnold Dallimore - that was in the early 80s.
The issue at hand is not to preach or not to preach. Preaching is ordained and commanded by Christ. So, it much be obeyed.
The issue is, what is the function and purpose for which the preaching ministry is ordained.
So much have been written on HOW to evangelize...
If you want to read some thoughts on WHY evangelize, read some thoughts in "Pruning Seven Deformed Branches" book, posted here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/
Sing F Lau
Richard @ "I am especially concerned that so many well-meaning believers align themselves with ministries named after men."
This is the nauseating thing I see... so many 'friends' on Facebook quoting MEN, o yes, famous men, men with great names, puritans, reformers, ec., etc. ... and so many 'liking' the quotes even though there is much errors in the quote.
Few people quoting Scriptures, and promoting to study the Scriptures.
The days Apostle Paul warned have come...
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Sing F Lau
Wells@ "As far as I have read and studied, those who will be damned are only referred to as goats one time is scripture."
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But you choose to ignore the MANY occasions that the elect are called sheep, and they are lost sheep, and Jesus was sent to seek them and to save them, and not any others.
It is sufficient that the Scriptures give mention of the goats once. Any more than that would be more than is necessary, and a waste of precious space! The focus of the Scriptures is upon the sheep, those whom God gave to Christ, and for whom Christ came to seek and save; instead of the goats.
The damned are referred as goats... that plain and simple. There is no for repetition.
Those that God glorified are the ELECT, and the ELECT alone.
Romans 8:
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
AS MANY AS - not one more, and not one less!
John 17:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Sing F Lau
Don't waste time with goats.
Christ is a SHEPherd... He ain't no GOATherd at all.
Only goatherd hirelings want to win goats!
Take a look here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/feeding-sheep-or-entertaining-goats.html
