Does a child of God always exhibit a life of faith and holiness?Calvinism insists that one who does not exhibit a life
of faith and holiness can't possibly be a child of God to begin with.
Are there times when God's children fail to manifest a life of faith and holiness?
Does this popular notion measure up to the facts of Scriptures?
Do all of God's children go through the strait gate and walk the narrow way?
What about those who make a shipwreck of their faith?
Are they God's children or a they not?
Can children of the devil make a shipwreck of their faith?
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Read and think about the subject in the brief discussion below.
Statement 1: "No life of faith and holiness means no state of grace, i.e. all those in the state of grace will have a life of faith and holiness."
Is such idea biblical truth or injurious falsehood?
Is it reality or fiction?
Statement 2: "No state of grace means no life of faith and holiness... i.e. a state of grace is absolutely necessary to enable a life of faith and holiness."
Does this mean that every child of God evidences a life of faith and holiness?
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Adam
"That man's state is nothing, and his faith unsound, that finds not his hopes of glory purifying to his heart and life." ~ Robert Traill
Sing F Lau
Why is a man's state nothing if it is a state of grace?
If he is in a state of grace, he has been made fit for eternal glory! Most certainly, that's quite something by God's grace.
If it is STILL in the state of nature, then that would be far worse than nothing!
Only a man in a state of grace is capable of faith, whether that faith is sound or unsound! Soundness of faith depends very much on the availability of faithful gospel ministry, as well as diligence attendance unto it. Faithful gospel ministry informs and instructs a child of God concerning his hopes of glory through the finished work of Christ APPLIED to him personally by the free grace of God.
Adam
If he is in a state of grace is the question. Do you think a man can be in a state of grace and not show fruit of it by a purified life? I think not!
Sing F Lau
Brother, ask Lot! Look at Solomon towards the latter part of his life! Did they show fruit of that state of grace by a PURIFIED LIFE? The Scriptures speak of those children of God who make shipwreck of their faith. Jesus speaks of those children of God, who because of the cares of the world become fruitless! (Mt 13 parable is about discipleship of God's children).
A state of grace SHOULD manifest itself in a state of grace... fact is, it DOES NOT ALWAYS. That's reality... assumed and evident in many of Paul's epistles.
A man's state of grace by God's free and sovereign is something very precious, and not nothing, even though his discipleship is messed up, and suffer accordingly.
Christopher
Purified Life ? Who can attain that state if not for the Grace of GOD ? It is a long long long process especially man that has been soaked with the world and all it's evil ways. No one can question or judge the state of man even though there is no evidence seen by man . A man can repent but to conform to the WORD of GOD takes a life time . I guess normal people do not understand the struggles of abnormal people . There are some who can change overnite but they are far and few like the Apostle Paul . Only GOD sees the man's heart condition and say it is good
Adam
You are right Chris, it is a process, but a process means something is happening. What the quote is saying is that if people call themselves believers hoping for eternal glory the effect should be like Titus 2:11-13 says "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
Let no man deceive himself, though he call himself by the name of Christ and does not obey his commands, what is he?
Sing F Lau
"... we SHOULD live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world..." Triple amen to that.
To say that God's children SHOULD - SHOULD - SHOULD be fruitful is very different from saying that THEREFORE each and every child of God WOULD SURELY be fruitful, and that those that are not fruitful can't possibly be God's children at all to begin with. That is the assumption of many.
Indeed let NO PREACHER go around lying that every child of God would live purified life, life of faith nd holiness. That simply does not measure up to facts revealed in the Scriptures.... See More
Such a preacher is utterly ignorant of the SIMPLE FACT that SONSHIP is wholly and solely by the free grace of God... whereas fruitfulness as a DISCIPLE is dependent upon many human factors.
There are healthy children, and there are sickly children. Some preachers would dismiss the sickly as children of the devils because they believe the lie that all God's children as strong and healthy, and there are no sickly weak children among them!
Liars insist that all of God's children live purified life. God plainly diagnosed his people this way, "My people are bent on backsliding."
Adam
Sing - Are you suggesting that the same Lord who justifies us will not also sanctify us?
No one said that there are not weak and sick, but the scripture instructs us to do what with them? Leave them in their weakness or exhort and correct?
I also agree that preachers ought not say that every child of God will live a completely purified life, but to say that a child of God will not undergo purification is equally false.
Sing F Lau
"That man's state is nothing..."
Ok, let's leave aside first whether it is nothing or something.
Fact 1: A man has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with the state he is in. If in the state nature, and all (absolutely everyone without exception) begin with that nature... he was conceived and born in the state of sin. And there is absolutely nothing he can do about it to get out of that state. He loves, and wallows in his native state.
Fact 2: A man has NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the state of grace he is in. God alone, through His FREE and SOVEREIGN grace brought that man who was by nature in the state of sin and death, out of that state into the state of grace and salvation.
Eternal salvation is by God's free and sovereign grace alone. Free grace alone brought a man out of the state of sin and death to that of righteousness and eternal life.
The state of a man - whether in the state of nature or of grace - is really beyond and outside his power. Without free and sovereign intervention from outside of him, he would remain in the state of sin and death in which he was conceived and born.
However, his state of WELL BEING is an entirely different issue. His state of well-being depends very much upon his discipleship... his obedient responses to the gospel ministry. He is responsible to work out his own salvation, because God has first saved him with eternal salvation through the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Adam
Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures. What you are suggesting sounds like a calvinist's version of "Easy Believism."
Christopher
A man's ways are right in his own eyes but the LORD sees and weighs the heart.... There are many who live a "purified life" but the heart is still empty because they still feel unworthy because the question is what is purity ? GOD's standard or man's standard ? GOD is merciful and gracious whereas man is critical and judgemental . God recognizes ... See Morethe frailty of man and HE judges the heart condition of man ,just like David a murderer and wife stealer yet GOD says that david is a man after HIS heart but of cos david had to face the consequences of his sins . Let us not get ourselves entangled with the ways of man but let us understand the HEART of GOD who loves us all and revel on HIS LOVE ! Remember the 2 most important commandments LOVE GOD LOVE our neighbours as ourselves above these there is NO OTHER !!! Amen
Adam
Chris you said "There are some who can change overnite but they are far and few like the Apostle Paul." Let me ask you, did Paul have access to more grace than the next guy? What about David? Let us not condone or make excuses for our sin, but rather submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee.
Christopher
I'm not saying that we condone sin but rather let us take each step at a time step by step . We only have one life and let us live it well for the glory of GOD and live it by simple faith for faith comes from hearing . Let us hear from GOD and from the people around us who can teach all of us to live correctly. We want to be encouraged by believers... See More to grow in our faith and not reminded again and again of our state we were or are in. We want to be cheered on brother as all of us are running in the same race . JESUS always encourages people and his disciples with parables. Sometimes some of these quotes by men do not reach that mark but rather it sometimes derides a persons self-worth and faith. I don't mean to debate with you but just to let you know how it feels. I am not in that level of spiritual maturity but this is my understanding of scripture ,Let us teach one another.......with love and gentleness ...and continue to love one another with the LOVE of the LORD
Adam
Bro Chris, I shun anything that tries to give me self worth. Many preachers today stroke self and try to comfort men in the flesh. The problem is that is what the flesh wants to hear. As Isaiah said in ch 30: "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not to us right things, speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits..."
Kind of sounds like what Paul said: men would gather teachers who would tell them what their itching ears want to hear.
Remember, the Lord disciplines those that He loves and no discipline is comfortable while the rod is upon us! Let us consider our ways.
Sing F Lau
"Sing - Are you suggesting that the same Lord who justifies us will not also sanctify us?"
Adam, you DON'T seem to understand a very basic thing - there are things that God ALONE does... and what HE does He does it EQUALLY well in every elect.
Every elect is equally justified, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less justified than any other elect.
Every elect is justified by their faith to a great variety of degree - all conditioned upon the degree of their faith. This is experiential justification in contrast to legal justification conditioned upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Every elect is equally regenerated, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less regenerated than any other child of God.
Every elect is equally adopted, in every possible way, by His free grace. No one elect is less adopted than any other child of God.
Every elect of God is EQUALLY sanctified (separated) from the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. Theologians call this DEFINITIVE SANCTIFICATION - which is a once for all, complete and unrepeatable... because it is entirely by God's free grace alone. In this definitive sanctification, every child of God is equally sanctified by God, because it is the sanctification that God alone WORKED it Himself by His free grace.
However, your question involve a sanctification which is very much conditioned upon the obedience of God's children. And that human factor in the equation is where ALL the trouble lies... God has said, "My people are bent on back-sliding..." That's pretty blunt... what a no-frill point blank diagnosis!
That's explains why there are Lots and there are Abrahams among God's children
Yes, a child of God SHOULD - SHOULD - SHOULD... but how often does he do so? I fear not very often at best... Look at all the constant rebuke and admonition and censures in all the epistles.
I am stating reality... not at all condoning the poor discipleship that prevailed. It is misleading to give the impression that God's true children will all live life of faith and holiness!
Adam
Sing you say: " I am stating reality... not at all condoning the poor discipleship that prevailed. It is misleading to give the impression that God's true children will all live life of faith and holiness!"
I couldn't disagree more! Again you are speaking the same type of notions as the "easy believism" camp.
Anyhow, enough for tonight, I'm off to bed.
Christopher
When i say self-worth this what i mean...Remember the 2 most important commandments LOVE GOD LOVE our neighbours as ourselves above these there is NO other !If we do not have this in our hearts we are just like those pharisees which is still prevelant in the middle east .
People grow when they are encouraged.People gets discouraged when things are rammed down thier throats even tho" they know it's for thier good. GOD gave us JESUS so that thro HIM he can experience the struggles that we face everyday and gave us HIS ultimate sacrifice.That is the encouragement to live our lives for HIM.HE knows that without HIS GRACE we can do nothing .The HOLY Spirit will help us in our weaknesses when we desire HIM. Let GOD do HIS work.....
Wells
"People grow when they are encouraged." - So in your opinion how do we encourage one another? Is it that we say what the other wants to hear thus flattering them? Or do we ignore obvious errors to preserve peace? I think the best way is to live our lives unto the Lord and "to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27 When we refuse to compromise and allow worldly thinking, this will invariably cause those watching our lives to check themselves. Doesn't this "encourage" them (fellow believers) to also be free from the pollution of this world?
In the words of Richard Baxter, the puritan known for being a great pastor: "Screw the truth into men's minds." I am certain that many are thankful for Baxter's persistant hammering of the truth!
Sing F Lau
"I couldn't disagree more! Again you are speaking the same type of notions as the "easy believism" camp. "
You give me the greatest tickle I have had for a long time. How does what I say have anything to do with easy believism!
Let me give you an example: Supposing Adama said that all American citizens do enjoy the American Dream (i.e. all God's children do live purified life of faith and holiness) Those that do not can't possibly be true American citizens, they are pariah (i.e. that who do not live a purified life of faith and holiness CAN'T possibly be God's children, but children of wrath).
Supposing Osinga disagrees with Odama and insists that there are many American citizens who do not enjoy the American Dream, and yet they are no less American citizens than those who do enjoy the American dream.
Then Adama smugly labels Osinga of 'easy citizenism'!
I say Adama has a perverse idea of the citizenship and American dream!
What a joke!
If God's dear children do live [simple present tense, the habitual state of being] purified life - soberly, godly and righteously - then lots of exhortations and warnings become redundant. All those warnings and admonitions just show otherwise.
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
What kind of life do all these rebuke and admonition presupposes? Is Apostle Paul dealing to real situation?
You need more?
Here it is... said to God's children:
4:1 ¶ From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Not much of a purified life...
Look at the letters to the seven churches... so much things wanting in most of them... beside their genuine and sincere effort to bear a witness to the Lord.
Sir, may be you have been blessed with a congregation of saints that live purified life. Those that don't you would consider them of children of wrath.
Sing F Lau
Adam Wells@ Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures. What you are suggesting sounds like a calvinist's version of "Easy Believism."
I suggest that words SHOW so serious misunderstanding. See if you can understand.
NO ONE has denied the truthfulness of the first sentence... "Salvation apart from obedience is unknown in the scriptures." What make you thing that I disagree with you on that statement?
It only shows that you DON'T EVEN know that exact issue being disputed.
The issue is like this:
You are insisting that every human being manifest good health strength. That is a falsehood. And based on that falsehood, is this injurious conclusion-those who do not manifest good health and strength are not human beings.
I objected that your statement is a falsehood, and your conclusion (and that's the standard conclusion of many puritans who had to work in a state church, and not the gathered church) is injurious to those human beings who are weak and poor in health.
Then you conclude that I am for weakness and poor health among men... EVEN though I do everything to promote health and strength among God's children on the one hand, and constantly warn them of the many things that are injurious to their health and strength!
Flabbergasted by your obtuseness, and your readiness to throw around label. Is that the best you can do? It is an insult to label me a calvinist... for I am not one.
Adam
Sing - My goal is not to offend by name calling, but to understand where you are coming from, and so that you can see how I take what you are saying... it seems you are adding to what I have said and what the original quote is saying. It IS NOT saying that men will live perfectly pure lives. It IS SAYING that if one has hopes of heaven and those ... See Morehopes of heaven do not bring about purification (notice the wording, however small or great that purification may be) he is deceiving himself into thinking he is in born again, possibly because he admires Christians or feels it will do him good.
The admonitions are necessary and yes men are prone to backsliding. Consider this text of I Cor 6: " Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Sing F Lau
Adam@ "It IS NOT saying that men will live perfectly pure lives."
Who has given the slightest hint that God's children will live perfectly? Is anyone contending for that worse lie? I have heard of Methodist Perfectionism before! What a deluded fiction!
The point of contention is: you said that grace always manifests itself in a purified life in EVERY child of God. That is a very popular Calvinistic doctrine.
I said the witness of the Scriptures plainly contradicts that false notion, even though it is calvinistic!
Lot was certainly a child of grace. Did he live a purified life? If yes, then I understand what you meant by a purified life. Solomon was a child of grace... look at the last years of his life! Did he manifest a purified life - life of idolatry and multitudes of foreign wives.
Such calvinistic fiction would have to write off these two men, and many others... since they didn't fit the calvinistic fiction that all children of grace live purified life!
The Scriptures tell us plainly that some of God's children make shipwreck of their faith... instead of living a purified life! They, through their carelessness and negligence and unbelief, mess it up to various degrees. Even the candlesticks are removed from churches! If the calvinistic fiction is true, these things would be unnecessary!
Don't think that I am lowering the standard. The biblical standard of godliness must be insisted upon, and those who name the name of Christ must at all time be given all the encouragement - through sound doctrine, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness - to live soberly, godly and righteously.
But that is not the same as bearing false witness that every child of grace will live purified life... that's just a fiction and a lie.
Yes, every child of grace OUGHT/SHOULD live purified life. I will end here. But many fail to! Others make a shipwreck of their faith. MANY go through the wide gate and walk the broad way!
Thanks for the exchanges...
