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| One flock of sheep and goats of the One Shepherd |
Chakyu [29/10/2022 19:25]
Matthew 25
31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in
his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne
of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all
nations: and he shall separate them one from an other, as a shepherd divideth
his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his
right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on
his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for
you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me
meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick,
and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him,
saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave
thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took
thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in
prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say
unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the
least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on
the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for
the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me
no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not
in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him,
saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked,
or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying,
Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into
everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
"Everlasting punishment" is mentioned in the same passage with "life eternal" to talk about the opposite destiny of the sheep and goats.
Sing Lau, [31/10/2022 17:06]
[In reply to Chakyu]
Thank you for this passage of
Scriptures.
Let me suggest these for your careful
consideration.
Ask further questions if you don't
understand or disagree.
1. All three parables of the kingdom of
heaven in Mt 25 have one common theme
- the wise and foolish virgins of the
One Bridegroom,
- the 'good and faithful servants' and
the 'slothful and wicked' servants of the One and same Master,
- the sheep and the goats of one flock
of the One Shepherd.
Do you see the common theme?
Does this help to direct your thought
on the identity of the sheep and the goats a bit?
These parables were addressed to the Jewish audience in the Olivet discourse – dealing with the prophesied end of the Jewish nation, particularly.
2. Look at Mt 25:31ff again... WITHOUT
the coloured glasses put on us
a. Just look again at what is plainly
stated there
- v32 reads "as a shepherd divideth
HIS HIS HIS sheep from the goats." This informs us that both the goats and
the sheep make up the ONE flock which belongs to the shepherd. So it makes more
sense to differentiate the sheep and the goats as obedient and disobedient
among the redeemed, as the parable unfolds, rather than representing the
elect and non-elect.
- The need to divide the sheep from the
goats plainly presupposes that there are sheep and goats in the one flock of
the shepherd. Both the sheep and goats are His!
- It was a common practice for one
shepherd to keep both sheep and goats. There are obedient and disobedient people among Christ's redeemed people.
- However, some suggest that wild goats
intrude into the flock of sheep! What a desperate fable; what a disgraceful reflection on
Christ as the Shepherd.
- What's worse, is that the Shepherd requires those wild goats (if understood as the non-elect, dead in trespasses and sins) to do righteous deeds to His people!! This must be a joke!
b. Next, it is clearly stated that the
inheritance of the kingdom mentioned is
BASED on the works and merits of the sheep spelt out, (v35... "for ye did
this, did this, did this, did this ...")
- The opposite is true of the goats,
i.e. because these disobedient among Christ's redeemed people didn't do what the Shepherd justly expected them to do, they
suffer their just due.
- These can't be speaking of the
eternal glory or lake of fire after the general resurrection... which is determined
solely whether their names were written in the Lamb's book of life, and
redeemed by the Lamb alone. Rev 20:15.
c. Then, we see the obvious indication
that the goats represent those who DO KNOW the Lord who judges them... see v44.
They are obviously people who were DESIROUS to minister to the Lord.
- The non-elect are POSITIVELY hostile
and in enmity against the Lord. The goats are believers, but disobedient
believers. They are God's children among the Jews who failed to recognize Jesus
was the very Messiah they were waiting for, thus failing to minister to
believers in Jesus Christ.
- The whole of the inspired Scriptures
is directed/intended for God's redeemed people.
d. Finally, verse 41 "ye cursed,
into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." This can't
possibly be the final lake of fire.
- Rev 20:10 "And the devil... was
cast into the lake of fire." Where was the devil before he was cast into
the lake of fire on the great judgment day? Hell... everlasting fire... UNTIL
delivered up on the resurrection day to be cast into the lake of fire.
- Jude 6 "And the angels which
kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in
everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day," then they shall be cast into the lake of fire.
- This is distinct from the lake of
fire. The everlasting chains under darkness are ONLY unto the judgment of the
great day. After the judgment of the great day is the Lake of Fire!
Even seemingly intelligent people insist that everlasting fire is the same as the lake of fire. Not necessarily. 'Everlasting' is just that - it lasts and endures until God's appointed time, even to the great day of judgment; hell shall be EMPTIED, says the Scriptures.
3. The Lord’s expectation from the
goats
- Mt 25:42-3 "For I was an
hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was
a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in
prison, and ye visited me not."
- With these words, did Jesus find
faults with those dead in trespasses and sins, or with the disobedient among His redeemed?
- OR did Jesus EXPECT the non-elect to
do such things to Him, for His sake???
- Just from WHOM did Jesus EXPECT such
deeds of kindness to Him, for His sake?
I would like to hear some reasoned
answers from you and others! Thanks.
In fruitful and profitable
conversations, honest questions expect answers.
I fear that ONE of the plain teachings
of the Scriptures that have been neglected and ignored by the Christian churches is
the Bible's teaching on the "intermediate state."
And one of the CHIEF reasons why Christian
churches glibly dismiss this biblical doctrine out of hand is because some
ignorant Christians love hurling the label of purgatory upon any who would dare
to mention such a subject.
- "Now the serpent was more
cunning than any other beasts..." Satan knows that he can't stop any of
the redeemed from being resurrected and glorified and entering eternal glory. The next best he could do... cause many of them to end up in hell during the
intermediate state. The best way to do it is to cause the churches to dismiss
the Bible's teaching in the intermediate state.
But the Romish purgatory is completely different from the Bible's teaching on the "intermediate state"; it deserves to be abhorred by any thinking disciples of Jesus Christ.
WITHOUT the biblical doctrine of the intermediate state - so many passages of the Scriptures do not make sense, and those passages are senselessly equated to the final judgement at resurrection and glorification.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
If the Lord God spares me, I am determined to recover this teaching and restore it to Christ's churches. The Lord is not done with me yet. Amen.
WoChans
1. All three parables of the kingdom of
heaven in Mt 25 have one common theme:
- the wise and foolish virgins of the
One Bridegroom,
- the 'good and faithful' servants and
the 'slothful and wicked' servants of the One and same Master,
- the sheep and the goats of one flock
of the One Shepherd.
Could there be a different interpretation?
Because the third implied a lot of events that match the final judgment. I
would suggest that the 1st and 2nd do speak of the intermediate state, the door is shut
(v10) and outer darkness and gnashing of teeth (v30). But to join v31-46 to the
v1-30 certainly take a deep dive.
If the sheep are righteous (v37) then
the goats are also righteous but err to deserve this judgment, in company with
devil and fallen angels?
Do we inherit the kingdom (v34)
prepared by our Father at this intermediate state?
There will be issues with everlasting punishment and life eternal (v46)
Sing Lau, [03/11/2022 17:43]
Q Could there be a different
interpretation? Because the third implied a lot of events that match the
final judgment. I would suggest that the 1st and 2nd do speak of the intermediate
state, the door is shut (v10) and outer darkness and gnashing of teeth (v30). But
to join v31-46 to the v1-30 certainly take a deep dive.
===========
Thanks for the questions; I haven’t forgotten them. I don’t shirk questions; other men here do, nearly all the time; my questions don’t get answered.
There is a different interpretation,
namely, the third speaks of the last and final judgment at the end of
time. There are not a few serious
implications this interpretation has to deal with. If you want to hear some,
let me know. Maybe other alert men wish to name some.
You said, “the third implied a lot of
events that match the final judgment.”
Kindly name some; I would be pleased to
hear. The three are in the same shallow pond, just different corners; no deep
dive is involved.
All three parables have the one
same theme, one same message; that’s undeniable. The first parable runs for 13
verses; the second for 17 verses; and the third for 16 verses. All three
deal with the people of the same Person – portrayed as the Bridegroom, the
Master, and the Shepherd; His people are described as
- wise virgins and foolish
virgins;
- faithful servants, and wicked and slothful servants; and
- the sheep (the obedient) and
the goats (the disobedient)
They are all judged according to their deeds.
It’s quite arbitrary to yank one out because one has a few more details!
I will mention one to show you that
this is NOT the final judgment.
Pay attention, this is probably the
first time this blessed truth will register with you EVEN THOUGH I have pointed it out often enough.
In the final judgment, it is said
that the Books and the Book are opened.
- In the BOOKS are records of all the acts
of all those not redeemed by Christ – they shall be judged according to their
works; that is the criteria they will be judged.
- In the BOOK (the Lamb’s Book of Life)
is written all the names of those given to, and redeemed by Christ. Their entry
into eternal glory, and not the lake of fire, is determined solely on the
basis that their names are in the Book. Read Rev 20:7ff judgment after the
“1000 years” of the gospel age are “expired.”
Some men choose to be determined by their works for their entrance into eternal glory; I rest in the assured hope of my name in the Lamb's Book of Life. Amen. But good luck to them. I'm prepared to be judged by my works and be determined where I will be in the intermediate state while AWAITING for my resurrection and glorification. Why? That's the only way!
In any of the judgment accounts where the works are brought into consideration for blessing or judgment, it has to do with rewards and judgment relating to the temporal intermediate state. Read Mt 25:31-46 again in this light. Rewards are in the realm of temporal salvation.
I said it is a tragedy that the Christian churches have lost this doctrine of the intermediate state so clearly taught in the Scriptures; it has been bulldozed by sincere teachers and their followers to the mound of final judgment. Tragedy.
Q. If the sheep are righteous (v37)
then the goats are also righteous but err to deserve this judgment, in company
with the devil and fallen angels?
Your ‘if’ and ‘then’ logic betrays serious
confusion.
Both the sheep and goats are legally
and vitally righteous by the redeeming work of their Shepherd; that’s why they
are found in His flock.
The sheep are practically righteous,
evidenced by their works of righteousness; “you did this… you did this… you did
this…” The goats are practically wicked, evidenced by their failure to do what
the Lord EXPECTED of them.
The devil has been chained and cast into the bottomless pit at Christ's first coming… Rev 20:1
“The angels that sinned [are] cast them
down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto
judgment” 2Pet 2:4. How did they sin? Read Jude 6.
On the final judgment (after the "1000 years gospel age - Rev 20:7), the devil shall
be cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:10.
If you can’t connect the dots, ask questions.
Q. Do we inherit the kingdom (v34)
prepared by our Father at this intermediate state?
The kingdom inherited is based on the works of
righteousness enumerated; eternal glory in heaven is NOT; it's freely bestowed by God's grace and grace alone based on the finished work of Christ alone.
To be ushered into paradise prepared by
our Father in the intermediate state is wonderful beyond words. I'm thankful to the
Lord for such a place during the intermediate state.
@@ There will be issues with everlasting
punishment and life eternal (v46)
- Everlasting: last until the end of
time, when hell shall deliver up its captives; the EMPTY hell shall be cast
into the lake of fire. It’s all there in the Holy Scriptures… too many don’t
want to read nor want to believe what it says.
Christ holds the keys of death and
hell, Rev 1:18. Ah, what blessed words. All of Christ’s redeemed that justly ended up in hell
shall, at the appointed time, be delivered up for their resurrection and
glorification.
I have written too much. I hope it gets read and considered.
Where you think I’m wrong, I will be
glad to know, seriously. Thank you.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
