November 16, 2019
#Is_Common_Sense_Dead?
Consider
these two statements:
- A
tenant was kicked out of the house and cast out into the wilderness by the landlord
because of his pride and rebellion against the landlord, and
(I amended this illustration: it was a son who was kicked out of the home.)
- A
man committed a crime and was cast into prison, waiting for his execution.
What
do you think if a man insists that the two as speaking of the same event?
Whatever
has happened to common sense?
-------
Rev
12
7
¶And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his
angels were cast out with him.
2Pet
2
4 ¶For
if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and
delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
Jude
6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own
habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day."
====================
This
post is provoked by this Q & A.
I
inquired:
Do
you consider -
(i)
the sin that got Satan and his hosts cast OUT of heaven to the earth, and
(ii)
the sin that got the angels that sinned cast down to hell and delivered into
chains of darkness, reserved unto the great judgment day,
-
to be one and the same sin or are they two distinct and separate sins?"
The
firm reply:
"Based
upon the texts given in the thread above I see no evidence in those texts to
indicate two separate events or judgments."
15
Comments
++++++++++++++
John
Burkett
Of
course, it is common sense to equate them to the same event. To believe otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand the holiness of God.
Your example is foolish on two accounts 1. It oversimplifies the nature of offence 2. The judgments passed in your example proceed from two different places which is a fundamental error as it relates to God.
Sing
F Lau
Foolish
they may be but their sole purpose is to illustrate that the two are distinct
and not the same.
It
is meant to illustrate that the sin that got Satan cast out of heaven unto the
earth, and the sin that got some angels cast down to hell, and delivered into
chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment are two distinct sins.
To
that end, it is plain and simple, even if they seem foolish to you.
Thank you for your kind words.
John
Burkett
Sing
F Lau again your showing a distinction which does not exist. In order for the
illustration to be valid it has to be in keeping in keeping with the holiness
of God and it is not. What your illustrations says is that God dealt with Satan
as a parent would his children which is out right heresy. God only chastens
those whom he loves and your argument treats satan’s fall as a chastisement
rather than an act of judgement. The casting out of Satan and his angels is
without question the same event. Does sin and rebellion against God warrant any
other punishment other than eternal damnation? If you say yes you stand
entirely outside the realm of scripture. The casting out of heaven was the
immediate consequence and eternal damnation the ultimate consequence. Just as
being expelled from the garden was the immediate consequence for Adam and
eternal wrath was the ultimate consequence.
So let’s not base out understanding of scripture on silly illustrations which are not in keeping with the character of Gods justice and holiness.
Adam
Wells
Sing
F Lau... I think your examples are stretching it for if there are statements
elsewhere which link your 2 events, why wouldn't it be common sense???
Sing
F Lau
The
examples are for the illustration that the two events are entirely different:
-
the parties involved are different,
-
the sin involved as different,
-
the consequences stated are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO different.
It
puzzled me no end to hear smart intelligent folks saying they are the same.
The
"original" sin involving UNFALLEN Satan and his host and the sin in
2Pet 2 involving some FALLEN angels are different.
To
insist they are the same destroys the basic rules of interpretation.
Good
night... need to get ready for the services tomorrow.
Sing F Lau
John,
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your confusion. I won't waste time
picking the various errors in what you have stated but the main things:
1.
Satan's initial sin of pride caused him and his host to be cast out of heaven
to the earth.
2.
Some of those fallen angels sinned in a particular way and were cast down to
hell, delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
3. Satan's power is restrained specifically by the coming of Christ. Rev 20:1
4.
Satan and his host being cast into the lake of fire at the great judgment - Rev
20:10
If
words have meanings, these four events are distinct.
No.1
happened as you have suggested at the BEGINNING of HISTORY; you said thus,
"As to when this occurred we know that it was after day one of the
creation but before the temptation of eve."
As
for No 4, the Scriptures PLAINLY, as plain as the noonday sun, that it happens
at THE END OF HISTORY when the judgment would be executed.
If
I have read you correctly, you have lumped 1,2 and 4 as EQUIVALENT. You might
as well say that earth, hell, and the lake of fire are equivalent
To my little mind, your confusion is profound, and you know it not.
And
no PB corrects you. So, I take that either all agree with you, or they differ
to a great teacher of God's word like you.
Thank
you.
I was blessed to preach from 2Pet 2:2 at our first service, and from Rev 3:1.
Adam
Wells
Sing
F Lau are you equating Rev 12 to be the same event as recorded in Jude & 2
Peter? I've no time to discuss Rev 12 now, but it in no wise relates to the
other 2 passages.
Sing F Lau
How
could we equate them?
In
Rev 12, the transgressors, Satan and his host were cast out of heaven unto the
earth; in 2Pet 2 and Jude, the particular angels that sinned were "cast
down to hell, and delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto
judgment.
I
thought I had you affirmed that the two are the same in the other post.
I
asked:
Would
2Pet 2:4 and Jude 6 be references to that original sin committed before Gen
1:1? Please answer that question. Thanks.
Was
it Satan's original sin (before Gen 1:1) that caused him and his host to be
cast out of heaven or was that the result of another sin?
You
replied: "Sing F Lau we have already said that these references the Fall of
Satan which was due to his original sin. If you know what that sin was say it
plainly."
2Pet
2 and Jude 6 - speak of some angels who sinned were "cast down to hell, and
delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.
Satan's
original sin caused him and his host cast OUT OF HEAVEN unto the earth.
2Pet
2 and Jude 6 are speaking something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT event from that of Rev
12.
To
equate the two as speaking as the same thing, then the earth is hell... and
words have NO MORE MEANING!
And there are whole hosts of contradictions and inconsistencies.
Adam
Wells
I
can see your confusion if you are trying to equate Rev 12 to Satan's original
sin. It does not refer to that event at all. Sorry, I've no more time to type
now.
______________
Have you read this? Rev 12 - KJT
7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;
and the dragon fought and his angels,
8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his
angels were cast out with him.
______________
Sing F Lau
Adam,
tell me which event is linked to the casting of Satan and his host OUT OF
HEAVEN unto THE EARTH.
I always give a good answer and equally good hearing. Thanks.
