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Would a freezing place like this be less horrifyingly fearsome than the lake of fire? |
September
27, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10202884440327514
The
Lake of Fire
This
is specifically mentioned 4 times in the Scriptures, all at the end of Revelation.
Who
will end up in the lake of fire when this present world ends?
1.
Re 19:20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of
the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a
lake of fire burning with brimstone."
#
Both the beast and the false prophet (both singular) shall be cast alive into
the lake of fire.
#
The prophetic perfect "were cast" indicates the absolute certainty of
such happening, therefore as good as has happened.
2.
Re 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented
day and night for ever and ever."
#
The devil the deceiver shall be cast into the lake of fire, where his lackeys
the beast and the false prophet, are.
3.
Re 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
death."
#
Death and hell shall be cast into the lake of fire... after death and hell have
delivered up the dead which was in them, v13.
# Hell and the lake of fire are
distinct - that's quite plain. Hell spans between death and resurrection,
whereas the lake of fire begins after the general resurrection.
#
God's children shall be forever free from them (i.e. death and hell) after their resurrection unto
glory. Death and hell did harass them until then.
4.
Re 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into
the lake of fire."
#
All those whose names had NOT been written in the Lamb's book of life, those bypassed in the redemption by Jesus Christ, were cast into the lake of fire.
# Every
one whose name is found written in the book of life has been redeemed by
Christ from the lake of fire.
THEREFORE,
all of God's elect, none excepted, shall be resurrected unto eternal glory, all
based solely on the eternal redemption that God had purposed for them in
eternity, that Christ Jesus had secured for them at the cross, and that the
Father has freely applied at His own appointed time that eternal redemption to
each one of them when each was still dead in trespasses and sins, thus making
them fit for eternal glory. NOTHING else enters the equation for glorification.
Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he
also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
All
the verbs are solely the free and sovereign activities of God, independent and
exclusive of man's activities.
That's
just plain grace... unadulterated nor contaminated.
==========
26 Comments
Ken
Bussell
On
point three... Hell is a mistranslation. The Greek word is hades, equivalent to
the Hebrew word Sheol (see Acts 2.27 and Psalm 16.10). Hades is not hell. Hades
is cast into the lake of fire, which is hell.
Sing
F Lau
I'm Chinese and know a little KJ English and no Greek whatsoever. What is the
Greek for hell, and lake of fire? Thanks.
Ken
Bussell
Typically
the greek word gehenna is translated as hell. That is the word Jesus used to
describe hell (Mat10.28, et al). The greek lemmas for lake of fire are limne ho
pyr (literally lake of fire).
Sing
F Lau
Ken,
how are gehenna and Sheol, both of Hebrew origin, related?
And
if, like you claim, the lake of fire is hell itself, why different Greek
words are used? Thanks.
Ken
Bussell
The
Bible describes Sheol (Hades) as the grave, the place of the dead, under the
earth. Jews believed that both the righteous and unrighteous dead were there,
the unrighteous in torment and the righteous at rest with their fathers. Jesus
describes Hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Jesus
speaks frequently of GehennThe Bible describes Sheol (Hades) as the grave, the
place of the dead, under the earth. Jews believed that both the righteous and
unrighteous dead were there, the unrighteous in torment and the righteous at
rest with their fathers. Jesus describes Hades in the parable of the rich man
and Lazarus.
Jesus
speaks frequently of Gehenna, which literally means the Valley of Hinnom. It is
the valley west of Jerusalem where pagans sacrificed their children in ancient
times by burning them in fire. Jesus uses Gehenna as a name for the place of
final punishment for the wicked. It is because of how Jesus uses it to describe
final punishment that I believe Gehenna is the same as the lake of fire.
So
you are correct that there is an intermediate state between death and
resurrection where the unrighteous suffer in torment. But the correct Hebrew
name for it is Sheol (or Hades in Greek). Hell is an old English word and not
found anywhere in the Biblical manuscripts, and its improper use leads to a lot
of confusion, which you have rightly pointed out. The Bible describes Sheol
(Hades) as the grave, the place of the dead, under the earth. Jews believed
that both the righteous and unrighteous dead were there, the unrighteous in
torment and the righteous at rest with their fathers. Jesus describes Hades in
the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
[sing - Did Jesus use gehenna to describe final punishment or a description of the intermediate state? Or it's your own imagination? Apostle John was inspired to speak of the lake of fire as the place of eternal punishment after the general resurrection as the end of time.]
Sing
F Lau
Ken
@ "Jews believed that both the righteous and unrighteous dead were there,
t he unrighteous in torment and the righteous at rest with their fathers. Jesus
describes Hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus."
Did
they believe rightly? Do you take what the Jews believe as your authority? Is
Jesus teaching in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus a confirmation of
what the Jews believed?
What
if I say the rich man is a child of God but lived unrighteously, therefore
suffers in Hades before his resurrection to eternal glory?
Ken
@ "It is because of how Jesus uses it to describe final punishment that I
believe Gehenna is the same as the lake of fire."
If
Gehenna is the same as the lake of fire, then why did Jesus so solemnly warned
His disciples of the real danger of them ending up in gehenna? Was he confused?
Was he lying?
Ken
@ "Hell is an old English word and not found anywhere in the Biblical
manuscripts..."
If
'hell' is an old English word, how would you expect it to be found anywhere in
the biblical manuscripts - which were not in English?
Just
some honest inquiries. I abhor inconsistencies!
Ken
Bussell
"Did
they believe rightly?" Yes, I think they believed rightly. Jesus' parable
in Luke 16 is a retelling of a common rabbinic story of the time. I believe
Jesus' telling it is a confirmation of its truth. However, I think Jesus' death
and resurrection changed that reality.
"What
if I say the rich man is a child of God..." That would be the doctrine of
purgatory. I am not catholic, but I don't deny that purgatory is a reasonable
doctrine.
"...why
did Jesus so solemnly warned His disciples..." For many potential reasons.
Primarily because many within the crowds of disciples were not true followers
of Jesus. Secondarily because it was important for the disciples to know what
to teach others.
"...how
would you expect it to be found anywhere in the biblical manuscripts..." I
don't expect that. I was simply pointing out that it is a word that causes
confusion. It is better to stick with Biblical terms.
Charles
Page
Purgatory
as taught by RC is a very unbiblical doctrine, unreasonable. It implies
atonement beyond death. Atonement is finished at the cross, applied
monergistically by the Holy Spirit to the elect and availed by the regenerate
in life before death.
There is no further atonement availed by the regenerate after death as Catholics teach.
Sing
F Lau
"...how
would you expect it to be found anywhere in the biblical manuscripts..." I
don't expect that. I was simply pointing out that it is a word that causes
confusion. It is better to stick with Biblical terms."
==========
So,
it is better to just transliterate Hebrew and Greek words in translation then?
Do
you really think the KJ translators believe that 'hell' and lake of fire' are
one and the same???
Sing
F Lau
I
believe this one related thing is clear from the Scriptures:
-
The elect have no danger whatsoever of ending up in the lake of fire... The
bypassed non-elect have no possibility of escaping the lake of fire. "And
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire.".
-
God's children face a real danger of ending up in hell, and they are to walk
and live carefully to avoid it. Otherwise, Christ is just bluffing and calling
wolf when He warned His disciples [SIC] against the real danger of ending up in
hell.
-
At the resurrection, hell and death will deliver up all its guests, some to eternal
glory reserved for them in Christ, and the rest to their just eternal
damnation.
Charles
Page
Ken @ "Primarily
because many within the crowds of disciples were not true followers of Jesus.
Secondarily because it was important for the disciples to know what to teach
others."
-------
I
wonder how people evade the Lake of Fire and how they enter Heaven? Do you go
to Heaven by following Jesus and are you taught by others how to make it to
Heaven? Do you think that Jesus' death and resurrection change that reality?
Ken
Bussell
Sing,
I think understanding the original languages is far better than relying on
transliterations or translations. When you use the word hell to refer to the
intermediate state, many Christians get confused because they think of hell as the final punishment.
Charles,
Purgatory has nothing to do with atonement. It does not save those who are not
saved. It has to do with refining the elect and preparing them for eternity. So
while I disagree with the doctrine, I do not find it unreasonable.
[sing: Purgatory in Catholic doctrine: "a place or state of suffering inhabited by the souls of sinners who are expiating their sins before going to heaven."
The Romish purgatory is redemptive in nature; thus it strikes at the very heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It repudiates the finished work of Jesus Christ in redeeming His people; there is redemptive work left that sinners can do. How? In purgatory, “the souls of sinners… are EXPIATING their sins before going to heaven.”
Charles
Page
Luke
16 addresses justice and not atonement and the elect need no further refinement
I John 3:9 Their preparation for Heaven is absolute and complete, none
excepted. There are two aspects to the salvation of the elect, eternal,
absolute and unconditional through election from eternity and timely/temporal through
believer's faith conditional on the environment, and circumstances afforded the
regenerate child of God.
There
is accountability before and after death and this is shown in justice. Any
refinement takes place before death in the form of discipline and chastisement.
Hell is a real abode of the spirits while the body rests in the ground. Hell is divided by a chasm a place for the just and for the unjust. The non-elect and the unjust elect are in the torture of Hell. Paradise, the third Heaven is a place for the elect just in the eyes of God. All who die are in Hell waiting for the resurrection of the body and the final judgement. The non-elect in hell will be at that time cast into the Lake Of Fire. All the elect just and unjust will receive their reward and enter Heaven.
Sing
F Lau
"When
you use the word hell to refer to the intermediate state, many Christians get
confused because they think of hell as final punishment."
======
I'm
only stating hell and the lake of fire in the way the Scriptures uses it!
Christians
get confused because of their preconceived notions, not because of the simple
statements of truth in the Scriptures.
Sing
F Lau
When
folks disagree with what the Scriptures PLAINLY teach, they find fault with the
translation of the Scriptures. They get eloquent with their Greek and Hebrews!
I
do give the God-fearing linguists/theologians translators of the KJB a whole
lot more holy respect for their linguistic and theological acumen than the
multitudes of all others added together when it comes to the translation of
Holy Scriptures. Their Greek and Hebrews were not inferior to any modern bible
students... and their stringent check-and-balance approach in the translation
process is unsurpassed.
Hulan
Bass
I
agree with CP fully, except to the extent of the elect, during their time of
death, with the body in the grave, BUT their Spirit does not go to any form of
"hell" or torment, but BACK TO GOD WHO GAVE IT - Ecc. 12:7 so
carefully consider the CONTEXT of verses surrounding V.7. AMEN
Charles
Page
we
all need to carefully consider the context of all verses!
Charles
Page
The
Bible describes Sheol (Hades) as the grave, the place of the dead, under the
earth. Jews believed that both the righteous and unrighteous dead were there
The
unrighteous in torment and the righteous at rest with their fathers. Jesus
describes Hades in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
Ken
Bussell, it seems you are referencing two different places and you have the
Hebrews making this same. You have everyone, righteous and unrighteous in the
grave and another place where the righteous and unrighteous experience either
torture or pleasure in their respective places. Does Sheol/Hades cover both
designations?
"Thou will not leave my soul in Hell" is a promise to the unfaithful/unjust children of God that they will not be abandoned in Hell, a place of torture and that only the ones whose names are not written in the book will be cast along with Hell into the Lake of fire.
Marty-Sandy
Smith
If
there were a purgatory for refinement of the elect, it would astound me that
the thief on the cross would not need it, but would immediately be in paradise,
on the day of his death, with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sing
F Lau
Brother
Marty, purgatory is not in the Bible, so there is no need to bring it up. Such
a word would immediately complicate communication.
If there were a hell (as distinct from the lake of fire) for the ungodly children of God, it would astound me if the thief on the cross go there... the reason is simple. He had no opportunity to become ungodly to earn a place there before his resurrection to glory.
Sing
F Lau
Elder
Hulan, if the spirits of God's children does not go to any form of
"hell" or torment, then what is the hell that Jesus Christ constantly
and solemnly warned the disciples to avoid, and save themselves from? That has
always puzzled me. If it is impossible for God's children even ending up in
hell, then why all such warning?
The
distinction the Scriptures made about hell and the lake of fire makes sense.
Charles
Page
Elder
Bass, you seem to imply that the rich man lifted up his eyes from below,
indicating from the depth of the earth, grave, Sheol, Hades. All bodies lie in
their respective graves where "it" waits for resurrection and there
is no consciousness there.
"Lifting
up the eyes" is a statement of consciousness and not an indication of
logistics. Before his death, he was not aware of his unjust state (to the extent
he was willing to correct it as he becomes aware of it after his death)
Man consists of visible and invisible. aspects (Trichotomy vs. dichotomy) The visible goes to the grave and is unconscious and the invisible returns to its creator in a conscious state. This applies to all alike and not just the righteous. Paul visited this invisible abode, third heaven, and knew not if he was in the body or out however he was in a conscious state.
He
lifted up his eyes and saw things unlawful to repeat in a visible state.
He
was aware of this abandonment and was willing to perish as an outcast if it
meant the salvation of his own people of his flesh.
Charles
Page
From
Elder Hulan Bass in an e-mail message to me:
geenna
(ghen'-en-nah; of Heb. or [1516 & 20ll]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom;
gehenna (or Ge-Hennom), a valley of Jeru., used (fig.) as a name for the place
(or state) of everlasting punishment:
The
idea that this locale indicates any eternal destruction is a modern fabrication
and not of ancient Hebrew origin. It is a place where eventually trash/garbage
was burned and it did not carry any eternal significance.
I
grew up with city/county garbage sites and the trash burned/smouldered day after
day never stopping until finally it was determined that it was an environmental
issue and it was then buried. We don't burn waste we bury it or we have built
special burning plants to burn sorted material. None of this has eternal
significance.
As
usual, this requires rightly dividing scripture concerning the subject of life
after death.
It
is making an unbiblical leap to assume that Gehenna is a place of eternal
punishment.
Hell
is eventually cast into the Lake of fire and here we have an eternal destruction/damnation.
However, Hell and the Lake of fire are two separate designations. I believe this
was not a subject foreign to Hebrews and Jesus' teaching concerning Hell was
consistent with the Hebrew understanding. It is our modern understanding that
is confused and it would be foolish to believe what Jesus spoke about it is
consistent with what we traditionally believe about it.
Hell, Sheol, and Hades (all the many facets of Hell) are separate from the Lake of Fire.
Charles
Page
We
believe that eternal salvation is not the same as timely salvation yet the
scriptures use the terms everlasting/eternal life to designate both. You have
to rightly divide scriptures in the separate context of both.
So
also Hell (torture of...) and Lake of Fire, both have the connotation of
fire. both have the connotation of everlasting fire, the fire burns endlessly
and the worm dieth not; there is no cessation of burning for the non-elect but
they are cast into the Lake. The unjust, disobedient elect participate in the
torture alongside the non-elect and Jesus referenced this togetherness of his
disciples along with the non-elect. (the non-elect are in the truest sense
unbelievers and are actually non-believers)
It would be an awful place to co-exist alongside the non-elect (and also fallen angels)
Charles
Page
It
could be that even Strongs and Youngs' Hebrew and Greek word studies carry
this confusion. You are aware that scholars can be wrong about things? We rely
on Greek and Hebrew "proper" exegesis and if we have a proper
understanding of something we "think" we have the thing itself. We
claim by it we can speak the infallible words of God on any subject.
Sing
F Lau
Elder
Hulan,
"Mt
5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou
fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
=====
What
is that hell fire? Is that roasting by the Romans in 70AD... is it to be burned
in the rubbish dump in Ge-Hennom?
Whatever,
it is a REAL danger that the disciples are warned to avoid... they must, and
can do something to avoid it. They can also end up there by their wickedness...
The audience addressed are most definitely disciples.
