There were... there shall be... there are now

False prophets and false teachers are
real prophets and real teachers who
sincerely teach falsehood, i.e. damnable heresies.

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214902747297677
October 28, 2019 

#There_were...
#There_shall_be... and
#There_are_now. (Peter's future is our present!)

2Pet 2:1 KJV
¶But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

There are such things as heresies, and they are damnable; they are falsehood promoted by false prophets and false teachers. False prophets and false teachers are real prophets and real teachers who sincerely teach falsehood, i.e. damnable heresies.

You don't want to be under their ministry, do you?
The ministry of such will ruin you.
So, be careful; ignorance is no bliss in this case.

And they may be in your midst, may even be your own pastors and elders, or seminary Profs, lecturers, and instructors.

How do we recognize them? We need to be grounded in the truth of the gospel in order to be able to spot and recognize falsehood and fables; if we are not acquainted with the genuine, we are unable to discern the counterfeits and fakes. We will be like little children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

Ephesians 4 - KJV
11 ¶ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

A faithful ministry saves BOTH he who ministers and those who are ministered.

1 Timothy 4:16 KJV — Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Of course,  of course, EVERYONE thinks he is sitting under a faithful and sound ministry!!! But by the grace and mercy of God, some will be given discernment. Amen.

Pursue an Erring Brother

A Royal Breakfast at the King's Valley

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10217678317965209
October 29, 2020

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it." 
-- Thomas Jefferson

Every error is an opportunity to teach the truth if you have the truth.

Diamond's dazzling beauty is seen more clearly with a dark background. So, let the darkness of errors be exploited to manifest the beauty of the truth.

Fearing that debate may confuse the weaker saints is hyped up and patronizing, in my opinion. Would you rather that they are confronted by errors when stronger saints are not around to confront and grind the errors?

Hebrews 5:14 KJV — But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Let the senses of the weaker brethren be EXERCISED; show them how you - who are of full age - dissect, mince, and dispose of errors... if you have the truth.

There is no need to patronize the weaker saints; don't leave them in that state. Exercise their senses, make them strong.

Reggie Lee
Awesome!!!! Yes! Those who run from the debate are overly sensitive. This is a deadly error to society.

This idea of fearing debate causes another wicked idea that truth is relative, meaning, agreeing for the sake of peace, not willing to hash it out.

This validation of two opposing opinions violates logical conclusions concerning what truth is. This is absurd, borderline insanity.

Well, the opposite of this error could be....obedience.

Obeying Scripture (Hebrews 5-14) is like salve 🧴 on society, bringing in medicine by the light of truth, causing many to change their mind concerning the error.

Sing
Agreeing to disagree is a coward's copout. That's just my opinion.

Reggie Lee
Sing F Lau, your opinion is actually agreeing with the truth. And agreeing to disagree is just that, cowardly! Amen!!! I was going to say that in my first response, them being cowardly!!

Reggie Lee
Ever heard of the seeker-sensitive move? This idea of agreeing to disagree is what brought this error to the body of Christ... plus greedy for gain... get as many in the house then teach that tithing heresy...

Sing
If a man thinks I'm in error, he owes me a sincere effort to show me my error. Don't agree to disagree and leave me in my error! That's cruel and unbiblical.

James 5
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Of course, there are unteachable and incorrigible folks.

Reggie Lee
Sing F Lau, from such simply turn away...

Calvinists and Predestination

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/2147975214419
October 29, 2011

I seriously wonder how many anti-Calvinists can even state accurately what the Calvinists believe on predestination.

Also, how many Calvinists actually agree among themselves with their understanding of predestination?
=====

Sing
I saw that cartoon, and commented with these words:
"I seriously wonder how many anti-Calvinists can even state accurately what the Calvinists believe on predestination.

"Also, how many Calvinists actually agree among themselves their understanding of predestination?"

A Calvinist rebutted:
"All Calvinists who hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith or the 1689 Baptist Confession of faith or the Canons of Dordt or the Belgic Confession or the Heidelberg are all agreed on the basics of predestination. If you do not agree with these multiple witnesses of the historic Church, then what you have gotten hold of is not the Biblical doctrine of predestination but another creature entirely.

I responded:
I am only making a factual observation. Why get so personal? I observe that Calvinists differ greatly on the matter of double predestination. Is that one of the basics of predestination? (something like that, but it was deleted! That the Calvinists are uniform in their belief is fiction!) )

Another Calvinist added:
What choice do we have? If God is omniscient then all things are foreordained and therefore predestined. If God is not omniscient then He is not God...If God did not "foreordain all things in one act" then we have a God who is mutable and who is not omnipotent. Denial of the Reformed faith destroys the attributes of God.
[sing: This Calvinist is ignorant that predestination has to do with people, not things or events!]

I responded:
Barry, think for a moment. Man, weak and feeble, necessarily think that it is absolutely needful to predestine all things beforehand so that all things can be under control, otherwise, there will be no control. And he foists that idea unto God too!

God, who is omniscient and omnipotent, does not need to predestine ANYTHING in order to remain in full control over all things. He gives His moral creatures made in His image full freedom and liberty... and he would still be in control of ALL THINGS.

God DID predestine PEOPLE... He predestinated some people unto glory, and ordained their redemption through an appointed Redeemer. He BYPASSED the rest - preterition. 

There is no necessity for the omniscient and omnipotent God to predestinate anything in order to remain in full and complete control of His creatures. His omniscience and omnipotence guarantee His full and complete control over everything. Just thinking

And the first Calvinist responded thus:
'So, you are saying that God is so sovereign that he does not need to be sovereign and can deny an essential attribute of His Very Being?'
[sing: obtuse Calvinist indeed: God is so sovereign that He does not need to predestine anything and still remain sovereign!]

I responded:
Hmmmmm, how did you make a conclusion like that?
Perhaps you may like to elaborate.

I made a comment about how calvinists differ greatly on double predestination, did you delete it? If it was a glitch, I will post it again.

He responded:
Sing: I am aware that you disagree with the 1689 and are also a dogged contender for your opinions.

I responded:
I agree with the 1689CoF I just disagree with the new school baptists who pervert its teaching. Since you are not interested in looking at predestination, I will leave. Thanks.

Adam Wells
Where is your post on double predestination? I would like to read through it.
[Check here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2021/01/predestination-single-versus-double.html]

Sing
It was a comment on double predestination. The first Calvinist insisted that ALL Calvinists are agreed on the basics of predestination.

To remind him that such is not true at all, I gave the illustration of the vast difference among the Calvinists on double predestination. He deleted it!

There are ALL SORTS of people who call themselves Calvinists... it is a very popular label loved by many... there is that scholarly aura of intellectualism attached to it. I know of Calvinists who are not much different from Arminians in their theology - serious!

The truth is however, there are so many inconsistencies and contradictions in their belief system...

WCF affirms double predestination, but the 1689 CoF repudiated it.
Check here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2021/01/predestination-single-versus-double.html

Sing
So many Calvinists believe that God did predestine ALL things... therefore even this discussion on predestination!

That implies that God predestinated some to be Arminians too. And I wonder why the Calvinists tried so hard to go against God's predestination to convert those Arminians!

Every proposition has its necessary implications! Some lesser Calvinists are obviously oblivious of that!

To put the record straight, I am not a calf, nor an arm!

Sing
The combination of two wrongs does not produce one right! <LOL> Good try, though!

Charles Page
There can't be but one type of predestination it's definition stands alone.

The year was 1957 I remember that storm just like it was yesterday Dad had just bought a new 1956 Ford Fairlane for $1275!
We got a good laugh out of that Baptist couple in the ditch. We didn't know what Calvinism was then but we sure knew Baptist!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Precious virtues in perilous times

 

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10205230532538353
October 28, 2015

1Peter 3:14-16
 14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Consider the attributes needed for such an urgent and necessary ministry BY each one of us in this militantly perverse generation:

- a courageous spirit: "and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled."

- a submissive heart: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts."

- a ready and INFORMED mind: "and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you." (Informed by the word of God!)

- a humble attitude: "and be ready always to give an answer to every man in meekness and fear."

- a good conscience: "having a good conscience."

- a blameless life: that they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

May our Lord help each of us to be a light in this dark world.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/1446083587567
October 28, 2010

Ro 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
There are two distinct but related matters here.

1. So then faith cometh by hearing.
2. Hearing by the word of God.

One: 'So then faith cometh by hearing':
- tells the necessity of preaching the gospel. Preaching the gospel DRAWS FORTH the grace of faith that HAS BEEN worked by the Spirit of Christ who dwells in the hearts of the children of God. Without the preaching of the gospel, the grace of faith worked in the hearts of God's children will not be manifested. Life and immortality in them would not be made manifest! The gospel preaching brings to light the life and immortality in a child of God.

2Ti 1:10 "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 

Two: 'And hearing by the word of God':
- hearing is an activity of life. The ability to hear spiritual things proclaimed in the gospel is through the spiritual life given BY the life-giving person designated as the Word of God.

Rev 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
=====

Charles Page
"Without the preaching of the gospel, the grace of faith worked in the hearts of God's children will not be manifested."
======

This seems to be what I am saying about 'no fruit' regeneration (eternal salvation) no evidence is manifested till (temporal salvation) conversion brought about by preaching the gospel. I always emphasize a chronology between regeneration and conversion. What think ye?

Sing
Regeneration is ALWAYS prior to conversion by the gospel ministry, both LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY. Simultaneity is a LOGICAL impossibility. Whoever does not agree, indicate so, and I will gladly explain, if you really want to know and believe the truth.

'The faith worked in the hearts of God's children will not be manifested" does not mean other graces worked in the heart are not manifested. The grace of faith REQUIRES the gospel ministry to manifest it BECAUSE "faith cometh by hearing."

Before Cornelius was converted through the preaching of Apostle Paul, he was already manifesting works of righteousness. The eunuch before he was converted by Philip was already manifesting work of worship!

"What exactly did Jesus accomplish on the Cross?"

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever
them that are sanctified.

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10217669433223096

October 28, 2020

 "What exactly did Jesus accomplish on the Cross?"

Some of the popular answers to the question are:
i. He secured salvation for every one of the human race.
ii. He made salvation available to every one of the human race.

What's your answer?

Here is an apt answer from the Scriptures:
Heb 10:14 KJV - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1. What exactly was accomplished?
This was the exact accomplishment: He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
- who constitutes "them" that are sanctified?
- by whom are they sanctified?
- what is the sanctification spoken of?

2. What was the means to accomplish that?
- The one offering alone is the means by which He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
- what is the one offering?
- to whom was it offered?
- for what was it offered?
- why was it offered?

3. What is meant by "has perfected"?
- how has this one offering perfected for ever them that are sanctified? 

Add your questions.
[Those who have no questions are either: i. they have nothing more to learn, or ii. they know not what they don't know, iii. they have lots of other things to care about, iv. they couldn't care less. ]

Let's study together.

======

Heb 10:14 KJV - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

=====

There are three distinct parts of this passage.

Let's understand the logical order of the three things spoken of in the passage - the one offering that effected the perfection for them that are sanctified - that is:
- "Them that are sanctified" are there first;
- An offering was made for them; and
- And their perfection is effected by that one offering.

Paying attention to the logical order of these three things will help us to rightly understand the sanctification spoken of. It is the sanctification that is prior to the one offering.

Consider these questions:
- who constitutes "them" that are sanctified?
- by whom are they sanctified?
- what is the sanctification spoken of?

These refer to those set apart by God, i.e sanctified, separated, in the decree of election unto eternal salvation; they are set apart from the rest of the fallen mankind and given to Christ the Redeemer. They are set apart from their ruin unto eternal glory. For them, the one offering was made.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those predestinated are set apart to glorification through the one offering of the promised Messiah.

Jude 1:1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

Crucify the whistle-blower!

Mark 15:13 "And they cried out again, Crucify him."

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10205225537933491
October 27, 2015

In most places, even in the religious denominations and churches, the whistleblowers are often hunted downed, and destroyed by the establishment! It is indicative that the world has settled deeply in the churches.

In one sense, Christ Jesus was the greatest whistleblower; and they wanted Him dead! He exposed the lies, hypocrisies, and wickedness entrenched in the establishment! They will do just anything to maintain the status quo.

Mat 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

2Ti 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

When does your time end, and eternity begin?

Is it really such a difficult question?  

October 27, 2011
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/2142619720535

Please consider this question:
In your understanding of the Scriptures, when does your time end, and eternity begin?
A. At the point of my effectual call unto eternal life.
B. At the point of my departure from this life.
C. At the point of your glorification at Christ's second coming.
D. At other points in time... please state.

Please support your answer with some Scriptures. Thank you.

[As is often the case, some will rant, and then later would delete their comments.]

Sing
Thanks.
Question: "When does your time end, and eternity begin?"
At conception, you entered time.

Jerry
Either B or C...If the Lord comes first and I am alive, that would be when my time ends...If the Lord tarries, and I depart this life, that is when time ends for me...

Sing
Would you consider yourself to have entered eternity when your body lies in the grave?

Sing
Are you partly in time, and partly in eternity?
When do you enter into your eternal inheritance - at death or at the resurrection?
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Sing
Repeat:
Question: when does your time end, and eternity begin?

Sing
If anyone thinks the question is faulty or invalid, please help to rephrase the question.
Is the popular notion that eternity begins at the point of death correct?
Isn't a great change going to occur at the resurrection?
And isn't 'changelessness' an essential attribute of 'eternity'?

Sing
Will time itself end one day as in the entire time-space-matter collapse?
I believe it does.
=========
My question PRESUPPOSES that time will end one day - is it at your death or at the general resurrection to glory?

Sing
Ok... Now I understand your question. From the moment the Spirit or Holy Ghost indwells us.
========
So, from the moment the Spirit or Holy Ghost indwelt you, your time ended??? Think faster and type slower!
Good night.

Sing
No one has said the change meant corruption.
I did say 'eternity' EXCLUDES change!
Can you distinguish the two???????

Sing
Having eternal life presently IS NOT THE same as having entered the state of eternity.
A man whose relationship with God is restored has eternal life.

Sing
Repeat:
Question: when does YOUR time end, and eternity begin?
The Holy Ghost indwells you but you are still in time!
Your indwelling by the ETERNAL Holy Ghost did not translate you into the state of eternity! bye bye!

PJ Walters
I must confess to not having read all the comments. Eternity "began" for me when the Spirit brought eternal life in me. There is a part of me in eternity and a part in time. When "my" time ends, there is a part of me that has no end.

PJ Walters
But I do not know much... What are your thoughts?

Charles Page
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

All the elect whether dead or alive are waiting for that moment when time will be no more. The spirits of the dead await in sheol/hades and the bodies await in the grave and that period is marked by time.

What I don't understand fully is the fate of the non-elect during this time.

Sing
Charles Page, Thank you for that simple answer to a simple question! You sure did cut the story short!
But why is it that so many imagine that eternity begins at the point of death?

Sing
Charles Page, in your study, is there any difference between 'hades' and 'gehenna' in the NT?

Charles Page
Free-will evangelism/Christ rejecters go immediately to "hell" and Christ accepters go immediately up to Saint Peter at the gate of heaven. Scares people to 'death'.

Charles Page
I don't think that gehenna refers to the lake of fire but it refers to the torment side of sheol/hades since sheol/hades include the temporary state of 'ALL' who die, righteous and unrighteous. It defines the worthlessness of the regenerate unrighteous and the fire is not literal since the state of existence is 'spirits' body-less beings. I personally think the torment of these spirits is indescribable, beyond human comprehension.

JMPO the lake of fire may be a release from this awful torment. Not so much intensity but proximity. In this torment, men love God but in the lake of fire, men are God-haters! I would that this was preached with clarity!

In fact, it is my hunch that this is what Sinners in the hands of an angry God are about but modern Calvinists have so distorted the message as to destroy the impact!

Sing
'Hades' refers to the place, and 'gehenna' is a description of the nature of that place - would that be right?
Funny, no one is interested in this topic!

Charles Page
good! good!

Charles Page
Satan hates this truth - he is the father of the Hell lie!!!

Charles Page
"hell" has raised more money for the institutional church than any other motive and done more damage to faith!

PJ Walters
He doesn't believe that we go to heaven when we die, but to "paradise." He also believes that paradise and heaven are different.

Sing
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but *he* that *came down* from heaven, even the Son of man which *is in heaven*.
========
The Word was eternal... and at a point in time, that eternal Word was made flesh. He that came down from heaven is the eternal Word. His is eternity entering time... and that is ENTIRELY UNIQUE to Him alone! He entering time remains in the state of eternity! There was no need for Him to enter eternity. He was, is, and will always be in eternity.

How could you use that to answer the question: when does your time end, and eternity begin? I am puzzled!

Sing
No one here speaks Greek as a native tongue and the word definition has already been changed so many times...
==========
So, we are really in a hopeless situation, then!
We can't know a thing... because the word definition has been changed so many times!

Can you tell us what should be the original unchanged word definition since you know that has been changed so many times? That would help us in the discussion and study.

Sing
Here is a word definition of 'paradise'.
I don't know if it helps.
3857 paradeisov paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos; of Oriental origin cf 06508 odrp; TDNT - 5:765,777; n m
KJV - paradise 3; 3
1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground, 2a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven

Sing
Good Scriptures. How does this Scripture help to answer the question? when does your time end, and eternity begin?

Cheri Thomas
my thought is B. until that moment, I am constrained by time. after that moment, I am with the LORD, and subject to time no more.

Cheri Thomas
oh, and to qualify... I am not 'eternal', if I am an elect child of God, I have 'everlasting' life. The word eternal indicates no beginning and no end; this is Almighty God alone. I have a beginning, so I cannot be truly 'eternal'. At least as far as my limited, time-constrained understanding can now conceive of that term.

 Sing
Finally, please remember, that our intermediate state, the time between our physical death and our resurrection to glory is still in the realm of time; we are still subject to a great change before being ushered into eternity.

Hell, and the lake of fire - they are distinct

Its necessary implication: whosoever was found written
in the book of life was not cast into the lake of fire,
but was ushered into eternal glory. 

It does not imply, "whosoever was found written
in the book of life was not cast into hell". 

Hell, and the lake of fire are distinct.

Christ solemnly warned His disciples:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:
it is better for thee to enter into life maimed,
than having two hands to go into hell,
into the fire that never shall be quenched..."
Mark 9:43

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: 
and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:13

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/2136468006746
October 25, 2011 

Here is something for you to think about:
'Many of God's children go to hell.'
'But none of God's children go to the lake of fire.'

Are these statements true?
Give your thought-through comments.

Michael
lake of fire is definitely eternal punishment but hell is not that, right? but what does it mean?

Sing
Can you explain what that means, please?

Michael 
Please help to explain further or else I think hell and lake of fire mean the same thing.

[One Matthew made many comments but deleted them all!]

Sing
So what does 'lowest part of the earth' has to do with 'hell'?
What does 'the lowest part of the earth' mean in Ps 139?

Michael
errr, u can quote from scripture...but also write in plain English aka easier to understand...my mind is young and not complex

Michael
okie guys..make it simple...do write in this format for the meaning
lake of fire - eternal punishment
hell - <please fill in the blank>

Sing
So, please get back to the subject.
Matthew, your first comment has diverted the discussion off the subject <LOL>
See how easy to go off tangent?

Michael
wah..it seems hell is used in two contexts... same as the word "world" rite?

Sing
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into *hell*, into the fire that never shall be quenched: <<< Here it means lake of fire.
=========

Please tell us who was Jesus addressing when he said these words?
Will such end up in hell?
Will such end up in the lake of fire?
Is 'the fire that shall never be quenched' the same as the lake of fire?
Is there anyone in the lake of fire now?

Sing
Brother Michael, follow along, ask questions and make comments. We are learning Scriptures together!

Sing
'If this is not eternal, why the words: worm dieth not?'
----------
Do the words 'worm dieth not' mean they are eternal???
The worm dies not with respect to who? To those being eaten up - that's all it means. Nothing eternal about it! Unless of course, you believe in eternal worms!

Who are those addressed?
Are they in danger of hell?
Are they in danger of the lake of fire?

Michael
sounds like eternal worms to me..coz it says the worm dieth not...normally worms die for sure...but why in this verse the worm dieth not...looks like in the lake of fire where it is eternal ..unless i am looking in the wrong context..

Sing
Don't think of literal worms. Literal worms can't exist in literal fire!!!

Sing
If this is just grave, how those worms do die as a matter of fact.
==========
Beyond the graves, the Bible speaks of hell and lake of fire... and they are NOT the same!

Rev 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What lessons can you draw from here?

Sing
Mark 9:31-48
EVEN the disciples are in real danger of ending up in hell... otherwise Christ wasted his words warning them against that imaginary danger.
(But take note: hell is entirely different from the lake of fire!)

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day...
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all...
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

These words were addressed specifically to the disciples

'His disciples... unto them... the twelve... unto them... if thy hand... if thy foot... if thy eye...'

Good night!

Sing
Are there anyone in the lake of fire now? <<< Surely not, heathens and pope still walk the earth.
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Where are all those who have died?

Michael
rev 20:14 ...it seems hell is one stage to endure before going to the lake of fire...rite? and in this context, for rev 20:14 non-elect go to hell first and then go down to the lake of fire...it definitely doesn't apply to elect rite from my understanding...elect is saved from the lake of fire...rite?

Sing
Yes. Correct. These words were told to the disciples. He was speaking to them while referring to those that would never believe Him and also never in the book of life.
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'Thy... thy... thy... ' second person singular, addressing each of the 12 disciples personally!
Christ is not speaking of those that would never believe Him.
STICK to the text... not some imagination!

Sing
Luk 16:23 And in *hell* he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. <<< Here it clear declare right?
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Here it clearly declares WHAT???
State it clearly WHAT is declared!
So, is this 'hell' the same as the lake of fire?

Michael
summary wise...not the same...even though hell got a different meaning and context but it is just not the same as lake of fire for sure...

Sing
Hello, we are studying Scriptures, not you or the RCC believe or reject. Stick to Scriptures. So, 'this flame' EQUAL 'the lake of fire'?????????
Avoid SOUND-BYTE. Get the SENSE by rightly dividing the word of truth!

Michael
errr, if can, I can recommend something ...we can write short points on the context of hell and lake of fire, and then put bible verse to support it....in that way, we can grasp the understanding without reading all posts in forum....my 2 cents opinion...

Sing
Michael, good suggestion. But there is a great advantage in discussing rather than reading what is written. In a discussion like this, minds are engaged more rigorously... that's what study involved.

Michael
of course... but then forums like this and writing in summary and using it hand in hand is a powerful tool...again, just my 2 cents opinion...for example, in a meeting, we can mention a lot of ideas and give suggestions and next action taken....after that, there will be a summary of the meeting...from there, then we can grasp the overall understanding of the meeting...for more details....we can always go to forums for reference.

without the summary, to be honest....ppl can get lost and lost direction...i am in that situation

Sing F Lau
'Lake of fire is always hell and eternal punishment.'
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Prove this please... from Scriptures.
If you can't DON'T repeat it again!
Rev 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

'Death and hell were cast into the lake of fire' - how could lake of fire and hell be the same?

You might as well say the well and Matthew who fell into it are the same!!!

[one Matthew Ong has made lots of silly comments but deleted them all]

Sing
Luke 16:20-31 is a literal illustration of what Christ warned in Mark 9:42-48!
If it is impossible for God's children of ending up in hell, what is the point of all the warnings to them???????
It is impossible for God's children to end up in the lake of fire... and therefore there is ZERO WARNING against going to the lake of fire.

Sing
without the summary, to be honest....ppl can get lost and lost direction...i am in that situation
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Don't despair yet.... the summary and conclusion will become OBVIOUS as we go along studying and discussing!
That way of learning the truth is better... our mind is engaged searching the Scriptures!

Michael
rev 20 of hell and book of Mark version of hell is different le...somemore addressed to different ppl...dont u think so? but in Mark, can explain further below?

43 .....hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Michael
without the summary , to be honest....ppl can get lost and lost direction...i am in that situation
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Don't despair yet.... the summary and conclusion will become OBVIOUS as we go along studying and discussing!

That way of learning the truth is better... our mind is engaged searching the Scriptures!
=======================

my mind is getting sharper already....lolz

Sing
Where the poetic turned to spiritual truth and foretelling of future events for a certain rich man and also Lazarus.
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Which part is poetic, and which part is spiritual, and what future event being foretold?
Nothing is foretold... it is a parable warning God's children (the rich ones) against the conduct of the rich man. Many of God's children are covetous!

Sing
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
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When delivered unto Satan for destruction?
And when might the spirit be saved?
When is the day of the Lord Jesus?

Sing
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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Indicate how these verses deal with the subject at hand.
Do you want to prove that none of God's children go to hell?
Do you want to prove that none of God's children go to the lake of fire?
When you quote Scriptures, you must state your intention - i.e. what you want to prove!

Michael
errr... the lake of fire is separation la...those ppl not in the book of life is to be cast into the lake of fire

Sing
What do you mean by 'paths of God's wrath'?

'It seems to me that the beggar had a really bad life more worst than Job, but he was chosen as the elected of Saints. And the rich man had a very good life, but he was not chosen as the elected of Saints.'

Why do you say that the beggar had a really bad life, more worse that Job's??? Is one of them not chosen as the elected of the Saints?

What is the basis of your conclusion that the rich man was not chosen as the elected of the Saints? Is it because none of God's children ever end up in hell?

How is this comparison related to the subject under discussion?

Sing
Sing. I am for eternal security. Children elected by the Father of Jesus Christ who art in thrice holy heaven never ever will end up in the lake of fire. However, I like to point out, the lake of fire is NOT separation from the Lord, aka Lamb.
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So you have affirmed this statement: ''But none of God's children go to the lake of fire.'

Do you affirm or deny this statement: ''Many of God's children go to hell.'

Forget about fire and brimstone for now!

Sing
Matthew, how does the proposition that 'many of God's children go to hell' militates against the doctrine of eternal security?

Remember, none of God's children go to the lake of fire - you have affirmed that.

Michael
matthew...please tell us that a typo error here

Sing
Do you affirm or deny this statement:
''Many of God's children go to hell.'
<<< If the word hell here is just grave, most will end up in the grave.>>

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How do the Scriptures speaks of 'hell'?
Is the parable of the rich man telling us, he is in the grave, 'hell' or 'lake of fire'?

Sing
I did ask you to clarify, which by the way, you have not.
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What did you wish me to clarify? I overlooked it. Sorry.

Sing
And how did you conclude that the rich man belonged to that category? Because he is in hell?

Sing
And how did you conclude that the rich man is among one of those mentioned by Christ? because he is in hell?

Michael
nites..let's continue on tomorrow..

Sing F Lau
Yes. I do, none of God's children(Elected of Saints) do go to the lake of fire. God's children(Both elected of Saints that are Jews and also Gentile) will never go to lake of fire.
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Are you saying that the rich man is in the lake of fire now?
What do your John 8:44 and John 1:13 prove, and how are they relevant to the questions?
What questions are you answering with the two passages?

Arnel Manalo Sambo
A blessed day brothers Im brother Arnel would you mine if may I sit in?

Sing
Welcome. All students of God's words have equal privilege and responsibility at the study table.

Sing
'I believe Jesus Christ implied that rich man is NOT the elected of God even he is a wealthy Jews of the bloodline in that parable.'
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What is the basis of your conclusion 'I believe Jesus Christ implied that rich man is NOT the elected of God'?

How does the comparison of Job and Lazarus relate to the topic under discussion?

Keep focus... otherwise, so much said that is irrelevant to the subject at hand.

Sing
'If we think that ministry of Jesus Christ is already very good. Please hear the gospel preached from the apostle to the gentile and the letter written to the hebrew!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂'
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What are you trying to say?
There is no need to pit Paul against Jesus! Both will not contradict but are in perfect harmony!

Sing
Let me ascertain what you are saying. Lots of gibberish.
I am lost with what you are trying to say, and how what you are saying is related to the subject under study!!!

Did the 'elected of saints of Jewish bloodline people' who died BEFORE Calvary and those ''elected of saints of Jewish bloodline people' who dies AFTER Calvary end up in the same place or different place?

Were there any 'elected of saints of GENTILE bloodline people' before Calvary? if there were, where did they go?

Is the truth Jesus taught in Lk 16 applicable to the Jews BEFORE the Calvary and no longer applies AFTER the Calvary?

Thanks.

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p/s people who take the liberty to make statements must be held responsible to answer questions on the statements made. Otherwise, they remain stupid.