September
13, 2021
https://www.facebook.com/groups/PrimitiveBaptistgroup/posts/4620128448038585
I posted this inquiry and the following exchanges took place.
Please
help...
1John 5:16 ¶ If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1.
Who does the pronoun 'him' refer to - 'any man' or 'his brother'?
2.
What's the sin unto death?
3 What's the death spoken of?
4.
What happens when God's children commit a sin unto death?
5.
If a brother sins a sin not unto death, then why the need of God to give life?
What is this life that God gives in answer to prayers?
Just
short answers will do.
Thank
you
Billie
1.
Who does the pronoun 'him' refer to - 'any man' or 'his brother'?
A. The
brother who has sinned
2.
What's the sin unto death?
A.
A sin unto death is that sin which is done presumptuously or high handed as in
Numbers 15:33
3
What's the death spoken of?
A.
The natural life being cut off, or timely removal from the church kingdom.
4.
What happens when God's children commit a sin unto death?
A.
As stated before their surety and hope in this present life is cut off or
removed.
5.
If a brother sins a sin not unto death, then why the need of God to give life?
What is this life that God gives in answer to prayers?
A.
Continuance in the hope of your forgiveness of sins in this gospel kingdom
I hope this helps. These are my understandings of this scripture. If in error please throw a mantle of mercy over my attempts.
Sing
Thanks, Billie
@ "...
give him life for them that sin not unto death..."
So
you are saying that the singular "him" and the plural "them" refer to the same
people?
Billie
Yes, I believe the “him” is the specific brother sinning and he is a part of the
larger group of “them” that sin not unto death.
I
do also believe this is in reference to spiritual brothers.
Sing
Thank
you, Billie. I was thinking it means given to him who asked (i.e. for his sake) but for
those he asked. Do I make sense? Pardon my poor English.
Billie
I
think the “him” is the object of the prayer submitted by he who asked. We may
ask pardon for those whom we see sin a sin not unto death. I have taken this to
be an instruction to us in our brotherly relationships in the church. We aren’t
overstepping our bounds to pray for our brothers overtaken in a fault, however, we are told that should one be presumptuous and high-handed in his
transgressions, that this brother is not to be the object our asking pardon and
“life” in the gospel kingdom. I hope this helps.
Sing
Billie, Thanks. Make sense.
Thank
you so much.
@ "3
What's the death spoken of? The natural life being cut off, or timely removal
from the church kingdom."
A hearty amen to that.
Micah
Consider
v. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is
begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
I’m
of the opinion that the phrase “sinneth not” in verse 18 would make sense if
you understand it in the connection with v16+17, therefore, understanding it as,
sinneth not unto death. In light of this, I personally lean towards the idea
that the sin unto death is the absence of a regenerated heart. If this is
correct the death would be an eternal death.
Hopefully, you get some more feedback because I’ve not heard a view that completely satisfies me yet.
Sing
Micah, Not likely. A brother, a child of God can commit BOTH a sin not unto
death, and a sin unto death. Verse 16 deals with a brother.
Micah
Sing, It doesn’t necessarily have to be a spiritual brother under
consideration. Do you have an opinion?
Sing
No,
I don't have an opinion yet.
Ok,
since it is not necessarily a spiritual brother, then let say for example it is
a natural/national brother that you see sinning and pray for him, what life is
given to him by God? Honest question. Thanks.
Nic
1)
him = brother/believer
2) willful
habitual sin such as idolatry/malicious rejection of Christ and His commandment
3) physical
4) judgment
of the flesh Hebrews 10:30 KJV "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense,
saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."
5) I
believe you are mixing up two views. A sin not unto death will be covered by
the blood of Christ. A person's eternal standing with God was chosen before the
foundations of the earth, our prayers can not influence that. It is my
understanding that the life that God gives in answers to prayers is mercy and
compassion, enlightenment, and fewer stripes here on earth.
Again these are my understandings…please refute or correct if needed.
Sing
Nic @ 5. "A sin not unto death will be covered by the blood of
Christ."
Does
this mean that a sin unto death is not covered by the blood of Christ?
What
are the two views I'm mixing up?
I'm
asking two questions; I'm not aware that I'm expressing two views.
Doesn't
1John 5:16 necessarily imply that the one same brother can commit BOTH a sin
not unto death and a sin unto death? Am I wrong?
Thanks for being a good sounding board.
Nic
No
sir I apologize. I didn’t express myself properly. And I’m likely not going to
here as well. Not two views but rather two intentions of use for one word. So
we have physical death and eternal death/condemnation. I understand that a sin
not unto death is a sin such as we’re offerings made in the OT. Elect persons
can and perhaps will make these mistakes…..Christ atoned for these sins.
A
sin unto death, I understand to be not only one to the judgment of the flesh but
also the condemnation of the spirit as well. If we are predestined to justification
and glorification, elect, names recorded in the Lambs book of life, can we
commit a sin unto spiritual death? It seems to me only non elect people could
commit these or perhaps commit these habitually and continually willfully…I’m
thinking of Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV
[4]
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of
the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted
the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall
fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Can this person be elect? Or was his religion in vain? To quote Jesus, could or would an elect person blaspheme the Holy Spirit….maliciously? My logic and understanding tell me no. So, I’m understanding John to be saying here, not to pray for someone who is committing a sin unto spiritual death….because they are not a brother….perhaps they are an example of someone from Matt. 7:21-23.
Now,
it’s very possible I’ve misunderstood this passage from 1John…but I think verse
18 gives some clarity
1 John 5:18 KJV "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Surely
the sin in this verse is the sin unto death.
Does
this sound reasonable? Thank you for corresponding.
[sing: someone sins a sin unto spiritual death... because he is not a brother. IF someone is not a brother, he is already in the state of spiritual death, how could sin a sin unto spiritual death?]
Sing
Nic, Thanks. Give me a week to digest those thoughts.
Nic
Sing, by all means. Please let me know what you come up with. Have a great day.
Sing (a week later)
Nic, Let me start again:
1.
Is the one same "brother" the subject of both a sin not unto death
and a sin unto death? That
is,
1.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask,
2.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is unto death, he shall not ask.
Isn't
the one same brother capable of both "sin not unto death" and
"sin unto death"?
Nic
Sing, but that’s not what it says…
1
John 5:16 KJV "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and
he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto
death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."
I’m of the understanding an elect person will not sin a sin unto death.
Nic
Perhaps
for more context
Jeremiah
7:13-16 KJV [13]
And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the Lord, and I spake unto
you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye
answered not; [14] Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my
name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your
fathers, as I have done to Shiloh. [15] And I will cast you out of my sight, as
I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim. [16]
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for
them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
Jeremiah 14:10-12 KJV [10] Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. [11] Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. [12] When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.
Sing
Nic @ 14Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name,
wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers,
as I have done to Shiloh.
--------
What
is that "house which is called by my name" - heathen or God's very
own people that prophet Jeremiah was commanded, "Therefore pray not thou
for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make
intercession to me: for I will not hear thee"?
Thanks.
Nic
Sing
F Lau well…it must need to be rightly divided
Romans
9:4-8 KJV
[4]
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the
covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
[5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who
is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. [6] Not as though the word of God hath
taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7]
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In
Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the
flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are
counted for the seed.
Who
is our brother? Who is the true bride of Christ?
Have you considered Judas Iscariot? He was considered a brother for a time….but was he in the end?
Sing
Nic, Let's read 1John 5:16 again.
1
John 5:16 KJV — If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,
he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death.
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
- "his
brother" is the subject of the sentence, is it not? Yes, or no?
- This
is a brother in a spiritual sense? Yes, or no?
- This
brother is capable of both - sin not unto death as well as sin unto death? Yes,
or no?
- For
the former, pray for him. Yes, or no?
- For
the latter, pray not for him. Yes, or no?
Thank you.
Nic
I
do not understand that a spiritual brother will sin a sin to death…
The
verse does not say that.
It
says there is a sin unto death and he does not say we shall pray for it.
Verse
18 clarifies this concept
1
John 5:18 KJ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of
God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Now,
why would he contradict himself 2 verses later?
Thank
you.
Sing
Nic
Saltz There is no contradiction. There is a misunderstanding on your part. You
take "sin unto death" as eternal in nature.
Whit
Sing, Do you really want to learn or just argue?
[this man seems annoyed by my way of learning. sing]
Sing
Whit, I learn as I ask questions; I learn when some answers are not
consistent with what's stated in the passage; this way I eliminate/exclude
implausible interpretations.
What about you?
Nic
Sing, I do indeed understand, sin unto death as eternal in nature. Can you
show me why I’m wrong? I feel like I gave you plenty of reference texts for the context of my understanding. Can you show me some for your understanding?
Thank
you.
Those
who are born of God are spiritual brothers….not all those who cry Lord, Lord
are spiritual brothers…
Matthew
7:21-23 KJV
[21]
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of
heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many
will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and
in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye
that work iniquity.
Just
because man professes something doesn't mean it’s truth.
If
you wish to describe a spiritual brother as someone who may or may not be elect
unto salvation, then your interpretation or rendering here is fine….
Sing
Thanks,
Nic.
I
understand that it is the SAME BROTHER being spoken of :
-
if he sins a sin not unto death, pray for him;
-
if he sins a sin unto death, don't pray for him.
You
can decide whether he is a spiritual brother or a blood brother.
Once one presupposes that a sin unto death is eternal death, then a different person must be dragged into the case [because/since a spiritual brother cannot possibly commit a sin unto eternal death.]
Nic
Sing, did I presuppose?
Matthew
12:31 KJV "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven
unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto
men."
[this sin can only be committed by those Jews in Jesus' time who witnessed the miracles of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy but attribute them to Beelzebud. sing]
If
all manner of sin is forgiven man, except 1…which will not be forgiven, if it
won’t be forgiven, we can’t repent of it, nor can anyone pray for our
forgiveness…we are told to pray without ceasing…
1 Thessalonians 5:17 "Pray without ceasing."
Ephesians 6:18 "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints."
For
all saints…
Why
would John tell us not to pray for a spiritual brother sinning a sin unto
death?
Can you show me how the sin unto death is not eternal death or spiritual death? Pretty please. I’d love to understand properly.
Nic
Sing, this
is John Gill’s commentary. I found it very interesting. As you said earlier, I
have been trying to digest the meaning and Truth of this verse. You have me
questioning my understanding which I thank you for.
1 Corinthians 8:2 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know."
1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."
Check the lengthy commentary here:
[Gill states specifically that the brother is spiritual in nature, sing]
Elbert
To
me, all that we call brother is not of God, God's children sin day by day because
sin is in the flush but these sins is not willing, for I might get angry with
my wife say something that would hurt her She is a sister in the Lord but I
didn't set out to hurt her yes I do ask her to forgive me and I go to God and
ask him to forgive me not for my eternal salvation but because of his
blessing
Glenn
1
John 1:7 is the key to understanding the whole book of 1 John. “But if we walk
in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and
the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” The book of 1
John contrasts FELLOWSHIP with RELATIONSHIP. John’s epistles are written to the
family of God. Our RELATIONSHIP to Jesus Christ, which will NEVER be lost, was
established by His blood cleansing us from all sin. FELLOWSHIP requires
walking…walking in the light as he is in the light.
Rom.
8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free
from the law of sin and death.” Jesus Christ did NOT abolish the law of sin and
death. It is STILL in effect! The wicked are STILL under the law of sin and
death, which is why there will be the everlasting punishment of the wicked.
God’s children, however, have been MADE FREE from the law of sin and death.
Regarding
RELATIONSHIP, God’s people DO NOT commit a sin that will bring them back under
the law of sin and death and cause them to be entirely lost (1 John 3:9).
Regarding FELLOWSHIP, God’s children can and do sin, and our sins affect our
fellowship with the Lord and with each other (1 John 1:8-10).
For more, see
Elder Sonny Pyles’ sermon on “Whosoever Is Born Of God” at
https://primitivebaptistsermons.org/sermons.php.
Primitive
Baptist Sermons
Sing
Glenn, Thank
you, Sir.
So,
is a sin unto death a sin committed by a child of God which brings forth the
death of fellowship?
Glenn
Another
possibility...would you say that Ananias and Sapphira committed a sin unto
death (Acts 5:1-11)?
Sing
If
it is impossible for a child of God to sin a sin unto death because the sin
unto death is TAKEN/UNDERSTOOD as eternal in nature, as some insist, then it is more impossible, or even oxymoronic, for someone already in his native state of spiritual death to
commit a sin unto spiritual death.
Do
I make sense?
Only
someone who is alive (in fellowship with God) can sin a sin that brings the
death of that fellowship.
I
think I see the light now.
Thank
you to all who so kindly responded to my inquiry.
