A flaming red cardinal of God's handiwork...No, not those impostors of the RCC!
Kees
Consider these passages when read with a more accurate rendering of words in their plural form
"Do not marvel that I said to you, 'Y'all must be born again."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but y'all do not receive our testimony."
"If I have told y'all earthly things and y'all do not believe, how can y'all believe if I tell y'all heavenly things?"
Jesus is speaking to a representative of Israel and about the nation of Israel.
He says you all must be born again... why is that?
Well He says: “…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
I think that this verse may be significant because of the kingdom promises that God gave to ethnic Israel in the Old Testament that have yet to be fulfilled.
I think that the significance of Christ telling all of Israel (Y’all) that they must be born again is in keeping with Paul’s defense of their future in Romans 9-11 which ends with Paul saying:
“Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” – Romans 11:25-29
What do you think?
(And yes, I'm from the south!)
But I think God means what He says and we better respect it.
Hart
Forensic study of priestcraft toxicology yields conclusive data: "Reform Suppositional Expository Sermon Smell Ass Suppository"
Kees
Hart, The tasteless ignorance of your comment speak for itself...
Sing F Lau
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
Isn't this translation far better?
'Thee' is second person singular.
'Ye' is second person plural.
When a translation fails to show that distinction, it is a BAD translation.
People ignorantly think that 'thee' and 'ye' are old English.
I think it is precise English! And I am a chinese lad from the far east!
English is my third language.
I read a short but helpful article here:
"Do We Need Thee and Thou? Thy and Thine?"
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/scripture/thee-and-thou.htm
Sing F Lau
All the Jews were members of the OLD EARTHLY theocratic kingdom of Israel by natural birth. Many of them were not among the elect of God unto eternal salvation, and they will never be born again. So, so to insist that "ye must be born again" means "Christ telling all of Israel (Y’all) that they must be born again" is just a figment of wild imagination.
It is only by the new birth from ABOVE that any will SEE (spiritual perception) the NEW kingdom of heaven... and enter (believe and embrace) the NEW... kingdom of heaven.
The OLD earthly kingdom of theocratic Israel is the old administration of the one covenant of grace. God's children among the Jews worship the LORD through those old covenants terms.
Without the new birth by the free and sovereign activity [i.e WITHOUT instrumentality of the gospel] of the Spirit, NONE shall see, much less enter the kingdom of heaven established by Jesus Christ for the new administration of the covenant of grace.
All God's children, whether Jews or Gentiles, worship God in spirit and in truth under the new administration of the same covenant of grace.
Lloyd
There is a translation new testament only which I believe has caught the sense just as the authorised had it's called the ISV.
Sing do you have any bible study on your view of the covenant?
Sing F Lau
Alan, Gill has a very useful section in his Body of Divinity.
Take a look at Book IV. There are seven short chapters.
He discussed the Covenant of Grace and its various administrations in the history of redemption. He gave an excellent overview. Chapter 1 is here.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/Doctrinal_Divinity/Book_4/book4_01.htm
Lloyd
ok thanks I shall study it.
Kees
Sing, personally, I would advocate that we just use Y'all and forget complicating matters with the KJV. You provided zero passages to defend all of your many assertions.
Salvation is of the Jews and the Kingdom promises as well as the New Covenant promises were made to them, not the Gentiles.
We partake with them by being grafted in according to Romans 11.
Sing F Lau
You speak as though 'thou' and 'ye' are something peculiar to KJV. thought it was common precise usage of the English of that time.
It is not because i have not provided biblical passages... we are just disagreed in our interpretation.
In God's purpose of redemption, national Israel is finished, with all its religious paraphernalia. Christ warned of it, the apostles warned of it... it has taken place... but men refused to accept it!
Kees
Sing, show me from Scripture... you have never even tried.
The key phrase that you used regarding the KJV is: "English of that time"
That's not the common tongue of the West anymore.
Sing F Lau
I would trust a translation that differentiates 2nd person singular from 2nd person plural, as in the original languages.
If you choose something else that does not show the distinction, God bless you.
KJT has served the church for hundreds of years... so I prefer to use the same translation used by the old school baptists of the past. It was good for them... it is good enough for me.
It may not be good enough for a progressive westerners. It is still mighty good enough for a chinese lad in the far east.
So, stick to the version best suited for you.
Lloyd
The ISV is a psalms proverbs new testament and retains the singular -plural pronouns.
Progressive westerners! huh sin man is in a state of regression just like the western church!
Lloyd
Joh 3:7 Don't be astonished that I said to you, 'All of you must be born from above,' - ISV rendering
Sing F Lau
Joh 3:7 Don't be astonished that I said to you, 'All of you must be born from above.'
======
"All of you" would necessarily include Nicodemus, and all the non-elect among the Jews!
"All of you" would also necessarily include the non-elect?
Does the indefinite second person plural 'ye' expresses the idea perfectly well?
Why reinvent wheels? Why do people have such hatred against 'thee' and 'ye'?
Lloyd
he is saying to Nicodemus you must be born again He is saying anybody who enters the kingdom of heaven must be born again.
In Mthew 8 He says you cannot enter unless you become as a little child, but of course both are only possible for the elect. Same as 2nd Peter 3 is speaking to the elect but he says God is not willing that any perish (but the definite article is He is not willing that any of the elect perish.
Lloyd
Inccidently I have no problem with thee and thou it's the other funny words like dissimulation and those other ones that start with L.
Sing F Lau
Does John 3:1-2 give any indication of the spiritual state of Nicodemus?
Many believe that Nicodemus was already a regenerated man because of his perception of spiritual truth expressed in those few words.
Others would disagree vehemently. They choose the translations that assume Nicodemus was still dead in trespasses and sins, and Jesus told him the need to be born again.
John 7: 50 Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) 51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Kees
Sing,
"All of you" would necessarily include Nicodemus and all the non-elect among the Jews!
"All of you" would also necessarily include the non-elect?
All of you is a reference to national-ethnic Israel... all Israelites must be born again to fulfill Kingdom promises given in the Old Testament:
Isaiah 65:17-25; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Zechariah 8:1-17
This is in keeping with Romans 11:25-26: "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
All of Israel must and will be born again...
Alan, you are right, with this Jesus clearly teaches that unless a person is born again they shall not see the kingdom.
Not a physical rebirth but a spiritual rebirth. And not a literal becoming children, but a childlike faith.
Sing, Nicodemus was chosen from all eternity past and God brought him to faith in His own timing. That is how I understand Nicodemus.
Sing F Lau
Kees,
'Ye' and 'all of you' are different, are they not?
You said, "All of Israel must and will be born again... "
Please define 'All of Israel' in the statement above.
And when will 'all of Israel must and will be born again'?
Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Isn't this a statement of truth that applies to all the elect, whether Jews or Gentiles?
But you insist that the matter be restricted to the national Israel? I am puzzled at your obsession with national Israel.
John has a universalistic view of the gospel - THE WORLD, THE WORLD, not just the Jews... but you insist, the NATIONAL ISRAEL.
Lloyd
In the context of the conversation, Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about spiritual things that he as a teacher of Israel should know, However it is hard to see how all Israel in an ethnic sense will be born again when Jesus told the Pharisees you will die in your sins. Surely it can't mean all ethnic Israel at the time of Christs return. It is important to understand that all does not mean every! If all ethnic Israel is saved then either they are all elect or the doctrine of election is false.
Lloyd
Sing, Nicodemus' light was being turned on, are we not all in that state of being dead in sin and tresspass before conversion?
Sing F Lau
A man must be regenerated before he can be enlightened!
Lloyd
what I did say, not that it was turned on that, it was being turned on, he was being awakened out of his tomb.
Sing F Lau
So, I didn't misunderstand you. He was being awakened out of his tomb - i.e he was being regenerated, being brought to life! Someone in the tomb is dead... being awakened out of the tomb is being quickened and made alive. That's how I understand you words.
A person in the state of being dead in sin and trespasses is INCAPABLE of being converted (by the preaching of the gospel)... unless by conversion you mean the divine power that converts a man from death to life.
A man dead in sin and trespasses need to be regenerated before He can be converted.
Lloyd
OK that's what I mean, "no one" not Nicodemus, not the elect even can see the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again. Jesus has to to a Lazarus on them, of course He does that by the Holy Spirit.
Gotta go milk me cows.
Hart
"LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me." Psalm131:1
Lloyd
@ Richard, no but it's their interesting to discuss don't you think
Hart
@ Alan, I like the twin cylinder Triumph motorcycle.
What seems pointless is the exchange of ideas with reform debaters or reprobaters.
The Covenant remains hidden to them refusing to keep God's word. I do not say any elect will be cast into everlasting fire, but all the ranting and raving by reform suppositors cannot save anyone here in this time world. Reform literature is a scourge upon the people.
No preaching by the unlearned would be better for the LORD's people.
How much faith, and in who > "faith in Christ" vs. "faith of Christ" ?
How much belief, and what to believe > reform toxicology ?
Moving targets are troublesome.
Reformers think new birth ist induced by a spiritual 'midwife' or
'co-creator'.
Not a single one of God's elect will be "Left Behind".
The King James Translation is reliable for doctrine.
Brother Sing is correct in saying that militant arminians also use KJV.
Be it known, richie read no Greek, speak no Greek, write no Greek.
Those posting here are English readers, most without a Bible.
Without a Standard for discussion, what good is ?
Thanks
