Can you distinguish rejuvenating snow from killer volcanic ash?
What do you see? Does it make any difference?
All men are naturally bound to repent.
What does it mean?
Is that the same as - all men are naturally bound to believe Jesus as their Savior?
Is there any difference between the two?
Lloyd
In The Cause of God Gill clearly stresses the Christian duty, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to call and command sinners to repent. "All men are naturally bound to repent, argues Gill, because they have naturally broken the law. Commanding them to repent is putting them under the curse of the law which they have broken in their natural state. To Gill, this is a law-ordained need for repentance in the legal sense. What man has broken, he has a duty to mend. This does not mean, however, that man can mend what he has broken and obtain legal righteousness, but he is still a debtor to the law for having broken it. The law forces its demands on every one because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."Pastor Sing do you agree with Gill on the above statements. If so what you have been telling me is much more palatable. :)
Sing F Lau
Alan, thanks for pointing out Gill's teaching above.I completely agree with what Gill said above.
But it is likely that you don't quite understand him yet. Be patient and let me explain.
Please note carefully that Gill is speaking of all men as the creatures of God under the covenant of creation. Under the covenant of creation, every creature is under the moral government of God... and are duty bound to obey the law of God for them as God's creatures.
As God's creatures who have broken the law of God, it is the duty of every men to repent and turn from their sins. No man has any right to remain in sin.
You MAY, and very MANY, have mistaken what Gill said above as addressing ALL MEN to believe in Jesus Christ. Gill did no such thing... because Gill was sound minded enough to know that such NONSENSE is plainly contradictory to God's revealed will. It is only God's redeemed who are under obligation to believe the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior, because that is the truth for them!
The non-elect has NO DUTY to repent and believe the Lord Jesus Christ... That would tantamount to God demanding a man to believe a LIE! The thrice holy and righteous God NEVER requires any man to believe a LIE!
Distinction - God dealing with His creatures under the covenant of creation, and God dealing with His redeemed under the covenant of grace - is the ESSENCE of sound theology.
Many new school calvinists, while mocking and bully the woolly minded Arminians cousins, are themselves no less woolly.
Hart
What great difference would the world suffer if John Gill had never spoken?
Lloyd
When is righteouness imparted or imputed (probably better) to the believer if justification and regeneration is already operating in a man from eternity past?
Sing F Lau
Alan, I do get cross when people are not listening, and say weird things despite the fact that things have been stated so clearly so many times.Do you ever think when you make statement and ask question?
Where did you get the idea from that ..."justification and regeneration is already operating in a man from eternity past"?
Let me state again in the plainest manner about the subject you inquired above.
In eternity past, a man did not exist yet, so how could justification and regeneration be already operating in a man?
Concerning justification, there are several distinct aspects. Please take careful note... I don't want to repeat again!
May our Lord grant your understanding of this most amazing truth... There are 5 distinct aspects spoken of in Scriptures:
1. JUSTIFICATION DECREED in eternity past for ALL the elect. Some people refer to this as eternal justification, i.e justification was already decreed/purposed for the elect in eternity.
2. JUSTIFICATION ACCOMPLISHED for all elect at the cross. This is when righteousness is LEGALLY IMPUTED to all elect.
- Legal condemnation came upon all represented by Adam when his original sin was imputed to all his posterity. Legal condemnation is applied personally at conception in the womb!
3. JUSTIFICATION APPLIED at effectual call of each individual elect to eternal life and salvation.
- This is when righteousness is PERSONALLY APPLIED or IMPARTED to an elect at effectual call to grace and salvation.
- This is when justification and regeneration became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY.
- Justification and regeneration became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY when redemption is applied to him personally at God's approved and accepted time... by His sovereign and free grace, WITHOUT any man's help or cooperation.
4. JUSTIFICATION EXPERIENCED by faith of each believing child of God through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
Faith cometh by hearing... saving faith is receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.
- Abraham experienced this in Gen 15:1-6. His justification BY faith took place in Gen 15:1-6.
- Justification was applied to Abraham when he was still in Ur, Gen 11. His justification by God's free grace took place in Ur, Gen 11.
5. JUSTIFICATION VINDICATED CONSUMMATED at the glorification for all the elect. On the great day of judgment, there will be a public vindication of all the justified.
Please stick to what I have written above... and make sure you understand them before moving to some other things. If you have any question, please ask... but ask sensible things please... else your sheep may get cross!
Now please answer your own question: when is righteousness imparted or imputed (probably better) to an elect?
(I change your 'a believer' to an elect... because 'a believer' ALREADY has righteousness imparted/applied to him... otherwise he can't possibly a believer!)
And please note very carefully that there is a VAST difference between these two words, IMPUTED and IMPARTED. Please check a good dictionary and tell me the difference.
Thank you.
Sing F Lau
Richie, please explain your statement 'What great difference would the world suffer if John Gill had never spoken?"I am cracking my head trying to understand. Thanks.
Richie
Reformers seemingly do not accept the King James Translation which is the best commentary on the Bible. Bro Vaugh has well expressed truth on my wall, saying that other theologies do not exist, only lies of man.I do not say that John Gill is a liar. But the Church has never depended upon a man. Literature is the art of written works. If no supplementary books had been published, the word of God stands sure and reliable. IMO, there's escessive dependence upon Confessions, Creeds and literature among reform toxicologists! False religion is also founded by a man.
I've never depended upon John Piper, John F. MacArthur, John Gill, Dwight L. Moody, Baskin-Robbins or "Billy" Sunday, although I did swallow the baited hook of Dr. David Jeremiah and his NIV toxicology. From these I repent, with exception of Baskin-Robbins.
Richie speak no greek, read no greek, hear no greek.
The King James Translation feeds me sufficiently.
Without John Gill's literature, I was eternally saved by Jesus alone.
Psalm 12:6-8
Thanks, I enjoy your posts.
Lloyd
I realise there is a difference between imparted and imputed, I just couldn't remember which was a applicable. Sorry. You seemed to be saying in earlier posts that you are already regenerated and justified before believing? but now you say at the cross we are justified through Christs sacrifice? Is that correct?Sing F Lau
Richie, I appreciate your conviction. It would be so much easier if every is of the same mind.
For which reason Apostle Paul said,
" 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under... the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."
Hart
Well I'll trust you for it... whereas I was sitting on the fence post and got 'splinters' so now sit just a railing. Sing F Lau
I will lend you a pairs of 'tweezers' to remove the splinters!
James 5:
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
A coat of mail would help but would be rather bulky!
Sing F Lau
Alan@ "you seemed to be saying in earlier posts that you are already regenerated and justified before believeing? but now you say at the cross we are justified through Christs sacrifice? Is that correct?"
I repeat what I have said before. You read it carefully, understand it, and tell me the answer to your question.
3. JUSTIFICATION APPLIED at effectual call of each individual elect to eternal life and salvation.
- This is when righteousness is PERSONALLY APPLIED or IMPARTED to an elect at effectual call to grace and salvation.
- This is when justification and regeneration became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY.
- Justification and regeneration became OPERATIVE in a man PERSONALLY when redemption is applied to him at God's approved and accepted time... by His sovereign and free grace, WITHOUT any man's help or cooperation.
4. JUSTIFICATION EXPERIENCED by faith of each believing child of God through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
Faith cometh by hearing... saving faith is receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.
- Abraham experienced this in Gen 15:1-6. His justification BY faith took place in Gen 15:1-6.
- Justification was applied to Abraham when he was still in Ur, Gen 11. His justification by God's free grace took place in Ur, Gen 11.
====
Let me give you one crucial hint: there is a VAST difference between these THREE aspects of justification:
- LEGAL justification accomplished at the cross.
- VITAL/PERSONAL justification applied at effectual calling.
- EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith through the gospel ministry!
And if you cannot give me correct answers to your question, it means you have understood NOTHING of what I have said!
Lloyd
No I understand, on the face of it you believe exactly what I believe. what I don't understand is how you say that is different to what today's reformed baptists believe? Because as far as I can tell that is what they believe. Plus that post was much more helpful when you break it down into the different catorgories. Bear with me and I will learn from you. I guess I'm stumbling at why we don't make the call universal and allow God to call out the called out?
Sing F Lau
Alan @ "I guess I'm stumbling at why we don't make the call universal and allow God to call out the called out?"
Why don't we make the call universal?
By this, I assume that you mean the gospel call should be to sincerely offer salvation to all, and commanding every one to believe Jesus as their Savior.
Such a practice would be in perfect conformity with the doctrine of universal redemption.
But the Scriptures declares particular redemption, and the gospel ministry is ordained for GATHERING God's children (elect already regenerated by the free and sovereign grace of God WITHOUT the help of preachers, and completely fitted for eternal glory) into NT churches.
Practices MUST be conformed to doctrine.
The Chinese has a saying: Don't join a girl's head to a boy's body!
Sing F Lau
The new school calvinists are in essence Arminians who love an elitist 'reformed' label. And many RBs love such 'classy' label.
Lloyd
well I'm not good with putting things like the confessions do, but I know this that Jesus Christ called me out of darkness into His glorious light, when he did He made a new person a person that wanted to follow and serve Him and give up everything else, He truly changed my desires and affections. I call that regeneration actually I call it being born again. When He done that I knew my sins were forgiven and I was free, I call that justification. But at that time I knew nothing about election, reprobation, prdestination or any of those big words. And all I can say that God and God alone saved through His son and by His Spirit and word. How's that is that the order you are telling me things work? Jesus went out to sow and as He did some seed fell here and some fell there, some had ears to hear and some did not but none the less He still sowed the seed so shouldn't we? As far as RBs go I'm really not one; they are a little stiff normally for my likes. I belive the word and if someone can show me Ie'v got it wrong then I'm open to correction.
Lloyd
I like your sense of humour.
Sing F Lau
Alan, thank you for sharing your experience. I wholly concur with you. When we were dead in trespasses and sins, in a state of condemnation and death, God effectually called us out of that sin and death and condemnation, without us or any man doing anything to assist God... The effectual call to grace and salvation ENABLES us to perceive spiritual things...
And having been born again, we still remained UTTERLY ignorant of the truth of our salvation by God's free grace. It is only through the gospel ministry - of various quality and usefulness - that we begin to learn bits and pieces of the glorious truth of our salvation by God's free and sovereign grace. Lots of things that were taught to us, though sound good, are actually so imprecise and inexact that they actually contradicted God's word...
That's is why we are interacting here, that we may learn and study together the word of God.
You said, "Jesus went out to sow and as He did some seed fell here and some fell there, some had ears to hear and some did not but none the less He still sowed the seed so shouldn't we?"
Actually this parable is about how disciples should hear the preaching of the word. That is the purpose of the parable.
But I wholly agree with the point you are making - about the need of going forth to preach the gospel.
Those who are called by Christ and send forth by Christ's church should go to preach the gospel wherever the Spirit of God lead them.
Who do you think I disbelieve or disagree with that?
This is the specific reason why the risen Lord give pastors and teachers to His church:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and SOME, PASTORS and TEACHERS;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
