We live in times when it wasn't stupid enoughto buy into Napoleon Hill's "Think And Grow Rich".
We had to stupidize it further into
"Wink And Grow Rich". Edmund Lau
October 20 at 8:56am
Sing F Lau
How subtle and devilish is the perversion:
Faith as an instrument to MANIFEST the justification that has already taken place HAS BEEN TWISTED into
Faith is the instrument to SECURE one's justification from God by His free grace - as if that is still justification by free grace!
The new school calvinists preach ANOTHER gospel.
Sing F Lau
Faith manifests what you already possess by God's free grace.
It is "the just (justified ones, by the free grace of God) that shall live by faith" - repeats the Holy Scriptures.
Faith DOES NOT SECURE your justification before God.
How can an un-justified man have faith to begin with? An unjustified man is still a man in his native state of condemnation of death! How could such a man exercise faith in order to secure his justification before God?
Might as well believe that a dead man may eat in order to obtain life!
The old school baptists declared:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
But the new school calvinists anathematize this statement of truth by the old school baptists.
They cannot distinguish forensic justification by free grace, and experiential justification by their faith! And they are so cocksure of themselves!
Ming
There you go again preaching your antinomian gospel. :)
It's not about doctrine. It's about CONTROL. Let the masses think that they have a CHOICE and/or the ability to CONTROL their destiny - then lure them to enter into a system so that you... can CONTROL them - their thoughts, behavioural patterns, values, etc.
The real Gospel is dangerous because it short-circuits ALL of our attempts to deify ourselves and our addictiveness to CONTROLLING ourselves and other people.
Hodges
Good thoughts Bro. Sing. To those who don't agree, I ask you to please find me just HALF of a verse in the Bible where faith is EVER referred to as an instrument, or a necessity in order to be eternally saved.
Thank you Edmund Lau Kok Ming. I take the term Anti-nomian as a compliment. I am glad to be against the laws that man tries to place on the FREE grace of God, and I am glad to be free of the burdens man tries to put upon people to control them, and keep them in bondage and fear.
Johnson
The instrumentality of the Word of God:
The truth is that God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved through faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm constitute extraordinary cases, yet ordinarily the... witness of Scripture states the following:
• “Ye are already clean because of [or through] the word I have spoken to you.” (John 15:3).
• “Of His own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”(James 1:18).
• "...knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance." (1 Thess 1:4, 5).
• “
Many who deny the instrumentality of the Word are often admirers of John Gill, and yet not even Gill supports their claims of “immediate regeneration.” Gill affirms, on page 534 of his Body of Divinity, the instrumentality of the Word:
"Though after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to believe: 'received ye the Spirit', says the apostle, 'by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith': Ga 3:2 that is, by the preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."
The instrumentality of Faith
Again, Chapter 14, “Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions of Faith, summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God saves the Elect:"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
The Belgic Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith without works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our Righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness. And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits…”
Below is an explanation concerning the instrumentality of faith that I sent to one man who vigorously denied this truth, calling it a “works-righteousness.” Examine my explanation yourself to see if it accords with Scripture:
“The Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Eph. 2:8; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Phil 3:9).
Faith is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved because of our faith or on the grounds of our faith, as if we can produce a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith into a meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet another form of works-righteousness. This may be part of your zeal in denying “duty-faith” – your legitimate desire to guard against any form of “works-righteousness.”
However, though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos, and pistei, which can all be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does not come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see faith.
Again, Ek pisteos (“by”, “from”, or “out of” faith) describes faith as that which logically precedes a person’s justification. Faith is the gift of God which is given to us so that we may cling to Christ, though it is never the efficient or ultimate cause of justification, the dative use of the noun pistis being used in an instrumental sense (see also Rom. 3:28).”
Likewise, not only faith but repentance as well, is an essential grace-gift that the Elect must possess for salvation. Though faith and repentance are not produced within ourselves by our own merits, we still must possess these gifts of grace, wrought by the work of Christ for His Elect on the Cross, for us to see heaven. The Westminster Confession of Faith guards us from error in regard to the necessity of repentance:
"Although repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ; yet is it of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith, 15:1-3).
Thus, we see that an “instrument” is not the effective cause of a thing, and that God unites us to Christ by the instrumentality of faith upon the hearing of the Word. To believe these things is not “works-righteousness” but are truths defended both biblically and historically.
Richardson
Hebrews 10 "14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,... saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."
(If the preacher does any good, God has already been there first and done the work.)
Ming
Never read Gill. Where I come from, Gill is the thing the fish use to breathe.
But as a kid, when I read my battered copy of the Good News Bible, I learned that God loved me. I sang in Sunday School that "Jesus Loves Even Me".
It was only much later that warped-brained theologs came along and taught me nonsense like the volition of man vs. the sovereignty of God, the instrumentality of faith, forensic justification, sola fide, etc. Christians have sure come a long way towards developing a system of belief (and CONTROL) based on their own degenerate, wicked, self-glorifying, warped, debased, God-hating, morally-reprobate yet loving the veneer of morals (read: hypocritical) minds.
Johnson
Edmund, that sure is a lot of adjectives to use. Justification by faith is a central tenet of the Scriptures and one need not be a theolog to read and understand my plain scriptural proofs above that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Ming
Christians are so quick to compartmentalise people. So I don't believe that faith is instrumental in salvation - that means I must've been influenced by Gill. Hahaha! Gill? Siapa tu?
I also believe that people should learn to share everything - am I then a Marxist?
Ming
C'mon, Trevor, as a kid in Sunday School, if no one had taught you this nonsense about faith SECURING salvation, you wouldn't be REPEATING it today and calling it a central tenet of Scriptures.
Truth is, Scriptures have always made it clear ...that those who exhibit faith are the ones who belonged to God in the first place - not that anyone can exhibit any faith who never belonged to God. To belong to God simply means that God already forgave/accepted that person - i.e. JUSTIFICATION must inevitably precede REGENERATION which in turn precede FAITH.
Christians have always mistaken the fruit of salvation as the root-cause or instrument of salvation. Funny, don't you think?
Ming
Back when I still cared, I argued with my Calvinist brothers.
Time now, what's the point? To quote Saloma: "Apa hal dengan semua sandiwara tu?"
We live in times when it wasn't stupid enough to buy into Napoleon Hill's "Think And Grow Rich". We had to stupidize it further into "Wink And Grow Rich". It wasn't stupid enough to subscribe to Hannah Withall Smith's "Christian Secret to a Happy Life" - we had to go on to nonsense like "Don't Sweat The Small Stuff", "Chicken Soup For The Soul" or even better - "Who Moved My Cheese?"
From that perspective of comparative idiocy, actually the old fundie gospel of "Believe and thou shalt be saved" doesn't sound so bad after all. Okay, my Arminian-Calvinist-Chocolate-Vanilla-Strawberry-Giraffes-Charismatic-Emergent-Cheesy brothers, you win. I agree with you. Faith is INSTRUMENTAL to salvation. Just hold the extra mustard and mayonnaise.
Johnson
Edmund, I agree with you that faith is not a cause of salvation. A thing can be an instrument without being a cause, hence ek pisteos in the greek (by, through) faith.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, I suggest that new school calvinists like you are confused on two basic points in the issue under consideration.
First, you confuse forensic justification by the free grace of God, with the experiential justification by believing. When you get this right, you will save yourself from lots of confusion and inconsistencies.
Every elect of God will experience forensic justification by God's free grace... no if and no but.
Not every child of God (an elect that is already justified, regenerated and adopted in his effectual calling from the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) will not experience experiential justification. Experiential justification is CONDITIONED upon faith... and hearing and believing is CONDITIONED upon the capability and opportunity to hear THE gospel.
That's the first matter. And it is intimately related to the next.
Second, you confuse the salvation (which is eternal in nature) that is by the free grace of God through the eternal redemption that is in Christ Jesus) with the salvation (which is temporal in nature, affecting the well-being of God's children) that is conditioned upon the responses of God's children to the ministry of the gospel.
No one is denying that the ministry of the word is ordained to save God's children... to ensure their WELL-BEING in this present life while they wait for their eternal glory, of which they have been perfectly and completely made fit, WITHOUT THE ministry of the word.
If you can get this two related matters, you will save yourself from lots of inconsistencies and contradictions... that are INHERENT in the new school calvinism.
I speak as a former new school calvinist for TWENTY years. The Lord showed pity on me and delivered me from all inconsistencies and contradictions.
May the Lord bless you in a similar manner.
Johnson
Thank you for that information Sing.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, you can qualify 'faith is the instrument of justification" ALL YOU WANT.
Enough of your reformed shibboleth!
The PLAIN fact still remains: an unjustified man is incapable of believing. Why? An unjustified man is still under the condemnation of death.
Sins brought the condemnation of death.
Righteousness brings the justification of life.
That righteousness was IMPUTED at the cross to all elect.
That same righteousness is APPLIED to an individual elect PERSONALLY at effectual call out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation
Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
No justification, no righteousness; no righteousness, no life.
No life, no hearing; no hearing, no manifestation of faith.
Is that simple enough for SOUND MINDED new school calvinists?
Forensic justification involves RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, if you have 1% of John Gill's honesty, it would have done you great good.
You quoted from page 534. These words PRECEDED those you quoted from the same section 'Instrumentality of Regeneration' starting from the bottom of page 533.
Do you understand them? I know you rejected them, but do you understand them? John Gill knew what he was saying because he has a full grasp of the whole matter more completely than midgets like the new school calvinists.
Gill was able to make the distinction between the EXERTION of the principle of grace without instrumentality of the gospel ministry, and the drawing it forth into act and exercise through the instrumentality of the gospel. I hope you get the point.
It is one paragraph but I have broken them up into four parts, to highlight middle parts of the paragraph. Take careful note of the 2nd and 3rd parts below. The portion you quoted is the 4th part of the same paragraph.
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Fourthly,
The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be "born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logov is used in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers; "though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon 1:10)...
Yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in the new creation...
Wherefore this is rather to be understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and the drawing it forth into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word, by which it appears that a man is born again; so the three thousand first converts, and the jailor, were first regenerated, or had the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and encouraged by the ministry of the apostles to repent and believe in Christ: whereby it became manifest that they were born again.
Though after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": (Gal. 3:2), that is, by the preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt.
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If you have 1% of John Gill's honesty, you will tell us the WHOLE truth of what Gill said, and the precise distinction he made.
You have NOT represented John Gill truthfully!
I always wonder how will new school calvinists who SLANDER and DESPISE Gill as a hyper ever be able represent him honestly!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "The instrumentality of Faith
Again, Chapter 14, “Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions of Faith, summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God saves the Elect:"The grace of faith,... whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
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Chapter 11.2 already stated without any ambiguity that the grace of saving faith is ONE of the SAVING GRACES that accompanies the forensic justification by God's free grace.
I sometime wonder whether the new school calvinists ever study the 1689 for themselves.
Here is 1689.11.2
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."
Faith is one of the saving graces that accompany a justified persons.
This justification by God's free grace is spelled out in paragraph 1. Justification by God's free grace enabled a justified elect to believe and rest on Christ and His righteousness.
This act of believing and resting in Christ EXPERIENTIALLY justifies, demonstrates, certifies, evidences and manifests his justified state by God's free grace. Faith is the only instrumental for the justified to EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace.
Gen 15:1-6 speaks of that - the experiential justification of Abraham. Abraham was forensically justified by God when God effectually called him out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation when he was still in Ur.
In the same chapter, paragraph 4 reads:
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
The above paragraph states three distinct aspects of justification:
- Justification was decreed for all the elect before time.
- Justification was legally accomplished for all the elect at the cross. IMPUTATION of righteousness took place.
- Justification was vitally applied to each elect personally at effectual call when Christ is actually applied unto each elect. IMPARTATION of righteousness to individual elect takes place.
When this happens, an elect is justified PERSONALLY.... in contrast to DECRETALLY, and LEGALLY.
When PERSONAL justification has happened by free grace ALONE, this makes believing possible. In believing and resting in Christ and His righteousness, the justified experienced the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. Faith alone does this, not any other saving graces (i.e graces that are effects of the salvation already bestowed by God's free grace).
Faith and works EVIDENCE the justified state of a man.
We see FOUR DISTINCT aspects of justification: DECRETAL, LEGAL/ACCOMPLISHED, VITAL/APPLIED, EXPERIENTIAL & EVIDENTIAL.
Faith has to do with the last aspect!
New school calvinists MESSED it up with the LEGAL and VITAL aspects!
Johnson
Sing, In the quote by Gill that you used in your quote above (after you called me a liar), are these words: "...which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word..." Gill connected regeneration with preaching and the Word.
Page
Regeneration connected by a subsequent chronological preaching not concurrent with regeneration and certainly not prior to regeneration.
Johnson
So Page, people are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching and then they hear preaching in a totally unconnected event after regeneration and are then converted?
Page
Not an unconnected event otherwise you got it right.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, I did write: "You have NOT represented John Gill truthfully!" If that makes me call you a liar, THEN you said it.
That is precisely your problem. You would only choose Gill's words out of context, and that which suit your notion.
Just what EXACTLY is "excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word"? Please tell us.
In what way EXACTLY did Gill connect regeneration with preaching and the Word? How are they connected?
Is preaching connect with regeneration in that it is an instrument to bring about regeneration, OR OR OR preaching is connected to regeneration in that it evidences the regenerated state? Tell us the exact connection.
Please tell us. I promise you a good and honest hearing. But no shibboleth please.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ So Page, people are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching and then they hear preaching in a totally unconnected event after regeneration and are then converted?
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May I inquire, was the Ethiopian eunuch regenerated BEFORE he trudged on his donkey-drawn Rolls Royce all the way to Jerusalem to worship God, or when he heard the gospel from Philip?
May I also inquire, was Cornelius regenerated before Peter was sent to preached the gospel to him? Or was he regenerated under the preaching of Peter?
Acts 2:5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Those devout Jews, from out of every nation under heaven, who made the arduous journey to Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel, were they already regenerated before coming to Jerusalem, or were they regenerated [SIC] by the preaching of Peter on the day of Pentecost?
And please, if this fact has escaped your notice until now - why did apostle Paul describe the recipients of his epistle to the Romans as "the called of Jesus Christ... beloved of God, called to be saints..." EVEN THOUGH they were still in urgent need of hearing the gospel from Apostle Paul. Paul gave every indication that those he termed as "the called of Jesus Christ... beloved of God, called to be saints..." have not heard the gospel from others.
The proof is here in his own words: Ro 15:20 "Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."
Please answer these inquiries from the perspective of your gospel regeneration notion. Then I will see how idea measure up to these observations. I will your your view SERIOUS consideration.
Patron
I have a gay relative that after rationalize that salvation by free grace and justification is only by what God has done on the cross with Christ..... he (gay relative) respond: "why Christians tell me that salvation is a free gift and depends only on Christ alone dying on a cross 2000 years ago and not by a sinner works nor collaboration.... when NOW unless I work to stop my gay lifestyle I'm not saved?
To put it in another way he ask : "why a christian tell me at firsts that nothing I can do will make me saved and is ONLY what Christ has done 2000 years ago really saves me, BUT on part 2 of this gospel : unless I do my part to quit being a "homo" I will never be saved!.... sound to me like works salvation??"
Patron
Sing you are classic!! I like your humor : "If you have 1% of John Gill's honesty, you will tell us the WHOLE truth of what Gill said, and the precise distinction he made." True.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @"The truth is that God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved through faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm constitute extraordinary cases, yet ordinarily the witness of Scripture states the following."
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This idea of 'ordinarily' and the 'extraordinary' ways in regeneration is a LIE to cover another lie - i.e. regeneration through the instrumentality through the gospel ministry.
The words of the Lord Jesus Christ is sufficient to repudiate both.
" 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
Please note those words, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." These words EXCLUDE the silly and fanciful notion of 'ordinary' and 'extraordinary' cases, the so called 'normal' and 'exceptional' cases. Take it or leave it - there is only ONE WAY for every elect of God... either it is EVERY ELECT regenerated by the immediate and direct activity of the Spirit WITHOUT the gospel instrumentality, or it is EVERY ELECT regenerated by the Spirit THROUGH the gospel instrumentality.
The 'normal' and 'exceptional' view is invented to COVER UP the lies of gospel instrumentality in regeneration.
A lie always needs another lie to cover it up!
I have never heard of a farmer who claim that the activity of the wind upon his farm is dependent upon his presence and activity at the farm. Of course I don't know that many farmers, even though I was a farmer for 20 years. However I have heard very many seminary-trained new school calvinists who insist that ordinarily the Holy Spirit depends upon their presence and activity for Him to regenerate the elect.
I think a few years of hard knock on a farm may knock some sound sense into their woolly heads
Patron
I hope as a good pastor you weep in your inner man while correcting us from error
Hart
Dearest arminian scholars, the kid in Sunday School is taught that 'faith in Christ' is the power unto new birth.
Suppositional arminians, if the preached gospel brings eternal life, then your pastor must be called, 'Father' .. Stop bashin...g Catholics for same belief.
Sing F Lau
Yoel@ I hope as a good pastor you weep in your inner man while correcting us from error.
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It is because I weep for my new school calvinists brethren here in Malaysia - we were together as Reformed Baptists for many years, and when the Lord taught me the errors of my way and left the new calvinism, I was branded a heretic - that I raise these matters often. Trevor and his fellow RBs in the Philippines joined hand with them in their fight against me!
Now the pseudo RBs here, because they reacted against the truth I brought to them, is swinging further away... and are becoming more and more Arminians! That's the reports I get from friends in those churches!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ The Belgic Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore we justly say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith without works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us, f...or it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our Righteousness. But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness. And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits…”
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Faith is only an instrument with which we embraced Christ our righteousness - AMEN and AMEN.
The justification of life is that which enables the justified to embrace Christ by faith. So, faith is not in any way an instrument to secure justification. Rather it is the instrumental with which a justified man embraced Christ!
New school calvinists, with their colored glasses, read the Belgic Confession as saying faith is the instrument of securing justification before God - which is clearly NONSENSE, because an unjustified man is still under the condemnation of death.
The Confession also says, "And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits." EXACTLY. We are justified by God's free grace. All the righteousness of Christ was IMPUTED, and APPLIED to us by God's free grace... and faith is the instrument to keep us in communion with Christ in all His benefits.
There is NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING said about faith being the instrument to be justified before God. That is a LIE invented by the new school calvinists!
Our faith justifies us in an experientially ("keep us in communion with Christ in all His benefits") and evidentially (evidences that we are indeed among God's children).
But the confused and haughty new school calvinists messed it up with forensic justification by the free and sovereign grace of God!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does not come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see faith.
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Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Christ IS NOT THE SAME as faith is the instrument to get one justified before God.
If you think they are the same, then you are very confused! The former is true, the latter is a lie.
How does God, through free grace, enable a man to believe? HOW? HOW? Except a man be born again, he cannot - no ifs and no buts. No man dead in trespasses and sins is enabled to believe! And a man cannot be born again UNLESS righteousness has be applied to him personally, i.e UNLESS the justification of life has taken place, with regeneration and adoption as the necessary and logical consequences.
Trevor, you rightly said, "God monergistically taking initiative to move the man..."
Just what is that initiative? I will spell it out what the Scriptures say: God effectually call - by His free and sovereign grace, yes, MONO-ergistically - an elect of out his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This enables him to believe.
To effectually call an elect out of his state of sin and death, these divine monergistic activities must take place:
- forensic justification to remove condemnation of death through the APPLICATION of Christ righteousness to that individual elect personally.
- the forensic justification by God based of Christ righteousness gives warrant to the Holy Spirit to regenerate the justified elect.
- that whom the Spirit regenerated, the Father adopts into the divine family and given to all the rights and privileges of God's children.
The above monergistic activities of God (in that logical order and number) ENABLES a child of God to believe. IF and WHEN the gospel of what God has done to save him is brought to him, he is CAPABLE of being called to believe the gospel.
Being enabled to believe is just that. The grace of faith is worked in him by the indwelling Spirit in his heart. This grace is to be called forth or drawn out by the preaching of the gospel. If the gospel ministry do not reach them, that grace of faith in them is not called forth, no believing is manifested.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "let us not mistake a logical priority with a chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we see faith we will see ...the new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see faith."
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May I inquire AGAIN: when was Cornelius regenerated before Peter was sent to him, or when Peter was preaching to him?
Was Cornelius exercising saving faith - i.e. receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness - before he heard the gospel or after he heard the gospel from Peter. Do remember that 'faith comes by hearing' - that's the faith we are talking about.
And what about the eunuch? And Lydia? and the devout Jews converted on the day of Pentecost?
And think about Abraham, won't you? When was Abraham regenerated? And when did he exercise saving faith? Simultaneously, or a wide gap of many years in between?
I think it quite self evident that if you are willing to answer these simple questions, your own answers will debunk your notion of the simultaneity of regeneration and gospel conversion! You are still stuck with gospel regeneration.
Gospel regeneration is very attractive because it gives it adherents an aura of indispensability in the eternal salvation of God's elect... in helping God to produce His children.
You would agree that helping God to produce His children is a WIDE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE from helping God in nurturing His children whom He has produce all by His free and sovereign grace. So many are not contented with the great honor of doing the latter... they insisted on the former too! How arrogant and presumptuous! Shameless usurpers!
Patron
Trevor@ I know experience is Not valid to support Truth, but the biblical accounts of God-fearing people that were showing regeneration and its fruits way before they hear the gospel are unbelievable but my personal experience was just like that! Way before I hear a gospel presentation I remember being so move by Jesus movies (don't mock me please) and every time somebody mention His name I felt warm around my chest and heart. I will never teach that or make it a doctrine but, sadly the human heart is way to addicted to religion and it's heroes : no matter what they need to gain God's favor by their moral efforts and works...
That's why the True Gospel and the way God's has chosen to redeem His people still too good to be true even among His elect.
Hart
Yoel, how refreshing, a believer giving testimony of heartfelt beliefs prior to gospel conversion(s).
Even more so refreshing, that a believer isn't led by his/her wicked heart or let feelings to become the litmus test of regeneration.
Sadly, so many Pentecostal practitioners conjure 'feelings', supposing they're led by Holy Ghost design. Biblical doctrine is needful for the believer's conversion(s).
Brother Sing shares biblical insights and is ridiculed by RB religionists, those with institutional certifications, entombed in so-called, 'suppositional apologetics', and usually with modern curriculum texts. Whereas Brother Sing is a student learning daily.
IMO, Religionists tend to be full-time teachers, rather than listeners.
Patron
I heard you Rich!... I'm be detoxing from neo-Calvinist by the Holy Spirit. They got me for a while... they make you feel good if you join them and they love praises of men. They can get applauds all day long but if someone clap during worship = bad
Hart
Clapping is generally invoked for entertainment values, do we suppose?
Johnson
Yoel, Thank you for your testimony. I was blessed by it.
Patron
@Richard. I believe everything was made for and by HIM, to point to HIM, including clapping..... God never mention clapping just because He "foreknew" we are gonna be into clapping celebrities; is mention because of the ONE worthy of it....
Hart
Worthiness is imputed, not earned. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Patron
@ Richard ... and since is all about being biblical (by the way I'm conservative in worship because the fear of religious men)
Check it out Rich:
Psalm 47 (New King James Version)
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.
1 Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples!
Shout to God with the voice of triumph!
2 For the LORD Most High is awesome;
He is a great King over all the earth.
3 He will subdue the peoples under us,
And the nations under our feet.
4 He will choose our inheritance for us,
Johnson
Here is more from John Gill showing that he linked the Word of God in Scripture to the work of regeneration:
Gill says "that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation" (Body of Divinity, Chapter XI, Book VI).
Again, Gills Commentary: on John 11:43:
"Ver. 43. And when he had thus spoken,.... To God his Father, in the presence and hearing of the people; he cried with a loud voice; not on account of the dead, but for the sake of those around him, that all might hear and observe; and chiefly to show his majesty, power and authority, and that what he did was open and above board, and not done by any secret, superstitious, and magical whisper; and as an emblem of the voice and power of his Gospel in quickening dead sinners, and of the voice of the archangel and trumpet of God, at the general resurrection;
Lazarus come forth; he calls him by his name, not only as being his friend, and known by him, but to distinguish him from any other corpse that might lie interred in the same cave; and he bids him come forth out of the cave, he being quickened and raised immediately by the power which went forth from Christ as soon as ever he lifted up his voice; which showed him to be truly and properly God, and to have an absolute dominion over death and the grave."
Gill linked the Word of God with regeneration.
Patron
well I guess Gill was wrong!
unless Trevor has a ill issue giving up his view and by all means will try so see what he is looking for.... I can't wait for Sing response since Sing was for two decades a hard core anti-Gill and a neo-calvinist camper.
Johnson
Yoel, I am merely illustrating that Gill cannot be used as an ally for Hardshell beliefs.
Patron
ok
Sing F Lau
Yoel, I was never a anti-Gill, much less a hard core one. I heard much about him through Spurgeon. What surprised me most is that Spurgeon greatly recommended Gill, but Gill was slandered and despised left and right by new school calvinists... who adored and admired Spurgeon
I felt that something was terribly wrong somewhere. It slowly dawned upon me over the years that even though Gill was recognized and honored as the epitome of 'calvinism' of his era, he is now slandered and despised by later calvinists. I concluded that the new school calvinists have moved away from the gospel. And instead of damning themselves as semi-arminians, the slandered Gill as hyper!
Sing F Lau
Trevor, in Gill's understanding, in many places in the Scriptures the term "word of God" refers to the life-giving divine person, the eternal Logos, the second person of the Trinity. The eternal logos, the word of God, is indeed directly an...d immediately linked with regeneration.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 17:2 "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
Concerning John 11:43, it was the life-giving voice of Christ, the Word of God, who brought Lazarus, from the dead, without any aid or help from men.
Gill wrote this: didn't you read? " he being quickened and raised immediately by the power which went forth from Christ as soon as ever he lifted up his voice; which showed him to be truly and properly God, and to have an absolute dominion over death and the grave."
There is NOTHING, NOTHING whatsoever attributed to the preached word by the apostles or any man. You picked a wrong passage. It is a passage that debunks your notion!
You will notice, it is ONLY AFTER Christ Himself has brought Lazarus to life, that the apostles played some role... in removing the grave clothes. BEFORE that the apostles CAN DO NOTHING! Well, they did stand HELPLESSLY by the tomb! Ya, they did do something, after all! Maybe, had they been absent, Christ would have been IMPOTENT to raise Lazarus!
After Christ brought Lazarus to life, ALL BY HIMSELF, he told the disciples "Loose him, and let him go."
What a picture of the role and function of the gospel ministry: to set free those who Christ Himself has brought to eternal life: to loose them from errors and falsehood and superstitions, and to set them free by the gospel truth.
You can always, if you want to, find in Gill's writing things that will give semblance and impression that the preached word is instrumental in regeneration. Either Gill was being inconsistent, or his understanding on the subject developed and grew for the better over the long 52 years of his ministry, or he is misread by readers who wear colored spectacles.
People can even pick verses in the Bible that support all sorts of vain notions... all the easier for you to do so with Gill's writings!
Sing F Lau
The chapter on Regeneration (Book VI, Chapter 11) in Gill's Body of Divinity, let me summarizes:
Section II - The springs and causes of regeneration: efficient, moving, meritorious, instrumental.
(sing: very few modern theologians are capable... of making these distinctions, much less understand what Gill wrote!)
1. The efficient cause of it; who is not man, but God.
a. First,
i. Not man; he cannot regenerate himself
ii. The nature of the work clearly shows that it is not in the power of men to do it;
iii. Regeneration is expressly denied to be of men
b. The efficient cause of regeneration is God only
i. God the Father, who is the Father of Christ
ii.. God the Son has also a concern in regeneration,
iii. The Holy Spirit of God is the author of regeneration
2. The impulsive, or moving cause, is the free grace, love and mercy of God
3. The resurrection of Christ from the dead is the virtual or procuring cause of it;
4. The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of God, and the ministers of it.
In the last section on instrumentality he mentioned about the word of God as the instrument and made THREE IMPORTANT OBSERVATIONS. New school calvinists are oblivious of these:
1st, that the 'word of God' meant the Eternal Logos when found in the context of regeneration.
2nd, that the common notion of the instrumentality in regeneration is inconsistent to the principle of grace.
3rd, the 'word of God' (i.e. the ministry of the gospel) must be rightly understood as the instrument to MAKE MANIFEST the regeneration that has taken place by God's free and sovereign and immediate activity.
I thought that is plain and simple. Take off your COLORED glasses, and read what is there! And please don't pick and choose. Let Gill speak for himself.
In any case, read the whole paragraph for yourself!
"Fourthly, The instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be "born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logoV is used in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers; "though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon 1:10) yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use any in the new creation: wherefore this is rather to be understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and the drawing it forth into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word, by which it appears that a man is born again; so the three thousand first converts, and the jailor, were first regenerated, or had the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and encouraged by the ministry of the apostles to repent and believe in Christ: whereby it became manifest that they were born again. Though after all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": (Gal. 3:2), that is, by the preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."
You will not find anything to support gospel regeneration!
Sing F Lau
What are Hardshell beliefs?
