A picture of outer space by HubbleOctober 13 at 8:10am
"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." Ecclesiastes 3:14
This is a wonderful passage with some most important lessons for us on the nature of salvation by God's free grace, and its distinction from the salvation that that is conditioned upon the obedience of God's children, that they must work out for themselves with fear and trembling. Here's how.
'Whatsoever God doeth...
1. 'It shall be forever' - this is most certainly true of the eternal redemption He purposed for all His elect, and whom Christ accomplished for the same, and whom the Holy Spirit applies to each individual elect personally at God's own appointed and approved time, WITHOUT any human or gospel means.
The salvation which is of the Lord, i.e. of the Lord's doing by His own free and sovereign grace, it shall be forever.
The physical creation shall not be forever. It shall be done away with in due time! But the new creation in the Lord Jesus Christ, THAT shall be forever.
Patron
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Eaton
Amen and Amen to all that has been written.
Sing F Lau
'Whatsoever God doeth...
2. 'Nothing can be put to it' - this is most certainly true of the eternal redemption He purposed for all His elect, and whom Christ accomplished for the same, and whom the Holy Spirit applies to each individual elect personally at God's own appointed and approved time, WITHOUT any human or gospel means. Nothing can be added to it! NOTHING!
Isn't this a glorious declaration for it completely exclude man from having any part whatsoever in his eternal salvation by God's free grace.
O shameless usurpers who think otherwise who teach that man must do something to supplement or complement what God has done to save His people! Hear ye the declaration of God, "whatsoever God doeth, nothing can be put to it!"
That salvation is complete and perfect - in its accomplishment AS WELL AS its application to each elect of God. It is not deficient in anyway, or incomplete in any sense whatsoever such that man can assist to make it complete and effective!
When that salvation is applied to an elect, he is perfectly fitted for ETERNAL glory, not lacking or deficient in any way whatsoever. NOTHING further is needed for his eternal glory.
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Whatsoever God does, nothing can be added to it! In God's work of purposing, accomplishing and application of the eternal salvation for His elect, nothing can, or needed, be added between His doing of predestination, effectual calling, justification, and glorification.
Misguided but sincere preachers insist adding not only their own work of preaching the gospel but also the believing act of their deceived hearers to complement and supplement the doings of God to make God's work of saving His elect EFFECTUAL!
Of course a whole lot more is needed to, and can be done by God's children for their own well-being as God's children in this present life. They are commanded and held responsible to work out THEIR OWN salvation. But that is distinctly different from the eternal salvation purposed, accomplished, and applied by God's free grace for His elect.
Too many students of God's word cannot distinguish the two.
Paul dis say of some, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Sing F Lau
Solomon said, "I KNOW that...
How many preachers today KNOW the truth that Solomon knew long ago... that God in His work of saving His people with ETERNAL redemption through Jesus Christ, He does not need man to add anything to His work?
Why do they arrogantly insist that their preaching and the believing responses of the hearers are needed to make God's work of eternal redemption effectual?
God says 'nothing can be put to it (whatsoever God does, and eternal redemption is most certain what God did and applies, and which is forever), but many preachers insist man's activities must be add to it.
Let God be true but every man a liar.
Sing F Lau
'Whatsoever God doeth...
3. 'Nor any thing taken from it' - thank God the Lord of heaven declared the complete certainty and safety of His work of eternal redemption for His people. None has any power to take anything away from; none can do... anything to deprive His elect from possessing that redemption in Christ Jesus...
NOT even the when there is no preacher to preach the gospel... not even the most damnable heresies Satan can spread through ignorant and deceived preachers.
Have you forgotten:
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
The task of the preachers is to inform God's children - those elect whom God himself has bestowed eternal salvation - the good news of what God has done to save them. They are no less saved eternally EVEN IF THEY know nothing about their salvation through the gospel ministry.
Some sincere but misguided preachers will shout, "hyper... then there is no need for the preaching of the gospel."
I say, yes, that is true, as far the eternal salvation of God's elect are concerned, the gospel ministry plays no role in the eternal salvation of God's children. By God's direct work of effectual calling each individual elect, He has made them perfectly fitted for eternal glory. The gospel is the good news of what God HAS DONE to save His elect!
If you don't understand this, it is because you still cannot distinguish the eternal salvation which is accomplished and applied by God's free grace alone... and the temporal salvation which is delegated to the gospel ministry and the obedient responses of God's children to it.
Ward
Sing, do you have any example of any person being born again apart from hearing the gospel?
The scripture seems to suggest that God is in control of both the end as well as the means for all the things He has purposed.Your posting on this subject seems to suggest that you believe that you are part of the work that God has preordained from eternity past.or you must conclude that you by posting are in effect adding to His work.
The eternal redemption that was purchased by Jesus Christ not only includes our regeneration, but also our sanctification,and our glorification.according to Romans 8:28-32.
What you are accusing us of doing arrogantly are you not doing the same here by posting scripture and expounding on it giving witness to the redemption that is understood through the gospel alone. Have you considered the possibility that those of us engaged in the propagation of the gospel are simply and humbly serving Christ from a pure heart of gratitude? That some of us recognize that God not only ordained us for eternal salvation but also for temporal service in the ministry of preaching the Gospel,or teaching Gods people?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Do you believe the apostle paul made this statement arrogantly as it seems to suggest that God uses both the Gospel, and the gospel preacher to accomplish His own eternal purposes.
I have never met any christian who was regenerated without hearing the gospel prior to their conversion, and I dont think you can make any scriptural argument to support regeneration apart from preaching
Sing F Lau
Lindsey @ "Sing, do you have any example of any person being born again apart from hearing the gospel?
Thank you very much for asking questions. Good start! Many others just rant and foam and pontificate! I hope you are sound enough to ask precise question. So, if you would repeat your question, I may begin responding to your question!
You know there is great gulf between regeneration and conversion, don't you?
Lindsey, do you have any example of any person being conceived with the help of a midwife? i ask this to provoke thinking? I hope you get the point.
Sing F Lau
Lindsey@ "I have never met any christian who was regenerated with out hearing the gospel prior to their conversion,and I don't think you can make any scriptural argument to support regeneration apart from preaching"
=======
Please tell me if I understand you correctly, please indicate.
You believe that the gospel preaching is the necessary instrument for the Spirit of God to regenerate an elect. You believe that an elect who is dead in sin needs to hear the gospel in order to be regenerated by the Spirit.
I know of very many who were regenerated LONG before they ever heard the gospel and were converted and became believers in Jesus Christ. Do you want to know some of their names.
Sing F Lau
Lindsey@ "the scripture seems to suggest that God is in control of both the end as well as the means for all the things He has purposed. Your posting on this subject seems to suggest that you believe that you are part of the work that God h...as preordained from eternity past.or you must conclude that you by posting are in effect adding to His work."
========
You very likely DO NOT yet understand what I have stated. Others will understand it crystal clear.
The eternal redemption of the elect is WITHOUT means whatsoever. God purposed it, Christ accomplished it, the Spirit applied it - all these FREELY by God's grace. Once eternal redemption is applied, it is assured and certain of consummation WITHOUT anything needed.
Yes, God did ordain means. But the means has nothing to do with the eternal salvation of God's elect. Means are ordained for the temporal well-being/salvation of those ALREADY perfectly fitted for eternal glory. Means does not contribute anything to the eternal salvation of God's elect.
Do you now understand what I have stated?
One must understand first before he can disagree intelligently.
Sing F Lau
Lindsey@the eternal redemption that was purchased by Jesus Christ not only includes our regeneration ,but also our sanctification, and our glorification.according to Romans 8:28-32."
============
All I need to say, read and study that text again, and refrain from ADDING to God's holy Scriptures. I'm off for our mid-week bible study.
Ward
To answer your question: You believe that the gospel preaching is the necessary instrument for the Spirit of God to regenerate an elect.
You believe that an elect who is dead in sin needs to hear the gospel in order to be regenerated by the Spirit.
Yes is my answer, and I refer you to Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And all of Romans 10 as well
"I know of very many who were regenerated LONG before they ever heard the gospel and were converted and became believers in Jesus Christ. Do you want to know some of their names ?"
No I asked for an example from scripture, do you have any evidence of anyone being regenerate apart form hearing the word of God?
Sing, there is NO - NO - NO difference between regeneration, new birth, conversion. New heart, new creation, all refer to an ontological change from sin to righteousness in the nature of the person. There is no great gulf between these terms scripturally speaking.
"Do you have any example of any person being conceived with the help of a midwife? i ask this to provoke thinking? I hope you get the point."
This comment belies your faulty assumption that the herald of the gospel is some how involved in the authorship of the message preached. Nothing could be further from mine and the biblical understanding of what occurs as the Gospel is preached. There is a great gulf between the message and the messenger to use your terminology's.
sing@"Yes, God did ordain means. But the means has nothing to do with the eternal salvation of God's elect. Means are ordained for the temporal well-being/salvation of those ALREADY perfectly fitted for eternal glory. Means does not contribute anything to the eternal salvation of God's elect."
This statement seems to suggest that the means that God ordains is only for temporal well being and it does not carry any eternal consequences with it. This view would seem to be antithetical to the great commission as stated in the Gospels.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
You seem to believe that my understanding of Romans 8 is some how lacking or that you may know more than i do about it. when i quoted it as support of my post was it in error? If so please explain.
I think you have the burden of proof to demonstrate through the scriptures how a person can be born again separate from the word of god being proclaimed to Him.
Patron
The big problem is when somebody ask a question but refuses to give up their ideas of the possible answers. Why ask a teacher if already before they give you an answer you shout your ears off!! and have another question ready to spit out without studying the answer given already by the teacher!!..... pure act of disrespect . shame on you
Patron
Another big problem today on Christians is that they can't understand election and salvation in the old testament either... they can't see God saving free grace in OT saints and Israel... same errors to understand free grace, election on NT...
God try to helps us understand this issue through Paul on Romans 9 among other Holy writings.
God knows we are hard on getting understanding
Sing F Lau
Lindsey, I think you and I are on very different page and it would be time consuming for me to show your the truth.
In any case, you are free to demonstrate the errors of my way. You are free to disagree, but point out the error and show the truth.
In any case, I will entertain one of your question:
You said, "no I asked for an example from scripture, do you have any evidence of anyone being regenerate apart form hearing the word of God?"
I suggest you read the account of Cornelius BEFORE he was CONVERTED by the gospel preaching of Apostle Peter.
Now of course you may insist that Cornelius was still dead in his trespasses and sins UNTIL he heard the gospel from Peter. Does what you read of Cornelius match your notion?
Next, the Ethiopia eunuch... he traveled on his 'rolls royce' all the way to Jerusalem to worship God. You may insist that he was ALSO still dead in trespasses and sins until Philip preached Jesus to him!
You heard of those devout God-fearing Jews from all nations under heaven who trudged hundreds to thousands of miles to Jerusalem to worship God??? Read Acts 2:5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." You may insist that they TOO were all dead in trespasses and sins UNTIL they hear the gospel message from Peter on the day of Pentecost.
These were ALREADY born-again PRIOR to the gospel being preached to them. You may disagree, then show us that there were still dead in their trespasses and sins. That would be easy enough for you.
Lindsey, if you are really interested to learn, visit my blog... all your questions are already dealt with many times over there.
Ward
Sing, I will look at your blog, and see how you answer the questions. I do believe people were born again in the old testament times how ever this was not done apart from the heralding of the gospel. While God was the original preacher gen 3:15... the message of the gospel has been preached and expounded upon as the Holy Spirit revealed more of the details concerning redemption. so we are on completely different pages as I believe Romans 10 is an essential element to the propagation of saving grace, and that hyper Calvinism to be an error both in hermeneutics, and judgment.
Thomas
Lindsey, might I ask you as a Brother in Christ to consider the revealed Biblical case regarding elect infants?
I find the following prophecy in Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 33:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
I find that Matthew by Divine Inspiration declares that the infants that Herod did slay were the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy.
Matthew 2:16 ¶ Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, 18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
These slain infant's bodies never left the borders of Israel. However, if one understands that the "land of the enemy" is the grave, it is understood how at the end of time "they shall come again from the land of the enemy". As their spirits would (at the death of their bodies) have returned to the Lord in eternal heaven to await the resurrection, then when their spirits and bodies are reunited on the last day and the Lord carries them with Him to heaven, they "shall come again to their own border" returning in glorified bodies like unto that of the Lord Jesus to the place where their spirits had awaited the resurrection day.
I am aware that a great many folks say that Scripture has "nothing to say about infants". I am aware that it is common to say that such things should be considered as belonging to the "secret will" of God. Nevertheless, I will continue to have something to say about infants, for there are wonderful words of hope and comfort to share from God's word with those that grieve and mourn over the death of their children. I will continue to have things to say about elect infants for these things are revealed, and they are for us and for our children, and it is certain that there can be nothing in the secret will of God that is in opposition to what He has seen fit to reveal for He is not the author of confusion nor can the singleness of His mind be turned.
Those who wish to incorporate the human preached gospel as an instrumental part of eternal salvation insist that the human preached gospel will reach all of the elect and that they will all positively respond to it. Such persons certainly do not want to consider elect infants that die in infancy who could not possibly understand or respond to the external gospel call. To admit that there are such destroys their notion of making the labors of men part of eternal salvation. Scripture only supports one way of eternal salvation and the fulfilled prophecy above surely demonstrates that one way.
These slain children did not live to understandingly hear or respond to a gospel sermon, but they nonetheless will return to their Heavenly Border based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ Alone. So also will all other elect persons be eternally saved by this one way alone. They are eternally saved by free and sovereign grace alone without the necessity of any human means, works, or implementations.
Thanking you in advance for taking the time to consider these things, I remain,
Yours by Free Grace Alone,
Thomas
Patron
Have to add that learning from Sing doesn't slow down in me the eagerness of sharing the gospel of Christ to random or specific people, It has being beneficial since this biblical teaching is giving me a enormous freedom and a guiltless approach.
Before I meet Sing and his interpretation on regeneration and the specific God-given power of the gospel, I was under what the evangelicals , deformed and neo-calvinist used to convinced me that is almost in me 100% the salvation of souls as I share the gospel... oh man ! what a burden they dump on us... now I'm free and relying 100% on God as I go and share the Gospel
Ward
Mark i am glad you brought that subject up I think that it is the only true argument for sings position that makes any sense scripturally. The only problem that I have with it is that Matthew does not quote it as far as Jeremiah does, and the... fact that the children of Rachael are or were at the time born under the covenant sign of circumcision.
I for one don't really feel comfortable in talking about things that the bible is not totally clear on.
I am reminded of Davids son of the illegitimate union who died, as well as job's children the scripture seems to indicate clearly that they will be united in the resurrection and spend eternity together. I do not know how this carries over into the new covenant.
Besides that none of that is a very strong enough case scriptural to counter the plain meaning of Romans 10, and the great commission statement of marks gospel. those scriptures seem to presuppose that the preaching of the gospel is the means that God uses to make the calling effectual.you might also consider: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
as evidence that salvation is a trinitarian effort
Sing F Lau
I asked: do you have any example of any person being conceived with the help of a midwife? I ask this to provoke thinking? I hope you get the point.
Lindsey reply: this comment belies your faulty assumption that the herald of the gospel is some how involved in the authorship of the message preached.nothing could be further from mine and the biblical understanding of what occurs as the Gospel is preached.there is a great gulf between the message and the messenger to use your terminology's
==========
No sir, you miss the whole point:
A midwife is someone to help to deliver life ALREADY existing. She does not assist in any way to bring about that life.
But you insist that a preacher plays an indispensable role in the regeneration of a man dead in trespasses and sins. Get the point?
Sing F Lau
Lindsey, I wonder where you learn your interpretation from.
You have not rightly divide the word of truth. You are addicted to sound-byte, with not much SENSE!
Take 1Pet 1:23-5
... 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1. Birth or begetting always requires a PERSON, a life giving PERSON as the active agent. A thing cannot begets in the sense of bringing about a new life.
2. The Scriptures attribute the new birth to all the three Persons of the God-head.
- To God the Father: "John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even tothem that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
- To God the Son: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
- To God the Spirit: John 1: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3. In many places in the Scriptures, the second PERSON of the Godhead is often designated as the word of God.
- John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
- Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [ability to hear coming by the life-giving power of Jesus Christ].
- Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do. [It is beyond any shadow of doubt that in this passage the Word of God refers to a PERSON... Look at the personal pronouns that follow in verse 13.]
- 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. [compare this with John 1:2 'All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
- Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
It is obvious that the Word of God found in 1Pet 1:23 refers to a PERSON, and not the written word or the preached word of God. Because in the whole of the Scriptures begetting is never attributed to a thing, e.g. the preached word, or the written Scriptures.
Look at the passage carefully now:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
The "word of God" under consideration is said to be incorruptible, which lives and abides forever. It is living and abiding forever. Please note also the subjects being compared. The comparison is between personal beings, between persons: all flesh and men on the one hand, and the person known as "the word of God."
Please note verse 25: three separate entities are spoken of: "the word", "the gospel" and the "preaching."
The gospel is about the person designated as the "word of God" - the preaching of the gospel is about a PERSON, who is the "word of God" made flesh. " John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
In addition, the Scriptures itself testifies that the written Scriptures has been corrupted by many.
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. The incorruptible word of God must refer to the second Person of the Trinity - he is pure and impeccable, incorruptible.
The written and preached word of God is the means appointed by God for the conversion of His children that were born or begotten directly and immediately by the Triune God.
SENSE... SENSE... SENSE... not just SOUND-BYTE!
Go and find a good teacher... and be a good student and learn...
Sing F Lau
And you interpretation of Rom 10 passage is very bad too. Read the passage again, and give it one more try! Get the sense please, don't be addict to just SOUND!
Ward
no sing you are wrong and muddle headed. you think i will not catch your equivocation in your metaphor about the mid wife at first you said conception that is a non sequitur, but my argument is based on the scripture principle that the word of God is present during the new birth conception every bit as much as the Father and Spirit. It is you who have a faulty understanding of both the Word of God the Spirit of God and the Father all working together, and their choice of the preaching of the Gospel to convert the lost and harden the reprobate.
Sorry I did not read your 2nd post. looks like you do have a good understanding of the trinity and the parts each play in the redemption of sinners.
Sing, I think you should learn from me. You have nothing to add to me as you still drew a distinction between conversion, and regeneration. you seem to think that election is the same thing as being born again. That is not what is taught in scripture. even the elect start out dead in their sins. we all start from the same adamic lump of clay. If you need more teaching on this you might learn of the apostle paul in Romans 9. you might try reading some spurgeon he dealt with hyper calvinism in his day as well.
Sing, I know that the preaching of the word of God is preaching the incarnate Christ. You are the muddle headed one here
Patron
KINDNESS BRETHREN PLEASE !
muddle head poem:
OH! WHAT A MUDDLEHEAD WAS HE,
THE MAN I MET IN KENTUCKY.
HE WORE HIS SOCKS ON HIS NOSE,
...AND HIS TIE ON HIS TOES.
PROUD OF HAVING FIFITY PENCE,
HE WENT TO THE MARKET TO BUY A FENCE.
OH! WHAT A MUDDLEHEAD WAS HE,
THE MAN I MET IN KENTUCKY.
THE NEXT DAY I SAW HIM IN A REASTAURANT,
TRYING TO FLAUNT, HE ORDERED,
A CUP OF BREAD,
AND A SLICE OF TEA.
OH! WHAT A MUDDLHEAD WAS HE,
THE MAN I MET IN KENTUCKY.
THE NEXT DAY I SAW HIM AT THE STATION,
AND THIS IS SOMETHING I REALLY HAVE TO MENTION,
LOOKING AT THE BROWN TRAIN HE SAID,
“OH MY GOD THIS IS FILLED WITH GRAIN! ”
AND LOOKING AT THE BLUE SEATS HE SAID’
“OH MY GOD THIS IS PAINTED USING GRAIN! ”
OH! WHAT A MUDDLEHEAD WAS HE,
THE MAN I MET IN KENTUCKY..! !
Sing F Lau
Lindsey@ "sing I think you should learn from me you have nothing to add to me as you still drew a distinction between conversion, and regeneration. "
I honestly don't think I want to learn anything from a man who cannot EVEN distinguish regeneration by God from gospel conversion through the preacher!
If a man cannot even distinguish his act of fathering a child in his wife from the act of the midwife in delivering that child he has fathered, how would I dare to learn anything from him???????????????????????????????????????????
Patron
I just found this I'm not in agreement yet. Just found it
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
Ward
I hesitated to use the term hyper because the non Calvinistic christian tends to think of supralapsarianism as hyper calvinism. yoel I see we share a common library to some extent .I like a.w. pink,as well as sproul, luther, edwards calvin, and i have a friend who is diligently working on the translation of some of beza's work.
Ward
Yes there is an antinomian aspect to the hyper's theology, I don't know Sing well enough to suggest that he has gone this far. so I might be apologizing to him as I was rather harsh on Him ,and it all might be because he probably is not familiar with American English.some times I find it dificult to understand Lewis,or n.t. wright because of the language barrier,and we both speak English
Patron
And I feel so trap. All these "teachers" are so clever and know their Camp verses so well and seem so sincere. I'm afraid I'm gonna end up in a non-doctrinal just topical teaching church for the sake of peace of mind. I wish the Lord will come soon and straight up His Church!...
My hope is to be accepted like the thief on the cross next to the Lord... since one camp will show me verses that if I'm truly saved my walk will look like these and bring 1 2 and 3 John.... the other camp says no matter what even if you walk like the devil and no signs of sanctification... PLOP! I need some wine to relax..
So much debatable doctrine . All I want is to Love God with all my heart soul and mind and my neighbor as myself in other words to be more like Jesus ... and tell everybody I meet the Apostolic Gospel of Christ ....
Ward
Then remember the most important thing. God does things to glorify Himself. He has chosen the story of redemption to do just that. Worship is what we are made for.
[Make sure you worship Him in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.]
Sing F Lau
Yoel, let me just direct you to an article that responded to the article by Phil Johnson. Go here:
http://evangelica.de/articles/doctrine/the-gospel-of-deceit/
There are lots of other VERY GOOD articles there!
http://evangelica.de/articles/bi...ographies/john-gill-and-the-charge-of-hyper-calvinism/
Pr 18:17 He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.
Phil Johnson is a bagful of lies and confusion! I will comment on Johnson's 3 points above later.
Sing F Lau
Yoel, let me say one thing first before talking up the three points mentioned by Phil Johnson: Pr 18:17 "He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him." In debate, what often happened is this: it... is very easy to misrepresent our opponent, and them dismiss the issue.
It is one thing to hear Johnson running down those he slanders as hyper, but it is another to hear from the people don't are NOT hyper BUT disagree with him. To Johnson, any who disagree with him will be slandered as hyper. The Calvinists like Johnson don't seem to see the whole hosts of contradictions there are in their system of belief!
The new school calvinists don't realize that they have departed from the 'calvinism' that was uniform among the old school baptists!
Like I have said, John Gill's teaching was universally regarded by Calvinists of his time as the epitome of 'calvinism' but new school baptists like Johnson slanders him as hyper!
Pygmies and midgets calling well formed men names - how disgusting and revolting!
Sing F Lau
Let me dispose off the Johnson's junks.
"First, it correctly points out that hyper-Calvinists tend to stress the secret ...(or decretive) will of God over His revealed (or preceptive) will. Indeed, in all their discussion of "the will of Go...d," hyper-Calvinists routinely obscure any distinction between God's will as reflected in His commands and His will as reflected in his eternal decrees."
I am an old school baptist like John Gill and his contemporary baptists. I am no hyper... I don't fit Johnson's caricature. This said, let me comment of johnson's junks.
1. There is big confusion here, the new school calvinists equate the decretive will of God as the secret will of God. The secret will of God is just that, SECRET, and NO ONE CAN KNOW that secret will. If it can be known that it is a secret will, then it is no longer secret! The decretive will of God is NO SECRET will at all. Any man who thinks God's decretive will is still secret is deluded! What is decreed is revealed to his people, otherwise His people won't know there is that decretive will!
2. Those he slanders as hyper DO NOT tend to stress the secret (or decretive) will of God over His revealed (or preceptive) will. That's a lie, and a misrepresentation. The old school baptists DON'T even believe there is such a thing as secret will of God!
- What they do always INSIST is to DISTINGUISH the DISTINCTION between God's decretive will and God's preceptive will. And they hold them both in balance and harmony, since both are God's will. They don't pit ne against the other.
- However, it is the new school calvinists who stress the preceptive will of God and IGNORE that decretive will of God altogether, pretending that the decretive will of God is secret and cannot be known, and thus giving themselves license to believe and act contrary to the decretive will of God. What shameless self-deceived folks!
If you don't understand what I have just said, just admit it, and I will explain!
3. What the new school calvinists are ignorant of and OBTUSE is this: the old school baptists hold that the decretive will of God and the preceptive will of God - though distinct, are perfectly harmonious and consistent, and are NEVER contradictory at all.
- New school calvinists (baptists and sprinklers alike) are deceived that God's decretive will is secret, and therefore ignore that decretive will and its plain implications in their beliefs and actions, and believe and act contrary to the decretive will of God. How? you ask!
- God decreed that He elected a particular people to eternal glory through the redemption of His Son Jesus Christ, and which is to be applied to each one of His elect by His Spirit. That decretive will is an WIDE OPEN SECRET! decreed and revealed in His Scriptures.
4. The eternal redemption purposed by God, purchased by Christ, and applied personally to each elect is SPECIFICALLY INTENDED for the elect only - that is the decretive will of God... that is no secret will at all.
- The good news of this finished work of God is to be brought to such people found among men every where in the world.
- Therefore the good news of eternal redemption is intended for such people alone... and no one else.
- The new school calvinists ignore that decretive will, and happily go about SINCERELY offering this eternal redemption to every one indiscriminately! What presumptuous lairs! They are acting as fools, i.e. as though God has no spoken, and as though God's preceptive will is contrary to His decretive will.
5. The new school calvinists, disregarding and ignoring the decretive will of God, believe the BIG LIES that it is God's preceptive will to require all men, including even those who are NOT His children (elect whom the Triune God has effctually called to eternal salvation) to believe Jesus as their Saviour... even though they must militate against the decretive known will of God. They believe in a God who requires a man to believe LIES! Let God be true, but these new school calvinists LIARS!
- The old school baptists firmly hold that the decretive will and the preceptive will of God are consistent and harmonious and unified. He purposed eternal redemption for a specific people, Christ accomplished it for the same people, and the Holy Spirit applied it to individuals of the same.... God sends His preachers to call ONLY such to believe the truth of their salvation.
Let the reader judge for himself... who are LIARS!
Sing F Lau
Let me dispose off the Johnson's junks.
"First... hyper-Calvinists routinely obscure any distinction between God's will as reflected in His commands and His will as reflected in his eternal decrees."
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This accusation is hardly true at ...all.
The problem is NOT that the old school baptists OBSCURE the distinction God's preceptive will as reflected in His commands and His will as reflected in His eternal decrees.
As stated before, the problem lies with the new school baptists' ignorance and rejection of the fundamental truth that the decretive will of God and the preceptive will of the SAME God cannot be contradictory, but wholly and completely harmonious.
The old school baptists DO NOT obscure the distinction. In fact, the opposite is the truth! This shows the true blindness and obtuseness of the slanderers! The blind accuses others as not making the distinction.
They tenaciously hold to the great fact that the eternal decrees of God are immutable, and absolutely certain of accomplishment, ALL by His own sovereign and gracious acts, and apart and independent from any human will or effort. The eternal redemption God decreed for His elect is absolutely certain of its accomplishment for all the elect, and all solely and completely by God's own free and sovereign grace.
They ALSO tenaciously hold to the equally great truth that God's preceptive will for His people are conditional in nature, i.e. their accomplishment is dependent upon the obedient responses of His children. His preceptive will for His children (those whom God HAS ALREADY bestowed eternal redemption) are for the well-being of His children here on earth. The accomplishment of His preceptive will is synergistic, conditioned upon the obedient responses of His children.
The old school baptists have always said, "Distinction is the essence of sound theology." But blind Johnson, who can't differentiate light from darkness, has the cheek to accuse the old school baptists of obscuring the distinction between God's will as reflected in His commands and His will as reflected in his eternal decrees! Old school baptist make crystal distinction between the two.
What a scandal!
Sing F Lau
Let me dispose off the Johnson's junks.
"Second, take note of the stress the above definition places on hyper-Calvinists' "denial of the use of the word 'offer' in relation to the preaching of the gospel." This is virtually the epitome of the hyper-Calvinist spirit: it is a denial that the gospel message includes any sincere proposal of divine mercy to sinners in general."
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The decretive/revealed will of God inform His people that God purposed eternal redemption for His elect, and Christ accomplished that eternal redemption for them, and the Holy Spirit apply that same eternal redemption to each elect personally when they were still in their native state of sin and death. All these are by the free and sovereign will of God - without any assistance or cooperation of man. And the same free and sovereign grace guarantee the eternal glorification of all the same elect.
Did any man help or assist God in effectually calling an elect out of his native state of sin and death into that of grace and eternal life? If there is, please state his name!
And when God has effectually called a man, is he not perfectly fitted for eternal glory? What else is lacking that man can contribute and make up that the eternal glory is made certain? If you know of anything, name it please!
If God Himself has freely and sovereignly applied that eternal redemption to an elect while he was still dead in trespasses and sins, with the result that the elect ALREADY possesses that eternal redemption, then what is there left for the preacher to offer to him?
Well, at best the offer comes TOOOOOOOOO LATE, and is redundant. A preacher may go around offering a thousand and one things, but he surely cannot offer eternal salvation to anyone! God BESTOWS it Himself, without man's help! God applies that eternal redemption to an elect ALL by Himself, freely and sovereignly, without any means.
He cannot offer eternal salvation to the elect... for God did not call him to offer that eternal salvation in the first place. God most certainly send out men to preach the good news of what He has done for His people, and to CONVERT them to the truth. ONLY God's children can be converted to the truth because the truth of eternal salvation is ALREADY true of them - God Himself has applied that salvation to them personally.
And to offer eternal salvation to those whom God did not elect, and for whom Christ did not die, is not only deceitful and wicked, it also portrays God as a liar and a hypocrite - offering eternal redemption to those He HAS DECREED to bypass!
Of course, free offer is completely consistent with universal redemption - redemption made possible for every one without distinction, and thus must be offered to every one, and it is up the hearers to choose whether to accept that salvation of not.
New school calvinists are as ARMINIAN as ever!
Worse still, these preachers claim that eternal redemption is pedaled and hawked by them! How different are they from RC PRIESTCRAFT!
Sing F Lau
Let me dispose off the Johnson's junks.
"Third, mark the fact that hyper-Calvinism "encourages introspection in the search to know whether or not one is elect." Assurance tends to be elusive for people under the influence of hyper-Calvinist ...teaching. Therefore, hyper-Calvinism soon degenerates into a cold, lifeless dogma. Hyper-Calvinist churches and denominations tend to become either barren and inert, or militant and elitist (or all of the above)."
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John Gill is slandered left and right, front and back, as the epitome of hyper-calvinism.
Let the accusers and slanderers study his life and ministry, and the church he ministered, and see whether they come near to anything said above! Quite the opposite.
Dr George Ella, a historian and theologian, has written a substantial biography on John Gill... get a copy and read it... and it will save you from repeating all those lies.
John Gill and the Cause of God and Truth, Go Publications.
All Dr Ella's books are available on the North American Continent courtesy of :
Mr Michael Pickett
Gospel Missions
PO Box 318
Choteau, Montana 59422
USA
tel/fax : 001 406 466 2311 Gospel Mission
email: gospelm@3rivers.net
Patron
Thank you Sing. Phil Johnson and his clan belong to the John MacArthur. Bias debaters for Christ club and every person under their dogma have an arrogant prideful spirit that you can smell then from afar , I was one of them for two years , they make me believe that because I was under their wings I've arrived to the pinnacle of truth and that rubbing elbows with them will make me more godly...also when somebody leaves their church and goes to another one they take it personal and usually slander that brethren as an apostate or in pursuit of sinful pleasures or because he/she wasn't saved at all or because he/she can't handle their holiness sad.
I can't stand and argument when the opponent believes there is no way they need to learn at least a bit.
