Someone posted:
In eternity past, God the Father covenanted with God the Son, Jesus Christ, to glorify Himself by saving a particular, elect people, and those only, from the guilt and defilement of sin, by the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. [Psa 89:19-37; Isa 49:5-6;53:11-12; Luk 22:29; Joh 6:37-40; 10:29; 17:2,9; Gal 3:16-18; 2Ti 1:9]
Sing F Lau
In the eternity past there was no Son of God. There was the Word, John 1:1. The covenant of redemption was made between the three Persons of the Godhead.
The Word agreed to be made flesh, became the Son of God, John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
The Son of God is the DUAL NATURED Person, both wholly divine and human, the eternally divine person who took upon Himself true humanity and became the Son of God.
Chapin
Scripture never speaks of "God the Son." It's the Son of God...
Huston
God does not change. Mal 3:6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed. "
Sing F Lau
The Word, the second Person of the Godhead DID NOT change at all when He took upon Himself true humanity.
Lloyd
So that's why He's the only begotten then because He wasn't the actual son of God until he had been born in the flesh?
Huston
"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonabl...e soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us."
Chalcedonian creed of 451
Huston
@ Alan, "begotten of God before the ages"
Lloyd
You mean creation? Oh so He was always the son of God?
Huston
Yes, before creation, before time He was always the Son of God existing co-eternally with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Lloyd
Good point. Though He existed as the Word and then became flesh. That's pretty clear from the scripture. You can't become something you already are?
Sing F Lau
Theological gymnastic is useful perpetuate heresy!
The term 'son of God' was not even used once in the OT to refer to the Second Person of the Godhead. The term son of God began to be used for the VERY FIRST TIME in the announcement of incarnation...
Lu 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
'SHALL COME UPON THEE... SHALL OVERSHADOW... SHALL BE BORN... SHALL BE CALLED...' read that. This is the very first occasion the term is used!
'Scriptures alone' is just a shibboleth to many.
Ireland
Proverbs 30:3-4 “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely you know!”
Hart
Craig, you too have a modern perversional text.
I used those too, and the light came on when I trashed all my modern translations. I'll leave the site rather than discuss 'apples' and 'oranges' with reformed suppositional fans.
Ireland
Richard, Proverbs 30:3-4 "θεὸς δεδίδαχέν με σοφίαν καὶ γνῶσιν ἁγίων ἔγνωκα
τίς ἀνέβη εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ κατέβη τίς συνήγαγεν ἀνέμους ἐν κόλπῳ τίς συνέστρεψεν ὕδωρ ἐν ἱματίῳ τίς ἐκράτησεν πάντων τῶν ἄκρων τῆς γῆς τί ὄνομα αὐτῷ ἢ τί ὄνομα τοῖς... τέκνοις αὐτοῦ ἵνα γνῷς
How's that bro? Happy now? lol, I'd say that's original enough for ya.
Sainz
Very nice Craig..i would agree with you... that's preaty "original" lol
Ireland
Well I must go out on a limb here and assert [I could be wrong on this] most people I find criticise translations of original texts do so off another's research altogether. Richard may be an exception to this, but I am curious if he has eve...n learned Koine greek? Most DON'T, and yet they have a been in their bonnet about what translation is or isn't valid. Well people here's a word of advice, don't trust ANY translations and make the effort to learn Greek, it'll be a fantastiuc investment for you and you don't need a translator any more. There you go RICHARD, there's the text from the LXX, hope it's original enough for you and I hope you can read it --Mr. 'I don't like modern translations'-- hahahaha.
Lloyd
Ya'll very Christ like I can see but I don't think you know what spirit you are of.
I mean leave the calling down of fire to Elijah. The whole debate poking fun and laughing at others no need for that we can disagree in offensivly don't you think.
Sainz
I think he is referring to craigs "hahaha" comment
Lloyd
Oh no not you craig and the other guy. yep
Huston
@Sing, so you reject the Chalcedonian creed?
Sing F Lau
That Chalcedonian creed of 451 statement is filled with CONTRADICTIONS
1. "one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body..."
- The Son of God is confessed to be 'truly God and truly man.' This is the dual natured Person.
And if any one insists that the dual-natured Person is eternal... he is very confused and ignorant. Incarnation took place in time... the Eternal Word was made flesh in real space time history!
2. " but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation"
- As regard to His divinity, He is ETERNAL. Anything eternal CANNOT be begotten in any sense of the word... no matter what form of theological gymnastic one employs.
- It is 'as regard to his manhood' that he is begotten. And with regard to his manhood, he was begotten in time. It is pure contradiction to say that he was eternally begotten, before the ages! He was begotten in TIME, in the time of Augustus Caesar!
- The term 'Son of God' is a redemptive in context.
Jesus is the Son of the eternal God. He is NOT the eternal Son of God.
Let God be true but every man a LIAR!
Hart
Craig, you're bluffing, likely displaying Majority "Critical" Greek Westcoott & Hort influence from which every modern English text is derived, including NKJV.
Now then, Craig, why would fat richie bother to read anything other than King Ja...mes Translation? If the extraciricular reading hasn't helped you, why recommend it for richie?
Alan, poking fun is sport. Beware of who you hobnob with. Don't take them so seriously.
They're only joking. Reform toxicology is a choice. Some like it. I hate it. I wasted a half century in arminian traditions, and churchy literature.
The Bible is sufficient to enlighten. Substitutes lead to confusion.
A cemetarian is more confused than his constituents.
Alan, I catch up with you in New Zealand, OK?
richie, recovering arminian
Sing F Lau
Craigh@ Pro 30:3-4.
If you imagined that the son of God is spoken of, take a look here to have a better understanding of what is being spoken of... whose son?
"Who, like God, has the wisdom and power to establish all the ends of earth, to lay... the foundation and build upon it? No man! God proved Job's inferior wisdom and power by these very considerations (Job 38:4-7). And Solomon reasoned about wisdom's great value through God's use of it to create the world and settle the mountains (8:25-26).
Is there any such man? No, not one! Agur pressed further. If there is such a man, what is his son's name? They had to answer in the negative. There is neither man nor son that knows or understands these things! They are too high and wonderful for man (Ps 131:1). "
Full article here:
http://letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/30_04.htm
Craig
Hey Richie, did I display 'Majority "Critical" Greek Westcoott & Hort' hmm, no I didn't. It was an OT text remember, so I had to use the LXX, as I already explained [hint hint, that's the Septuagint].
You speak as though you know me? You suggest what you prejudge to have and to have not done me any good, what insight you have. So my Q still stands, can you read the greek, or are you reliant on translators to give you God's word?
And do yourself a favour and avoid NZ at all costs, it's to be sunk soon because of the smell it has been making us Aussies endure for the last few decades, :) --- yes I'M JOKING, just so ya'll know!!!" hahahaha
Hart
Craig, you one sharp cookie! I like your sense of humor!
Alan is coming around. I trust that he will know where you coming from with the faith-based bibles.
What to believe? How much of it? etc. lots of moving targets in the world of denominational religion. I did that myself.
Later burned my literature (art of written works) and went back to Bible study. THanks for lively chat! Blessings!
Ireland
God Bless friend, have a great day in sunny [insert here where you are from].
Soli Deo Gloria!
Ireland
Thanks Sing, I'll investigate this further at a later date.
Many Blessings
