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| Wifey, a sweet little girl - 'Kuee Ing' aka. Queen. |
November 21 at 8:46pm
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Last Friday I heard John MacArthur say on radio that possibly Jarius' daughter would be in heaven. I believe emphatically she will be in heaven but then MacAthur is a moderate Calvinist! I hold to Calvinist views! Can anyone explain why she possibly would not be in heaven?
Sing F Lau
"How will she ever get into heaven... no record of her hearing and believing the gospel!"
[You know I speak as a fooooool, don't you'.]
Keesee
Possibly, yes... provided she heard the gospel in some extra-Biblical context. Unless I have missed something, Scripture is silent regarding her spiritual condition.
Speculation is always uncertain too.
Jesus Himself said that a person who is not elect would not believe even if a person were raised from the dead.
The point of the healing ministry of Christ was twofold as I understand it: to glorify God and to validate Him as Messiah.
I can't think of a Scripture that would allow for us to say for certain whether or not Jesus did or must have only healed saved persons.
What was Dr. MacArthur's reasoning?
Sing F Lau
"Possibly yes" - that cautious, reluctant and grudging 'yes'... is further conditioned upon 'provided she heard the gospel.
If speculation is always uncertain... conditioning eternal salvation upon some acts of men is most certainly HERETICAL..., a repudiation of salvation by free grace!
Sing F Lau
Keesee @"Jesus Himself said that a person who is not elect would not believe even if a person were raised from the dead. "
Please tell us where or when did Jesus say that?
Keesee
Sing... Those who are elect believe.
"If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." - Luke 16:30 Jesus, giving the parable of Lazarus...
Take care,
Ward
Luke 16 but you have Abraham speaking as it were the place of God so in a technical sense Jesus never said that,but in a way it was prophetic as between the resurrection and the ascension all of the disciples worshiped him but not all believed fully Matt 28 17 i think might be 16
Sing F Lau
Dennis, you said this, ""Jesus Himself said that a person who is not elect would not believe even if a person were raised from the dead. "
Jesus said this: ""If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."
In my understanding, you said something VERY DIFFERENT from what Christ said!
Your statement, in the context in which it was sad, obviously refers to Jairus daughter... your 'a person' is the one and the same person who related to resurrection and believing spoken of!
Whereas in Christ's statement, such is not the case! The resurrection is related to Lazarus... and the believing is related to the living brothers of the man already in hell!
You see, how a little carelessness, and a little slant, and the Scriptures is HIJACKED!
What is more surprising, you even entertain the possibility of Christ exerting his life giving power on a non-elect!
Sing F Lau
Dennis @"Those who are elect believe."
That is partially true - ONLY partially true.
The elect who are not regenerated will never believe.
Also, not all of God's children will believe: some don't have the opportunity to hear; others don't have the capacity to hear, others don't have the rational faculty to comprehend.
It becomes heretical when it is understood as "ALL those who are elect will hear and believe the gospel."
It gets worse when it is said, "There are NO children of God among all those who have not heard the gospel (having no opportunity to hear), and those who can't hear the gospel (having no inability to hear.)
The heresy of 'gospel regeneration' lurks in every nook and cranny of the calvinistic thinking! It cripples their sound mind!
Lloyd
Hmmn never heard that before. But because they are elect they will still be saved - is that what your saying? But surely those who have opportunity and faculty must be converted to faith?
Sing F Lau
Alan @"hmmn never heard that before but because they are elect they will still be saved is that what your saying?"
Hear this then:
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might... be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
For every one of God's elect, eternal glory is GUARANTEED by God's own free and sovereign activity, without man's help or aid or cooperation in any way. That is what it means eternal salvation by the free grace of God alone.
The gospel ministry is appointed for the temporal salvation of God's children - for their spiritual well-being while here in this present life.
Some of God's children have the opportunity to have the gospel ministry brought to them, others don't. Of those who do hear and believe the gospel, they shall be converted to the truth to VARYING degree. Others are not converted, like God's children among the Jews in Apostle Paul's time. Others who do hear are incapable to believing.
Lloyd
amen,
Page
@ Sing, truth!!!
Page
my thoughts are not deep concerning what MacA said about Jarius' daughter. I just thought that MacA would think that if Christ raised her from the dead that LOGICALLY she was an elect child and would be regenerated and just naturally be in heaven with him.
If MacA has no confidence that she is in heaven then what confidence does he have that he will be in heaven?
Sing F Lau
Between one who has not heard the gospel and one who preaches a false gospel... I am confident of Jairus' daughter is in heaven.
Keesee
Sing... explain this: "Between one who has not heard the gospel and one who preaches a false gospel... I am confident of Jairus' daughter in heaven
Sing F Lau
Dennis, thanks for inquiring.
There are few things said in the statement above:
1. The comparison is between one like Jairus' daughter who has been dealt so graciously by Christ.
- Even IF Jairus' daughter never heard the gospel, I am convinced that she is a child of God.
- Going to heaven DOES NOT depends on hearing and believing the gospel. Going to heaven rest solely upon the divine work of effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
- Hearing and believing EVIDENCE one having been MADE FIT for heaven by God's free grace.
- Not every child of God will hearing the gospel. No hearing, no manifestation of that eternal salvation by God's free grace.
- Of all those who do hear, not every one of them is capable of believing...
2. One who preaches a false gospel shows himself in a dangerous position. My statement express no opinion whether such a man will be in heaven. That's Christ's prerogative. There are many sincere men who preach false gospels - arminians and new school calvinists included.
One who preaches another gospel, i.e. a false, and is no gospel, like gospel regeneration, comes under this category:
Christ said:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Apostle Paul said:
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Greater hope for a little child like Jairus' daughter than for great name preachers like Johnny Mac!
Keesee
Sing, thanks for clarifying.
My main concern was that Scripture speaks multiple times about people experiencing miracles and not believing. I was taking that principle and applying it to Jairus' daughter.
Not to say that she wasn't saved, but rather we aren't told explicitly what her spiritual condition is. It's not that pivotal for me, I don't have any of my cookies in this basket. :)
I do have a more important question for you. In light of what you said how do yo interpret Romans 10:13-15?
You said:
"Going to heaven DOES NOT depends on hearing and believing the gospel. "
Scripture says:
"For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?"
This seems to place the premium on preaching to those who need to hear of Christ -so that- they can believe and be saved. I think you and I agree on the order of salvation... regeneration precedes faith, that is a must for dead men.
Please let me know what your thoughts are.
Page
me too!
Sing F Lau
Dennis, thanks for inquiring. It is an excellent way to learn the Scriptures together.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they to hear without a preacher? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?"
Pray tell,
- who are they who shall call upon the name of the Lord: those already regenerated, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?
- who are they who will believe: those already regenerated, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?...
- who are those who will hear and discern the gospel: those already regenerated, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?
The same Apostle said, " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God."
The preaching of the gospel comes to two categories of people: those that are perishing, and those that ARE SAVED.
The gospel is brought to those that ARE SAVED - saved by God's free and sovereign grace with ETERNAL salvation. Them that ARE SAVED are there first, before the gospel arrive... the gospel comes to them that ARE SAVED. Get the point?
Hearing and believing the gospel ALSO saves - but saves in an ENTIRELY different sense... the gospel saves them that ARE SAVED (by God) from ignorance and error and darkness, and enlightens them and make them wise unto their eternal salvation (already a fact) by God's free and sovereign grace.
The gospel truth instructs them to live godly, soberly and righteously, saving them from the temporal effects of sins in this life. The gospel truth arms and equips THEM THAT ARE SAVED to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
The salvation by God's free and sovereign grace is ETERNAL SALVATION.
The salvation that is conditioned upon the action of God's children (i.e. regenerated elect) is TEMPORAL SALVATION, that which pertains to their spiritual well-being here and now. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing they can do or fail to do concerning their ETERNAL SALVATION.
The gospel ministry is ordained for the WELL-BEING of God's children.
Keesee
Sing, we are elect from eternity past and we experience that Truth in reality at a given time appointed by God, right?
How do you harmonize that with the fact that most Christians reject the Gospel several times before accepting it. They were... still elect right?
Thanks. Also, what are you thoughts on 'are saved' opposed to 'are being saved' in 1 Cor 1:18
Sing F Lau
Dennis @"We are elect from eternity past and we experience that Truth in reality at a given time appointed by God, right?"
We are elected from eternity past unto eternal salvation.
That eternal salvation WAS ACCOMPLISHED in time by the finished work of Jesus Christ. LEGAL justification by the blood of Christ took place - righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to all elect.
That LEGALLY ACCOMPLISHED eternal salvation is APPLIED to each individual elect PERSONALLY at God's appointed and approved time... VITAL justification takes place, i.e. the righteousness of Christ is now IMPARTED/APPLIED to each elect at his effectual call OUT OF the state of sin and death to that STATE of grace and salvation.
This application is WITHOUT means... gospel instrumentality.
Eternal salvation can ONLY be experienced BECAUSE God, by His free and sovereign grace has first applied it to an elect personally, while he was still dead in trespasses and sin.
Romans 8:
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Sing F Lau
Dennis @"How do you harmonize that with the fact that most Christians reject the Gospel several times before accepting it. They were still elect right?"
There are God's elect who are not born yet.
There are God's elect that were conceived but never born...
There are God's elect that have gone to glory.
Of God's elect that are born... ALL are conceived and born in sins, dead in trespasses and sin, in the state of sin and death.
Of God's elect who have been born and still on earth:
At God's appointed and approved time, God effectually call EACH out of their NATIVE state of sin and death, unto eternal salvation... "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
He does ALL THESE all on His own, without man's aid or cooperation. Once effectually called, a man is completely and perfectly fit for eternal glory.
An unregenerated elect WILL MOST CERTAINLY reject the gospel. It will be foolishness to him. Saul (later Paul) rejected the gospel for a long time, while in his regenerated state... when he was filled with the holy zeal OF God to defend the old covenant religion of the theocratic kingdom of Israel.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co 1:18, 2:14
It must be added ALSO, elect that are already regenerated DO REJECT the gospels too. Some are brought to believe the gospel, others are blinded. Still others choose to believe a lie.
Sing F Lau
Dennis @"Also, what are you thoughts on 'are saved' opposed to 'are being saved' in 1 Cor 1:18"
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
...'Are saved' - present passive/middle PARTICIPLE, i.e. the saved ones by God.
The elect are THE SAVED ONES by God:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
All the verbs actions are in the past tense, because they are as good as DONE because of immutability of divine purpose. Divine foreknowledge GUARANTEES eternal glory.
The saved ones by God are BEING SAVED through the gospel ministry.
The former speak of ETERNAL SALVATION.
The latter speaks of temporal salvation which is a life long process.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
