Wild ginger flower!Forget about tulip!
October 31 at 11:41pm
Johnso posted:
Expect great things from God; attempt great things for God.
Blackfo
but of course!!!
Dome
William Carey??
Sing F Lau
Expect only those things that are consistent with His decretive and preceptive will!
Johnso
Sing: I am sure that is what Carey meant, but the above is a lot more pithy than your protracted statement.
Sing F Lau
I am sure Carey knew what he meant, no doubt about it! It is those without Carey's theological mooring, his statement may be taken to mean ridiculous things - things contrary to God's decretive and preceptive will!
I observe that new school... calvinists have drifted very far away from the beliefs of the old school calvinists.
Johnso
The supposed "old school calvinists" were the Anti-Missions folks or Hardshells which emerged about the 1820s or 1830's in response to the modern missions movement and Luther Rice's fund raising efforts...thus, ironically the baptist supporting the 1644 and 1689 Confessions of Faith are called by you and the Primitives as "New School" even though we preceded your departure from these historic doctrines by at least 200 years.
[sing: I have just discovered these words... issued by the so-called Primitive Baptists on mission, and mission board. I find it interesting.
The Black Rock Address brethren wrote:
“We will now call your attention to the subject of Missions. Previous to stating our ob...jections to the mission plans, we will meet some of the false charges brought against us relative to this subject, by a simple and unequivocal declaration, that we do regard as of the first importance the command given of Christ, primarily to His apostles, and through them to his ministers in every age, to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," and do feel an earnest desire to be found acting in obedience thereunto, as the providence of God directs our way, and opens a door of utterance for us.
We also believe it to be the duty of individuals and churches to contribute according to their abilities, for the support, not only of their pastors, but also of those who go preaching the gospel of Christ among the destitute.
But we at the same time contend, that we have no right to depart from the order which the Master himself has seen fit to lay down, relative to the ministration of the word.
We therefore cannot fellowship the plans for spreading the gospel, generally adopted at this day, under the name of Missions; because we consider those plans throughout a subversion of the order marked out in the New Testament.”
Sing F Lau
Just one question to make sure I get you correctly: were those particular baptists who subscribed to the 1689 up to and before the 1820s or 1830s known as 'New School'?
In what sense where they anti-mission? Were they anti church-centred Sp...irit-led evangelism of converted God's children, or were they anti mission-board organized activities to gather souls into heaven? What were they opposed to? I wish to know!
I understand the modern mission group eventually abandoned the 1689 and became thorough fullerite arminians. Then in the 1960s some came to their sense about their historical roots, 'reformed' themselves and call themselves RBs... but they are still afar off from their roots, from which their forefathers had departed.
Better to keep to what is at hand.
Can you indicate what were the great things Carey had in mind in that wonderful statement? May be that would be helpful. What were the great things he expected from God? What were the great things he wanted to attempt for God?
It would be very helpful if you can tell us what Carey meant by those words.
Johnso
In the 1820s and 1830's the original issue was the formation of missions methodology and the existence of mission boards and tract societies and sunday schools and the gathering of funds for missions. Many anti-missions baptists salndered L...uther Rice's motives as he travelled around raising money for Adoniram Judson and the American Board.
Then, it seems the Anti-Missionary groups begin to change doctrine and deny any means... It started with mission boards, then went to the Word of God in Scriptures and then Faith as the appropriating means by which Jesus unites us to Himself. Very soon, many of these Hardshells or Primitive baptists were advocating direct Holy Spirit regeneration whereby folks are regenerated who do not possess faith and without hearing the Word of God.
Carey desired to go to the heathen and preach the Gospel to then, which is the means by which God converts the unsaved.
Setliff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0tAfrPlNq8
"If Calvinism is True, Why Evangelize?"
Edward
Whitefield. Great Reformed Evangelists.
Sing F Lau
I hope you can help me to understand the exact issue involved.
Before the so-called mission and anti-mission controversy, were there any 'mission' work of some sort? I assumed there was.
From what you said above, it seems the issue was not evangelism or mission itself, but 'mission methodology'. So, I assume that the mission methodology is indeed something new to those who held to the 1689 UP TO that point in time.
And the new mission methodology did lead to the DOCTRINAL DOWNGRADE that brought about the new school theology. Old theology was morphed to fit and complement the new methodology.
My interest was piqued mainly from the PLAIN fact that those who CLAIM to hold to the same 1689 BCoF could end up believing DIAMETRICALLY opposed teachings!
Well, I am not really surprised because even the same Holy Scriptures (of the same translation) can be made to read to teach opposite things! There are hard-core Arminians and there are convinced Calvinists among those who use the KJT,
After years of studying the Scriptures and examining the 1689 and dealing with the RBs in Malaysia, I am convinced that the RBs I deal with in Malaysia are REALLY Arminians but love the 'elitist' and 'fashionable' label! I was a RB for 15 years... found too many inconsistencies and contradictions along the way...
I am convinced that the present reformed baptists have departed far away from the old particular baptists.
In any case, let us return to your great quote from Carey.
What did he mean in the context of "Carey desired to go to the heathen and preach the Gospel to then, which is the means by which God converts the unsaved."
Are the "unsaved heathen" in your statement above those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins, or those already regenerated, whom God will convert through your preaching?
Sing F Lau
"If Calvinism is True, Why Evangelize?"
=====
That's a great question!
Tell us the answer - in brief!
I like to see whether the answer is consistent with Scriptures!
Johnso
Sing: I think the Malaysian and SE Asian RBs would seriously disagree with you. More than one even warned me not to engage you at all because you were reported to be a contentious man who had written off the whole RB movement in SE Asia as ..."Arminian."
But I continue to engage you because I see that you are trying to preserve a focus on God's sovereignty in salvation.
Your doctrine seems very close to other Primitive Baptists that I know. I believe the Primitive Baptist err on a number of counts, the main one being "direct Spirit regeneration" without the preaching of the Word of God. God ordinarily uses the preaching of the Word of God in the conversion of souls.
I posted some Bob Ross videos to my profile. I'd love to hear what you think of Bob Ross's critiques of the Hardshell (Anti-missions) baptists.
Page
continue this discussion...
Johnso
Charles, unfortunately I go interior tomorrow and might not have internet accessibility until December 17th (unless I can have a satellite system installed next week..which is the plan).
So, gentlemen's agreement...let's postpone this talk... until I regain net accessibility and then we can fullly engage these topics.
p.s. don't use this as an occasion to fill this thread with 200 replies in the meantime and overwhelm me with sheer volume...
Sing F Lau
When men cannot deal with issues, they just call names.
Who is contentious? Seven churches OFFICIALLY raised seven charges of doctrinal errors against me and my church... and then just muzzled up, until today!
And the 7 charges they raised proved that they are really arminians. None of my seven replies to those seven charges have ever been answered to this day! [Noel Espinosa who answered on their behalf is no more enlightened on the subject of justification as them... complete ignorant of the distinction between forensic justification applied by God's free grace, and justification evidenced and manifested by believing... being ignorant of the distinction, he confused them and fused them, resulting in forensic justification by God through faith!]
Any who want to read those seven charges, and the response to them, while waiting for you to return, can go here:
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/
I will wait for you to return!
Until then, may the Lord bless you richly.
Sing F Lau
And read here on gospel regeneration... to prepare for a useful discussion on gospel regeneration.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-addiction-to-gospel-regeneratiom.html
Johnso
Sing: God bless you and I will see you on December 17th (or sooner if my satellite goes up). Thanks for the discussions.
Page
My personal hero is John Ryland, Sr. and his response to Carey's request. Trevor, what do you think Ryland's view of Spirit regeneration was? did he reflect the old school baptist?
Sing F Lau
That incident has often abused and exaggerated or misunderstood. I am not sure what really transpired. [It has been be twisted by the new school calvinists to slander and caricature those spiritual giants known as the particular baptists of the time.]
Carey's words could have indicated as advocating gospel regeneration, which was an idea so foreign and anathema to the particular baptists... of the time, and Ryland's appropriate response seen in that light.
Carey was ALREADY influenced by Fuller's poisonous ideas. I don't believe that Ryland, like any particular baptists of the day, was against evangelism to convert God's children who are out there in the world.
Go this site, and you will read of many articles on Fuller and Carey and your hero Ryland the history and happening at that time...
http://evangelica.de/
Read this article: http://evangelica.de/articles/doctrine/an-unworthy-gospel-fullerism/
Sing F Lau
I have just discovered these words... issued by the so-called Primitive Baptists on mission. I find it interesting. The Black Rock Address brethren wrote:
“We will now call your attention to the subject of Missions. Previous to stating our objections to the mission plans, we will meet some of the false charges brought against us relative to this subject, by a simple and unequivocal declaration, that we do regard as of the first importance the command given of Christ, primarily to His apostles, and through them to his ministers in every age, to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature," and do feel an earnest desire to be found acting in obedience thereunto, as the providence of God directs our way, and opens a door of utterance for us.
We also believe it to be the duty of individuals and churches to contribute according to their abilities, for the support, not only of their pastors, but also of those who go preaching the gospel of Christ among the destitute.
But we at the same time contend, that we have no right to depart from the order which the Master himself has seen fit to lay down, relative to the ministration of the word.
We therefore cannot fellowship the plans for spreading the gospel, generally adopted at this day, under the name of Missions; because we consider those plans throughout a subversion of the order marked out in the New Testament.”
=========
Trevor, do you think that is a true description of the ISSUE?
