Exchanges between two siblings on the things of the SpiritHere is a short exchange
Dr Marrow
Hi Sing, call me obtuse...call me dense...call me a heretic... but I just do not believe that a person will be finally saved without trusting Christ. Twist me up...ask me about those who have no mind or babies...and all I can tell you is what I believe based on what I understand about the nature of God. I just do not believe God calls men to go to the mission field, get hacked to pieces and burnt alive in order that God's people might be made more comfortable by conversion.
Time is short. Eternity is very long. If you are right missions finally mean little. I respect you and one consequence of our conversation is that you make me want to pray for more light and insight into God's word. If I come to a different understanding you will be one of the first to know. God bless.
Sing F Lau
I would never call a Doctor of Theology anything near that!
By 'finally saved' I assume that you mean enter into eternal glory.
Correct me if I am wrong.
By 'trusting Christ' I assume that you mean having heard the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
May I ask, when it is declared:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"
As any of those acts of God conditioned upon ANY activities of those acted upon - like preachers' preaching and hearers's believing? Please note that the passage speaks, and applies EQUALLY to EVEY SINGLE ELECT. Don't conveniently ignore or wilfully overlook this simple and plain fact.
Is the final glorification of an elect conditioned upon anything he does and what other men, e.g. preachers, do?
I affirm that the temporal salvation, i.e. his spiritual wellbeing here on earth, is conditioned upon the activities of other men and his own, in obedience to the will of God.
So many shout 'eternal salvation by God's free grace' very inconsistently... saying it is by grace alone, yet also at the same time that same salvation (eternal) conditioned upon some acts of men!
Sing F Lau
Dr Marrow, the whole thing about the nature of God with respect to conversion His children, we wrestled with it long ago when we were at the Evangelical forum.
An argument that says, the gospel conversion of every child of God is guaranteed by the very nature of God, is at best a baseless presumption, at worst contrary to biblical fact.
May I ask, how much gospel conversion in His children is guaranteed by the nature of God?
I do know certain things that are absolutely guaranteed by God towards all the elect: justification by free grace, regeneration, adoption, and glorification. In these things - all the elect are EQUALLY acted upon in the same exact manner, and to the same exact degree. All these are necessary for eternal glory.
Gospel conversion? What exactly is guaranteed by God's nature for each elect in gospel conversion?
Please tell us your thoughts.
Marrow
Sing, I find justified children of wrath untenable. I find justified rebels without scriptural evidence. I find justified natural men w/o the holy Spirit unthinkable. I find justified God haters unbiblical. I find justified Christ rejector...s impossible. I am short on time at the moment but I will try to get back to you on some of the things you raise above.
Sing F Lau
Dr Marrow, let me assure you, I don't believe any of the MONSTERS you mention above. Either I am a very poor communicator, or you are very lousy and pathetic in drawing conclusion from what you have read. Yes, such are indeed untenable, without scriptural evidence and unthinkable and unbiblical, and impossible.
None of the above monsters listed by you is the same as those who are ALREADY justified by God's free grace but are not yet brought to faith through the gospel ministry. At least I see a VAST difference between the two. Perhaps you see them as the way you have described!
I was instructed by a old man this basic truth: distinction is the essence of sound theology... rightly dividing the word of truth is the essence of sound theology.
A justified man had the wrath upon his sins removed.
A justified man fears God and works righteousness.
A justified man is indwelt by the Spirit of God.
A justified man is no haters of God.
A justified man is NO haters of Christ if the gospel has not even been brought to him!
Take a look at Cornelius before apostle Peter was sent to him! Behold the Italian centurion and learn some lessons... that justification and regeneration preceded the gospel ministry and conversion.
It is evil and wicked to malign and slander a man as a Christ rejector when he has not even heard of the gospel of Christ! How can you malign a man as Christ hater when he has not even heard of Christ? Whatever has happened common sense and justice!
Marrow
Brother Sing, maybe you think that all the elect are regenerated from the womb...or even at conception...because, if you don't believe that, then you do indeed have men walking around who have been eternally justified but are yet in a state of rebellion and all the other things I said...else they are NOT children of wrath even as others.
Sing F Lau
Dr Marrow, for you to say all the above, I can only conclude you have not UNDERSTOOD what I have been saying all along.
And I think I know where the problem lies. It is your failure or incapability to rightly understand the difference between LEGAL justification at the cross and PERSONAL justification at effectual calling. At effectual calling, what was LEGAL is made PERSONAL and VITAL to each individual elect.
Your failure or incapability or even refusal to rightly understand the difference between the LEGAL and PERSONAL extends ALSO to the LEGAL sonship purchased at the cross and PERSONAL sonship at regeneration.
As in justification, EVEN SO in sonship, there are FIVE DISTINCT phases or aspects.
Take a look at this issue here: http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/dazzling-multi-faceted-jewel_24.html
a. Sons by decree for all elect before time:
Eph 1:4-5 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
b. Sons by legal purchase for all the elect at the cross:
Gal 4:4-5 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”
c. Sons by birth at effectual call:
Each elect is regenerated at God's appointed and accepted time: John 3:3-6 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 1:13 "sons of God... which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 1Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
d. Sons by experience through faith in Christ:
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” Rom 8:13-14 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
e. Sons by the resurrection & glory: Rom 8:23-24 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all the elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time.
NOW I AM MIGHTY GLAD that you raise your objection. You are the first one to raise such objection, evidencing you are indeed thinking and studying. Honored to have a fellow student like you.
Sing F Lau
I wrote to a brother these words:
I let him raise all the OBJECTIONS he could, and truth will answer all his objections nicely.
Then he would be ashamed of himself and conscience condemned should he choose to continue in his confusion and obtuseness.
I always welcome objections to my view... if they are VALID objections, and IF I don't have valid answers to them, I am prepared to KIV that understanding, and abandon it when necessary, i.e. convinced. My basic premise is that God's word in inherently unified and there can no contradiction whatsoever.
Marrow
Sing...you said "God's elect are regenerated at some point in their life, between conception and death. So let it be heard loud and clear - I DO NOT believe that all elect are regenerated from the womb or even at conception.
All the elect are personally and individually children of wrath even as the others UNTIL regenerated at God's appointed and approve time."
If this is what you believe (and I don't doubt you at all when you tell me these things) then my question again is...how can you avoid the problem of an individual being born, living his life UNTIL he is effectually called, as a child of wrath and a hater of God...a natural man. If God's legal, eternal justification does not affect him until he comes under the special work of the Holy Spirit in calling and regeneration then there must be a period of time in which he is indeed a God hater and an eternally justified person at the same time.
If this is not true then please explain to me his condition...in that period of time in his life being eternally justified before God but a rebel in his unregenerated heart.
Unless regeneration is concurrent with the giving of physical life then there has to be a period of time between the declaration of his justification before God and his regeneration on earth. What condition is he in during that intermediate state?
Thanks
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, You are the kindest man I have encountered in that you cross-examined what I do believe. No one has done it the same way you did. And your valid objections have given me opportunity to make things clearer. Many other just dismiss the whole matter, foam a lots of hot air, call me names but you pursued and inquired. For that, I own you as a very good brother. And I mean every word of it. You are the man, brother!
Now, coming to your inquiry. I believe the difficulty lies in your understanding of what I have said concerning our justification that was decreed by God in eternity when none ever existed. This aspect of justification, only in the mind of God concerning His elect, CLEARLY has no effect on the elect personally. In fact the elect did not even exist them. And even when they do exist, this aspect of justification has no effect upon the elect PERSONALLY whatsoever.
The reason is simply: what have been decreed by God in eternity, and legally accomplished by Christ has no effect on each elect PERSONALLY/VITALLY until it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
Nevertheless, the Scriptures is clear that God decreed to justify His elect by Christ, and the Scriptures is also very clear that Christ accomplished the justification for His people (those given to Him by the Father). But what is a DECREED, and ACCOMPLISHED LEGAL fact by the work of Jesus Christ has to be APPLIED to each ELECT personally before it AFFECTS an elect PERSONALLY.
Please read what is summarized by our old particular baptists. They put it very neatly and precisely in 1689.11.4
"God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
Note those few words, "nevertheless, they are not justified PERSONALLY, UNTIL....." These words presuppose that the elect were justified in the decretal sense, and the legal sense, but NOT in the personal sense... because that justification has not been APPLIED PERSONALLY. (the non elect were never justified in the decretal sense not the legal sense - and justification will never be applied to them in the personal sense... and they will never experienced justification through faith in Jesus Christ).
If you understand this, then all your valid question about the 'intermediate state' of the elect is adequately answered.
Sing F Lau
The elects' personal condition during that 'intermediate state' is exactly what every child of Adam is in by nature.
"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh a...nd of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
DECRETAL and LEGAL realities do not affect the elects' personal condition UNTIL it is APPLIED to each elect PERSONALLY.
But the decretal and legal realities cannot be denied! All stated plainly for us to believe!"
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
I consider it a great kindness on your part to cross-examine my feeble understanding of Scriptures. Thanks brother. I am off to bed! Wifey fuming I stay up so late (12.38am)
Marrow
Brother Sing, i thank you for helping me understand your position. Justification is a completely legal term. The elect are justified through the decree of God..the nonelect are not. The elect are bought by Christ in his work on their behalf on the cross..the nonelect have no individual, particular benefit. The elect are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and thus repent and believe the Gospel.
I must agree with you only I also believe that the elect are made aware of this by the preaching of the Gospel (and here is where we must agree to disagree) and that none of the elect will be left without this awareness...or in the lingo I am used to using...they will be convicted and brought to repentance and faith in this life.
Much of what we have been talking about has to do with the thought patterns and language we use... You have been trained to think more precisely than I have and so your use of words is more exact. Thanks for the discussion.
Please apologize to you wife for me :^)
Sing F Lau
I gather from your reply above that EVERY sentient child of God will have the gospel ministry brought to him, have him converted and brought to faith in Jesus Christ. Am I right?
(The gospel ministry is intended for the sentient alone - it requires hearing and understanding and believing, all of which require rational faculty.)
Apostle Paul's ministry is described like this:
"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ."
Those three verbs - reasoned, opening and alleging - are interesting and apt. The gospel ministry treats the hearers with dignity, that they are rational creatures and capable of being reasoned with. (of course only the regenerated can be reasoned with with spiritual things.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Apostle Paul OBVIOUSLY have the children of God in mind in his ministry - EVEN THOUGH he does not know who among the hearers are children of God.
Chapin
@ Sing Do I understand this brother doesn't believe there will be some in Eternity with the Lord who have never heard the gospel, and as such can not comply with the instructions of the gospel?
Sing F Lau
I always want to represent others accurately, no matter how much I disagree with them.
Presently, I believe Dr Marrow believes that EVERY SENTIENT elect of God will hear the gospel (including the pelagian and arminian versions of it) ministered to them, brought to faith in Jesus Christ.
Dr Marrow does believe that the NON-sentient elect is EXEMPTED from that requirement for entry into heaven. In this sense, he does believe that there will be some in eternity with the Lord who have never heard the gospel. (So, in his mind, there is a normal way of regeneration WITH the instrumentality of the gospel, and the exceptional way of regeneration WITHOUT the instrumentality of the gospel! For this common and popular error, read here!)
However, the gospel ministry was never intended for such to begin with!
May be, he can speak for himself.
I believe there will be many of God's children in eternal glory who have never heard the gospel while here on earth. These ARE in addition to the 'non-sentient' ones.
