Read the
initial exchanges here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/156323887752880
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/156323887752880
Sing
January
13, 2011 at 10:00 AM ·
Scriptures
declares:
"The
just shall live by faith."
Old Baptists
state:
"The
reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why
they have faith IS because they are justified."
New Baptists
insist:
"By
faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."
Let God
be true but every man a liar.
Sing
No new Baptist
will accept the declaration: "The reason why any are justified IS NOT
because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are
justified."
This old school doctrine repudiate the heretical doctrine of justification by faith alone.
Jerry
Chapin
The new
school Baptist can't decide which came first, the egg or the chicken...
Erick
Chanax
What do
you mean new Baptist? By the way I am not a Baptist
Sing
"The
just shall live by faith" declares that justification is the CAUSE, and
living by faith is an EFFECT. Isn't it such a plain and glorious declaration of
grace!
Old
Baptists understood that plain declaration from heaven, put the same truth in
such a way that no one can miss the truth.
New
Baptists, being taught by someone else, reject that truth and embrace a
teaching diametrically opposed to it!
New
Baptists, including the RBs, are not descendants of the Old Baptists, whatever
they want to claim.
Sing
Erick,
among the sprinklers, there are also Old School and the New School...
Sing
Scriptures
declares: "The just shall live by faith."
Old Baptists
state: "The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith;
but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
New Baptists
insist: "By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."
QUESTION:
whatever has BEWITCHED these new Baptists brethren? Yes, they are BRETHREN no
less, but bewitched brethren.
And I am making noise because of this injunction:
19
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let
him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall
save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Bill
Hier
There
are many stripes of Baptists, from of old - when you speak of the Old School
Baptist, I am thinking you mean the Particular Baptists?
If there
are any others of the Baptists you are referring too, would you mind putting
such into the post?
As for
New School Baptists, I know of many who would not hold to anything of the 1689
confession except in very shallow part, such as the independent Baptists and
the free-will Baptists; yet, unless they deny Christ came in the flesh, living
a lifestyle that matches this, I must consider them brethren, if not fully
informed of that which the Scriptures teach.
Sing
Old
School: Speaking for myself, I would say pre Fuller Particular Baptists, Gospel
Standard Strict and Particular Baptists (Gadsbyites - Gillites), Old Line
Primitive Baptists in America, and Sing in Malaysia. :-) Brother Sing can
define his own boundaries. All others.....New Schoolers.
Sing
Bill @
There are many stripes of Baptists, from of old - when you speak of the Old
School Baptist, I am thinking you mean the Particular Baptists?
==========
I have
chosen a simple statement as a convenient water shed that divide the old school
baptists from the new school baptists (I don't have the freewill arminian
baptists in mind at all) - but those who claim to hold on to the 1689 CoF.
And this
is the water shed statement that divides them neatly:
Old
baptists state:
"The
reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why
they have faith IS because they are justified."
New
baptists insist: "By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and
live."
Sing
"By
faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."
Isn't
this statement riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies? And why are the
new school baptists OBLIVIOUS of them? What has BEWITCHED them dear brethren?
Sing
That
faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no doubt; that the
righteousness is that from which the faith springs, I also have no doubt, for
it is not their own righteousness, but Christ's, as even the faith they live by
is gifted to them by God - grace and faith are inextricably linked, from what I
see in the Scriptures: how, then, should righteousness be separated from the
entirety of the work of salvation, since it is all of one work, and that God's?
==================
@'That
faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no doubt;"
Q. How
are they linked together?
Are they
linked this way: The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have
faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified.
Or are
they linked this way: By faith (man's act of believing alone the condemned
shall be justified and live.
Or in
some other way? The faith that is linked to being declared righteous, what is
that faith? Is that faith man's act of believing (ok granted, it is God's gift
to begin with... but man must do the believing)? Is that faith something else?
Please tell us.
Does it
ever occur to you that justification is based on the faith OF Jesus Christ,
THAT IS, the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the
law of God, i.e. the righteousness of Christ?
Does it
ever occur to you that the Scriptures explicitly stated that our justification
before God is based on the faith OF - OF - OF Christ, THAT IS, the faithfulness
of Jesus Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the law of God, i.e. the
righteousness of Christ?
With a
slight twist and perversion, the faith OF Christ has been turned in the faith
IN Christ!
"Now
the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had
made..."
Mark
Thomas
Willingness
to do more study is a good attitude. You are entering ground you have likely
not seen plowed before. Keep your eyes open, your mind open, and compare all
things to Scripture, the great standard by which to judge all things.
Mark
Thomas
Bro.
Sing, I like the way you have reduced the argument down to a single issue. Very
neat and clean. Very Scriptural. Do at some point, catagorize the various
stages of Justification as you see them. Very mind opening for the uninitiated
to the current ground being plowed.
Mark
Thomas
Bill
Hier: ‘How one can separate being declared righteous and having faith is not
something I have come across, except, perhaps, in those papers I linked you
too, Sing.'
Brother
Bill, fine distinctions are the hallmark of sound theology. Keep listening and
studying and the distinctions will be presented. God bless all those willing to
study His Word.
Mark
Thomas
OF OF OF Christ..............One must have the real Bible to have the real truth to speak to the fine line distinctions of true Biblical theology. Speak on Brother Sing, I am listening.............
OF OF OF Christ..............One must have the real Bible to have the real truth to speak to the fine line distinctions of true Biblical theology. Speak on Brother Sing, I am listening.............
Mark
Thomas
Brother
Bill, I am a King James only man in this sense: I find no other translation
that satisfies my desire for scholarship and commitment to scholarship beyond
any other measure of standard. I am not a King James only man in the extremes
that some take in our day. Lets not make this about version. Let us make this
about consistency of Scriptural truth properly considered. Agreed?
Sing
Bill @
"I believe that one proceeds from the other, Sing - I did not think my
statement at all ambiguous. If you ask: How, and which, proceeds from the
other, I would think that you read with ambiguity, but I did not write in such
a way."
==========
Brother
Bill, I am not reading with ambiguity. I am asking to ascertain the exact
meaning of what you are saying. So, please don't be annoyed if I asked to
ascertain the exact meaning of what you are saying. This is to facilitate
meaningful discussion.
I also
believe that one proceeds from the other. So, may I ask, what proceeds from
what? And how does one proceed from the other?
You made
the statement, 'That faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no
doubt."
You said
they are linked and I wish to know how are they linked in your understanding.
Which I why inquire, how are they linked together?
Are they
linked this way: The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have
faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified.
Or are
they linked this way: By faith (man's act of believing) alone the condemned
(i.e. un-justified) shall be justified and live.
Let us
just keep the 'faith' as referring to the believing act of man. Later on I will
start another thread on the 'faith OF Christ' and 'your faith in Christ'...
Sing
"
Let us make this about consistency of Scriptural truth properly considered.
Agreed?"
That's
an apt proposal. After all that's the essence of rightly dividing the word of
truth - something required of a student of God's word.
Amen. It
will save us from tedious wrangling on the various versions. I am most
dis-inclined in that direction.
Mark
Thomas
Agreed
Brother Sing. Wranglings over versions will get us nowhere.
Sing
Jp Rea,
am I one of your neighbor?
If you
wish to talk about love, start a separate thread please.
The
whole basis of everything I write is based on James 5:19,20. So, if you think I
am unloving in raising the issues, please find a lo...ving place to express
your sentiment. And if you are so loving, show us the truth of the Scriptures
on the particular subject under consideration. Shoot, and shot sparingly BUT
accurately. Don't waste bullets
The
righteousness of God through faith - whose faith
Is it
the righteousness of God through the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ,
Or is it
the righteousness of God through your faith IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ?
Any
difference? Are they saying the same things?
Please
don't reply in this thread. I have a separate thread dealing with that
particular topic. You are invited to continue your thoughts there.
Wayne
Camp
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
Benjamin
David Stanaland Sr.
The
whole reason that they, "The Old Baptist," exist is to prove;
1. that
you do not have to argue about the gospel,
2. need
earthly institutions materials,
or
3. have
need of the approval human institutions in order to meet, pray or express their
love of the Holy Spirit from one heart one to another.
Let us
all move far away from endless debates and questions that imply that one a worshiper is greater than another.
A good friend once advised me, "Be careful of what you criticize, one day you may
become it."
Wayne
Camp
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not
condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not
believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Faith is
necessary if one is to be delivered from condemnation. Jesus made it clear in
the above verse that the unbeliever is condemned because he has not believed in
the name of the only begotten son of God. The Greek word translated because is
hoti which is a causative word. Unbelief causes the unbeliever to be condemned.
Wayne
Camp
It is
true that Devils believe and tremble. But, Christ did not die for Devils. Only
those for whom he died can be justified.
Wayne
Camp
I
believe that faith is a gift of God granted him regeneration. I believe that
regeneration is a sovereign act of God. What God requires he graciously grants
just is a grant repentance and faith to his elect.
Granted
IN regeneration
Wayne
Camp
Not all
men who believe in Jesus are saved.John 2:23-24 Now when he was in Jerusalem at
the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the
miracles which he did. (24) But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because
he knew all men,
Wayne
Camp
Some
Jews who believed on Jesus later wanted to kill him.
John
8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in
my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and
the truth shall make you free.
John
8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my
word. (44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye
will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his
own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Delete
or hide this
Wayne
Camp
Which
comes first? Justification or faith?
It is
apparent that the logical order is faith first, then justification. Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the
law. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our
schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was
counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God,
and it was accounted to him for righteousness. James 2:23 And the scripture was
fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for
righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Sing
Wayne@ Which comes first? Justification or faith?
Wayne@ Which comes first? Justification or faith?
=====
You may
like to learn that there are more to justification than experiential
justification by your act of believing.
There is
the legal justification of all the elect at the cross. This is when
righteousness of Christ was legally IMPUTED to all His elect.
There is
the vital/personal justification at effectual calling out of the state of
condemnation and death to that of justification and life. This is when the
righteousness of Christ is APPLIED/IMPARTED to an elect personally. What was
only legal is now made personal and vital.
This
enables a child of God to believe. When he believe, his believing JUSTIFIES him
EVIDENTIALLY, that he is ALREADY - ALREADY - ALREADY justified by the free
grace of God.
Legal
justification by blood, and vital/personal justification by God's free grace is
PRIOR - PRIOR - PRIOR to evidential/experiential justification by one's faith
in Christ.
Old
schol baptists declared thus:
"The
reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why
they have faith IS because they are justified."
New
school baptists believe the OPPOSITE!
Sing
Wayne @
"Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was
counted unto him for righteousness."
=====
While I
don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to think... otherwise, I do get
annoyed.
Let me
ask you a question: was Abraham still a man in his native state of condemnation
(unjustified by God) between Gen 12-14, i.e prior to Gen 15:1-6?
Why does
EVERY reformed people insist that Abraham was justified BY GOD in Gen 15:1-6,
implying that Abraham was still an un-justified man by God, and therefore still
in his native state of condemnation and death?
Read Gen
12-14 again.... what kind of a man do you see in Abraham?
God
justifies the UNGODLY.
Faith
justifies the believing.
Do you
know the distinction?
How does
God justify?
And how
does believing justify?
Is the
imputation of Christ righteousness to a condemned man personally for his
justification, and the imputation of man's believing act to him for
justification speaking of the same justification?
Please
answers these questions. Speak directly to these questions. Aim well and
conserve bullets! Hard times are coming to USA
Matthew
Ong
Galatian
5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness,>>> faith<<<, Meekness, temperance:
against such there is no law.
The
above verse is important and how Saul who became Apostle Paul clearly shows
that NO ONE preached anything to him. He did NOT believe until he is directly
justified by Jesus Christ himself. Before his regeneration, Saul was a dead
sinner in which he personally testifies that in other new testament scripture
like Roman 3 for instance.
Therefore,
I believe in what Brother Lau has shown here.
Sing F
Lau
Bill @ Does this not suggest - strongly - regeneration prior to confession of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?
Bill @ Does this not suggest - strongly - regeneration prior to confession of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?
=====
Good
observation.
I take
it as an evident truth that life must precede any activity of that life. If two
men are not agreed on this point, there can be no more profitable
communication. Only a very irrational and nonsensical man choose to believe
that the activities of life precede that life . The evidence
against that fiction is everywhere around him.
Having
said that it is no less irrational and nonsensical that life can precede the
removal of the condemnation of death through the imputation of righteousness
and the forgiveness of sins leading to the justification of life.
Sins
brings a condemnation of death.
Righteousness
brings justification of life. See Roman 5:18.
Justification
of life by the free grace of God MUST LOGICALLY PRECEDE the regeneration by the
Holy Spirit. Both are unconditional gracious acts of God. Both precede the
evidential/experiential justification by faith.
James
says BOTH works and faith justify EVIDENTIALLY.
The RCC
teaches that BOTH works and faith justify LEGALLY.
Her many
daughters teach that faith ALONE justifies LEGALLY.
See the
big trouble???
Old
Baptists declare this:
"The
reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why
they have faith IS because they are justified" and NO new school baptists
even understand what they are saying, much less understand them!
Step-children
don't understand the Fathers.
Wayne
Camp
Sing wrote, “While I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to think... otherwise I do get annoyed.” I am wondering what makes you think that I don't think. I think you're depending too much on the Old Baptists and not on the word of God. Where in Scripture do you find justification for the two justifications which you described? I have studied the doctrine of justification for many years—most of the over 53 years that I have been preaching. Early and none ministry I noticed that in all of the confessions of faith there is an article justification. Justification before God is by faith without works of the law or any other works for that matter. Romans 4:2-7 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Sing wrote, “While I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to think... otherwise I do get annoyed.” I am wondering what makes you think that I don't think. I think you're depending too much on the Old Baptists and not on the word of God. Where in Scripture do you find justification for the two justifications which you described? I have studied the doctrine of justification for many years—most of the over 53 years that I have been preaching. Early and none ministry I noticed that in all of the confessions of faith there is an article justification. Justification before God is by faith without works of the law or any other works for that matter. Romans 4:2-7 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Justification
before man is by living holy lives so that they may see our good works and
glorify our Father which is in heaven. James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father
justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James
2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had
received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
Sing
Brother
Wayne, I am glad you are thinking. So i am going to ask you a question... based
on your understanding that a man's justification is by faith... was Abraham
justified by God in Gen 12-14, or was he still an unjustified man, i.e. under
the condemnation of death?
Kindly
answer this question. Then we can proceed further.
If
Abraham's justification before God took place in Gen 15:1-6, then Abraham was
still an un-justified man in Gen 12-14, he was still in his native state of
condemnation.
So,
please tell us, from your 53 years of study, was Abraham a justified man prior
to Gen 15:1-6? If he was, when was he justified? If he was, then what took
place in Gen 15:1-6.
Aim well
and shoot!
Sing
Romans 4:2-7 is speaking of the incident in Gen 15:1-6. By his believing he EXPERIENCED the blessedness of his justified state by grace, which had taken place LONG AGO in Ur.
Romans 4:2-7 is speaking of the incident in Gen 15:1-6. By his believing he EXPERIENCED the blessedness of his justified state by grace, which had taken place LONG AGO in Ur.
Legal
justification before God is by the righteousness and blood alone. The legal
condemnation of all represented by Adam took place in the garden. The legal
justification of all represented by Christ took place at the cross.
That
legal justification is APPLIED to an elect personally by God's free grace when
he was still in the state of condemnation and death. That which is LEGAL is
made personal and vital. Legal condemnation in Adam is applied to a man at his
conception in his mother's womb. Legal justification in Christ is applied to a elect at the time of regeneration.
When the righteousness of Christ is applied to an elect personally, the elect is
regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, who works all the saving graces
in him, including the saving grace of faith. This saving grace of faith
evidences itself in the act of believing when drawn forth by the preaching of
the gospel. Believing justifies a believer EVIDENTIALLY, Believing enables a
believer to experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace
of God.
Everything
I have said above is PLAINLY STATED in the 1689 CoF chapter 11. New school
baptists miss the plain truth because they wear colored glasses of 'sola
fideism'
Take a
look here:
and
here:
Sing
One central element in the forensic justification of a condemned man by God is the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to the condemned man PERSONALLY. (LEGALLY, it has happened at the cross). In other words, no accounting of Christ's righteousness, NO forensic justification - whether in the legal or personal sense! Make sense?
One central element in the forensic justification of a condemned man by God is the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to the condemned man PERSONALLY. (LEGALLY, it has happened at the cross). In other words, no accounting of Christ's righteousness, NO forensic justification - whether in the legal or personal sense! Make sense?
But
there is NO - NO - NO accounting of the righteousness of Christ in Gen 15:1-6.
There is the accounting of Abraham's act of believing unto Abraham, I.E. God
blessing the believing act of Abraham unto Abraham so that he experienced the blessedness of his justified state, by the free grace of God.
Abraham
experienced the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God,
NOT NOT NOT THROUGH his works of righteousness, but through believing.
The whole
of Gen 15:1-6 is practical/experiential justification by faith... this simple
truth has been perverted by the ignorant and confused into legal/forensic
justification by faith!
Legal
justification is by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Vital or
personal justification is by the free grace of God, i.e. legal justification is
applied to individual elect freely by God's grace, without any condition, NOT
EVEN faith... for an elect in an unjustified condemned state is INCAPABLE of
faith!
Experiential
justification is by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works of righteousness.
No amount of the works of righteousness by a child of God will enable him to
experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God.
Christ's
righteousness is contrasted with the condemned man's righteousness in LEGAL
justification.
God's
grace is contrasted with the man's enmity in VITAL/PERSONAL justification.
A man's
faith in Jesus Christ is contrasted with his works of righteousness in
EXPERIENTIAL justification.
Wayne
Camp
Sing, I
have carefully read Genesis 12-14 and I find no mention of Abraham being
justified in those two chapters. It must be between the lines are on the
margins because it is not in the words of Scripture. The first mention of
Abraham being justified is found in Genesis 15:6. It is this verse and the
verses around it to which Paul makes reference in Romans and Galatians. Genesis
15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
If you know of a verse in chapters 12-14 that say that Abraham was justified
please let me know. Inference and extrapolation should not be the basis of such
a fundamental doctrine. You do not need inference or extrapolation to arrive
that the fact that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6. Paul makes it very
clear that that is when it happened. Galatians 3:6-8 Even as Abraham believed
God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (7) Know ye therefore that they
which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the
scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,
preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be
blessed. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it
was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that
a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 5:1 Therefore
being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is
somewhat strange to me that in the New Testament when Abraham's justification
is mentioned in the Scriptures they always point back to what happened in
Genesis 15 not to Genesis 12-14. Apparently, when we talk about justification
we should keep that in mind rather than going beyond what Scripture actually
says.
Wayne
Camp
Sing,
can you cite a New Testament Scripture which dates Abraham's justification back
to Ur of the Chaldees? I know you cannot cite one in the Old Testament but
perhaps there is one that I've overlooked in the New Testament.
Sing
Sing, can you cite a New Testament Scripture which dates Abraham's justification back to Ur of the Chaldees? I know you cannot cite one in the Old Testament but perhaps there is one that I've overlooked in the New Testament.
Sing, can you cite a New Testament Scripture which dates Abraham's justification back to Ur of the Chaldees? I know you cannot cite one in the Old Testament but perhaps there is one that I've overlooked in the New Testament.
=========
Wayne,
now you are thinking, because you are asking questions
Please
tell me, when you read Gen 12-14, do you see an Abraham that is still in his
native state of condemnation of death, or in his state of justification of
life?
The
Scriptures said that God called Abraham out of the idolatrous land of Ur.
Can you
please tell us what is involved in that calling of Abraham by God? What did God
do to Abraham personally?
Sing
Wayne @ "It is somewhat strange to me that in the New Testament when Abraham's justification is mentioned in the Scriptures they always point back to what happened in Genesis 15 not to Genesis 12-14. Apparently, when we talk about justification we should keep that in mind rather than going beyond what Scripture actually says."
Wayne @ "It is somewhat strange to me that in the New Testament when Abraham's justification is mentioned in the Scriptures they always point back to what happened in Genesis 15 not to Genesis 12-14. Apparently, when we talk about justification we should keep that in mind rather than going beyond what Scripture actually says."
========
It is
strange ONLY BECAUSE you are STILL IGNORANT of the simple fact that there are
DIFFERENT DISTINCT ASPECTS of justification PLAINLY spoken of in the Bible...
but you are only aware of ONE ASPECT.
That is
where the problem lies.
The doctrine of justification is like a MULTI-FACETED jewel... but so many
vision-impaired students of God's word see it as a plain glass marble... like
you! No disrespect intended... just diagnosing the problem.
May our
Lord provide cure to restore the vision.
God
justifies the ungodly...and
faith
justifies the believing are
TWO
DIFFERENT and DISTINCT matters.
Sing F
Lau
Wayne,
it is very apparent that you did not read what I have written in the post
immediately prior to your post that started with this words, "Sing, I have
carefully read Genesis 12-14 and I find no mention of Abraham being justified
in those two chapters..."
If you
are thinking, please read that post and think, and think clearly what is said
there.
Wayne
Camp
But how does God justify the ungodly? His faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
But how does God justify the ungodly? His faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Who
would justify the heathen? God would justify them. How would God justify them?
Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that GOD WOULD JUSTIFY THE HEATHEN
THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall
all nations be blessed.
SURELY AN OMNISCIENT BIBLE SCHOLAR SUCH AS YOURSELF COULD SEE THAT!
Wayne
Camp
Sing,
are you blinded by your own egotistical estimation of your scholarship? 2
Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare
ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by
themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. Proverbs
26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool
than of him. Job 12:2 No doubt … wisdom shall die with you.
Sing
Wayne, you still DON'T get it.
Wayne, you still DON'T get it.
The
ungodly is INCAPABLE of faith... he is in the state of condemnation of death.
God
justifying the ungodly,
and
faith justifying the believing are
TWO
DIFFERENT and DISTINCT events.
All you have at the moment is a cheapskate marble.
Learn
the truth, and exchange it for a multi-faceted jewel.
This is
no insult, but a brotherly exhortation.
Just
slow down and read some, and digest some.
Sing
Wayne, I
have NIL scholarship. If I have any, you would have AGREED with me. But I don't
have, and so say things that are rejected by a scholar like yourself! But I am a
student of God's word. So, don't waste your precious bullet spraying in that direction!
Have you
decided whether Abraham was already a justified man by God in Gen 12-14, or was
he still a man under his native state of condemnation?
Matthew
Ong
@Wayne:
I am not a scholar also and I was a born Buddhist and baptized in a Methodist
church.
Justification
is the choice and act initialize from the LORD to sinners and not sinners'
rights to the LORD.
The new
covenant contract is given from the LORD to the sinners via Jesus Christ on the
cross and NOT after the cross all sinners by his/her choice to believe that
leads to giving of covenant to sinners.
Like in
the case of earthly kingdom, the act of pardon has to be given first to the
capital punishment criminal.
While
many may have come to the court for appeal, pardons are NOT always given to all
that appeal and believe on the legal source person that gives it. It is the
total choice of HIS own council to demonstrate HIS Glorious Mercy for HIS own
sovereign Glory. This legal method totally crush the pride in all fleshly hearts.
If all
that believe are given pardon, then the devil(satan/lucifer) himself whom seen
and in many case appear before the LORD of heaven and earth would have been
automatically pardoned and that is totally NOT just and No gospel at all!!!
To
Humanistic Utopian heaven on earth now efforts, this does not seems fair
because there is no court of appeal when the list of pardon is already
determined by the LORD before the foundation of the earth.
Benjamin
David Stanaland Sr.
Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for 'flesh and blood' hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. ;-)
Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for 'flesh and blood' hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. ;-)
