New School Fullerites versus Old School Gillites

Read the initial exchanges here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/156323887752880

Sing

January 13, 2011 at 10:00 AM ·

Scriptures declares:

"The just shall live by faith."

Old Baptists state:

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

New Baptists insist:

"By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."

Let God be true but every man a liar.

Sing

No new Baptist will accept the declaration: "The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

This old school doctrine repudiate the heretical doctrine of justification by faith alone.

Jerry Chapin

The new school Baptist can't decide which came first, the egg or the chicken...

Erick Chanax

What do you mean new Baptist? By the way I am not a Baptist

Sing

"The just shall live by faith" declares that justification is the CAUSE, and living by faith is an EFFECT. Isn't it such a plain and glorious declaration of grace!

Old Baptists understood that plain declaration from heaven, put the same truth in such a way that no one can miss the truth.

New Baptists, being taught by someone else, reject that truth and embrace a teaching diametrically opposed to it!

New Baptists, including the RBs, are not descendants of the Old Baptists, whatever they want to claim.

Sing

Erick, among the sprinklers, there are also Old School and the New School...

Sing

Scriptures declares: "The just shall live by faith."

Old Baptists state: "The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

New Baptists insist: "By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."

QUESTION: whatever has BEWITCHED these new Baptists brethren? Yes, they are BRETHREN no less, but bewitched brethren.

And I am making noise because of this injunction:

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Bill Hier

There are many stripes of Baptists, from of old - when you speak of the Old School Baptist, I am thinking you mean the Particular Baptists?

If there are any others of the Baptists you are referring too, would you mind putting such into the post?

As for New School Baptists, I know of many who would not hold to anything of the 1689 confession except in very shallow part, such as the independent Baptists and the free-will Baptists; yet, unless they deny Christ came in the flesh, living a lifestyle that matches this, I must consider them brethren, if not fully informed of that which the Scriptures teach.

Sing

Old School: Speaking for myself, I would say pre Fuller Particular Baptists, Gospel Standard Strict and Particular Baptists (Gadsbyites - Gillites), Old Line Primitive Baptists in America, and Sing in Malaysia. :-) Brother Sing can define his own boundaries. All others.....New Schoolers.

Sing

Bill @ There are many stripes of Baptists, from of old - when you speak of the Old School Baptist, I am thinking you mean the Particular Baptists?

==========

I have chosen a simple statement as a convenient water shed that divide the old school baptists from the new school baptists (I don't have the freewill arminian baptists in mind at all) - but those who claim to hold on to the 1689 CoF.

And this is the water shed statement that divides them neatly:

Old baptists state:

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

New baptists insist: "By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."

Sing

"By faith alone the condemned shall be justified and live."

Isn't this statement riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies? And why are the new school baptists OBLIVIOUS of them? What has BEWITCHED them dear brethren?

Sing

That faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no doubt; that the righteousness is that from which the faith springs, I also have no doubt, for it is not their own righteousness, but Christ's, as even the faith they live by is gifted to them by God - grace and faith are inextricably linked, from what I see in the Scriptures: how, then, should righteousness be separated from the entirety of the work of salvation, since it is all of one work, and that God's?

==================

@'That faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no doubt;"

Q. How are they linked together?

Are they linked this way: The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified.

Or are they linked this way: By faith (man's act of believing alone the condemned shall be justified and live.

Or in some other way? The faith that is linked to being declared righteous, what is that faith? Is that faith man's act of believing (ok granted, it is God's gift to begin with... but man must do the believing)? Is that faith something else? Please tell us.

Does it ever occur to you that justification is based on the faith OF Jesus Christ, THAT IS, the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the law of God, i.e. the righteousness of Christ?

Does it ever occur to you that the Scriptures explicitly stated that our justification before God is based on the faith OF - OF - OF Christ, THAT IS, the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the law of God, i.e. the righteousness of Christ?

With a slight twist and perversion, the faith OF Christ has been turned in the faith IN Christ!

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made..."

Mark Thomas

Willingness to do more study is a good attitude. You are entering ground you have likely not seen plowed before. Keep your eyes open, your mind open, and compare all things to Scripture, the great standard by which to judge all things.

Mark Thomas

Bro. Sing, I like the way you have reduced the argument down to a single issue. Very neat and clean. Very Scriptural. Do at some point, catagorize the various stages of Justification as you see them. Very mind opening for the uninitiated to the current ground being plowed.

Mark Thomas

Bill Hier: ‘How one can separate being declared righteous and having faith is not something I have come across, except, perhaps, in those papers I linked you too, Sing.'

Brother Bill, fine distinctions are the hallmark of sound theology. Keep listening and studying and the distinctions will be presented. God bless all those willing to study His Word.

Mark Thomas
OF OF OF Christ..............One must have the real Bible to have the real truth to speak to the fine line distinctions of true Biblical theology. Speak on Brother Sing, I am listening.............

Mark Thomas

Brother Bill, I am a King James only man in this sense: I find no other translation that satisfies my desire for scholarship and commitment to scholarship beyond any other measure of standard. I am not a King James only man in the extremes that some take in our day. Lets not make this about version. Let us make this about consistency of Scriptural truth properly considered. Agreed?

Sing

Bill @ "I believe that one proceeds from the other, Sing - I did not think my statement at all ambiguous. If you ask: How, and which, proceeds from the other, I would think that you read with ambiguity, but I did not write in such a way."

==========

Brother Bill, I am not reading with ambiguity. I am asking to ascertain the exact meaning of what you are saying. So, please don't be annoyed if I asked to ascertain the exact meaning of what you are saying. This is to facilitate meaningful discussion.

I also believe that one proceeds from the other. So, may I ask, what proceeds from what? And how does one proceed from the other?

You made the statement, 'That faith is linked to being declared righteous, I have no doubt."

You said they are linked and I wish to know how are they linked in your understanding. Which I why inquire, how are they linked together?

Are they linked this way: The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified.

Or are they linked this way: By faith (man's act of believing) alone the condemned (i.e. un-justified) shall be justified and live.

Let us just keep the 'faith' as referring to the believing act of man. Later on I will start another thread on the 'faith OF Christ' and 'your faith in Christ'...

Sing

" Let us make this about consistency of Scriptural truth properly considered. Agreed?"

That's an apt proposal. After all that's the essence of rightly dividing the word of truth - something required of a student of God's word.

Amen. It will save us from tedious wrangling on the various versions. I am most dis-inclined in that direction.

Mark Thomas

Agreed Brother Sing. Wranglings over versions will get us nowhere.

Sing

Jp Rea, am I one of your neighbor?

If you wish to talk about love, start a separate thread please.

The whole basis of everything I write is based on James 5:19,20. So, if you think I am unloving in raising the issues, please find a lo...ving place to express your sentiment. And if you are so loving, show us the truth of the Scriptures on the particular subject under consideration. Shoot, and shot sparingly BUT accurately. Don't waste bullets

The righteousness of God through faith - whose faith

Is it the righteousness of God through the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ,

Or is it the righteousness of God through your faith IN - IN - IN Jesus Christ?

Any difference? Are they saying the same things?

Please don't reply in this thread. I have a separate thread dealing with that particular topic. You are invited to continue your thoughts there.

Wayne Camp

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Benjamin David Stanaland Sr.

The whole reason that they, "The Old Baptist," exist is to prove;

1. that you do not have to argue about the gospel,

2. need earthly institutions materials,

or

3. have need of the approval human institutions in order to meet, pray or express their love of the Holy Spirit from one heart one to another.

Let us all move far away from endless debates and questions that imply that one a worshiper is greater than another.

A good friend once advised me, "Be careful of what you criticize, one day you may become it."

Wayne Camp

 John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Faith is necessary if one is to be delivered from condemnation. Jesus made it clear in the above verse that the unbeliever is condemned because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. The Greek word translated because is hoti which is a causative word. Unbelief causes the unbeliever to be condemned.

Wayne Camp

It is true that Devils believe and tremble. But, Christ did not die for Devils. Only those for whom he died can be justified.

Wayne Camp

I believe that faith is a gift of God granted him regeneration. I believe that regeneration is a sovereign act of God. What God requires he graciously grants just is a grant repentance and faith to his elect.

Granted IN regeneration

Wayne Camp

Not all men who believe in Jesus are saved.John 2:23-24 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. (24) But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

Wayne Camp

Some Jews who believed on Jesus later wanted to kill him.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. (44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Delete or hide this

Wayne Camp

Which comes first? Justification or faith?

It is apparent that the logical order is faith first, then justification. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Sing
Wayne@ Which comes first? Justification or faith?

=====

You may like to learn that there are more to justification than experiential justification by your act of believing.

There is the legal justification of all the elect at the cross. This is when righteousness of Christ was legally IMPUTED to all His elect.

There is the vital/personal justification at effectual calling out of the state of condemnation and death to that of justification and life. This is when the righteousness of Christ is APPLIED/IMPARTED to an elect personally. What was only legal is now made personal and vital.

This enables a child of God to believe. When he believe, his believing JUSTIFIES him EVIDENTIALLY, that he is ALREADY - ALREADY - ALREADY justified by the free grace of God.

Legal justification by blood, and vital/personal justification by God's free grace is PRIOR - PRIOR - PRIOR to evidential/experiential justification by one's faith in Christ.

Old schol baptists declared thus:

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

New school baptists believe the OPPOSITE!

Sing

Wayne @ "Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

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While I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to think... otherwise, I do get annoyed.

Let me ask you a question: was Abraham still a man in his native state of condemnation (unjustified by God) between Gen 12-14, i.e prior to Gen 15:1-6?

Why does EVERY reformed people insist that Abraham was justified BY GOD in Gen 15:1-6, implying that Abraham was still an un-justified man by God, and therefore still in his native state of condemnation and death?

Read Gen 12-14 again.... what kind of a man do you see in Abraham?

God justifies the UNGODLY.

Faith justifies the believing.

Do you know the distinction?

How does God justify?

And how does believing justify?

Is the imputation of Christ righteousness to a condemned man personally for his justification, and the imputation of man's believing act to him for justification speaking of the same justification?

Please answers these questions. Speak directly to these questions. Aim well and conserve bullets! Hard times are coming to USA

Matthew Ong

Galatian 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,>>> faith<<<, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The above verse is important and how Saul who became Apostle Paul clearly shows that NO ONE preached anything to him. He did NOT believe until he is directly justified by Jesus Christ himself. Before his regeneration, Saul was a dead sinner in which he personally testifies that in other new testament scripture like Roman 3 for instance.

Therefore, I believe in what Brother Lau has shown here.

Sing F Lau
Bill @ Does this not suggest - strongly - regeneration prior to confession of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ?

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Good observation.

I take it as an evident truth that life must precede any activity of that life. If two men are not agreed on this point, there can be no more profitable communication. Only a very irrational and nonsensical man choose to believe that the activities of life precede that life . The evidence against that fiction is everywhere around him.

Having said that it is no less irrational and nonsensical that life can precede the removal of the condemnation of death through the imputation of righteousness and the forgiveness of sins leading to the justification of life.

Sins brings a condemnation of death.

Righteousness brings justification of life. See Roman 5:18.

Justification of life by the free grace of God MUST LOGICALLY PRECEDE the regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Both are unconditional gracious acts of God. Both precede the evidential/experiential justification by faith.

James says BOTH works and faith justify EVIDENTIALLY.

The RCC teaches that BOTH works and faith justify LEGALLY.

Her many daughters teach that faith ALONE justifies LEGALLY.

See the big trouble???

Old Baptists declare this:

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified" and NO new school baptists even understand what they are saying, much less understand them!

Step-children don't understand the Fathers.

Wayne Camp
Sing wrote, “While I don't expect you to agree, I do expect you to think... otherwise I do get annoyed.” I am wondering what makes you think that I don't think. I think you're depending too much on the Old Baptists and not on the word of God. Where in Scripture do you find justification for the two justifications which you described? I have studied the doctrine of justification for many years—most of the over 53 years that I have been preaching. Early and none ministry I noticed that in all of the confessions of faith there is an article justification. Justification before God is by faith without works of the law or any other works for that matter. Romans 4:2-7 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. (3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Justification before man is by living holy lives so that they may see our good works and glorify our Father which is in heaven. James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?

Sing

Brother Wayne, I am glad you are thinking. So i am going to ask you a question... based on your understanding that a man's justification is by faith... was Abraham justified by God in Gen 12-14, or was he still an unjustified man, i.e. under the condemnation of death?

Kindly answer this question. Then we can proceed further.

If Abraham's justification before God took place in Gen 15:1-6, then Abraham was still an un-justified man in Gen 12-14, he was still in his native state of condemnation.

So, please tell us, from your 53 years of study, was Abraham a justified man prior to Gen 15:1-6? If he was, when was he justified? If he was, then what took place in Gen 15:1-6.

Aim well and shoot!

Sing
Romans 4:2-7 is speaking of the incident in Gen 15:1-6. By his believing he EXPERIENCED the blessedness of his justified state by grace, which had taken place LONG AGO in Ur.

Legal justification before God is by the righteousness and blood alone. The legal condemnation of all represented by Adam took place in the garden. The legal justification of all represented by Christ took place at the cross.

That legal justification is APPLIED to an elect personally by God's free grace when he was still in the state of condemnation and death. That which is LEGAL is made personal and vital. Legal condemnation in Adam is applied to a man at his conception in his mother's womb. Legal justification in Christ is applied to a  elect at the time of regeneration.

When the righteousness of Christ is applied to an elect personally, the elect is regenerated and indwelt with the Holy Spirit, who works all the saving graces in him, including the saving grace of faith. This saving grace of faith evidences itself in the act of believing when drawn forth by the preaching of the gospel. Believing justifies a believer EVIDENTIALLY, Believing enables a believer to experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God.

Everything I have said above is PLAINLY STATED in the 1689 CoF chapter 11. New school baptists miss the plain truth because they wear colored glasses of 'sola fideism'

Take a look here:

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/.../even-so-and...

and here:

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/.../therefore-as...

Sing
One central element in the forensic justification of a condemned man by God is the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to the condemned man PERSONALLY. (LEGALLY, it has happened at the cross). In other words, no accounting of Christ's righteousness, NO forensic justification - whether in the legal or personal sense! Make sense?

But there is NO - NO - NO accounting of the righteousness of Christ in Gen 15:1-6. There is the accounting of Abraham's act of believing unto Abraham, I.E. God blessing the believing act of Abraham unto Abraham so that he experienced the blessedness of his justified state, by the free grace of God.

Abraham experienced the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God, NOT NOT NOT THROUGH his works of righteousness, but through believing.

The whole of Gen 15:1-6 is practical/experiential justification by faith... this simple truth has been perverted by the ignorant and confused into legal/forensic justification by faith!

Legal justification is by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Vital or personal justification is by the free grace of God, i.e. legal justification is applied to individual elect freely by God's grace, without any condition, NOT EVEN faith... for an elect in an unjustified condemned state is INCAPABLE of faith!

Experiential justification is by faith in Jesus Christ, not by our works of righteousness. No amount of the works of righteousness by a child of God will enable him to experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God.

Christ's righteousness is contrasted with the condemned man's righteousness in LEGAL justification.

God's grace is contrasted with the man's enmity in VITAL/PERSONAL justification.

A man's faith in Jesus Christ is contrasted with his works of righteousness in EXPERIENTIAL justification.

Wayne Camp

Sing, I have carefully read Genesis 12-14 and I find no mention of Abraham being justified in those two chapters. It must be between the lines are on the margins because it is not in the words of Scripture. The first mention of Abraham being justified is found in Genesis 15:6. It is this verse and the verses around it to which Paul makes reference in Romans and Galatians. Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. If you know of a verse in chapters 12-14 that say that Abraham was justified please let me know. Inference and extrapolation should not be the basis of such a fundamental doctrine. You do not need inference or extrapolation to arrive that the fact that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6. Paul makes it very clear that that is when it happened. Galatians 3:6-8 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (8) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is somewhat strange to me that in the New Testament when Abraham's justification is mentioned in the Scriptures they always point back to what happened in Genesis 15 not to Genesis 12-14. Apparently, when we talk about justification we should keep that in mind rather than going beyond what Scripture actually says.

Wayne Camp

Sing, can you cite a New Testament Scripture which dates Abraham's justification back to Ur of the Chaldees? I know you cannot cite one in the Old Testament but perhaps there is one that I've overlooked in the New Testament.

Sing
Sing, can you cite a New Testament Scripture which dates Abraham's justification back to Ur of the Chaldees? I know you cannot cite one in the Old Testament but perhaps there is one that I've overlooked in the New Testament.

=========

Wayne, now you are thinking, because you are asking questions

Please tell me, when you read Gen 12-14, do you see an Abraham that is still in his native state of condemnation of death, or in his state of justification of life?

The Scriptures said that God called Abraham out of the idolatrous land of Ur.

Can you please tell us what is involved in that calling of Abraham by God? What did God do to Abraham personally?

Sing 
Wayne @ "It is somewhat strange to me that in the New Testament when Abraham's justification is mentioned in the Scriptures they always point back to what happened in Genesis 15 not to Genesis 12-14. Apparently, when we talk about justification we should keep that in mind rather than going beyond what Scripture actually says."

========

It is strange ONLY BECAUSE you are STILL IGNORANT of the simple fact that there are DIFFERENT DISTINCT ASPECTS of justification PLAINLY spoken of in the Bible... but you are only aware of ONE ASPECT.

That is where the problem lies.

The doctrine of justification is like a MULTI-FACETED jewel... but so many vision-impaired students of God's word see it as a plain glass marble... like you! No disrespect intended... just diagnosing the problem.

May our Lord provide cure to restore the vision.

God justifies the ungodly...and

faith justifies the believing are

TWO DIFFERENT and DISTINCT matters.

Sing F Lau

Wayne, it is very apparent that you did not read what I have written in the post immediately prior to your post that started with this words, "Sing, I have carefully read Genesis 12-14 and I find no mention of Abraham being justified in those two chapters..."

If you are thinking, please read that post and think, and think clearly what is said there.

Wayne Camp
But how does God justify the ungodly? His faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Who would justify the heathen? God would justify them. How would God justify them? Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that GOD WOULD JUSTIFY THE HEATHEN THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

SURELY AN OMNISCIENT BIBLE SCHOLAR SUCH AS YOURSELF COULD SEE THAT!

Wayne Camp

Sing, are you blinded by your own egotistical estimation of your scholarship? 2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him. Job 12:2 No doubt … wisdom shall die with you.

Sing
Wayne, you still DON'T get it.

The ungodly is INCAPABLE of faith... he is in the state of condemnation of death.

God justifying the ungodly,

and faith justifying the believing are

TWO DIFFERENT and DISTINCT events.

All you have at the moment is a cheapskate marble.

Learn the truth, and exchange it for a multi-faceted jewel.

This is no insult, but a brotherly exhortation.

Just slow down and read some, and digest some.

Sing

Wayne, I have NIL scholarship. If I have any, you would have AGREED with me. But I don't have, and so say things that are rejected by a scholar like yourself! But I am a student of God's word. So, don't waste your precious bullet spraying in that direction!

Have you decided whether Abraham was already a justified man by God in Gen 12-14, or was he still a man under his native state of condemnation?

Matthew Ong

@Wayne: I am not a scholar also and I was a born Buddhist and baptized in a Methodist church.

Justification is the choice and act initialize from the LORD to sinners and not sinners' rights to the LORD.

The new covenant contract is given from the LORD to the sinners via Jesus Christ on the cross and NOT after the cross all sinners by his/her choice to believe that leads to giving of covenant to sinners.

Like in the case of earthly kingdom, the act of pardon has to be given first to the capital punishment criminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon

While many may have come to the court for appeal, pardons are NOT always given to all that appeal and believe on the legal source person that gives it. It is the total choice of HIS own council to demonstrate HIS Glorious Mercy for HIS own sovereign Glory. This legal method totally crush the pride in all fleshly hearts.

If all that believe are given pardon, then the devil(satan/lucifer) himself whom seen and in many case appear before the LORD of heaven and earth would have been automatically pardoned and that is totally NOT just and No gospel at all!!!

To Humanistic Utopian heaven on earth now efforts, this does not seems fair because there is no court of appeal when the list of pardon is already determined by the LORD before the foundation of the earth.

Benjamin David Stanaland Sr.
Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for 'flesh and blood' hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. ;-)