Male Painted BuntingHere are some exchanges that touched on the subject of national Israel, ethnic Jews, and the elect Jews in God's redemptive purpose.
November 5 at 11:17am
Kees"Thus says the LORD: "If the heavens above can be measured [and they can't], and the foundations of the earth below can be explored [and they can't], then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD." -Jeremiah 31:37
Those who say that national/ethnic Israel has lost their promises because of their poor behavior are making God a liar, beware beloved!
KeesHere are the two preceding verses, they are just as glorious to me, just wouldn't fit! :D
"Thus says the LORD,who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar the LORD of hosts is his name:"
"If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."
The more I learn about God's faithfulness to ethnic Israel, the more I trust Him.
Sing F LauMr Kees, Jer 31:37 is interesting.
"... then I will cast off ALL the offspring of Israel..."
Of course God did not cast off ALL... even though He did cast off MANY... even as many as do not belong to spiritual Israel. There are elect Jews among the Jewish people.
I say it is very clear that God has ABOLISHED the earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration, in the process casting off MANY. In its place is the kingdom of heaven of the new covenant administration, and some were gathered into it.
That does not mean that God has cast off ALL that belong to the earthly national theocratic Israel. This is not possible because there are also God's elect among those that belonged to the earthly national theocratic Israel.
For that reason, the Lord said, "... then I will cast off ALL the offspring of Israel..."
The earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration had served its divine purpose, had become geriatric, was abolished, and cast off.
Christ threatened and warned of the end of the earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration, and it came to pass in 70AD.
KimberlinWhat, then, do these verses mean??
Romans 11
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the G...entiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Sing F LauGood passage. Please tell us what you want these verses to teach. Thanks.
I ask a question - the partial hardening mentioned in verse 25, to whom or what has this hardening happened? Do those of Israel that are still dead in trespasses and sins need to be hardened?
Sing F LauOk, now I know you WANT the passage to teach NATIONAL ISRAEL. Thank you for being clear!
You have forgotten this, haven't you...
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
No, Apostle Paul WAS NOT speaking of national Israel... but those elected among the national of Israel.
So, you see, people read the same passage of Scriptures and understand differently.
That's is why it is NEVER sufficient to quote Scriptures and assume people know what you WANT the passage to say!
KimberlinOh, so it can just say whatever you want it to say. Now that I see where you stand, I think I'll just leave it to Dennis to take it up from here. I'm not good at shooting moving targets.
KimberlinI will just say, however, that if God has said that all those promises made to ethnic Israel were simply symbolic of what He was going to give to another group of people, then we can have no confidence that some day He won't say that the pr...omises given to us are actually symbolic of something He is going to do for some future group. Like, sure, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. He just changes what that means on a regular basis. Don't think so.
Traditions of men....
Sing F LauNo wonder you cant shoot well... because you haven't even decided which gun to use! And you can't even stay on the subject... how to shoot anything!
I think you are the one the moving targets... one moment you say NATIONAL Israel... the next moment ETHNIC Israel.
They are very different entities, are they not? Please make up you mind, whom you believe Apostle Paul is speaking of!
I don't believe there is any more NATIONAL Israel. That has been become geriatric and is abolished, never to be restored again.
However, God still has a chosen people among the ethnic Israel, just as He has a people AMONG ALL the families of the earth!
Sing F Lau@ Lily 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
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Just what are the gifts and the calling of God that are irrevocable? Nationhood, Temple, etc?
And unto whom are these gifts and calling of God - NATIONAL Israel, or the elect among the Jews? Please tell us.
Chapin @Lily, Question: Where is the Old Testament "National Israel" now?
Crocker Just wondering, do those who believe that all of the Old Testament prophecies and promises pertain to national/ethnic/natural Israel understand Rom 11:26 to mean that not a single lineal descendent of Jacob will go to hell, including those Pharisees who Jesus said were of their father, the Devil?
KeesWow...Sing, you said this: "The earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration had served its divine purpose, had become geriatric, was abolished, and cast off."
I think you are confusing the old covenant in Hebrews 8 that clearly refers to the Mosaic Covenant of works with the purpose and promises given to the nation Israel through the promises given to Abraham. In short, please explain what you have said with Scripture. Lily posted scripture, but I only see your opinions.
Romans 11:25 is saying that ethnic Israel does have a future. This is very clear. Israelites are clearly in view for many reasons, one of which is what verse 28 says:
"As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers."
They... Israel are currently and partially hardened, but they (Israel) are beloved (term for elect persons) for the sake of their (Israel) forefathers... who might their forefathers be?
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...
Verse 1 is enough to show that Israelites are in view: "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin." It couldn't get any more Jewish...
Paul says God has not rejected his people (ethnic Israel) Why not?
Paul says: 'Because I am a Jew!' It's not unclear.
Jerry, the nation of Israel consists of all the Israelites spread throughout the earth, God knows who they are, we don't have to know any more than we are required to know who elect gentiles are before preaching to them...
Ron, no, and no one teaches that.
AriyehMr. Sing, may I ask you where you learned your theology? I am a Jew who believes yeshua is the Messiah and I am interested in what makes Gentiles tick?
Apparently, you have removed the Jehudim from any and all existence. No one just believes this. Who taught you this? Are you Reformed Baptist?
Crocker If "all Israel" in not all national/ethnic Jews, who do you understand "all Israel" to be?
KeesRon, that is a reference to the full number of Israelites, similar to the fullness of the gentiles in the preceding verse. I presume that it means a great majority.
AriyehP.S. I asked if you are reformed baptist because we recently left a reformed baptist who held views against the Jews that were also contrary to the Scriptures.
You said " I ask a question - the partial hardening mentioned in verse 25, to whom or what has this hardening happened? Do those of Israel that are still dead in trespasses and sins need to be hardened?"
I will ask you a question? Were the bulk of Gentiles elect by God before the arrival of the Messiah? Let me answer the question for you. NO! Therefore, why is it not possible that the bulk of Jews are hardened this very day, so that they too will not believe the gospel?
Is the Lord not disciplining them because of their failure to recognize His arrival? The answer is given to us. "You will not see me until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Their eyes have been blinded as spoken of through the prophet Isaiah and will continue to happen until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
Who are YOU o man to reconstruct God's plan according to your hearts desires?
KeesSing, you also said:
"Of course God did not cast off ALL... even though He did cast off MANY... even as many as do not belong to spiritual Israel. There are elect Jews among the Jewish people....
I say it is very clear that God has ABOLISHED the earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration, in the process casting off MANY"
This verse is plainly talking about God's faithfulness to the nation of ethnic Israelites.
The point is this: despite the failings of ethnic Israel, God will not cast them away because He has made promises to them and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. (Rom 11:29)
Even though they go astray after other gods as a nation and eventually kill the incarnate God Himself, he will NOT cast them away because they are an elect nation. They are His people, they belong to Him. The single Jews who live godlessly and those who do not share the saving faith of Abraham will perish, but they are an elect nation and ethnically they will be kept safe until the fullness of the Gentiles come to faith. (Rom 11:25)
"Christ threatened and warned of the end of the earthly national theocratic Israel of the old covenant administration, and it came to pass in 70AD."
That is simply not the case. He didn't say 'this might happen.' he prophesied that it would happen as a prophetic sign.
"I ask a question - the partial hardening mentioned in verse 25, to whom or what has this hardening happened? Do those of Israel that are still dead in trespasses and s...ins need to be hardened?"
This is a reference to the current, partial, and temporarily rejected Israelites. God has decreed with all of His Truth in mind. We know that all men are dead in sin, so even the Jews of the Old Covenant experienced regeneration.
Simply put, the fact that all Jews are born in bondage to sin is the means by which they are hardened. God does not reserve a special type of hardening for them.
We can be 100% sure that the Israel who is hardened in v25 is not the perverted definition of 'Israel' created by Replacement Theology...
Unless you would like that verse to teach that the elect New Covenant members are hardened until the fullness of the gentiles enter into the New Covenant... anyone reading that can perceive the absurdity of such a thing.
"You have forgotten this, haven't you...
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
Anyone reading Rom 9:6 has to ask, 'What does Paul mean by Israel?' He cannot have the same exact group in mind or he would be saying something stupid. If we say that both instances of Israel mean ethnic Israel, then the passage would read this way:
Not all ethnic Israelites are ethnic Israelites.
That is foolish and not what Paul means at all.
Another option is to say that Paul is referring to the Israel of God, or the remnant, which would be this:
Not all elect Jews are elect Jews.
That is also foolish and not what Paul is trying to say.
The proper understanding of this verse is:
Not all Israel (those merely born as Jewish people) are Israel (children of promise, elect members of the remnant, etc.)
Romans 9 teaches personal election. God has the right to choose the remnant to be vessels of glory and rebellious Jews to be vessels of wrath and who are we to say anything against Him?
This verse doesn't help your argument because as so clearly stated, Paul is defending a future for disobedient ethnic Israelites.
"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."
The word of God has not failed for two reasons:
1) God never said that He would save faithless people. Abraham is the father of all who are saved, and all who are saved are saved by faith.
2) God still has a future in store for ethnic Israel once the fullness of the gentiles come to faith.
That is what Paul argues for in chapter 11.
"Just what are the gifts and the calling of God that are irrevocable? Nationhood, Temple, etc?
...And unto whom are these gifts and calling of God - NATIONAL Israel, or the elect among the Jews?
Please tell us."
Paul answers you:
"They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises."
God promised Abraham:
"I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, --to be God to you and to your offspring after you.-- And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, --and I will be their God.--" - Gen 17:7-8
Currently, God is not God to ethnic Israel.
The bottom line is that God promises salvation to 'all' of ethnic Israel and that has not yet occurred. Paul reminds us that this is yet to come in Romans 11:25-26
The salvation of all Israel will take place after the fullness of the gentiles comes to faith. Simply stated, the future salvation of ethnic Israel and the return of Christ to rule on earth for 1000 years as prophesied in Rev 20 will satisfy all of the promises made specifically to ethnic Israel and the fact that Paul reminds us that they have a future because of these promises should be proof enough for anyone with an open mind to accept I think.
Sorry for so many words!
Sing F LauMr Kees, "The bottom line is that God promises salvation to 'all' of ethnic Israel and that has not yet occurred. Paul reminds us that this is yet to come in Romans 11:25-26"
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The bottom line is here: those under consideration in Romans 9-11 are these: the elect Jews among the national Israel, and not national Israel itself.
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Precisely, it was because God was going to abolished NATIONAL Israel in 70AD, that Apostle Paul had to write Romans 9-11, so that there is no misunderstanding as though God has cast away all the Jews.
There are God's elect among the Jews... and they are effectually called to grace and salvation - i.e justified, regenerated and adopted, and fitted for eternal glory... BUT yet, under God's divine providence, were BLINDED to the gospel.
ALL the Jews, by nature is exactly like any Gentiles... conceive in sins and born in sin... in enmity against God, children of disobedience, rebel, servants of sin... NO difference whatsoever. Outwardly, they were blessed with great privileges.
Among the Jews, there are also God's elect. Just because God has abandoned and cast away the nation of Israel, His gifts and the calling of God to the elect Jews are without repentance.
Please stay at this issue before we deal with so different things raised!
Sing F LauKees@ "This verse is plainly talking about God's faithfulness to the nation of ethnic Israelites."
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Nope. Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
Faithfulness to the elect among the ethnic Jews.
KeesMr. Lau, you are wrong. You say:
"The bottom line is here: those under consideration in Romans 9-11 are these: the elect Jews among the national Israel, and not national Israel itself."
If the elect Jews are in mind then who are those referred to in v25?
"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Are these elect Jews? Why are they hardened?
Sing F LauMr Kees, precisely, only the elect Jews are hardened towards the gospel! And that hardening is partial, i.e. did not happen to ALL the elect Jews.
In your mind, those Jews ALREADY in their native state of deadness in trespasses and sins STILL need to be hardened, the blind has to be blinded further!
I always said, God WASTES NO MOVES! Man does! And worse still, man portrays God as wasting moves!
A PARTIAL hardening has come upon the elect Jew... that is why only a remnant of the elect Jews believed the gospel of God Christ. (The 'remnant' and the larger part of which the remnant is part of ARE of the same essence... i.e. the elect Jews are spoken of!)
"Are these elect Jews? Why are they hardened?"
Good questions. Do you want the answers? Or are they rhetorical questions?
Verse 25 speak of a mystery...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
These 3 verses explains the mystery:
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Do those dead in trespasses and sin need to be actively SHUT up in unbelief? Or is it speaking of SOME of God's children among the Jews?
According to v25, either I am ignorant, or you are concerning the issue at hand.
Sing F LauAriyeh@ Mr. Sing, may I ask you where you learned your theology? I am a Jew who believes yeshua is the Messiah and I am interested in what makes Gentiles tick?
Apaarently, you have removed the Jehudim from any and all existence. No one just ...believes this. Who taught you this? Are you Reformed Baptist?
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If where I learned my theology from matters in the discussion, let me answer you question... from a Jewish scholar in Armenian [sic] Street in Penang, where I live. I am a Chinese, therefore a brown Jew of the east.
What makes Gentiles among the elect tick is the grace of God in Jesus Christ applied to the by the Holy Spirit. Nothing attributed to the ethnic Jews whatsoever... except the Jewishness of my Savior.
The Jewish race is still around. Among the Jews there are God's elect... and there is difference between them and the elect Gentiles. So, I recognize the existence of the Jewish race, and that there are elect among them.
No one just believes this? That's a ignorant statement at best!
No, I am not reformed baptist! Reformed Baptists call me a heretic... not for the issue at hand, but for the doctrine of pure grace.
KeesMr. Lau, you are saying two different things:
"Precisely, --only the elect Jews are hardened-- towards the gospel! And that hardening is partial, i.e. --did not happen to ALL the elect Jews.--"
This makes no sense to me. Only the elect Jews are hardened? And then you say that the same hardening does -not- happen to ALL the elect Jews...
That is a contradiction.
Currently, the Jews collectively make up a group of nationally elect people, some of which are hardened to the gospel and some of which are a part of the remnant and are elect unto salvation.
As a group, the nation of ethnic Jews are hardened to the gospel. That hardening is both partial because not every single Jew rejects the Messiah and also temporary, until the fullness of the gentiles come to faith.
As regards the gospel, national-ethnic Israel are enemies of God for the sake of the Gentiles but as regards election (God chose them to be an elect people as a whole) they are BELOVED (a term for God's elect) for the sake of their forefathers according to the flesh... Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And why?
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." - Romans 11:29
What about that is not easy to understand?
I agree with Paul:
"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"
Mr Lau, you are trying to call God's judgment into question I think.
Who are you to tell the Potter what He can do with His people the Jews?
GreenMr. Kees, I think that you fail to understand the the biblical definitions of election, regeneration and conversion. If these terms are not clearly understood, then you will nver be able to understand Jer 31 or Romans 9-11 in its proper co...ntext.
Eternal election occurred before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). Man had no part in this whatsoever! It is true that national/ethnic Israel was chosen to be blessed and favored by God, but this ended in 70 A.D. This is distinct from eternal election.
Regeneration/quickening is also wholly of God (Tit 3:5.Eph 2:1, Col 2:13-15) and is distinct from conversion (Luke 22:32, Acts 28:27).
Paul defines the Jews that he was concerned with in Rom 2:29. Those that were Jews inwardly (regenerated elect). What was his desire? That they might be saved (Romans 10:1). From what? Ignorance. They had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge (v.2). Who manifests a zeal of God? The regenerated elect. Do they all obey the gospel? No. Paul labored to convert these that were a part of national/ethnic Israel.
They were saved eternally, but missed out on the timely blessing of walking in the light of truth in this world. This is why Paul sorrowed.
If these foundational truths are not understood, then the rest of the building is going to be askew.
In Christian Love,
Michael
Sing F LauWell said, Mr Green.
Mr Kees, I can understand what you are saying from your presupposition that Apostle Paul is addressing the national Israel in Romans 9-11. But that idea contradicts and is inconsistent with all that is said there!
I be...lieve that presupposition flies in the face of the plain statement of Paul at the beginning of the section:
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
You insist that Apostle is addressing national Israel... that militates against the very statement in Romans 9:6.
I believe he is addressing the MYSTERIOUS phenomenon of the children of God (regenerated elect) among the Jews who were unbelieving. Of course such a thing is an impossibility to your mind... precisely, apostle didn't want us to be ignorant of this matter... that that is what had happened.
So, with this fundamental difference - your national Israel idea, and my elect Israel understanding, we are on parallel road on this subject.
National Israel? Done and abolished forever in 70AD. And together with the abolition of national Israel was the whole old covenant that was inextricately bound up with that nation!
MingPaul was addressing his own ethnic people (the Jews) who, for the sake of the cross, became "enemies" of God. Yet out of these "enemies" of God/Christ, He has yet chosen a remnant who shall bear His Name and be in His Salvation Plan.
There is no need to even bring up any extreme positions such as Replacement Theology (which I reject 100%) nor argue over the differences between ethnic Israel vs. national Israel or the spiritual/national significance of AD70.
The real point in Rom. 9-11 is the incomprehensible mystery of God's sovereign grace in that even those closest to God and entrusted with His divine oracles could turn away (after the flesh) and yet even from their midst God has preserved for His own Name a remnant.
The Christian life truly is supernatural and unceasingly marvelous. It is also very, very mysterious - and only the elect can catch a glimpse of the glory therein. Praise God for Jewish brethren who have come to know Yeshua the Messiah. I have several very dear Christian friends who are Jews. Their experiences and devotion are on a very special and intimate level compared to us common Gentiles. I speak in terms of ethnic/racial identity - as a Chinese Christian (like Brother Sing), I often have to overcome cultural/linguistic barriers to understand many spiritual principles/terms. Not so our Jewish brethren. For that, we should abound in praise to our God - who is STILL God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; God of both Jews and Gentiles.
The salvation of Jewish Christians should not be a point of contention but an occasion for celebration and thanksgiving. Amen.
KeesMr Green, you levy weighty criticisms...
"It is true that national/ethnic Israel was chosen to be blessed and favored by God, but this ended in 70 A.D. This is distinct from eternal election. "
...
So you would make God and Paul a liar by saying that God has indeed forsaken His people and has failed to keep His promises.
They were elect, and now they aren't.
The God you speak of is not trustworthy my friend. If your god cancels election for the Jews, he is not trustworthy and therefore he is not the God of Scripture. I pray that your theology is just ignorantly inconsistent and that you are not willfully making God a liar.
Paul's point is exactly the opposite of your conclusions: God is indeed faithful to His people, that is the thrust of the argument.
PS: Your assertion was an opinion regarding 70 AD, you failed to present a Biblical basis for it and I presume that you cannot do so. Feel free, if able.
KeesMr. Lau,
"I believe that presupposition flies in the face of the plain statement of Paul at the beginning of the section: Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
You are simply wrong my friend, as I have already pointed out.
Romans 9:6 is simply saying that not all who are descendants of Abraham physically have Abraham as their father in terms of faith. Abraham fathered a physical nation and is also the father of all the faithful children of promise.
"I believe he is addressing the MYSTERIOUS phenomenon of the children of God (regenerated elect) among the Jews who were unbelieving. Of course such a thing is an impossibility to your mind... "
You are free to believe whatever you want Mr. Lau, but Paul does not mean this.
He explains the mystery so that we aren't left to be ignorant. You desire that these things be left a mystery when Paul has explained them plainly.
"National Israel? Done and abolished forever in 70AD."
Again, you are free to believe whatever you want, but Scripture doesn't teach this and you haven't produced a single Scripture to make your case. Neither has Mr. Green...
There are assertions based upon what you both have read into the Scriptures and I urge you to reconsider for the sake of Truth and the faithfulness of God.
Kees
Edmund, nice to meet you. You said:
"The real point in Rom. 9-11 is the incomprehensible mystery of God's sovereign grace in that even those closest to God and entrusted with His divine oracles could turn away (after the flesh) and yet even from their midst God has preserved for His own Name a remnant."
Why then does Paul end on the note that all of national-ethnic Israel has a future that will take place after the fullness of the gentiles come to faith?
"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written..." Romans 11:25-26
The mystery has been revealed, and we must comprehend it lest we be wise in our own sight.
The point of Romans 9-11 is that God is sovereign and His electing purposes are not to be questioned by us. Men who reject a future for national-ethnic Israel calls the faithfulness of God's electing grace into question and make Him liar:
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29
The New Covenant promises were made to Israel, not the Gentiles.
We are grafted into the promises made to them on the basis of faith in Christ... Our union with Christ makes us heirs with Him to the promises of God.
GreenMr. Kees what are your thoughts on Romans 2:29? I believe that Paul establishes the definition of which Jews he was concerned about.
Hope all had a good day of worship!
MingI was really hoping that my previous post had put an end to all these "your theology is defective" and "where is your biblical basis for AD70"-styled arguments.
Rom. 9-11 remains one of the most beautiful sections of Scripture. To me, it is ...among the ultimate expressions of the mature Christian Paul. The Saul of Tarsus who worked to gain the approval of the Jewish leaders has grown into the Christian apostle who struggled with the Jewish persecutors (of whom he was one formerly) and later with Judaizers within the church who made life difficult for everyone. But by the time he wrote the Epistle to the Romans, he has largely reconciled his own thoughts/feelings for his people, the Jews.
Paul's concerns were largely theological and not so much national. He had come a long way since placing his faith in the entirety of the temple-centric Jewish faith as the means by which Yahweh receives them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the Pharisee Saul knew little of "individual salvation" and his concerns were chiefly that of "national salvation". In other words, one had to be a Jew (or at least a proselyte to Judaism) to even stand a chance - then one had to be faithful to the law and center one's devotion on the Temple and the nationalistic hopes (outwardly seen in both the dietary/cultic observances and a nationalistic/patriotic/triumphalistic faith in a militant Messiah to free them from foreign powers). In other words, to Saul, it was an all-or-nothing thing. You either took the entirety of Judaism (including its nationalistic/ethnic/cultic/patriotic/messianic and chiefly temple-centric beliefs) or nothing.
Then came Stephen and the sect that he belonged to. Stephen was the biggest threat to Saul's all-or-nothing temple-centric national/ethnic-interest Judaism. Stephen preached that the entire nation/religion of Judaism was wrong because they opposed the Christ that God sent and even crucified Him. Saul, as others around him, heard of this same Christ's proclamation of the temple's destruction - meaning the destruction of everything that Saul had ever believed in (namely, the temple-centric nationalistic/ethnic salvation stuff above). Naturally, Saul threw in with those who opposed the troublemaker Stephen and joined them in stoning the latter.
On the Road to Damascus, Saul was confronted by the Resurrected Christ. Note that he had no doubts whatsoever that the One who appeared to him is the LORD - the God of Israel. His biggest question was simply this - who was right? Temple/National-centric Judaism or the Sect that Stephen belonged to? Christ then asked him - "Why do you persecute me?" Saul was dumbfounded? When had he ever persecuted the God of Israel? But Christ revealed to him that whatever Saul did to any of his little ones (including Stephen and those whom he had received papers to arrest) he did so also to Christ Himself. In other words, it was not with temple-centric, nationalistic/ethnic Judaism that Christ identified with but with the motley bunch of folks who had faith in the Christ. With Stephen's sect, the God of Israel was so intimately united/linked that whatsoever one does towards that sect, one directly did to Him. Christ was using language that Saul was familiar with as Yahweh in the OT proclaimed that Israel was the apple of His eye and whoever touches Israel will be destroyed.
That was a moment of crisis in Saul's life that he never recovered from. Stephen's sect is now the apple of God's eye? Then what about Israel (national/ethnic)? What about the temple? What about the ritualistic observances? What about the earthly triumph and victory of "God's people" or are they even "God's people" any more? Can God break His promise to the patriarchs and to David? Can such a thought even be possible?
KeesMr. Green, "What are your thoughts on Romans 2:29? I believe that Paul establishes the definition of which Jews he was concerned about. "
If those are the only Jews in mind, why does the very next verse speak of Israel collectively?
"Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar..." Romans 3:1-4
Paul is speaking here of Jews collectively as he often does.
Romans 2:29 is a parallel of Romans 9:6 and means the same thing.
Not all physical Jews are circumcised of heart.
Hope that helps.
MingSometimes it takes physical blindness to reveal true spiritual sight. I personally believe that those questions haunted Saul during his days in blindness after his critical encounter on the Damascus Road.
Then, a small and fearful believer n...amed Ananias was sent to pray for "Brother Saul". Ananias was reluctant - after all, Saul still had the papers for his arrest! But Ananias went anyway. He prayed for Saul and called him "Brother". Saul was no longer simply a nationalistic/ethnic Jew - he had become a "Brother". Not Saul, the student of Gamaliel who was being groomed for a seat in the Sanhedrin. Not Venerable Saul of Tarsus. Not Professor Saul of Tarsus. But simply "Brother Saul".
For the first time, this man who was the epitome of Israelite glory as well as Israelite myopic vision (they could never see beyond national/ethnic interests despite John the Baptist's words that God could raise up Sons of Abraham from the stones in the desert) - this same man believed that it really isn't very important anymore - all these talks about national/ethnic Israel but simply whether one belonged to Christ or not. Those who do are "Brothers" like he is now - "Brother Saul". The embrace of Ananias was the embrace of Christ Himself. The handshake of Barnabas was the handshake of Yahweh Himself. The acceptance of Peter, James and John was the acceptance of the One who parted the Red Sea and made a distinction between the Hebrew children and the armies of Pharaoh.
But another question prevailed in Saul's mind - what about my people? What about others like me who held on to temple-centric, nationalistic/ethnic Judaism? Here, Saul's mind re-applied the all-or-nothing reasoning. If Stephen and Ananias were all accepted on the basis of God's grace in which they simply received/relied upon by faith (without any of the temple centric stuff), then that must be the fulfilment of ALL of God's promises to create descendents of Abraham by faith so that Abraham could become the Father of Faith.
The early exploits of the Apostle Paul could be seen in his conflicts with the Judaizers who attempted to add to the final and complete work of Christ. Hence, the great epistle to the Galatians that we still possess today. Paul applied his all-or-nothing principle and now rejected what he formerly held so dear.
KeesMing, the reason that Paul contemplated the status of national-ethnic Israel is because he understood that God was faithful, had made promises to them, and had yet to fulfill them.
The glorious faithfulness of God towards national-ethnic Is...rael magnifies the grace and trustworthiness of God so much!
Despite their failures, His promises to them remain on the basis of His election.
We have the same hope! We fail every day and even so God will not cast us away. His electing purposes are unquestionable and absolute.
We fail like Israel has failed, and He does not cast us away and He will not cast them away either... Why? "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." - Romans 11:29
And praise God that the aren't revocable!
The problem with second temple Judaism is also explained by Paul:
"What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works." - Romans 9:30-32
Paul bought into the failure of works-righteousness, and repudiates his Jewish works-righteous pedigree. It was rubbish when relied upon to save...
We must be found with a righteousness not of our own, and the Jews sought to establish their own and because of it they failed.
The 70 AD stuff is really dangerous because the 'facts' are not rooted in Scripture.
MingBut that was Galatians.
In Romans, we have a more reflective Paul. We have a Paul who reflected on his own struggles in the flesh (Rom. 7) and a celebration of triumph in the Spirit (Rom. 8). We have Paul raising the banner of salvific grace... higher than ever before and boldly proclaiming that "where sin abounds, grace super-abounds" so that His grace is greater than my sin - all of it and not just in part.
Finally, we have Paul returning to the most deeply affecting question again - what of the Jews? (Rom. 9-11)
But this time, Paul wasn't writing as one who still embraced temple-centric or nationalistic/ethnic Judaism. He had long transcended all that and left all that behind him. Paul wasn't even writing as the opponent of Judaizers who conspired to corrupt the simple Christian faith. He had already done that in his epistle to the Galatians.
Paul was writing as an older man who had a deep concern for people who meant a lot to him. His countrymen, the folks that he grew up with. The boy he went to school with, the girl he had a crush on when he was a teenager, the kindly auntie next door who once bought him lunch and the kindly uncle he used to go out farming with. These folks all (like he used to) believed and held on to the promises of Yahweh to their ancestors. They were taught to go up to the Temple in Jerusalem once a year. They memorised the Torah and the teachings of the elders. They were good people.
But in his all-or-nothing doctrine, have they now been excluded from the glorious covenant that he has devoted his life to preaching?
My brothers, do you see the teary-eyed apostle penning those words in Romans 9-11? If you do, you will not engage in meaningless theological squabbles but you will say with Paul that this gospel of Christ means that we are debtors to both Jew and Greek - to make known to them the surpassing greatness of God's power unto salvation which is in Christ.
Every Christian is precious to Paul - but even more so, every JEWISH Christian is especially precious to Paul. Yes, he was the Apostle to the Gentiles. But every time he comes into contact with a JEWISH Christian, he is comforted within himself that salvation is still with the Jews and that God has not forsaken His people. All the promises are still valid and that mysterious will of God still dictates that even though the Jews in their ignorant zeal have become enemies of God, still God is preserving a remnant from among them.
Rom. 9-11 began with the heartbreaking sorrow of Paul for his countrymen - so real and acute was his sorrow that Paul actually called upon the HOLY SPIRIT to bear witness to the depths of his sorrow! But it ends with a triumphant confidence in the unsearcheable wisdom of God in saving his own countrymen.
Those are God's promises - don't you think that they matter more to Him than to us?
Israel was God's chosen people - don't you think that they matter more to Him than to us?
Paul had no easy answers but his confidence rest in the All-Wise God who will do no wrong.
We water down that confidence with our own systems of thought - e.g. Replacement Theology that proclaims the Church as the New Israel or talks of God restoring nationalistic Israel (as Dennis so loudly proclaims).
I sometimes suspect that we'll learn more from the tears of Paul than from any pretentious theological/critical/academical reading of Paul.
Kees1) It's the same Paul
2) We don't know what Paul feels, we know what he says...
3) Systems with large titles are often useless.
4) National-ethnic Israel has a future unless Scripture is not true. Romans 11 clearly teaches it!
I have no ambition to make the text say something that isn't there. You are appealing to the unknown emotions of the apostle, not I... I am simply telling you what he wrote.
MingKees, Believe me when I tell you that I agree with you more than I disagree. I have HUGE problems with the Reformed Baptists and many who hold to extreme Covenantal Theology and Replacement Theology views. In fact, I am in serious disagreement with Preterists and their AD70-centric teachings.
What I've been saying is that we should weep for Israel (like Paul did) and hold unto the fact that it is God's promises and therefore the All-Wise God who will do no wrong knows what to do with what He has promised.
Do I believe that the Church has replaced Israel? No. I believe that Gentiles are grafted into the branch and that Israel is still therefore the only people of God. We who were not Jews have been made Jews in Christ. We who were not a people have been made part of the Jewish Commonwealth upon which God's favour rests.
Do I believe in Zionist attempts to restore Nationalistic Israel? No. In fact, I oppose the State of Israel and the Zionist Regime with my every breath. Our hearts should go out to the Jewish people and pray for the peace in the Holy Land. But Christians should NEVER be so gullible as to equate modern day political Israel with the Israel of the Bible upon whom the promises of God still rests (because of His love for the patriarchs)
Yes, it is dangerous to read too much into AD70. It is equally dangerous to proclaim constantly of nationalistic Jews - especially in view of how easy it is to be misunderstood these days.
KeesWe should share the love that Paul had for the Jews as well as his detestation of their works-righteous teachings...
At the same time, we must realize that national-ethnic Israel has a future on the basis of Scripture.
Remember that Abraham ...was a Jew, but not an Israelite.
MingI never made any pretensions claiming that my "dramatizations" of the Apostle's unknown emotions were to be taken as the be-all and end-all "sola scriptura". Hahahaha. How silly can you be, anyway? Or to put it in another way - WHY SOOOOOOOOO SERIOUS?
Firstly, Paul wrote a LETTER - not a theological tome - although I suspect that folks today prefer that he had written that. Thank God that the Scriptures came to us in such personal ways as letters, psalms, proverbs and poetry. To suggest divorcing emotions from reading such literature is the height of silliness but the "serious-minded" among us are somewhat addicted to such silliness.
Second, Paul expressly mentions his emotions and even called upon the HOLY SPIRIT to bear witness to his spirit. To attempt to read the words while caring little for the writer is again another example of silliness in our "serious-minded" age.
Sing F LauMr Keesee@ The 70 AD stuff is really dangerous because the 'facts' are not rooted in Scripture.
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You have missed all those "the end" passages in the parables of Jesus Christ to the Jews, I fear!
But then again, you will insist that those ...passages speaks of the end of the gentile world we live in, and not national Israel!
The disciples were acutely aware of impending end of their world - national Israel, when they inquired, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Of course many FOOLISHLY think the disciples were inquiring about the end of the world we live in!
All the way through Mt 24 and right up to Mt 25:30, Christ was speaking of the predestined end and cessation of NATIONAL Israel.
Apostle Peter repeated that in his epistle to Jewish believers... because many Jews were mocking at the promised destruction!
Ming's words is sadly true, "Sometimes it takes physical blindness to reveal true spiritual sight."
MingForgive me that piece of ranting above.
Seriously, I was in church yesterday morning. The pastor preached on Israel. He too talked about a nationalistic future for Israel and that the Middle East is still the stage on where a lot of things a...re scheduled in God's plan to take place.
I do not disagree. I just do not think that the whole "Jewish" issue should even be a serious issue of contention. What I mean is that we should weep more than we argue. And we should also celebrate because we call upon a God who is all wise and who can do no wrong.
MingLike I said, Kees, I really disagree more with Brother Sing than I do with you.
I disagree with his interpretation of Matt 24-25 as referring to AD70 - I too believe that it refers to the end of the Gentile age.
But then the Christian life ...is not about "taking this position or that position". Hence, if you reread my entries above, I was trying to avoid precisely that kind of stance by trying to "guess at" what the Apostle was writing about in Rom. 9-11.
MingBoth Paul and Peter were martyred before AD70. I sometimes wonder what they will write should they have been around post AD70.
My "guesses" (again) are that:
(a) they would not write as Josephus did with all that nationalistic apologetics - they have entered the real Mount Zion after all and realised that the Kingdom of the Messiah far transcends this earthly world.
(b) they would not write as many Christians did in their presumption that AD70 is the pivotal point of prophecy-fulfilment and that Christ's parables decisively point to this event alone - the Kingdom prophecies are far richer in content, far more wide-ranging in scope and far more penetrating in depth than the simple Preterist/Covenantal view.
(c) more likely they will weep and pray rather than argue about the theological significance of the AD70 event.
Sinner Saved- Could You Please Explain Romans 11:25-26?
This passage, Romans 11:25-26, has been more widely misunderstood than almost any other passage in the Bible. In fact, it is amazing to me that so many Bible teachers try to make Romans 11:25-26 say just the opposite of what it says.
This is terrible because they are saying, “Thus saith the Lord,” when the Lord has not said that.
The setting of Romans Chapter 11 is that God is explaining that most of the people in the nation of Israel were blinded, but there is a remnant, chosen by grace, who have become saved. Paul used himself as an example of those who have become saved. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, says in verse 5:
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Then he says in verse 7:
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
Spiritual blindness was the condition of national Israel throughout its history and is still the condition right up to the present day. They absolutely do not want the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. They do not want Him as their Messiah. In verse 25, God begins to bring the first 24 verses of this chapter to conclusion. It is addressed to the Gentile world so that we will have an understanding of how national Israel fit into God’s salvation plan.
God says in Romans 11:25:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel [verse 7 says it happened to most of national Israel], until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
“Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” means that national Israel will continue to be spiritually blind, except for a remnant chosen by grace, as long as there is one Gentile, or non-Jew, anywhere in the world, who is still to be saved. In our generation, Israel has been a nation for over 50 years, and they are as adamant about their opposition to Christ as the Messiah as they were at any time in their history.There has been no change, and there will be no change. God says that their condition will remain the same until the last person who is of the elect of God becomes saved. When the last Gentile has become saved, it will be the end of the world. The world will continue to its predetermined end, but before the world can end, all those who have been elected to salvation will have become saved.
Then we read in the first part of Romans 11:26:
"And so all Israel shall be saved. . . "
All kinds of Bible teachers do terrible violence to this verse. They understand this verse to say, “And then all Israel shall be saved.” In other words, they change the word “so” to “then.”
They teach that after the Gentiles have been saved, God is going to do a work in national Israel.First of all, that does not make any sense because national Israel, that is, the blood descendants of Abraham, have been on earth for 4,000 years.
What about all the Jews who lived and died unsaved during the past 4,000 years?
They are part of national Israel. They are not going to be resurrected and have a second opportunity. More than that, the word “so” does not mean “then.” “So” is not a chronological word. “So” means “in this manner,” or “thus,” or “in this way.”In what way?
In what manner?
In the manner in which God describes in Romans Chapter 11, namely, that most of national Israel is blinded, but there is a remnant chosen by grace. In this manner, all Israel that is to be saved, shall be saved. This is not talking, in any sense, about a future change in God’s plan. It simply ties back into everything that has gone before, as God has reported in the previous 25 verses. God explains why His salvation can come to the remnant of national
Israel that is chosen by grace.
He says in the second part of Romans 11:26-27:
". . . as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
When Christ came and took on a human nature, to whom did He come?
He came to the Jews. He was born in Bethlehem, a Jewish city. He was reared in Nazareth, a Jewish city. He was crucified in Jerusalem, a Jewish city. For three and half years, He ministered mainly around the Sea of Galilee, a Jewish area. He came to the nation of Israel, and a remnant of national Israel was chosen by grace. Later, He told the disciples that they were to go into all the world with the Gospel because salvation was to come to Gentiles as well. These verses are easy to understand if we read them carefully.
We cannot superimpose something we have been taught upon these verses. God does not have a future plan for national Israel; that idea is not found anywhere in the Bible. The Bible indicates that we are in the last days; we are headed right toward the end of time. When the last Gentile has become saved, that will be the end of the Gospel era. It will be the end of the world.
KeesChris, "Spiritual blindness was the condition of national Israel throughout its history and is still the condition right up to the present day."
Not at all. National-ethnic Israel has had times of obedience and times of disobedience. Your statement is just factually wrong. Are you really saying that Israel was never obedient in the Old Testament as a whole?
I presume you would not say that, but please let us know.
"Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” means that national Israel will continue to be spiritually blind, except for a remnant chosen by grace, as long as there is one Gentile, or non-Jew, anywhere in the world, who is still to be saved."
That is your opinion, not what Scripture teaches.
Your interpretation makes v28-32 ignorant and meaningless.
"As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."
Please explain these passages in light of your opinion.
Thanks.
Sing F LauMr Kees,
" 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded the...m all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
May I suggest that the ALL in the above passage can ONLY refer to the elect among the Jews and the Gentiles...
These are those that God hath concluded in unbelief.
Natural Jews and Gentiles are ALREADY dead enough in trespasses and sins... they don't need to be concluded in unbelief. That is quite simple, I think.
All these will obtain mercy, NEVERTHELESS, DESPITE their unbelief. Some of God's children have been concluded in unbelief. This is contrary to carnal reasoning... but it is true, so apostle make great effort to explain it
One is... two are... This is basic. 
