Dazzling wild ginger flower!
Taylor
The word 'foreknew' (ESV) in Romans 8:29 is a verb. A verb expresses action. Therefore, this word cannot possibly be referring to omniscience. When it says 'Those He foreknew' it is stating an action done by God. God is making a choice to foreknow people. It is not a reflection of God's perfect prescience. (As in: God knows infallibly who will choose Him) The word is relational, not predictive.Taylor
These two verses, Romans 8:29-30, I do believe a person could write a 20 page essay about, just showing all the errors with the 'advance prescience' view. That view literally makes a mess out of the entire passage.
Plotner
It also helps to point out that there are two drawings. They like to go to the one where Christ says "I will draw ALL MEN unto me" but they ignore that in John 6:44 it is the Father doing the drawing. One is the general call of the gospel and the other is the effectual call unto salvation. This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, I hope you didn't MISS one of the most important observation in Rom 8:29-30:
Every free grace divine action applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT, in absolutely equal and same extent. No exception.
Therefore, any idea of salvation that does not fit this plain declaration is deficient and erroneous at best, at worst it is a damnable heresy!
Sing F Lau
Ross@ This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified.
====
In the context of the parable in Mt 22, what does 'many' refer to, and what does 'few' refer to?
Many are called to what? What is the calling here?
Few are chosen to what? What is the choosing here?
I am asking to learn. Thanks.
Plotner
Many is the general call that goes out to all and few are the elect. In Romans 8:29-30 the call is only to the elect. The general call is Christ drawing all men unto Him and the one in Rom. 8 is the drawing of the Father in John 6.
Berge
Amen on your post Andrew
Taylor
The Arminian interpretation of Romans 8:29-30 contradicts the actual text there too. Specifically, look at 'those He called He also justified.' The Arminian is forced to concede that he cannot explain this phrase, because God had to call all sorts of other people too (who rejected by free will) that weren't justified. The Arminian also has to claim that there are some that were called and were justified, but then lost their salvation and ceased to be justified.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, the new school calvinists ARE EQUALLY MESSED UP with the Romans 8:29-30 passage!
Taylor
Please explain Sing...
Plotner
Andrew there are two callings. "Many are called but few are chosen."
Taylor
yes, the famous Matthew 22 parable. Ask yourself the question though: WHO is doing the calling in Matthew 22? Is it the call of God inwardly? Or is it the proclamation of the Gospel outwardly, done by God's servants?
Matthew 22:2-3 (ESV): "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, 3*and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.*
WHO does the Gospel call come from?
Plotner
Yes, it is different than the call of Rom. 8 obviously. That's my point.
Taylor
The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. the inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, put on safety harness. New school calvinists are MESSED UP big time in their understanding of Romans 8:29-30.
If you are really interested read the 'article' here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/08/calvinists-are-confused-as-well-as.html
I PASTE below a section of it.
My advice: read and understand first before you start wasting your missiles
=====
"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
With this Roman 8 passage also, the Calvinists are confused and obtuse! Why? They insisted that the justification spoken of here is none other justification by faith! This is simply not possible, not true. Why?
Note first of all that the justification spoken of here APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE ELECT, every one predestinated unto eternal life. This passage speaks of that which is true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT, and that WHICH EQUALLY true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT.
The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD.
Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.
Why is regeneration not mentioned? Quite simple: application of the righteousness of life in justification necessarily include the impartation of eternal life based on the righteousness of life applied personally. Justification is the justification of life!
"17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE."
Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. Why? Because not every child of will experience these temporal things.
And those who have, they experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!
Despite these OBVIOUS facts, the Calvinists continue to insist that the passage speaks of justification by their faith!
Sing F Lau
Let's continue with the third reason: In the first paragraph on justification (chapter 11), it is ALREADY declared, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..."
=====
Not finished with these few words yet! Didn't you read what it declares, "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely JUSTIFIETH..."
It DOES NOT read, ""Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely REGENERATES..." What does this mean? It means these:
Justification APPLIED freely by God's grace PRECEDES regeneration.
Justification EXPERIENCED by man's faith FOLLOWS regeneration.
The Calvinists are not only ignorant of the distinction between the two, they also confuse the latter for the former, and they are too obtuse to note their obvious error!
The first act of effectually calling a man out of his state sin and death is justification. Condemnation of death must be dealt with. Righteousness necessary for the justification of life must be APPLIED to an elect personally. [Righteousness of Christ was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all elect when Christ died on the cross. EVEN SO, the sin of Adam was already LEGALLY IMPUTED to all represented by him. But what was LEGALLY IMPUTED must now be APPLIED PERSONALLY].
Justification by God the Father through the righteousness of God the Son must be applied to an elect FIRST, BEFORE God the Spirit has divine warrant to regenerate him.
Regenerating a condemned man (i.e. in his unjustified state) is as immoral as setting free a condemned criminal that has not been acquitted and pardon by the court.
Logically, the Spirit of God regenerates those whom the Father has APPLIED the righteousness of life personally. The application of the righteousness of life to a man must necessarily precede the bestowal of life to him.
Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration.
This is so obvious from the Scriptures, as summarized in the 1689 BCF.
=====
Taylor
"Yes, it is different than the call of Rom. 8 obviously. That's my point."
But your point doesn't follow that the atonement has to be unlimited because of that. The outward proclamation of the Gospel has to do with us being obedient, not God inwardly calling. God will regenerate people to believe of course, but the outward Gospel call is from us. How can a call from US effect Christ's work?
Plotner
I think you're mixing discussions. ????
Sing F Lau
Andrew@Taylor The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. the inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God.
======
So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God? Hmmm?
So divine 'choosing' is conditioned upon the gospel call issued by preachers? I am just inquiring!
May I inquire, chosen from what, and to what? Fair question.
Please remember, the parable is about some facts about the kingdom of heaven. "The kingdom of heaven is like unto..."
Let us keep studying...
Taylor
Sing, I read it (quickly). Explain this then:
"Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified."
Good point...I agree.
"Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY PRECEDES regeneration."
What does 'those He called' refer to? Calling LOGICALLY precedes justification in this scripture, does it not?
Are you saying this?
1) Justification
2) Called
3) Regeneration
"Justification APPLIED freely by God's grace PRECEDES regeneration."
Correct me if I am wrong here Sing, but all the words in these verses are past tense...wouldn't by this logic, GLORIFICATION have to precede regeneration as well?
Taylor
"So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
Oh goodness no Sing...I'm not saying that at all.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, read it again REAL SLOWLY this time. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Andrew: "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
Oh goodness no Sing...I'm not saying that at all.
========
The declaration is, "many are called but few are chosen."
The declaration is clearly indicates an order of some sort ...the calling (whatever it is) logically/ chronologically preceding the choosing (whatever it is).
You have said, "The outward Gospel call comes from US Ali...it is a proclamation. The inward call, the *chosen* part of that comes from God."
Based the the statement, I inquired, "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
You say the call is the gospel call issued by human preachers... and the choosing comes from God.
Thus my inquiry: "So gospel call by human PRECEDES the choice by God?"
So, if you are not saying that, you have expressed very poorly. Now, tell us exactly what you meant by those words.
Plotner
Sing, the verse is not a chronological list of events. It's just a statement that not all the called are the chosen. The gospel goes out to all but only the elect believe unto salvation.
Sing F Lau
Ross, so please tell us what is the order of the 'call' and 'chosen'? There are two distinct things said... 'called' and 'chosen'.
If they are not simultaneous, tell us which is prior, and whether logically and or chronologically?
You have introduced a FOREIGN idea - 'the gospel goes out to ALL.' 'ALL' is very different from what the text says - 'many' and 'few'!
You have introduced another FOREIGN idea - 'elect believe unto salvation'. Are you equating that to 'few are chosen' to believe unto salvation? I am just asking.
Sing F Lau
Ross@ "It also helps to point out that there are two drawings. They like to go to the one where Christ says "I will draw ALL MEN unto me" but they ignore that in John 6:44 it is the Father doing the drawing. One is the general call of the g...ospel and the other is the effectual call unto salvation. This corresponds with "many are called but few are chosen" and the called ones in Romans 8 who end up glorified."
===========
Let's return to the context where the statement is used, "many are called but few are chosen."
What does Christ mean when He said "I will draw ALL MEN to me"? Who are the "ALL MEN"? What does Christ do when He HIMSELF draw "all men" to Him?
John 6:44 also speaks of the Father drawing? What is this drawing?
Are these two different and distinct drawings? Ross assumes that they are. I fear that's a big mistake!
New birth or regeneration is attributed to all the three person of the Trinity... but we don't say they are different births.
But here we say they are different callings - one general and the other effectual?
Are we saying that Christ's call of all men is general, outward and not so effectual, but the Father's is specific, inward and effectual?
I suggest both drawings are related to effectual call of the elect out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... the same call mentioned in Rom 8:30.
The drawing of Christ unto eternal life is NOT NOT NOT the same as the gospel drawing to conversion to the truth.
Just some thoughts. We still have to work out the meaning of 'many are called but few are chosen'.
Plotner
The choosing happens at foreknowledge. The calling comes sometime after birth. Your logic re the calling is faulty. In Rom. 8, all of the called end up glorified. In the other call, FEW ARE CHOSEN among the many who are called. I don't see ...how it could be any clearer. I assume by "gospel drawing to conversion to the truth" you mean the salvation of the elect. Look at the parable of the sower. The very same seed is sown among the various soils but only proves fruitful in the good soil. We know that the seed is the gospel. People who receive the gospel are those who have been born again by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. BTW, the Holy Spirit is the active agent in new birth so your three new birth analogy is faulty logic as well. While the trinity enters into all acts of God, there is one person of the Godhead doing the action. The Father and the Holy Spirit didn't die on the cross for example.
Sing F Lau
It is getting a little complicated... because you don't seem to get what I am trying to show - that if the calling and and choosing is not restricted to the context of the parable, then it is just plainly OUT OF CONTEXT. So, if 'chosen' is ...equated with 'choosing before foreknowledge' then it is plainly wrong! And if calling is related to gospel calling to eternal salvation it is also plainly wrong. The parable is not about getting into the kingdom of God. The parable informs us something about the kingdom of heaven - though many are called to enjoy its blessings, yet only few are chosen to enjoy it.
At least you are acknowledging a logical and chronological between 'choosing' and 'calling'.
Perhaps if I say this, it will make much sense to you. The parable of the kingdom of heaven is dealing SPECIFICALLY with God's children among the Jews. The kingdom of heaven is a term used specifically to contrast with the earthly theocratic kingdom that God's children among the Jews are so familiar with. They are called to leave it, and to enter the kingdom of heaven... leave to old covenant kingdom into the new covenant kingdom.
That 's the context of the 'many are called but few are chosen.'
Many of them are called by the gospel, but only few of them were chosen to enjoy the blessings of the gospel.
Many of God's children among the Jews are called by the gospel. (NOT ALL of them are called by the gospel call.) Though many of them are called by the gospel call, yet only few were chosen to believe and experience the blessings of the gospel.
Many of God's children among the Jews were blinded... only a remnant of God's children among the Jews were chosen to believe the gospel.
Read Romans 11...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Plotner
So, are you saying that all of the called in the parable are elect and that the chosen are those among them who actually believe the gospel?
Taylor
I don't think he is saying that Ross.
@Sing. By the way...I think 'justified' in Rom 8:29-30 can be justification by faith once you look at other verses that talk about this. Romans 5:1 for instance, 'Since we have been justified by faith...(ESV)' The word 'justfied' is in the Aorist tense and passive voice in the Greek, indicating it is a one time act done by an outside source other than the recipient of the faith. Obviously, the outside source is God. But I know you will reject this because you hold to this:
"The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD."
I disagree. We are saved to faith. And that is our major point of disagreement.
Plotner
All of God's children have faith. That is part of the new nature. Their faith may be small and not noticeable but it is faith just the same. If you don't have the new nature you aren't a child of God.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, to clear all your CONFUSION, read this article to detox.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/09/therefore-as-arminians-reject-doctrine.html
Sing F Lau
All of God's children have the grace of faith worked in them by the indwelling Spirit.
This faith must be drawn forth by the ministry of the word. 'Faith cometh by hearing.' Without hearing the gospel, there would be no believing, that faith... worked in the heart is not brought to light. Without believing there would be no justification by the act of believing
There are many ASPECTS of justification - this is what you NEED TO LEARN from the Scriptures. Read the article mentioned above. Read and STUDY IT - at least understand it. And if you need to disagree, then you can disagree INTELLIGENTLY, which is good.
Not every child of God will experienced justification by their faith. But every ELECT are justified by free grace while still a condemned sinner.
You must rightly divide the word of truth.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, do this one thing
Learn the biblical truth concerning:
Your justification by the faith OF - OF - OF Christ
and
Your justification by your faith IN - IN - IN Christ.
It will help you to rid of much confusion on justification.
