Give diligence, for the journey is full of dangers and snares.Apostle Peter exhorts and warns, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall."
Doesn't this mean that these brethren shall 'fall away' if they don't give diligence to make their calling and election sure, and if they fail to do those things mentioned in the previous verses?
Sing F Lau
Is Apostle Peter wasting words and breath warning the brethren against something that CANNOT happen to them? Or is he warning about some real danger?
Isn't Apostle Peter's warning telling us that God's children can fall away and become a reprobate concerning the faith?
I am not saying that God's children can ever fall away from the STATE OF GRACE into which God has effectually called them by His free and sovereign grace.
The Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance insists that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God's children to fall away from the faith. Why? because each and every child of God will persevere in a life of faith and holiness to the end of their life.
"The Calvinistic doctrine, as stated in this chapter of our Confession, is, that God has revealed his gracious purpose to cause every true believer to persevere in his faith and obedience till death." A A Hodge.
Sing F Lau
Apostle Paul addressing the BRETHREN and SAINTS in the church in Corinth:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
Sing F Lau
Apostle Paul warned Timothy against making a shipwreck of his faith! If there was no possibility or danger of Timothy making a shipwreck, then Apostle Paul too is wasting words and breath warning Timothy!
18 ¶ This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
If Timothy fails to war a good warfare, holding faith, and a good conscience, he will ALSO make shipwreck of his faith!
But new school Calvinists scream that it is not possible for God's children to make shipwreck of their faith! That's their presupposition no matter what the Scriptures speak to the contrary.
Dean
Paul told us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling in Php 2:12 then, in the next verse, he reminds us it is God who works this out in our lives. We are reminded often, it is not of ourselves, it is worked out by God. In Rom 7, Paul tells us the things he wants to do, he cannot and the things he does not want to do, he does. It is our responsibility to seek first the kingdom of God but we are flawed and imperfect - it is only God, by His grace, who carries us through to the end. Praise God!
In his exhortation to Timothy, Paul is reminding us to maintain good doctrine. And that should always be our aim - to rightly divide the word of truth. We have seen the effects of bad doctrine on the American church. We have shipwrecked many believers in their walk and many who claim to believe have set their faith upon something that is far from the gospel of Christ.
Keep asking the tough questions. We all need to consider these things and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, brother.
Sing F Lau
Do you see how the truth of this doctrine has been PERVERTED?
The biblical doctrine "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to the state of grace, can never completely fall from that state and thus fail to attain to eternal salvation."
The same doctrine has been perverted into this:
- "teaches very specifically that they who have once been regenerated and effectually called by God to the life of faith and obedience [in contrast to the state of grace] can never completely fall from that life of faith and obedience [in contrast to state] and thus persevere to the end of their life and attain to eternal salvation.”
A man is brought into the state of grace wholly by the free and sovereign grace of God and by the same free and sovereign grace he is kept and preserved in that same state unto eternal salvation. This involves no activity or contribution of man.
And this plain doctrine has been twisted and perverted into something monstrous, such that a man's eternal salvation is now conditioned upon his life of faith and obedience to the end of his earthly life.
Perseverance in the state of grace has been twisted and perverted into perseverance in a life of faith and obedience, and that to the end of his life. Otherwise, kaput and go to hell - so say the new school Calvinists.
And so many confident and self-assured new school Calvinists insist they are believing the truth of Scriptures, and summarized in their confession of faiths! And they are confident they will live that life of faith and obedience to the end of their life, and attain eternal salvation. "Of course, by the sure grace of God, we will persevere to the end" say they.
2Co 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." And many receive him as the angel of light, and embrace his lies as the truth!
Charles
u got that right, brother Sing!
Calvinism is not restricted to whatever A A Hodge says about Calvinism!
Calvinism and Arminianism must be defined by scripture.
Dean
In Romans 1:5, Paul talks about the obedience that comes from faith. And in Romans 6, Paul talks against using grace as a license to sin and affirms again our obedience leads to righteousness. However, we know through Scripture that we are saved by grace and not by anything we do. Obedience is our response to grace but our salvation does not rely upon it. I have come across churches that get this confused but I have not run across Calvinistic churches that do. The Calvinistic churches I am familiar with preach our salvation is solely reliant upon God's sovereign grace. I am sorry to hear you have run across professing Calvinistic churches who preach a doctrine of works.
Sing F Lau
Brother Dean, 'if perseverance in a life of faith and obedience to the end of their life is prerequisite to attain eternal salvation' is equated as a 'doctrine of works' - then all the Calvinistic churches I know in the last 10 years preach just that!
They build their doctrine on the premise that EVERY true believer will persevere in a life of faith and obedience to the end of their life, and if any doesn't he can't possibly be a child of God to begin with!
Is that presupposition biblical?
Dean
There are those who call themselves Christian but are not, even though they may go to church all their lives. Salvation is an outward show but never reached the heart. See the parable of the seed. These will not go to heaven. But the true believer will persevere to the end - by the grace of God, not by works. Is this what you are talking about?
Sing F Lau
"There are those who call themselves Christian but are not, even though they may go to church all their lives."
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That was never a problem in the NT Christianity - easy believism is a modern problem, not a NT problem. And this modern problem is READ INTO the Bible.
And this eisegesis clouds and obfuscates the meaning of a lot of passages, the parable of the sower (?) included.
The parable of the sower is a parable about the kingdom of heaven, describing one aspect of the kingdom of heaven, i.e. the discipleship of those within the kingdom of heaven. It is NOT a parable about persevering in a life of faith and obedience in order to attain eternal salvation. It is about fruitfulness of discipleship conditioned upon how well God's children hear the word of God. Some of God's children are fruitful, some of them because of their negligence and carelessness are fruitless! The parable states that BASIC fact!
It is MOST CERTAINLY not a parable about persevering in a life of faith and obedience to the end of life in order to attain eternal salvation.
Just like when many with knee-jerk reaction read the problem of mixed-marriage into Gen 6!
Please give me one statement in the Bible that eternal salvation is conditioned upon a life of perseverance in faith and obedience to the end. I really want to know a passage that speaks to this effect.
Dean
Somehow, you seem to have the impression I was arguing against you. On some items, I was affirming with additional Scripture and some items clarifying. However, although I agree with you the parable of the sower has nothing to do with perseverance, it does demonstrate that those who do not persevere were never saved. I disagree the parable is about discipleship; I believe it is about those who are saved and those who are not - and some who are not, may think they are.
Charles
Sing, do you include 'hard believism' in that as well. easy believism represented by Charles Ryrie is just as wrong as 'hard believism' represented by John MacArthur (lordship salvation)
Sing F Lau
Charles, it is the first time I heard of hard believism. What does it mean?
Charles
There is a conflict between MacArthur and Ryrie, Ryrie holds to 'easy believism' and MacArthur insist on a 'genuine saving faith'. It is called the Lordship salvation controversary -
IMO both are equally wrong in that believing does not contribute to regeneration at all. Ryrie certainly believes that it does but MacA claims to be a 5 point calvinist but insist on a saving faith with perseverance.
Sing F Lau
Dean, no, I don't take the exchanges as arguing against me. I take it as a process to learn the truth of the Scriptures. So, disagreement is ALWAYS GOOD - it will ALWAYS drive me closer to the Scriptures.
I take that parable as one on discipleship. The same truth of the parable is repeated in the epistles. If God's children are careless and negligent, they shall be BARREN and UNFRUITFUL.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ....
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
The BARRENNESS and UNFRUITFULNESS that these BRETHREN were warned against is not something hypothetical.
They are real dangers that will happen to these CHILDREN OF GOD under certain conditions.
These CHILDREN OF GOD will MOST CERTAINLY fall away if they don't do those things stated. They WILL NOT, and CAN NEVER fall away from the state of grace that God has called them into. But they will fall away from the faith, i.e. making shipwreck of their faith!
Many presuppose that this CANNOT happen to children of God, and then logically and consistently conclude that if any one does not persevere in a life of faith and obedience to the end of their life WERE NEVER a child of God to begin with.
All I can say is that such NOTION, which I used to adhere to and defended vigorously, SIMPLY does not conform to Scriptures, even though it is a popular sentiment of the new school Calvinists as well as the Arminians!
Sing F Lau
IMO both are equally wrong in that believing does not contribute to regeneration at all. Ryrie certainly believes that it does but MacA claims to be a 5 point calvinist but insist on a saving faith with perseverance.
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In my opinion, and it is just that, one is on the left ditch and the other on the right ditch of the gospel highway! Both are equally wrong!
'Saving faith' is a fruit of the eternal salvation bestowed freely by God's grace. It's characteristic is that it believes and rests in Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.
Not all who have saving faith will persevere in a life of faith and holiness to the end of their earthly life. Such FABLE is not found in the Scriptures. If my understanding is wrong, then show me the truth!
Dean
Well, I still do not see how you get discipleship as the basis of the parable of the seed. Satan plucks the truth from some and some are crushed by the cares of this world, etc. However, as you say, I do believe a child of God can never fall from the state of grace. Christ said we cannot judge the heart (we can judge fruit) and it is on that premise where it is impossible for us to tell the difference between those who were never saved and those who have shipwrecked their faith. Only God knows.
Sing F Lau
"Christ said we cannot judge the heart (we can judge fruit)..."
you probably refer to that passage in Mt 7
15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them b...y their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Please note the context! You shall know whether a man is a false prophet or not by his teaching. There is no subjectivity in doctrines. If they bear grapes, i.e. if they preach sound doctrines, go to them and gather the nourishing grapes!
A preacher who is a true CHILD OF GOD, because of carelessness and negligence and unbelief, can spout forth thorns and thistles! And they have many devoted followers too, among whom are God's true children, though misguided too.
It is of course much easier to write them off - that they were never God's children to begin with!
