The wind bloweth where it listeth,and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
SO IS EVERY ONE -
therefore no exception.
Note that please!
Taylor
BUT GOD, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— Eph 2:4-5 (ESV)
Beckett
These are the words that many miss when they are reading the scripture. BUT God..............Amen!
Taylor
But God...little words mean a lot...
Sing F Lau
Did God make alive His elect, who were dead in their trespasses and sins, with the help of preachers or not?
Berge
@ Andrew Amen.
@ Sing preachers are a means by which God proclaims His word. God doesn't need anybody's help
Sing F Lau
@Jac, I doubt you have understood my question... because you have not answered my question.
Berge
Ya might want to rephrase the question then since I did answer it as it stands
Beckett
@ Sing - does God make alive (regenerate) a baby with the help of a preacher?
Ye must be born again! He can and does use preachers to deliver the WORD but He doesn't have to use them. He is "able to raise up of these stone, children unto Abraham"
Taylor
No...but Sing is adamant God elects and saves people who He never gives belief.
In other words, there are a bunch of regenerate people walking around who will never believe in Christ.
Berge
Ummm huh?!
Taylor
So, if what Sing says is true, God does not honour evangelism. Rather, scripture teaches this:
We preach Christ to the sinner (Our part)
The Spirit brings the sinner to Christ (God's part)
Berge
doesn't hold up to scripture or logic for that matter
Taylor
Sing's theology has 2 salvations. One is free and sovereign grace. the other one is belief and fruits of the Spirit. The free and sovereign saves us eternally, the belief and fruits of the Spirit save us temporally. But belief is not a result of regeneration all the time, so he says.
Thus, the obvious result is people walking around not knowing Christ, possibly even hating Christ, who are regenerate.
Sing F Lau
Andrew, let me say this before I retire.
You have just misrepresented me. I am disappointed that you have not represented me correctly. Otherwise, show proof that I have ever said what you have stated.
In discussion, it is of utmost importance to represent the view of others correctly. If one is not able to do that, he should hold his peace. Do you agree?
I think I have understood your belief: God uses the preaching of the word in the work of regeneration His elect who were dead in trespasses and sins. Now, if I have not understood it properly, state it so that I may know exactly what you believe.
I ask a precise question: Did God make alive His elect who are dead in their trespasses with the help of preachers or not?
The question is not, Does God use preachers to preach His word?
May the Lord bless you a blessed Lord's day.
Hunt
Well, this is interesting. Andrew, the view that you say is Sing's and Sing says is not, is that view common to any particular denomination within Christianity? I've not heard of it before, although there is a vague similarity to Vatican II. I'm just curious.
Beckett
@ Sing, can I be a part of this conversation? My answer to the specific question is NO! John 3:8 But I understand you are asking Andrew!
Taylor
@Sing - I'm not trying to! The other day I asked you something like: Are there regenerate people who do not believe? And you answered: yes.
Sing F Lau
Hello, I am back. The morning service at the worship was good this morning.
@Sister Eileen, please join in. We are both guests of our host Andrew. I am a student of God's word... and I am here to learn... and I mostly ask question to learn.
Thanks for John 3:8. Few notice the significance of that passage, and the implication of these few words, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT." No exception is permitted by these words.
Thank you for answering my question that Andrew was avoiding. I do ask questions to either confirm the truth or debunk the falsehood of a view held.
Andrew has insisted all the way this: God uses the preaching of the word in the work of regeneration His elect who were dead in trespasses and sins. And EVERY elect will hear and believe the gospel and experience repentance.
I don't want to repeat things here: the previous exchanges between Andrew and I are archived here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/10/gospels-and-fables.html
You will read what was Andrew's questions there... and what I replied and reasoned with him.
Beckett
I will take the time this week to read through the exchange. I used the example of an elect infant who dies, who is regenerated, has never heard the preaching of the Word BUT who still KNOWS Christ as we do by the Spirit! That is regeneration to me! I have to be given ears to hear the Gospel before I ever hear it by the gift of faith!
Sing F Lau
@Eileen. You are perfectly correct. But Andrew's idea logically and necessarily excludes anything like that, if I have understood him correctly. He insists that every elect will hear and believe the gospel, therefore, those incapable of hearing or without the opportunity to hear cannot possibly be among the elect of God.
Given those words in the declaration from the very lips of Christ, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT" - there is no room for exception... either everyone is born of the Spirit of God through the preaching of the gospel, or every one of God's elect is born of the Spirit directly and immediately WITHOUT the preaching of the gospel.
There isn't a third choice, really. Of the two choices, only one is correct. To me, it is simple enough from what is said in John 3.
But there are always sincere folks like Andrew, who insisted that EVERY elect will hear the gospel, believe it and experience repentance. Any who do not cannot be an elect.
That's the gist of the exchanges.
Sing F Lau
Taylor@ So, if what Sing says is true, God does not honor evangelism. Rather, scripture teaches this:
We preach Christ to the sinner (Our part)
The Spirit brings the sinner to Christ (God's part)
===========
...Andrew, you must be tired and exhausted when you write those words - 26 hrs without sleep?
In one sense you are perfect right.
NOT ONLY God does not honor your evangelism, God DOES NOT EVEN NEED your evangelism in His work regeneration. In fact, he sees you as an usurper if you insist that He needs your evangelism to regenerate His elect. If God needs your evangelism in order to regenerate His elect, He would be impotent to regenerate many of His elect of "ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" because the gospel was never brought to them by any preachers! UNLESS of course, you retort that God Himself is the Evangelist.
Having said that, please remember that it is God Himself, through His Son Jesus Christ who ordained evangelism. In the apostolic church, He gave some evangelists (Eph 4:11). Later on, pastors and teachers are to do the work of an evangelist (2Tim 4:5). The gospel ministry is ordained by God himself. So it must be very important, REPEAT very important!
But very important for what? You insist very important because without it there would be no regeneration of the elect who are dead in trespasses and sins!
The Scriptures say it is very important because without there would be NO CONVERSION of God's children to the gospel truth!
The gospel ministry is for the CONVERSION of God's children (elect that God Himself has regenerated without the preachers' help)... to bring them to know the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace. The gospel ministry is REMOTELY related to the regeneration of God's elect.
I have never heard of a midwife claiming that she played any role in the conception of the lives she helped deliver. But I have heard many idiotic preachers and their followers who kept insisting that they played a vital role in the regeneration of God's elect. Mid-wives being women are far wiser and saner than woolly male preachers
Evangelism is preaching, heralding and proclaiming the good news of what God HAS DONE through His Son and applied by His Spirit to save His people. Biblical preaching has a very specific purpose and particular audience. The specific purpose is CONVERSION, the particular audience intended are God's children, those elect that God has regenerated.
The Apostles knew it. He declared concerning his ministry, "Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" 2Ti 2:10. 'FOR THE ELECT'S SAKES!'
God regenerates His elect all by Himself, WITHOUT man's help in any way. The wind blows WITHOUT the farmer's help in any way. EVEN SO, the Spirit in the new birth. But of course, there are silly farmers who believe that the wind needs their presence in order to blow! God said of His children in this wise, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Much could be said... but your mind is all made up...
Taylor
So, do you evangelize?
"The gospel ministry is for the CONVERSION of God's children"
I agree Sing...
Beckett
Many don't like to separate regeneration and conversion and therein lies the basic problem. For the majority of the elect, this life involves conversion, for some, it does not! Nevertheless, the inheritance is the same for all. Going to be gone for the day.........blessings to you both!
Taylor
And I also would say that I heartily agree that God does not need evangelism TO save...I am simply arguing that the Spirit regenerates God's elect TO believe the message.
Why does someone believe the Gospel? Because they are elect. Why does ...someone believe the Gospel? Because God regenerates them TO believe the Gospel.
But this in no way means that the elect sinner has been regenerate since their election. Regeneration happens temporally. When we are regenerate, we believe. God ensures that and brings to that place.
Taylor
And I do agree that regeneration and conversion aren't the same thing. I'm not arguing that conversion = regeneration. I'm arguing that regeneration always results in conversion. Although conversion cannot result in regeneration. Regeneration must come first.
Likewise, many conversions are made by people that are not regenerate. (There are professing believers who are unsaved)
Taylor
And I think another issue you're hitting upon here is evangelism vs. discipleship...which of course are not the same, but relate in a similar way to what we are discussing here.
Beckett Guess I'm not sure what you mean by professing believers who are unsaved. They wouldn't be believers then right and it wouldn't be conversion?
Taylor
Simply put, is everyone who believes Christ is God saved? Are Prosperity Gospel followers? Obviously, we can not know for sure with any given individual. But on the flip side, we are to know them by their fruits, and the false Gospel they a...re presenting is bad fruit.
Yes, it would be a false conversion...not a real one.
Sing F Lau
Taylor@ So, do you evangelize?
I am tempted to say, "Come and see!"
But then I don't want to pretend that I know what you mean?
So, please explain what you mean by evangelize? Is it going around presenting Jesus as a beggar knocking on people's heart to let Him in?
Sing F Lau
Taylor@ "And I also would say that I heartily agree that God does not need evangelism TO save...I am simply arguing that the Spirit regenerates God's elect TO believe the message."
So, you have abandoned gospel regeneration then? That's what I thought you were insisting all along!
Taylor@ "Why does someone believe the Gospel? Because they are elect. Why does someone believe the Gospel? Because God regenerates them TO believe the Gospel."
Someone believes the gospel because he is a child of God, regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit who works the grace of faith in him - thus ENABLING him to believe. God regenerates His elect unto eternal life, thus ENABLING them to believe. But in order for them to believe there must be preaching of the gospel... by human means.
Taylor@ "But this in no way means that the elect sinner has been regenerate since their election. Regeneration happens temporally. When we are regenerate, we believe. God ensures that and brings to that place."
Whoever said regeneration has been since the election? Born AGAIN can only happen after we have a personal being!
No, when we are regenerated, we are ENABLED TO BELIEVE, the indwelling Spirit works the grace of faith within the regenerated.
We can only believe when the gospel is preached to us. "Faith cometh by hearing!"
The gospel preaching is the means APPOINTED by God to draw out the faith worked within a child of God. This DOES NOT imply that every regenerate elect will hear the gospel. But you INSIST every child of God does... because you seem to have the idea that hearing and believing the gospel is NECESSARY to get into heaven!
FINALLY, you are still insisting the same: i.e. every regenerate elect will hear and believe the gospel. Therefore, any who have no opportunity to hear or are unable to hear are among the non-elect.
Your words "When we are regenerate, we believe. God ensures that and brings to that place" amounts to just that.
