A house, but a reprobate in the fitness for dwellingSing F Lau
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" September 6 at 12:29pm ·
Sing F Lau
Apostle Paul is addressing BRETHREN and SAINTS...
And these Corinthian BRETHREN and SAINTS were behaving very unbecomingly - having been misguided and deceived by some 'super apostles' and were disaffected towards Apostle Paul, and were doubting his office and his gospel.
These BRETHREN and SAINTS were acting unbecoming of the gospel - that Apostle Paul asked them to examine themselves, whether they be IN THE FAITH.
God's children may behave and conduct themselves in such an unbecoming way that they are NOT in the faith!
Their STATUS as BRETHREN and SAINTS is not being questioned! Their unbecoming conduct and spirit are they are reprobates in their conduct and spirit towards Apostle Paul.
Even Apostle Paul could be a CASTAWAY, a reprobate concerning the faith if he is not careful. "1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Sing F Lau
But so many take this passage as Apostle Paul's admonishing the Corinthians to examine whether they are reprobates in the context of divine election to eternal life!!!
Cattmule
Interesting view! But if there was no question of their status as brethren and Saints
Why then does it say to examine "whether ye be IN the faith".?
Sing F Lau
Quite simple, sir...
Make the distinction between being in the STATE OF GRACE, and being IN THE FAITH. [An illustration: a man in the state of life may not be in the state of health.]
God's children, who are already in THE STATE OF GRACE, need to be brought INTO the faith first through the gospel ministry... and by their obedience STAYS and REMAINS in the faith.
Their carelessness and disobedience will reverse that. Unbelief, and God's children are so capable of that, cause them to cease to be IN THE FAITH. BUT nothing will cause them to cease to be in the STATE OF GRACE - for that is wholly, solely, completely by the grace of God, and it is immutable and eternal!
You know, so many American citizens are disgustingly un-American! The same happens among God's children, and this explains the need for the question, "whether ye be IN the faith?"
Chapin
If we could just remember that the Scriptures were written for the Lord's children and not for the unregenerate perhaps, our thinking would tend to fall into place.
Deal
Amen Bro Jerry.
Cattmule
"Make the distinction between being in the STATE OF GRACE, and being IN THE FAITH."
Thanks, you are at least clear. I thought you would say something along those lines.
A man may profess faith and not be in a state of Grace.
However, I see the terms "in Christ", "in the Faith" as describing the same kind of people.
So I see Paul's call to the carnal Corinthians to examine themselves to see "whether they be in the faith" in the first place!
God's children, once they believe, can never "cease" being in the faith! Why?, because they are "kept by the power of God through faith" That faith is the "faith of God's elect." It is a faith that is "obtained through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. This faith will suffer assault but will "overcome the world"...."and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith"
~Regards.
Cattmule
The scriptures "are profitable" that the man of God may be throughly furnish unto every good work."
But Jerry, If your statement is correct then I guess Isiah didn't know that when he penned...
"Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteo...us man his thoughts, and let him return unto the Lord and He will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon."
Oh, but wait, the "wicked" and "unrighteous" spoken of there are actually regenerate and reconciled children of God, right?
Sing F Lau
MC@ A man may profess faith and not be in a state of Grace.
However, I see the terms "in Christ", "in the Faith" as describing the same kind of people.
================
There is probably a confusion in both statement.
A man is effectually called into a state of grace and salvation is UNITED to Christ, therefore is in Christ. There is nothing a man can do to bring himself to be in the state of grace or to be in Christ. That is entirely divine work alone, and man is entirely passive. Only when God HAS effectually called an elect and united him to Christ, a man is ENABLED to do something to be IN THE FAITH.
A man is in Christ by the free and sovereign work of God. And this work is complete and immutable.
A man is in the faith through the gospel ministry by his believing and obedience to the gospel. He does something right to be in the faith. He does something wrong, and he is NOT in the faith.
Apostle Paul who called the Corinthian to examine themselves whether they be in the faith said these words to the same people, " Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
Cattmule
"For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our FAITH." 1 Jn 5:4
"Who are KEPT by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter... 1:5
"But I have prayed for thee that thy FAITH FAIL NOT." Luke 22:32
One who is "in Grace" can NEVER "cease to be in the faith".
Sing
"But I have prayed for thee that thy FAITH FAIL NOT." Luke 22:32
========
Apostle Peter's faith did fail... and if Christ had not prayed for the recovery of his faith, he would have become a cast away concerning his faith. Those are historical facts.
Why pray against something from happening if there is no possibility of that ever happening?
Similarly, why warn against something happening if there is no possibly of that danger to actually happening?
It is quite simple to my simple mind.
It takes me NOTHING to be in the STATE OF GRACE. It is all by the free and sovereign grace of God. And there is nothing I can un-do what God has done for me. I am not involved in doing it, and I won't be involved in its un-doing.
It takes me, a child of God by His free and sovereign grace, a great deal to come into the faith, and remain in the faith. It is by my ACTIVE RESPONSES to God's will to enter into the faith, and to remain in the faith. By my carelessness and negligent, I may just undo that.
The Corinthians were already in the STATE OF GRACE before Apostle Paul's faithful ministry brought them into the faith of the gospel. Then some 'super apostles' came to the church in Corinth and preached another Jesus and another gospel as well as caricatured Apostle Paul and his gospel. Through this, the SAINTS and BRETHREN in Corinth were deceived and misled... prompting Apostle Paul to exhort them to examine whether they are STILL in the faith. They give all appearance that they are NO LONGER because of their doubt against Paul's apostleship and his gospel.
"One who is "in Grace" can NEVER "cease to be in the faith" - this is fiction at best; at worst, it is clearly anti-scriptural.
Just being honest. Keep talking
Deal
The words of a friend:
Dear Kindred IN Christ,
Thurs. Sept. 9, 2010
THE TRUTH IS ---
All men have NOT faith, and Paul told the Church of Thessalonica to pray that his ministry be DELIVERED FROM those “faithless” - 2nd Thess. 3:1-2. If the Gospel was the means to Eternal Life, then he has declared these folks are not worthy or capable of receiving such. Yet, we
know that the Gospel is preached to the FAITHFUL as an instrument of KNOWLEDGE OF who did save them Eternally - Covenantly, Legally and Vitally. Hulan Bass
Sing
Please say hello to Elder Hulan Bass. He is too enigmatic for too many people. Very few understand pb jargons!
Cattmule
The Lord Jesus declared ..."I have prayed...THAT THY FAITH FAIL NOT"
But Sing F Lau says "Peter's faith did fail." Do you not realise what you just stated?
I must believe the words of Christ!
Sing
I read that Peter denied Christ, with swearing and cursing... He forsook Christ and went back to his life... UNTIL Christ restored him. There were many like Peter who were not restored... but made a complete shipwreck of their faith.
Sing
"ALL MEN have not faith..." Very many believe "ALL MEN" included those dead in trespasses and sins, who obviously have not faith... but that is a foolish idea. It makes Paul to say something so obvious, and also as though he expects faith from such.
'ALL MEN" obviously refers specifically to the children of God, and NOT all of them are believing. This is a hard saying. It is so much easier to say the unbelieving are dead in trespasses and sins.
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching ELECTION, they are beloved for the father's sake."
How many Christians there are today who are unbelieving concerning THE GOSPEL once delivered to the saints.
Cattmule
Wow! I'll have to stay with: "For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our FAITH." 1 Jn 5:4
"Who are KEPT by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed... in the last time." 1 Peter... 1:5
"But I have prayed for thee that thy FAITH FAIL NOT." Luke 22:32
One who is "in Grace" can NEVER "cease to be in the faith".
Sing
If this notion - One who is "in Grace" can NEVER "cease to be in the faith" - is true, then all those warnings to the BRETHREN and SAINTS (those brought into the state of grace by God's free grace are meaningless and redundant.
Or may be the apostles who issued those warnings didn't know such modern notions. Otherwise, the warnings sound foolish and redundant!
Cattmule
The warnings and exhortations of scripture to the saints are given to spur them to continue as they have begun, 'As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk ye in Him.'
We need such warnings and exhortations because of opposition from ...within and without. And also because, as you said above "God's children are so capable of UNBELIEF"
Now, although all too capable of unbelief we are not then to conclude that we can cease to be in the faith, FAITH ISN'T JUST ACTS BUT IS A STATE.
When God gives true faith, it CAN NEVER BE FATALLY AND FINALLY EXTINGUISHED IN THIS LIFE. True faith will always be opposed, but will never be fatally and finally overcome.
To contend otherwise is to deny the final perseverance of the saints.
"BUT WE ARE NOT OF THEM THAT DRAW BACK, BUT OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE UNTO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL"
Thanks for your time, Pastor Sing.
Sing
Warnings against the real danger of falling from the faith are very different from exhortations to continue walking in the faith.
The former presupposes the real danger of God's children falling away. To say otherwise is to make the warnings redundant and foolish, and turning them into lies.
The latter presupposes that the real danger can be avoided with watchfulness and diligence.
Both are the teaching of Scriptures. You choose to believe the latter. That's your liberty!
And there are plain facts that some of God's children have made shipwreck of their faith some would rather judge that such do not have faith, to begin with because of the presupposition that God's children cannot make a shipwreck of their faith.
Cattmule
How then, in light of your view do you interpret:
"For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our FAITH." 1 Jn 5:4 ??
"Who are KEPT by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed... in the last time." 1 Peter... 1:5 ??
Sing F Lau
Thought through such rhetorical questions... they arise out of confusion. Those passages are consistent with the truth that every child of God - born of God - is kept and preserved in the state of grace, THROUGH the FAITHfulness of Jesus Christ.
The state of grace is a direct result of regeneration. Regeneration brings an elect into the state of grace. Regeneration is solely the divine act... remotely connected with the perseverance of those regenerated!
The SOUND of "our faith" has distracted you... you miss its SENSE. "Our FAITH" is that faith of the elect worked in each one by the Holy Spirit at effectual calling. It is "our FAITH" in the sense that it belongs to us, our possession; not our act of believing or faith.
It is "our faith" NOT in the sense that we persevere in a life of believing and obeying.
You insist on the latter; you get the SOUND but miss the SENSE.
Your being in the state of grace is kept by the power of God... not your act of persevering in the believing and obeying to the end of your life.
Your false presupposition causes you to reject what is plainly stated in the Scriptures. God's children do suffer destruction in this life... they make a shipwreck of their faith... they fell out of the faith because of negligence and carelessness.
I have said enough. I will let you have the last word.
I will archive the exchanges and leave it on the blog for my church members to read, You will appear as "Catt-Mule".
Thank you for the discussion.
There are not just religious niceties. They are inspired truth. There are BRETHREN, children of God. A child of God may not be in the faith by their unbelief and unbecoming conduct.
